Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[LinMM]

I’m assuming this is why Ofsted changed their inspection practices though ….as they suspected this was happening …hence the only 24 hour notice…in order to keep schools on their toes as it were. 

[alison]

I can imagine that there's a certain expectation that students will be "on-message" during Ofsted inspections, in the same way as it was mentioned above that you shouldn't necessarily imagine that what you seen on an official open day is a completely accurate reflection.  If asked, they can easily say "Oh we have such-and-such a policy which states that ... and we have weekly ...".  I wonder what questions Ofsted inspectors ask, and whether they would get a different impression if they asked different, or more penetrating, questions?

[Neverdancedjustamum]

3 minutes ago, alison said:

I can imagine that there's a certain expectation that students will be "on-message" during Ofsted inspections, in the same way as it was mentioned above that you shouldn't necessarily imagine that what you seen on an official open day is a completely accurate reflection.  If asked, they can easily say "Oh we have such-and-such a policy which states that ... and we have weekly ...".  I wonder what questions Ofsted inspectors ask, and whether they would get a different impression if they asked different, or more penetrating, questions?

Ofted just updated their School Inspection Handbook last month. Not sure it will go into the kind of questions they might ask but I did wonder how they pick which staff and students they will speak to. I remember for an inspection I observed in the past (not Ofsted but also one that involves educational settings), the education provider can pick the students they would put in front of the inspection panel. I remember distinctly that the provider specifically picked certain students (you can imagine the type) and it wasn’t a random process at all. The students were also briefed on what they might get asked.

[alison]

And talking about body shape, last week I was struck by how good it was to see a range of more "natural" body shapes with the Alvin Ailey company.  Obviously, they aren't primarily ballet dancers, but still ...

[Pas de Quatre]

There was an unannounced Ofsted inspection a few years ago at Tring. It was in response to many parental complaints. The then Director of Dance was suspended and officially left soon after. This was after years of pupils and parents being unhappy with the school and various allegations of an undesirable culture of favouritism, negativity eating disorders etc.

[Millicent]

When my DC's (non-vocational) school had an Ofsted inspection all of the parents were sent a questionnaire to fill in anonymously. This was a couple of years ago, I don't know if anything has changed, but that seems a good way to get a realistic view of what is actually going on in practice.

 

I agree that policies can be undermined by an organisation's actual attitudes. I once worked for a company that won awards for its support of women and flexible working. My friend came back from maternity leave asking to work from home every other Friday and only if she had no meetings that day. She was laughed out of HR. They definitely didn't practice what they preached.

[Ruby Foo]

58 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

Whilst tending to be pretty slim and muscular due to the demands of their chosen careers, ladies in the top UK ballet companies, at least,  are certainly not all “stick-thin”, skeletal or flat-chested etc. Some take time out to have babies and then return to the stage.  When dancing they need to be very  careful of nutrition, which means eating enough of the correct foods, not just eating as little as possible because that would mean lacking sufficient strength and energy to perform.   Some students may need to lose a bit of weight; others may need to improve their diet or increase  their intake of some foods-  either way  this should be explained sensitively;  indeed the schools have specialist nutritionists for this.  This is the RBS's very detailed Nutrition Policy: https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Nutrition-Policy.pdf

which includes for example: “It is known that, along with many athletes, dancers are at greater risk of developing eating disorders and associated medical problems than the general population. Body composition is also an important component of physical fitness, vital in enabling dancers to train and reach their true potential. Dancers who fall above or below the recommended norms may be putting their health at risk as well as limiting their career”.

And: “A person with an eating disorder commonly has fears about being ‘fat’ and fears about their shape: the mind of an anorexic shows them as ‘fat’ when they look in the mirror when others see them as a virtual skeleton. They usually believe that the more weight they lose the closer they come to being worthwhile. If challenged, they deny that they have a problem and refuse to believe they are dangerously thin. They are unable to accept rational argument around their eating habits and weight”.

“Any single symptom could have an explanation, but recurring patterns are a cause for concern. Members of staff should always report concerns to the Director or the Ballet Principal. Individual members of staff should not discuss questions of weight, diet or medication with students, nor should there be general discussion of any issues related to this protocol”.

So I don’t understand the reports of some teachers  suggesting, or implying, in their remarks to students,  that excessive weight loss is the way certain students will improve as dancers, or be able to have a ballet career, such that those students feel they must keep on losing weight to a dangerous and  unacceptable  extent. Any such remark goes entirely against all that is set out in the above Policy, and the obvious facts in terms of the actual body shapes of dancers who do make it professionally.  It is unfortunate, therefore, that  the programme did not include any interviews with teachers or school nutritionists in response or in further explanation. The schools (at least as reported) only seem to have put out what came across as fairly generalised  and bland statements, without  being able (understandably I suppose, especially with a legal case pending) to respond to the various individual  cases.

However the RBS had an Ofsted report in 2014 https://files.ofsted.gov.uk/v1/file/2433869

The identified  concern at that time was proper checking and monitoring of staff recruitment and vetting, which was falling short. (This appears to have been addressed by 2016 according to the published report from a later unannounced visit  by the Independent Schools Inspectorate). Otherwise the report appears positive, and in terms of the issues most immediately relevant to the current discussion, Ofsted reported for example:

“The school’s behaviour policy is implemented consistently and fairly. All students behave impeccably. Behaviour and relationships between students and with staff are excellent. Case studies of the most vulnerable students show the school’s sensitive yet robust approach to students’ emotional needs. Weekly network meetings between health professionals and staff carefully coordinate agreed support and care for identified students”.

“An effective anti-bullying policy is in place. Awareness of bullying in all its forms is a high priority through the curriculum, students’ weekly house meetings and the student council. The new leadership team ensure that, in this high-intensity training environment, staff are well briefed about teaching classes designed to really push students yet maintain a balance of criticism and support. Students say teachers rightly expect and insist on the highest standards of performance and commitment, as befits a school of this nature. However students also feel well supported and respected. No bullying by staff was reported to inspectors”.

More up to date (Oct 2022) is the following very positive report from the Independent Schools Inspectorate, a link to which can be found here: https://www.isi.net/school/the-royal-ballet-school-7171

This includes for example:

“Pupils exhibit a very strong awareness of the importance of physical and mental wellbeing. They describe the importance of balancing rigorous physical demands, being physically strong and mentally agile, with the need for good nutritional balance. They know the actions they must take to be healthy, as well as decisions that may cause them harm. Pupils appreciate the support they receive on diet and nutrition, mental health, dealing with injuries and rehabilitation through regular weekly meetings with a specialist team of health professionals….”.

“An overwhelming majority of parents and pupils who responded to the questionnaire  conveyed the view that the school is a safe place to be and that is safeguards the children effectively”.

Similarly Elmhurst had an “outstanding” Ofsted report in 2015: https://files.ofsted.gov.uk/v1/file/2527673 

and the ISI gave them an excellent report in  February2022     https://www.elmhurstballetschool.org/media/downloads/elmhursteqiisireportfebruary2022.pdf

In the effective absence in the programme, of “the other side of the story” in the sort of detail  suggested by these inspection reports, I am wondering how balanced the BBC have been here.

I am very interested to read this report and to contrast it with my dd’s experience. I am also curious to understand how this could possibly satisfy some as to being the whole truth.
My dc was at one of the 2 schools discussed on the program until last year.

My DC was a diligent, thoughtful and compliant student. Reports from the school suggest as much. Under no circumstances would my dc have EVER reported bullying, abuse or any negative behaviour from teachers, the houseparents or the school in general whether it was completely confidential or not. The clue is in the ‘all students behave impeccably’. Of course they do, because each and everyone would do ANYTHING to remain in the school, to go to upper school and to be accepted to the Company. And I do mean ANYTHING, such is their mindset. In the early days they may not even have been aware of some of the very subtle abuse taking place such is the nature of a’Ballet class’

There is much in the report that my dc would uphold as being practiced such as the very positive messages about nutrition, physical health and well being. Those messages certainly got through to my dc and we applaud those messages which my dc found extremely helpful throughout her training.

However, this is where one has to be there to understand how complex the system is and how a report, no matter it’s good intentions, will not give a true picture.

We moved house twice so my dc would be able to be a day girl at both vocational schools she attended. This was done to safeguard her physical and mental health. She would be able to come straight home and communicate how her day had been and we would be able to listen, provide healthy nutrition and home comfort. If there were any issues we vowed to deal with them immediately. During lockdown, my dc was made to board at WL.  This coincided with her application and audition to Upper School something she wanted more than anything in the world. In her mind she needed to do 3 things - be technically perfect and strong, be artistically beautiful and be physically suitable. She was already physically ( in terms of proportions) perfect. But she was not stupid. She saw her friends be assessed out in yr 9 and drew conclusions from that and from those who had been accepted for upper school previously. In her mindset she was not good enough. She worked herself to the bone… literally. I did not see her. She was boarding now at school and unable to come home. When I finally saw her I was horrified. She had lost a massive amount of weight in such a short time. I called the school. They had not noticed despite seeing her in leotard and tights every day. The nurse was very concerned. My dd did not have a period after this for nearly 2 years. They immediately told her she must sit out of dance in front of her whole class. It was humiliating for her. They did not call me or tell me what the situation was or how we were going to deal with it. There was absolutely no communication whatsoever. I had to call them. The insensitivity was astounding and added to the mental stress she obviously already felt. 
My dc would not want me to tell you this or to report any negative behaviour by the school but I’m going ahead to beg you how to look beyond a report.

I would also query the statement ‘behaviour and relationships between pupils and with staff are excellent’

From our experience, students are very quiet and careful to always do the right thing because that is the code they understand. The AD is a distant and revered figure who appears very little, if at all, and there is certainly no opportunity to build a relationship with them.

 

[capybara]

I wish that inspection practices were more like they were in pre-Ofsted days.

Each HMI (in Wales where I can speak from personal experience) had a number of schools and/or colleges assigned to him/her as the designated Pastoral Inspector. The role involved supporting institutions to effect improvements, especially in the wake of an inspection but, also, calling in regularly virtually unannounced to look at such aspects of provision as the particular HMI saw fit.

The approach I adopted frequently, on both pastoral and formal inspection visits, was 'pupil pursuit' - i.e. shadowing an individual or group chosen by me (and of course agreed by them) through their day.  This provided an opportunity to talk informally with students and experience things in and out of the classroom which would normally be out of range to an HMI. It certainly uncovered many issues of which the institutions themselves were often unaware - a number of them serious and very concerning, and not unlike those being discussed here.

If there was one thing which 'surprised' staff the most, because they were each doing their own 'best', it was the cumulative effect on individuals resulting from how one teacher after another would relate to them. I only ever saw that happening for one day but imagine how it must feel to be on the receiving end of (e.g.) negativity lesson after lesson, day after day after day...

Do ballet school ADs sit in on classes, I wonder, because it's certainly possible to get a 'feel' for 'how things are' even when everyone knows they are being watched.

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by capybara

[LinMM]

Thankyou for sharing your moving post Ruby Foo. It seems capybara has also touched on something you said in your post. 
“The AD is a distant and revered figure who appears very little, if at all…” 

It really should be imperative that AD’s/Headteachers etc know their own pupils and what is going on in the schools they are supposed to be leading. 
In my experience as a teacher over 40 years ( on and off) that the best schools to work in were where the Heads were very hands on and approachable. 
The schools where Heads shut themselves away in their rooms delegated a lot of business to often very overworked Deputy Heads and avoided parents like the plague were nearly always the ones which eventually got into difficulties. 
Of course a school is mostly a team effort but the leader of that team can be oh so very important in how everyone pulls together or not as it were. 
Good Heads are worth their weight in gold but it seems at least a passing interest in the pupils and teachers in their school is of the essence. 

[Kat09]

22 hours ago, Lindsay said:

This is absolutely it.  The schools are linked to the companies who ARE the dream.  And for most they are also boarding school.  Also, at grammar schools you don't spend hours every day with your growing and changing body dressed in a leotard and tights in front of mirrors, teachers and all of your peers........

Exactly this - I was told by my daughters form teacher that “your daughter must hate to look at herself in the mirror everyday”  perhaps the worst day of my life!! For clarity this was not at Elmhurst or RBS

Edited September 12, 2023 by Kat09
Spelling & clarification

[Jewel]

It works both ways too.  Sometimes you can put up with these things if you know there is an involved, caring head who takes your complaints and issues seriously.

 

But what happens when you get an involved head who is also a major part of the problem?

[taxi4ballet]

6 hours ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

With all due respect, it is very true. And I speak not from having watched the documentary (I still haven't) but from knowing how it affected my daughter during her time in vocational training. And from knowing what others have gone through as well, although obviously I can't speak for them. They are afraid to speak up because they are scared it will make matters worse.

 

[Kerfuffle]

22 minutes ago, Kat09 said:

Exactly this - I was told by my daughters form teacher that “your daughter must hate to look at herself in the mirror everyday”  perhaps the worst day of my life!! For clarity this was not at Elmhurst or RBS

What a monstrous thing to say to a parent about a young dancer! It makes me wonder what kind of experience this teacher had had themselves to say such a hateful thing. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[StephanieM]

As a parent with a child whose dream is to be a ballerina I follow this forum (along with others) and anything else I can find to educate myself as much as possible about the industry. It is my job as a parent to make sure that what I do is in the best interests of my child. I know my daughter best which means that I (and not a school or teacher) have a better idea of how much dedication, drive and resilience she has and whether it may be enough to enter an elite field. I also have the best idea of her mental and emotional maturity. I am also best placed to asses how her body will (more than likely) develop during puberty based on that of my family and my husbands family. Family genes! Parents can definitely get a better idea of likely outcomes than a school or teacher ever could at an audition. 

 

Railing against the institutions and

saying “but things should be different” changes nothing. This will be an unpopular opinion but it needs to be said - it all ultimately starts and ends with the parents. It is the job of the parents to manage a child’s expectations as to what is realistic and achievable for that child. It seems in far too many cases that it is the parents dream for the child (their own vicarious dream) that is being enabled. My child has been dancing since she was 4. She is now 9 and doesn’t even realise/understand that vocational schools exist and what that actually means. A child isn’t born with the dream of going to vocational school. They were sold that dream along the way. The only way a child can know of what is possible is if these aspirations were fostered by others - be it parents or dance teachers or friends etc. It is ultimately a parent’s job to step in and manage expectations. If you don’t want a dance teacher indicating in code that your child’s physical attributes may not be suitable to ballet, do it yourself!! You can only fight family genes so far, ultimately, and it sounds much better coming from a parent!

 

As an outsider with no ballet knowledge whatsoever, it is extremely obvious to me what a ballet physique is likely to entail and that it is rare in the general population. There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to your child as they develop that their physique is perfect in every way but just may not necessarily be suited to ballet - in the same way their body won’t necessarily be suited to any other elite sport. Whether that is fair or unfair is not a helpful discussion. It is the reality at this time and that information should be discussed openly and lovingly by a parent with their child. If a teacher criticised my child’s physique, I would remind her of our discussion and explain again she is perfect in every way but just maybe not for ballet (like many, many others) and that we knew this time may come. There are so many other fulfilling careers in the industry and not everyone can be a ballerina no matter how badly we may want to be one. 

 

Body dysmorphia and poor diet is a huge problem for many children of all ages today - whether they are dancers or not - and it is our job as parents to instil appropriate values and eating habits from the day they are born so that they are not at the mercy of what the outside world throws at them like a leaf in a storm. We need to do better. A child arriving at a vocational school already with body issues or not having it explained to them in advance by their parents (in a loving and sensitive way) that they may look significantly different as they go through puberty (through no fault of their own) and hence ballet may not necessarily be a career for them, is a recipe for disaster. It is likely that many children will feel that they (or their bodies) are letting their parents down….the very parents who have worked so hard, sacrificed so much and supported them to get in. Letting down your parents (in reality or thinking you have done so) is a huge burden for a child to carry. 

 

If you are not able to develop your child’s self confidence, self worth, resilience and understanding of what the rigours of elite training will entail in an honest and realistic manner (ie having some difficult discussions based on the Panorama documentary as well as the many anecdotes on this forum) perhaps life at a vocational school may not be a suitable option for your child. 

[Tulip]

6 hours ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

It definitely is true, I whitenesses myself so many times. If you raise concerns, funding is withdrawn, parts in shows are removed, life is made uncomfortable for your child. It is difficult to take your child out because you are coming to GCSE time or are already in it. Also if your child is so driven, they will put up with that abuse, and will not forgive you for protecting them. Everything spoke about in that documentary is true and no doubt continuing. My daughter did make it and is still dancing professionally now, but she refuses to speak about her vocational school. 

[Tulip]

6 minutes ago, StephanieM said:

As a parent with a child whose dream is to be a ballerina I follow this forum (along with others) and anything else I can find to educate myself as much as possible about the industry. It is my job as a parent to make sure that what I do is in the best interests of my child. I know my daughter best which means that I (and not a school or teacher) have a better idea of how much dedication, drive and resilience she has and whether it may be enough to enter an elite field. I also have the best idea of her mental and emotional maturity. I am also best placed to asses how her body will (more than likely) develop during puberty based on that of my family and my husbands family. Family genes! Parents can definitely get a better idea of likely outcomes than a school or teacher ever could at an audition. 

 

Railing against the institutions and

saying “but things should be different” changes nothing. This will be an unpopular opinion but it needs to be said - it all ultimately starts and ends with the parents. It is the job of the parents to manage a child’s expectations as to what is realistic and achievable for that child. It seems in far too many cases that it is the parents dream for the child (their own vicarious dream) that is being enabled. My child has been dancing since she was 4. She is now 9 and doesn’t even realise/understand that vocational schools exist and what that actually means. A child isn’t born with the dream of going to vocational school. They were sold that dream along the way. The only way a child can know of what is possible is if these aspirations were fostered by others - be it parents or dance teachers or friends etc. It is ultimately a parent’s job to step in and manage expectations. If you don’t want a dance teacher indicating in code that your child’s physical attributes may not be suitable to ballet, do it yourself!! You can only fight family genes so far, ultimately, and it sounds much better coming from a parent!

 

As an outsider with no ballet knowledge whatsoever, it is extremely obvious to me what a ballet physique is likely to entail and that it is rare in the general population. There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to your child as they develop that their physique is perfect in every way but just may not necessarily be suited to ballet - in the same way their body won’t necessarily be suited to any other elite sport. Whether that is fair or unfair is not a helpful discussion. It is the reality at this time and that information should be discussed openly and lovingly by a parent with their child. If a teacher criticised my child’s physique, I would remind her of our discussion and explain again she is perfect in every way but just maybe not for ballet (like many, many others) and that we knew this time may come. There are so many other fulfilling careers in the industry and not everyone can be a ballerina no matter how badly we may want to be one. 

 

Body dysmorphia and poor diet is a huge problem for many children of all ages today - whether they are dancers or not - and it is our job as parents to instil appropriate values and eating habits from the day they are born so that they are not at the mercy of what the outside world throws at them like a leaf in a storm. We need to do better. A child arriving at a vocational school already with body issues or not having it explained to them in advance by their parents (in a loving and sensitive way) that they may look significantly different as they go through puberty (through no fault of their own) and hence ballet may not necessarily be a career for them, is a recipe for disaster. It is likely that many children will feel that they (or their bodies) are letting their parents down….the very parents who have worked so hard, sacrificed so much and supported them to get in. Letting down your parents (in reality or thinking you have done so) is a huge burden for a child to carry. 

 

If you are not able to develop your child’s self confidence, self worth, resilience and understanding of what the rigours of elite training will entail in an honest and realistic manner (ie having some difficult discussions based on the Panorama documentary as well as the many anecdotes on this forum) perhaps life at a vocational school may not be a suitable option for your child. 

These children have been chosen because vocational schools believe that these children have the correct attributes for a classical career. However when children are going through puberty their body goes through lots of changes, their final body won’t be matured until much later. Some (not all) teachers are humiliating and body shaming these students at their most vulnerable and hormonal time in their lives. These children already have strong muscles in their thighs and calves, during puberty these muscles can shorten and bunch up, making the student think that their legs are fatter and bigger. 
children board at these schools, very often they do not tell their parents so to avoid conflict in school. I could right an essay from a parents view. I was one who complained, my goodness that principal made my daughter suffer. I wanted to pull my daughter out, but she begged to stay and it was right on top of GSCE’s. She moved schools aged 16 to another top ballet school in London where she thrived and gained a professional dance career. 

[Lindsay]

15 minutes ago, StephanieM said:

As a parent with a child whose dream is to be a ballerina I follow this forum (along with others) and anything else I can find to educate myself as much as possible about the industry. It is my job as a parent to make sure that what I do is in the best interests of my child. I know my daughter best which means that I (and not a school or teacher) have a better idea of how much dedication, drive and resilience she has and whether it may be enough to enter an elite field. I also have the best idea of her mental and emotional maturity. I am also best placed to asses how her body will (more than likely) develop during puberty based on that of my family and my husbands family. Family genes! Parents can definitely get a better idea of likely outcomes than a school or teacher ever could at an audition. 

 

Railing against the institutions and

saying “but things should be different” changes nothing. This will be an unpopular opinion but it needs to be said - it all ultimately starts and ends with the parents. It is the job of the parents to manage a child’s expectations as to what is realistic and achievable for that child. It seems in far too many cases that it is the parents dream for the child (their own vicarious dream) that is being enabled. My child has been dancing since she was 4. She is now 9 and doesn’t even realise/understand that vocational schools exist and what that actually means. A child isn’t born with the dream of going to vocational school. They were sold that dream along the way. The only way a child can know of what is possible is if these aspirations were fostered by others - be it parents or dance teachers or friends etc. It is ultimately a parent’s job to step in and manage expectations. If you don’t want a dance teacher indicating in code that your child’s physical attributes may not be suitable to ballet, do it yourself!! You can only fight family genes so far, ultimately, and it sounds much better coming from a parent!

 

As an outsider with no ballet knowledge whatsoever, it is extremely obvious to me what a ballet physique is likely to entail and that it is rare in the general population. There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to your child as they develop that their physique is perfect in every way but just may not necessarily be suited to ballet - in the same way their body won’t necessarily be suited to any other elite sport. Whether that is fair or unfair is not a helpful discussion. It is the reality at this time and that information should be discussed openly and lovingly by a parent with their child. If a teacher criticised my child’s physique, I would remind her of our discussion and explain again she is perfect in every way but just maybe not for ballet (like many, many others) and that we knew this time may come. There are so many other fulfilling careers in the industry and not everyone can be a ballerina no matter how badly we may want to be one. 

 

Body dysmorphia and poor diet is a huge problem for many children of all ages today - whether they are dancers or not - and it is our job as parents to instil appropriate values and eating habits from the day they are born so that they are not at the mercy of what the outside world throws at them like a leaf in a storm. We need to do better. A child arriving at a vocational school already with body issues or not having it explained to them in advance by their parents (in a loving and sensitive way) that they may look significantly different as they go through puberty (through no fault of their own) and hence ballet may not necessarily be a career for them, is a recipe for disaster. It is likely that many children will feel that they (or their bodies) are letting their parents down….the very parents who have worked so hard, sacrificed so much and supported them to get in. Letting down your parents (in reality or thinking you have done so) is a huge burden for a child to carry. 

 

If you are not able to develop your child’s self confidence, self worth, resilience and understanding of what the rigours of elite training will entail in an honest and realistic manner (ie having some difficult discussions based on the Panorama documentary as well as the many anecdotes on this forum) perhaps life at a vocational school may not be a suitable option for your child. 

With respect Stephanie M, I think with a 9 year old with no experience of vocational school you should not be effectively 'parent-blaming' those who have had teenagers damaged by this system.  Look for example at Rubyfoo's post, which shows a parent with their eyes wide-open doing everything they can to sensibly protect their child.  The problem isn't that teenagers are concerned about letting down their parents.  It is that very bright, dedicated hard-working teenagers are (in many cases correctly!) decoding the destructive steps that the schools want them to take in order to 'succeed'.  It is the system that is sick - not the parents!

[Melody]

4 hours ago, Doing Dance 1 said:

 

I can’t help but find this wording dangerous. 
You mentioned strenuous lifts for the men - totally valid. 

However, why should the women be thinner?
As is already being implemented across schools and companies, surely a solution to the ‘problem’ is for the men - and dancers broadly - to be stronger? 
 

 

I'm just saying that a taller dancer will weigh more than a shorter one with the same physique, and this might be why, with taller dancers being more in fashion than they were, schools and companies have encouraged the dancers to be thinner. I'm not saying that's a good thing. I don't know what the actual criteria are - whether they're trying to make it easier for men to handle some of these complicated lifts or whether this androgynous look is a requirement for contemporary dance or whether Balanchine's desire for female dancers to be rail-thin has finally become the criterion or what the reason actually is. Personally I don't especially like the look of a bunch of swans or fairies in tutus with totally flat chests and no hips, but that might be because I grew up in the days before that became the standard. 

[Peanut68]

14 minutes ago, StephanieM said:

As a parent with a child whose dream is to be a ballerina I follow this forum (along with others) and anything else I can find to educate myself as much as possible about the industry. It is my job as a parent to make sure that what I do is in the best interests of my child. I know my daughter best which means that I (and not a school or teacher) have a better idea of how much dedication, drive and resilience she has and whether it may be enough to enter an elite field. I also have the best idea of her mental and emotional maturity. I am also best placed to asses how her body will (more than likely) develop during puberty based on that of my family and my husbands family. Family genes! Parents can definitely get a better idea of likely outcomes than a school or teacher ever could at an audition. 

 

Railing against the institutions and

saying “but things should be different” changes nothing. This will be an unpopular opinion but it needs to be said - it all ultimately starts and ends with the parents. It is the job of the parents to manage a child’s expectations as to what is realistic and achievable for that child. It seems in far too many cases that it is the parents dream for the child (their own vicarious dream) that is being enabled. My child has been dancing since she was 4. She is now 9 and doesn’t even realise/understand that vocational schools exist and what that actually means. A child isn’t born with the dream of going to vocational school. They were sold that dream along the way. The only way a child can know of what is possible is if these aspirations were fostered by others - be it parents or dance teachers or friends etc. It is ultimately a parent’s job to step in and manage expectations. If you don’t want a dance teacher indicating in code that your child’s physical attributes may not be suitable to ballet, do it yourself!! You can only fight family genes so far, ultimately, and it sounds much better coming from a parent!

 

As an outsider with no ballet knowledge whatsoever, it is extremely obvious to me what a ballet physique is likely to entail and that it is rare in the general population. There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to your child as they develop that their physique is perfect in every way but just may not necessarily be suited to ballet - in the same way their body won’t necessarily be suited to any other elite sport. Whether that is fair or unfair is not a helpful discussion. It is the reality at this time and that information should be discussed openly and lovingly by a parent with their child. If a teacher criticised my child’s physique, I would remind her of our discussion and explain again she is perfect in every way but just maybe not for ballet (like many, many others) and that we knew this time may come. There are so many other fulfilling careers in the industry and not everyone can be a ballerina no matter how badly we may want to be one. 

 

Body dysmorphia and poor diet is a huge problem for many children of all ages today - whether they are dancers or not - and it is our job as parents to instil appropriate values and eating habits from the day they are born so that they are not at the mercy of what the outside world throws at them like a leaf in a storm. We need to do better. A child arriving at a vocational school already with body issues or not having it explained to them in advance by their parents (in a loving and sensitive way) that they may look significantly different as they go through puberty (through no fault of their own) and hence ballet may not necessarily be a career for them, is a recipe for disaster. It is likely that many children will feel that they (or their bodies) are letting their parents down….the very parents who have worked so hard, sacrificed so much and supported them to get in. Letting down your parents (in reality or thinking you have done so) is a huge burden for a child to carry. 

 

If you are not able to develop your child’s self confidence, self worth, resilience and understanding of what the rigours of elite training will entail in an honest and realistic manner (ie having some difficult discussions based on the Panorama documentary as well as the many anecdotes on this forum) perhaps life at a vocational school may not be a suitable option for your child. 

When my kids were 9 - even up about 15 - I could imagine writing a similar post saying it’s the parents role to ensure dialogue channels  are always open & conversations are always frank etc etc….

But once mid teens you honestly - despite best efforts - can lose this….& worse, you may not even realise you have. New channels of communication open up to them & these may be far more influential than either you or they realise or want. And they can also then endeavour to hide the truth….keep up a level of confide in parents that makes you think all is fine….if I look back was I rather smug thinking I knew all there was to know? Yep, I guess shamefully I did live in a bubble of happy oblivion. 
And made easier of course by boarding & then even more so by lockdowns….

The other influencers? Varied & many…. And yes, teachers, other pupils, other non dance friends, people they are ‘friends’ with on social media - some they may actually have met, some just ‘famous’, celebrities, all might be Validated by others too as everyone at that age seeks affirmation from the herd. Distance can occur just by that whole teenage growing up ‘it’s my secret’ type of thing (remember that? I bet if we all look back we all have some little secrets from early adulthood!) 

So, do not take anything for granted. Do not expect that ‘however good a job you are doing now’ will mean all is fine & dandy going forwards. I don’t wish to sound judgemental or scaremongering but just say even with eyes wide open & listening in with volume up high you as a parent can & probably will miss occasional things of extreme importance. Sometimes it can even be a case of ‘brush it under carpet’ As an ‘it’s a phase’ ‘they’ll grow out of it’ etc etc. Or you just don’t have time/bandwidth/skills/tact to deal with it…. I know I didn’t. 
School of course is only ever one element & thus is reflected in whatever youngsters do & however & whatever they study. 
good luck all 

[Kat09]

29 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

What a monstrous thing to say to a parent about a young dancer! It makes me wonder what kind of experience this teacher had had themselves to say such a hateful thing. 

It does doesn’t it - sadly this tutor has moved to another of the big institutions- I do hope that she has reflected on the delivery of her dialogue.

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, Medora said:

But there will probably always be an upper limit for safety and also being able to dance the choreography as intended? You can move the cut off limit further up, and we will still end up with this exact debate at some stage. 

But does that inevitably mean that some young dancers won't have started their periods by 17 or 18, or that children starve themselves and develop anorexia because eating less is the only thing they are in control of, or that they are so emotionally broken by the constant criticism that they have to leave training altogether? Lets not also forget that many of the issues were not covered by this programme at all, which concentrated on only one aspect.

[along for the ride mum]

I have read one or two posts on this thread which I do not personally agree with. I have read some I agree with wholeheartedly, I have read one or two which have me wanting to scream and cry and yell. However, I do not react to those because to do so would do no good and would likely either distract from the very important issues at hand, get this thread locked or both. 
so, with that in mind can I respectfully ask that this very very vital thread remain focused on the issue, remain polite and respectful and remain open! 
the issue it hand is not wether or not dancers need to be a certain size or weight, or wether or not they have the physical, mental or emotional attributes to ‘make it’ in the dance world - the issue at hand is the way in which the requirements are communicated to CHILDREN in an educational environment by teachers who have a legal and moral duty of care! 
bullying is never acceptable, bullying tactics are particularly abhorrent when aimed at a child by an adult in a position of power. I don’t understand how anyone can argue differently. It is never a child’s fault, it is not about the child not having the necessary resilience! 
there is so much more I could say, want to say, and may find a way to say at some point but please please can we keep this thread on track and open. 
 

[Rachelm]

I was so angry and disappointed by what I heard on Panorama that I’ve just written a 3 page letter to the RBS, sent by email, expressing my disappointment in them, but also how I think things can be changed for the better. I doubt it will even be read, but I at least feel better for writing it!

[taxi4ballet]

3 hours ago, Ballet_novice said:

Here we are presented with 4 cases and make concluding remarks. How about the thousands of others with different experiences 

I am reminded of a phrase which is often used on Mumsnet.

 

"The only acceptable level of abuse is none".

[MAK]

3 hours ago, Ballet_novice said:

Yes. But why the so called investigative journalism does not do a proper investigations and does not limit to 4 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66720433

 

The article mentions that 50 dancers were interviewed. I imagine there wasn't the time to give a sufficient amount of time and respect to a higher number of individual stories in half an hour but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

The rest of my (long, sorry) post is not in direct response to Ballet_novice and is just how I've felt having had time to watch and process the programme and read the article.

 

There were lots of things that rang very true for me. Whilst I have never suffered with an eating disorder myself, I have had three very close friends that have, as well as a family member and several other friends and acquaintances. Two of my close friends were hospitalised and one very nearly died (she was 18, not a dancer). The issues causing their conditions were extremely complex and food just happened to be something they could control. Those of us that loved and cared for them were really careful not to use language around them that might worsen their feelings. We were teenagers living at home. I absolutely cannot bear to imagine what might have happened to them if they had been living away from family and non-dancing friends (of various sizes) and been regularly complimented and rewarded for the bodies they gained by depriving them themselves of food. The hospitals were doing everything within their power to incentivise them to eat, even if just a little. One friend was told if she could manage to put on a kilo she could go home for Christmas for example.

Quite the opposite of having your chances improved of getting a lead role in a ballet or a Company place by continuing to starve yourself.

These dancers had already proved their ability and potential by gaining places in these prestigious schools, selected over thousands of other applicants. It would no doubt have been the dream they'd dedicated most of their young lives to and the excitement they must have felt when invited to join must have been overwhelming.

 

I'm absolutely in awe of these young people and their families for finding the courage to abandon that dream and walk away in order to survive - albeit permanently scarred. 

 

There will always be people in any environment that come through it unscathed. There is also a strong argument that prospective ballerinas are likely to be perfectionists and self-critical, competitive and potentially more prone to eating disorders. My personal view is that with this being the case already, it is incumbent upon the schools who are responsible for these children during their time there, to be even more responsible for ensuring they are supported, protected and healthy.

 

 

[Drdee]

10 minutes ago, along for the ride mum said:

the issue it hand is not wether or not dancers need to be a certain size or weight, or wether or not they have the physical, mental or emotional attributes to ‘make it’ in the dance world - the issue at hand is the way in which the requirements are communicated to CHILDREN in an educational environment by teachers who have a legal and moral duty of care! 
bullying is never acceptable, bullying tactics are particularly abhorrent when aimed at a child by an adult in a position of power. I don’t understand how anyone can argue differently. It is never a child’s fault, it is not about the child not having the necessary resilience! 
there is so much more I could say, want to say, and may find a way to say at some point but please please can we keep this thread on track and open. 
 

All I can say as someone who has been involved in professional development of educators for 30 years this understanding needs to be practised by ALL teachers (Is there any teaching observation going on? What support do teachers have if they are struggling?). The dance studio is a place of LEARNING. This is not another plug but The Safer Dance working group https://www.dsswg.org.uk/home has over 100 dance and safeguarding educators on it. The Chair is a trustee of RAD. This is not going to go away. There are many dance educators and leaders who are aware of the poor teaching practices in elite institutions as well as elsewhere. The schools are not changing fast enough. 

[Ruby Foo]

51 minutes ago, StephanieM said:

As a parent with a child whose dream is to be a ballerina I follow this forum (along with others) and anything else I can find to educate myself as much as possible about the industry. It is my job as a parent to make sure that what I do is in the best interests of my child. I know my daughter best which means that I (and not a school or teacher) have a better idea of how much dedication, drive and resilience she has and whether it may be enough to enter an elite field. I also have the best idea of her mental and emotional maturity. I am also best placed to asses how her body will (more than likely) develop during puberty based on that of my family and my husbands family. Family genes! Parents can definitely get a better idea of likely outcomes than a school or teacher ever could at an audition. 

 

Railing against the institutions and

saying “but things should be different” changes nothing. This will be an unpopular opinion but it needs to be said - it all ultimately starts and ends with the parents. It is the job of the parents to manage a child’s expectations as to what is realistic and achievable for that child. It seems in far too many cases that it is the parents dream for the child (their own vicarious dream) that is being enabled. My child has been dancing since she was 4. She is now 9 and doesn’t even realise/understand that vocational schools exist and what that actually means. A child isn’t born with the dream of going to vocational school. They were sold that dream along the way. The only way a child can know of what is possible is if these aspirations were fostered by others - be it parents or dance teachers or friends etc. It is ultimately a parent’s job to step in and manage expectations. If you don’t want a dance teacher indicating in code that your child’s physical attributes may not be suitable to ballet, do it yourself!! You can only fight family genes so far, ultimately, and it sounds much better coming from a parent!

 

As an outsider with no ballet knowledge whatsoever, it is extremely obvious to me what a ballet physique is likely to entail and that it is rare in the general population. There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to your child as they develop that their physique is perfect in every way but just may not necessarily be suited to ballet - in the same way their body won’t necessarily be suited to any other elite sport. Whether that is fair or unfair is not a helpful discussion. It is the reality at this time and that information should be discussed openly and lovingly by a parent with their child. If a teacher criticised my child’s physique, I would remind her of our discussion and explain again she is perfect in every way but just maybe not for ballet (like many, many others) and that we knew this time may come. There are so many other fulfilling careers in the industry and not everyone can be a ballerina no matter how badly we may want to be one. 

 

Body dysmorphia and poor diet is a huge problem for many children of all ages today - whether they are dancers or not - and it is our job as parents to instil appropriate values and eating habits from the day they are born so that they are not at the mercy of what the outside world throws at them like a leaf in a storm. We need to do better. A child arriving at a vocational school already with body issues or not having it explained to them in advance by their parents (in a loving and sensitive way) that they may look significantly different as they go through puberty (through no fault of their own) and hence ballet may not necessarily be a career for them, is a recipe for disaster. It is likely that many children will feel that they (or their bodies) are letting their parents down….the very parents who have worked so hard, sacrificed so much and supported them to get in. Letting down your parents (in reality or thinking you have done so) is a huge burden for a child to carry. 

 

If you are not able to develop your child’s self confidence, self worth, resilience and understanding of what the rigours of elite training will entail in an honest and realistic manner (ie having some difficult discussions based on the Panorama documentary as well as the many anecdotes on this forum) perhaps life at a vocational school may not be a suitable option for your child. 

 
Some of the words sent in a text message at the time of the abuse

crushed

beat down

lost her way

lost herself 

massively set back in every way.

 

They describe perfectly what was happening before our eyes.

My daughter had a perfect physical  (proportions) attributes  and was as confident as they come. In her first vocational school she was very happy and she thrived. Parents and children shouldn’t be blamed for the abuse of teachers who are there to nurture them and help them realise their potential.

[taxi4ballet]

2 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

.....Under no circumstances would my dc have EVER reported bullying, abuse or any negative behaviour from teachers, the houseparents or the school in general whether it was completely confidential or not. The clue is in the ‘all students behave impeccably’. Of course they do, because each and everyone would do ANYTHING to remain in the school, to go to upper school and to be accepted to the Company. And I do mean ANYTHING, such is their mindset. In the early days they may not even have been aware of some of the very subtle abuse taking place such is the nature of a’Ballet class’ ......

 

This in bucketloads.  They have been drilled into obedience from an early age, and are so desperate to remain at the school, they will put up with almost anything.

Edited September 12, 2023 by taxi4ballet

[Ballet Saga]

1 hour ago, Lindsay said:

With respect Stephanie M, I think with a 9 year old with no experience of vocational school you should not be effectively 'parent-blaming' those who have had teenagers damaged by this system.  Look for example at Rubyfoo's post, which shows a parent with their eyes wide-open doing everything they can to sensibly protect their child.  The problem isn't that teenagers are concerned about letting down their parents.  It is that very bright, dedicated hard-working teenagers are (in many cases correctly!) decoding the destructive steps that the schools want them to take in order to 'succeed'.  It is the system that is sick - not the parents!

But parents do have a hand in it and it would be naive to say otherwise. 
 

‘Pushy dance mum’ isn’t a saying for no reason. There will be some who are quite happy to see their children become top of the class for doing all the ‘right’ things the school say to do, when in fact a lot of those ‘right’ things have a detrimental affect on their child. 
 

There are parents who encourage being skinny because it equates with success. 
 

Not to say that of course the schools needs to protect children, but it’s a combination of things. 
 

Even in the documentary it was clear some of those parents had an idea of what was going on before it got worse. Maybe they keep their children there because the children beg to stay, but surely parents have to take some responsibility. 
 

I don’t think it’s helpful blaming the schools entirely. We’re all dance parents and even we know when we’ve made mistakes. 

[Drdee]

I don’t think it’s helpful blaming the schools entirely. 

 

When I hear these comments I just do not know if we saw the same programme @Graceful. This is not about blaming the schools. It is that these two schools are failing their students. These schools are trying their best but they are needing to tackle head on a number of 'outdated and counterproductive' toxic behaviours/attitudes that emanate within the ballet industry. This starts with the training and finishes with the productions we attend and are nurtured by. The teaching approaches need to change and adapt to what is happening now and meet the needs of the future generation of dancers. This programme has been thoughtfully put together with professionals who care about the industry and those who work in that industry. This needs leadership and a diversity of voices. 

[Anna C]

When we send our children to school, we trust that school to care for our children.  Whether it be a ballet school, a music school, a sports academy, a Faith school or even an everyday academic school, while the students are on the premises, the school has a Duty of Care.

 

As I said earlier, as Parents, we don’t know what we don’t know.  Wouldn’t it be lovely to be able to go back in time?  Wouldn’t it be great if we could shelter our children and not let them audition for Associates or full-time training, whether that be in ballet, music, football, whatever they are talented in and dream of becoming?

 

But would they thank us for it?  I don’t think so.  If they audition/apply for elite training, and get selected at RBS/Elmhurst/ENBS or any of the other big, long established, “famous” schools in receipt of public funding, are any of us as parents going to say “Well done darling, but I’m not going to let you accept your place in case you end up with boobs/hips/thighs like mine”.  I mean there’s a fairly big chance that they won’t (my daughter has a completely different body shape than me, and longer limbs than my husband; my sister in law was the first redhead in her family since a great great grandparent) - and believe me, if that’s the case, a teenager will have no hesitation in reminding you ad infinitum that you DID NOT LET THEM TRY.

 

If a child is selected for one of the best and most famous institutions in the world, we should be able to entrust them to that institution without the fear that they will be abused, bullied, shamed, humiliated, driven to self-harm or worse.  Of course personality plays a part (it’s no coincidence that Oxbridge has a much higher number of students with Imposter Syndrome than Aberystwyth (no offence to Aberystwyth at all); likewise it’s no coincidence that so many ballet students are perfectionists with an extremely vocal inner critic, especially when they’ve been forced to stare at their bodies in a mirror for hours on end, wearing only a leotard and tights).  But blaming a student - or that student’s parent - for abuse suffered while they are at a world renowned school, is unacceptable.  It’s victim blaming.

 

The student who was accepted into Upper School, and in her first week, was told by a teacher “If I had a knife, this is what I would cut off” - no parent could predict that a TEACHER would say that to their 16 year old.
 

In last night’s programme, Jack’s parents had gone through the unimaginable.  Is anyone here going to tell them that they shouldn’t have let their son go to ballet school?  Do you think it’s not something they’ve asked themselves over and over again?

 

Of course we have to look out for our children.  But we should also let them try for their dreams, and use the talents they have.  As much as we’d like to, we cannot shelter them from everything.  And we should be able to trust that they will be safe at school.

 

 

 

 

[Lindsay]

15 minutes ago, Drdee said:

I don’t think it’s helpful blaming the schools entirely. 

 

When I hear these comments I just do not know if we saw the same programme @Graceful. This is not about blaming the schools. It is that these two schools are failing their students. These schools are trying their best but they are needing to tackle head on a number of 'outdated and counterproductive' toxic behaviours/attitudes that emanate within the ballet industry. This starts with the training and finishes with the productions we attend and are nurtured by. The teaching approaches need to change and adapt to what is happening now and meet the needs of the future generation of dancers. This programme has been thoughtfully put together with professionals who care about the industry and those who work in that industry. This needs leadership and a diversity of voices. 

This is absolutely right.  DrDee do you know whether any of the vocational schools have adopted (or been asked to adopt) the "Safe Teaching Practice" Guidelines from the Checklist on the Safer Dance website? They look eminently sensible and remind me of a similar set of guidelines devised in the wake of the specialist music schools scandal (which aimed to stop unsafe practices like teachers giving lessons in their own homes, touching students without consent, using inappropriately sexualised language with the excuse that it reflected their 'passion' for the music).  There was a big push amongst the community of musicians campaigning for change to get institutions to commit to following those guidelines.  It seems to me that would be a very good focus for any communications/petitions people wanted to address to ballet schools (although I'm sure Safer Dance will have thought of this already!)

[taxi4ballet]

38 minutes ago, Graceful said:

But parents do have a hand in it and it would be naive to say otherwise. 
 

‘Pushy dance mum’ isn’t a saying for no reason. There will be some who are quite happy to see their children become top of the class for doing all the ‘right’ things the school say to do, when in fact a lot of those ‘right’ things have a detrimental affect on their child. 
 

There are parents who encourage being skinny because it equates with success. 
 

Not to say that of course the schools needs to protect children, but it’s a combination of things. 
 

Even in the documentary it was clear some of those parents had an idea of what was going on before it got worse. Maybe they keep their children there because the children beg to stay, but surely parents have to take some responsibility. 
 

I don’t think it’s helpful blaming the schools entirely. We’re all dance parents and even we know when we’ve made mistakes. 

 

People can be as pushy a parent as they like, but that will not get their child into the Royal Ballet School. 

 

You think parents have to take some responsibility. Really? Bearing in mind that many of these children are in their mid-late teens and deliberately don't or can't bring themselves to tell their parents what's going on, I think that's somewhat unfair.