Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Drdee]

So what does a young 23 year old ballet dancer who runs a dance podcast on instagram in their spare time do when they receive 150 private messages from young dancers as a result of this BBC Panorama programme and File on 4 programme? Where does she start? I really do wish that the Artistic Directors of these two schools did go on camera or at least take a much more personal approach to this situation. Of course some of these dancers are at other schools. I have got permission by the @the_hardcorps_podcast to post this on this forum. 

[Drdee]

9 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

This is absolutely right.  DrDee do you know whether any of the vocational schools have adopted (or been asked to adopt) the "Safe Teaching Practice" Guidelines from the Checklist on the Safer Dance website? They look eminently sensible and remind me of a similar set of guidelines devised in the wake of the specialist music schools scandal (which aimed to stop unsafe practices like teachers giving lessons in their own homes, touching students without consent, using inappropriately sexualised language with the excuse that it reflected their 'passion' for the music).  There was a big push amongst the community of musicians campaigning for change to get institutions to commit to following those guidelines.  It seems to me that would be a very good focus for any communications/petitions people wanted to address to ballet schools (although I'm sure Safer Dance will have thought of this already!)

I can say that these guidelines have been prepared by VOLUNTEERS (who professionally linked to dance and education). We do have ENBS and a number of the Musical Theatre schools on the working group who have provided feedback where appropriate. The list is on the website.

[Ballet Saga]

28 minutes ago, Drdee said:

I don’t think it’s helpful blaming the schools entirely. 

 

When I hear these comments I just do not know if we saw the same programme @Graceful. This is not about blaming the schools. It is that these two schools are failing their students. These schools are trying their best but they are needing to tackle head on a number of 'outdated and counterproductive' toxic behaviours/attitudes that emanate within the ballet industry. This starts with the training and finishes with the productions we attend and are nurtured by. The teaching approaches need to change and adapt to what is happening now and meet the needs of the future generation of dancers. This programme has been thoughtfully put together with professionals who care about the industry and those who work in that industry. This needs leadership and a diversity of voices. 

The point is that parents are part of the problem. 
 

It comes down to the culture of ballet training as a whole. 
 

Many parents are quite happy to send their children off to intensive after intensive during the holidays. They encourage their children to be ‘yes’ children and don’t complain in case it affects your chances of success. 
 

That will continue whether the schools change or not. 
 

Look at the training in some countries abroad - the successful ones are seen as the best in the world. They were likely put through hell! Parents see that and think that’s what you need to succeed. So they agree with the schools. 
 

If parents all complained and stood up to the schools there would be more change. But they don’t want to see their children not succeed so they stay silent. They’re to blame as well and they make it worse for the rest of us. 
 

 

[taxi4ballet]

My parental gut instinct went into hyperdrive when we visited one school my DD auditioned at and I couldn't put my finger on why. She was offered a place there but turned it down and thank God she did. She had a seriously bad time where she did go, but it could have been a lot worse.

 

So I will say to any parent considering a vocational place for their dc, if your gut instinct is going against both heart and head, there could be a reason why.  Pay heed to it, and don't take your eye off the ball for a second.

[Richard LH]

3 hours ago, DancerFifi said:

Ofsted do not investigate any bullying and appear to generally turn a blind eye to it

But haven't Ofsted  also been criticised recently for being too hard on schools on safeguarding  compliance? 

 

As far as the ISI is concerned, they state "Inspectors may be aware of individual safeguarding concerns, allegations and complaints as part of the inspection process. Such matters will not usually be referred to specifically in published reports in this document but will have been considered by the team in reaching its judgements."

 

I can't imagine Inspectors would dare, in the current climate, to ignore multiple, genuine and ongoing reports of problems of this type, so surely in coming to an "excellent" conclusion about a school, they can't yet have received such reports, from current, or past, students or parents, or indeed via the wider media.

 

The possible reasons for this will remain open for debate but it will be interesting to see the outcome of the NEXT  ballet school inspection reports, following this programme. 

 

 

 

[Ballet Saga]

10 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

 

People can be as pushy a parent as they like, but that will not get their child into the Royal Ballet School. 

 

You think parents have to take some responsibility. Really? Bearing in mind that many of these children are in their mid-late teens and deliberately don't or can't bring themselves to tell their parents what's going on, I think that's somewhat unfair. 

 

Actually you’re wrong. 
 

Pushy parents have got their children into RBS. 
 

I have a teenager and it’s extremely obvious when something is up with them. 
 

What is probably the issue is that parents lead busy lives and miss things. Also, if they see them as thin it’s success to many. Which yes is pretty awful. There are not so good parents out there who want their children to succeed at all costs and will put a massive amount of pressure on them. Surely you know that to be true? 

[taxi4ballet]

1 minute ago, Graceful said:

The point is that parents are part of the problem. 
 

It comes down to the culture of ballet training as a whole. 
 

Many parents are quite happy to send their children off to intensive after intensive during the holidays. They encourage their children to be ‘yes’ children and don’t complain in case it affects your chances of success. 
 

That will continue whether the schools change or not. 
 

Look at the training in some countries abroad - the successful ones are seen as the best in the world. They were likely put through hell! Parents see that and think that’s what you need to succeed. So they agree with the schools. 
 

If parents all complained and stood up to the schools there would be more change. But they don’t want to see their children not succeed so they stay silent. They’re to blame as well and they make it worse for the rest of us. 
 

 

Totally off-topic, but I know someone who is currently incarcerated in prison for sexual offences against children. He got away with it for years because people liked him, parents trusted him, and it was only when one of the children reached adulthood that she felt able to tell her parents of the historic abuse. Her parents were most definitely not to blame for allowing her to spend time with this man. They were groomed as much as the child was. He was a trusted, respected pillar of the community. Why would any parent not put their faith in him to take care of their child? 

 

 

[TiredOfThis]

2 minutes ago, Graceful said:

Actually you’re wrong. 
 

Pushy parents have got their children into RBS. 
 

I have a teenager and it’s extremely obvious when something is up with them. 
 

What is probably the issue is that parents lead busy lives and miss things. Also, if they see them as thin it’s success to many. Which yes is pretty awful. There are not so good parents out there who want their children to succeed at all costs and will put a massive amount of pressure on them. Surely you know that to be true? 

Would it be so obvious if you didn’t see your child for at least three weeks at a time and the only contact you get is a very distracted, tired 5 minute phonecall per night (if lucky)? And when they are home it’s so brief and they are just knackered and relieved to be able to do nothing for 24hrs. Or worse, feel like they have to catch up with everyone? And deal with the many, many questions your concerned parents are asking? It’s quite easy to close up and say all is fine. 

[taxi4ballet]

5 minutes ago, Graceful said:

I have a teenager and it’s extremely obvious when something is up with them. 
 

What is probably the issue is that parents lead busy lives and miss things. Also, if they see them as thin it’s success to many. Which yes is pretty awful. There are not so good parents out there who want their children to succeed at all costs and will put a massive amount of pressure on them. Surely you know that to be true? 

How many times do I have to say that this is not all about children losing weight? There are many issues with vocational schools and this is only one small aspect of it. My dd's problem had nothing to do with weight or body image whatsoever. I had no idea of the monumental foul-up the staff had made, nor did dd, and by the time we found out, it was too late. I won't go into details, it is too identifying, but she was treated appallingly, she thought she was at fault and a failure, and we thought they were dealing with it. They weren't. In the end, I had to threaten them with legal action before they would even talk to me.

[Anna C]

23 minutes ago, Graceful said:

If parents all complained and stood up to the schools there would be more change. But they don’t want to see their children not succeed so they stay silent. They’re to blame as well and they make it worse for the rest of us. 

I think your anger is misplaced, Graceful.  If there was no abuse/bullying/mistreatment in the first place, parents wouldn’t HAVE to stand up to the schools.

 

Without wishing to bring politics into the discussion, this is like blaming Brexit voters for the resultant post 2016 mess, even though many Brexit voters were misled, instead of blaming the politicians who called for the referendum and pushed Brexit through.  
 

And parents clearly HAVE complained.  Has anything fundamental changed?

[billythewhizz]

30 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

But haven't Ofsted  also been criticised recently for being too hard on schools on safeguarding  compliance? 

 

As far as the ISI is concerned, they state "Inspectors may be aware of individual safeguarding concerns, allegations and complaints as part of the inspection process. Such matters will not usually be referred to specifically in published reports in this document but will have been considered by the team in reaching its judgements."

 

I can't imagine Inspectors would dare, in the current climate, to ignore multiple, genuine and ongoing reports of problems of this type, so surely in coming to an "excellent" conclusion about a school, they can't yet have received such reports, from current, or past, students or parents, or indeed via the wider media.

 

The possible reasons for this will remain open for debate but it will be interesting to see the outcome of the NEXT  ballet school inspection reports, following this programme. 

 

 

 

Hi Richard, there is also the issue of OFSTED reporting on a prestigious school who carries a royal patron…not a typical local school OFSTED report and, call me cynical, I think it must be in their minds as a given even before visiting the school. How would their mind set change from assessing vocational Elmhurst to deprived area of UK school….would their scrutiny and pre conditioning of what to expect change?

[Tulip]

49 minutes ago, Anna C said:

When we send our children to school, we trust that school to care for our children.  Whether it be a ballet school, a music school, a sports academy, a Faith school or even an everyday academic school, while the students are on the premises, the school has a Duty of Care.

 

As I said earlier, as Parents, we don’t know what we don’t know.  Wouldn’t it be lovely to be able to go back in time?  Wouldn’t it be great if we could shelter our children and not let them audition for Associates or full-time training, whether that be in ballet, music, football, whatever they are talented in and dream of becoming?

 

But would they thank us for it?  I don’t think so.  If they audition/apply for elite training, and get selected at RBS/Elmhurst/ENBS or any of the other big, long established, “famous” schools in receipt of public funding, are any of us as parents going to say “Well done darling, but I’m not going to let you accept your place in case you end up with boobs/hips/thighs like mine”.  I mean there’s a fairly big chance that they won’t (my daughter has a completely different body shape than me, and longer limbs than my husband; my sister in law was the first redhead in her family since a great great grandparent) - and believe me, if that’s the case, a teenager will have no hesitation in reminding you ad infinitum that you DID NOT LET THEM TRY.

 

If a child is selected for one of the best and most famous institutions in the world, we should be able to entrust them to that institution without the fear that they will be abused, bullied, shamed, humiliated, driven to self-harm or worse.  Of course personality plays a part (it’s no coincidence that Oxbridge has a much higher number of students with Imposter Syndrome than Aberystwyth (no offence to Aberystwyth at all); likewise it’s no coincidence that so many ballet students are perfectionists with an extremely vocal inner critic, especially when they’ve been forced to stare at their bodies in a mirror for hours on end, wearing only a leotard and tights).  But blaming a student - or that student’s parent - for abuse suffered while they are at a world renowned school, is unacceptable.  It’s victim blaming.

 

The student who was accepted into Upper School, and in her first week, was told by a teacher “If I had a knife, this is what I would cut off” - no parent could predict that a TEACHER would say that to their 16 year old.
 

In last night’s programme, Jack’s parents had gone through the unimaginable.  Is anyone here going to tell them that they shouldn’t have let their son go to ballet school?  Do you think it’s not something they’ve asked themselves over and over again?

 

Of course we have to look out for our children.  But we should also let them try for their dreams, and use the talents they have.  As much as we’d like to, we cannot shelter them from everything.  And we should be able to trust that they will be safe at school.

 

 

 

 

Very well said Anna x

[Laura_ballet]

25 minutes ago, TiredOfThis said:

Would it be so obvious if you didn’t see your child for at least three weeks at a time and the only contact you get is a very distracted, tired 5 minute phonecall per night (if lucky)? And when they are home it’s so brief and they are just knackered and relieved to be able to do nothing for 24hrs. Or worse, feel like they have to catch up with everyone? And deal with the many, many questions your concerned parents are asking? It’s quite easy to close up and say all is fine. 

These are my fears as a mum with a daughter wanting to go to vocational school. I fear she will put up with it out of fear and determination to succeed. 

[Beezie]

Agree with several things I have heard:

 

Parents can be groomed into complicity.  I suspect this actively happens.

 

And I don’t think it is as easy as explaining to your child that they don’t have the genes for ballet.  If I were to guess, I would suspect eating disorders equally affect children who already have the classical ballet body, but just a smidge of remaining body fat. 
 

And finally, as someone already pointed out: Dance or no dance, eating disorders are serious and can happen in many situations.  20 years ago, I knew of a U.S. sorority who would take permanent markers and circle girls ‘areas of fat’ as part of initiation.  Discussions about abuse, healthy eating and positive body image should be a topic in every parents repertoire….because we just don’t know when and where our children will be exposed to some of these behaviors. 
 

And didn’t mean to get off the topic of Dance schools.  It is disgusting that any teacher is engaging in abuse of any sort.  They are in a position of trust.  They need to be better, without question.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Beezie

[Peony]

As someone with no skin in the game it’s always very apparent on these threads that there is indeed a lot of denial, victim blaming (including of parents) and closure of ranks. Perhaps some people actually can’t identify poor practice? Sometimes it’s easier to deny rather than tackle it. It’s never the fault of the victim. 

[academicdancer]

54 minutes ago, Drdee said:

So what does a young 23 year old ballet dancer who runs a dance podcast on instagram in their spare time do when they receive 150 private messages from young dancers as a result of this BBC Panorama programme and File on 4 programme? Where does she start? I really do wish that the Artistic Directors of these two schools did go on camera or at least take a much more personal approach to this situation. Of course some of these dancers are at other schools. I have got permission by the @the_hardcorps_podcast to post this on this forum. 

The hard corps podcast really is excellent. It really highlights the highs and lows of the ballet world by allowing dancers from all over the world to tell their stories. Additionally, it has given a voice to so many students, not just from our UK vocational schools, to talk about the difficulties (and trauma in some cases) they went through in vocational training. And it shows how everyone's experience of the same institution can be so different, whilst also highlighting common experiences in the ballet world. Well worth listening to.

[Peanut68]

24 minutes ago, billythewhizz said:

Hi Richard, there is also the issue of OFSTED reporting on a prestigious school who carries a royal patron…not a typical local school OFSTED report and, call me cynical, I think it must be in their minds as a given even before visiting the school. How would their mind set change from assessing vocational Elmhurst to deprived area of UK school….would their scrutiny and pre conditioning of what to expect change?

Interesting points…. Bet they look forward to the posh lunch & surroundings too!

FYI - I seem to have reached a limit of reactions  I can make so sadly am unable to add my click of thanks or likes to many posts above I should have liked to…

Edited September 12, 2023 by Peanut68

[taxi4ballet]

Hypothetical and completely fictitious conversation between two people on a walk around the leafy grounds at a random private school which offers bursaries to students with a talent in a particular field...

 

Inspector " What a wonderful place you have here. Tell me, Headmaster/Histress, several parents of former pupils have said that they were unhappy about how their children were treated while at the school. What do you say to that?"

 

Head: "Oh, well I expect the children were simply not talented enough to keep their place at this school, we have to spend the patrons' scholarship money wisely you know, and this is all just sour grapes. The parents can't accept that their children failed".

 

Inspector "Ah yes, Heamaster/Mistress, I see what you mean... "

 

 

[capybara]

3 minutes ago, academicdancer said:

The hard corps podcast really is excellent. It really highlights the highs and lows of the ballet world by allowing dancers from all over the world to tell their stories. Additionally, it has given a voice to so many students, not just from our UK vocational schools, to talk about the difficulties (and trauma in some cases) they went through in vocational training. And it shows how everyone's experience of the same institution can be so different, whilst also highlighting common experiences in the ballet world. Well worth listening to.

 

Does anyone have the direct email addresses of the ADs of various schools and would thus be able to send them a link to this podcast? I would gladly point them in that direction if had a way of making contact because I think they would (should) find the content helpful.

[Ballet Saga]

Even after this documentary. Even after knowing their children will likely be assessed out in year 9, parents will still send their children away. Knowing all the risks but thinking mine might be lucky, mine might be good enough etc. To try and take any responsibility away from the parents is ridiculous. 
Seeing your children for exeat and long holidays is enough to know something is going on. I wonder if some parents are in denial. 
I’m not saying the schools are not to blame as well. Of course they are. But you’re still a parent and your main job is protecting your child, not a school. 
No school will ever be perfect and it takes lots of complaints to change things. But as I said before many parents don’t - especially if their child is doing well there. So yes it is in part the responsibility of the parents. 
 

[TalariumSaltator]

Finally, I hope this could be the tipping point that has been waiting for many years and provide a voice to people who still feel impacted and conditioned to keep silent. I am hopeful that there will be a shift in the ability to feel confident to speak out without any form of come back or jeopardy .   Pastoral care is equally as important and should also come under as much scrutiny as any element of our child’s vocational care, having bitch Wednesdays when you could share open thoughts about any of your fellow students which was run and are organised by house parent (and house parents also sharing their thoughts)  is not exactly a good example do you think?

[Drdee]

13 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

Does anyone have the direct email addresses of the ADs of various schools and would thus be able to send them a link to this podcast? I would gladly point them in that direction if had a way of making contact because I think they would (should) find the content helpful.

I can personally say that both ADs are aware of the podcast. One follows it personally and the other has been made aware of it via a number of avenues. I am sure they both can see that it has a place in the social media world. 

[along for the ride mum]

teachers ( by which I mean ballet teachers, football coaches, swim teachers, academic teachers, college lecturers etc etc etc ) have a LEGAL and MORAL obligation to protect and promote the welfare of their pupils/ students and to act in an appropriate professional manner!  
A term which I believe might come from the medical sector comes to mind - first do no harm!!

If a teacher at an academic state school were thought to have used inappropriate language to bully or shame a child or publicly humiliate them,  would anyone start to excuse or explain that behaviour by criticising the parents?!! 
Of course not! 
It is the professional adult’s responsibility to regulate their behaviour and to act in a lawful, moral and responsible manner full stop. No excuses! I like the saying quoted earlier ( I think it was from taxi 4 ballet?)  - the only acceptable level of abuse is zero - regardless of what anyone may think of the parenting! Please can we all be cautious that we do not heap parental guilt on top of an already terrible situation! 
(I have chosen my words very carefully here and self edited several times) 
 

[Richard LH]

45 minutes ago, Anna C said:

And parents clearly HAVE complained.

But have they, officially? If they have, they would have to be recorded and available for Inspectors... as explained in the RBS complaints policy.

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/royal-ballet-school-policies/

 

So if there have been such complaints, and they  are multiple, genuine and serious, I can't imagine how  Inspectors could have been ignoring them in reaching their assessment...irrespective of the "Royal" tag referred to by @billythewhizz

[Anna C]

@Graceful, I’m going to ask you to think about what these parents have gone through, and the fact that you are potentially upsetting both your fellow forum members - and other people who may be reading this thread - by repeating your opinion again and again.

 

Thanks.

[Lindsay]

3 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

But have they, officially? If they have, they would have to be recorded and available for Inspectors... as explained in the RBS complaints policy.

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/royal-ballet-school-policies/

 

So if there have been such complaints, and they  are multiple, genuine and serious, I can't imagine how  Inspectors could have been ignoring them in reaching their assessment...irrespective of the "Royal" tag referred to by @billythewhizz

Richard you have a very naive faith in the power of 'systems' and written policies.  Inspectors are neither omniscient nor infallible and the scope of their enquiries are necessarily extremely limited.  

[Richard LH]

Also on Complaints, the RBS policy states...

"Two things tend to make parents reluctant to complain or to express concerns: 
a) A fear that the School will not see the issue to be important: please be assured that, if it is important to you, it is important to us 
b) A fear that a concern or complaint may lead to repercussions for the student: under no circumstances will the School discriminate against a student because of expressions of concern or complaints. The School is very experienced in ensuring that, if other students are involved (e.g. in an allegation of bullying), there are no repercussions from other quarters. 
This policy seeks to explain the systems we have put in place to give you confidence in our willingness to listen to them and in our determination to be open, honest and fair in our dealings with you. It highlights the routes anyone can follow if they feel that something is not right, that their child or ward is fed up, unhappy, being treated unfairly or bullied, or if they have any other concern or complaint."

 

So fears of repercussions for the student are recognised but (seemingly) comprehensively dismissed. I would hope that if there were such repercussions from teachers, this would lead to  even more complaints and serious repercussions for the teachers themselves.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Richard LH

[Richard LH]

4 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

Richard you have a very naive faith in the power of 'systems' and written policies.  Inspectors are neither omniscient nor infallible and the scope of their enquiries are necessarily extremely limited.  

But Inspectors must see reports of  complaints, as indicated above.

[along for the ride mum]

7 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

Richard you have a very naive faith in the power of 'systems' and written policies.  Inspectors are neither omniscient nor infallible and the scope of their enquiries are necessarily extremely limited.  

I cannot speak of rbs but I most certainly have complained on several occasions, in writing to a vocational school which speak loudly about their ‘robust safeguarding procedures’. 
What happens to those complaints internally, once they have been received I cannot comment on

Edited September 12, 2023 by along for the ride mum

[billythewhizz]

7 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

But have they, officially? If they have, they would have to be recorded and available for Inspectors... as explained in the RBS complaints policy.

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/royal-ballet-school-policies/

 

So if there have been such complaints, and they  are multiple, genuine and serious, I can't imagine how  Inspectors could have been ignoring them in reaching their assessment...irrespective of the "Royal" tag referred to by @billythewhizz

Hi Richard, I admire your trust and confidence in the system, however does this differ from what we have been exposed to and trust in the ‘system’. It is human nature to trust in official Org’s however what has happened recently in NHS, Government, Police, Local Authority, Private Sector, Public Sector, BBC, gymnastics, other sports, etc……but I am sure the ballet world is totally different and exceptional and therefore does not warrant any form of scrutiny and self questioning (surely this is healthy for our children and should not be white washed on a forum).

Who would you trust, what your child is telling you or what an external Org is doing and probably managed to conduct some form of report…you are missing the point by a long way

[Lindsay]

6 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

But Inspectors must see reports of  complaints, as indicated above.

Richard, for an example of how these things play out in practice you might be interested in reading this blog written a few years ago by a father of a pupil at one of the two schools discussed last night, who struggled through the complaints process at great damage to himself and his son.  The Governors in the end upheld his complaint but excused the staff behaviour on the grounds that they had found this parents' complaints "scary"

https://www.balletdadblog.com/the-blog

 

[Lizbie1]

I ask this not in hopes of identifying anyone but to gauge whether the culture is self-perpetuating: are the teachers that have caused problems generally older?

[DancingWellies]

Well this has turned into a bit of a Me Too moment, clearly these issues are even more endemic than I thought and we knew it was bad. For so many people to share these negative experiences it's clearly the norm not the exception. For those of you commenting who do not have direct experience of the schools maybe you should consider that your opinions don't carry quite as much weight as those of us who have. I don't see many parents posting positive experiences here.

 

Yes we were naive, there was so much invested in getting the place not on what would happen afterwards. Maybe if people had spoken out more historically we'd have been more prepared.