Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[WhatsThePointe]

I'm sure I've said it before, but I really don't understand why whoever is in charge of the MDS scheme doesn't seem to 'check up' on how well the providers are performing. The turnover of kids in these school in some year groups in particular is massive. The amount of money that has gone into funding the ones who then leave must be huge. I know they can't guarantee everyone will stick it out, but these aren't just an odd child here and there who decides it's not for them. There are sooooo many.  If I was handing out hundreds of thousands in grants to schools and everyone was quitting before the end I would be looking into why. How come that doesn't happen?

[Ballet Saga]

1 hour ago, Lindsay said:

This is absolutely it.  The schools are linked to the companies who ARE the dream.  And for most they are also boarding school.  Also, at grammar schools you don't spend hours every day with your growing and changing body dressed in a leotard and tights in front of mirrors, teachers and all of your peers........

These schools aren’t really attached to companies. Especially in the lower school. And there has been many discussions on this forum how the British kids rarely get into the upper school. So is it all a bit of a pipe dream and are parents blinkered to it? Should we be dictated to by our 11/12 year old children on what their ambition is? To the point we send them away to unhealthy institutions? I do believe the parents have a part to play in these issues. I think you’d be surprised at what goes on in grammar schools and also regular schools. The bullying and shaming. No interest in mental health issues or learning difficulties. And sport in a lot of grammar schools is paramount so you don’t succeed there or are given attention unless you’re good at it. 

[Ballet Saga]

16 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

We live in probably the last county in the country where the default is for year 6 students to sit the 11+ (or ‘transfer test’ as they prefer to call it) unless parents ‘opt out’ their child from sitting it. I therefore know countless numbers of kids who didn’t make the qualifying mark, ended up going to comprehensive schools, and had a more brilliant and rewarding time than a number of those who go to grammar. I can’t even count with all fingers those who left comprehensive schools with much better GCSEs and ended in better unis. It’s horrible going through the the whole 11+ experience, I must admit, but I sincerely believe it’s easier and much more possible for both grammar and comp school children to eventually end up in the same, for example, Russell Group universities. I’m not sure it’s as easy for those who go to normal schools and train after school to go to the same vocational upper schools as those who go to these top lower school vocational schools. In the grammar school scenario, it’s especially cruel for those who just about missed the pass mark narrowly. But these children often end up shining in comprehensive schools and gaining more confidence achieving more there than peers who suddenly found themselves being small fish in a big grammar school pond where most children are as smart or smarter than them.

The marks change each year for grammar schools. It depends on the level of that year. This sort of talk like shining in a comprehensive etc is part of the problem. It’s all about being elite these days in whatever you do. This is down to parents too. Many will be happy for their children to be pushed. It’s extremely unhealthy. We can’t just blame the schools. 

[along for the ride mum]

‘A little thick of ankle’ that was a comment that was made about and in front of my size 6 yr11 

“upper school wasn’t going to work for her because she’s a little thick of ankle”

Edited September 11, 2023 by along for the ride mum

[Lindsay]

That is a shockingly insensitive thing for any adult (let alone a teacher with professional duties - assuming that is who it was) to say to any teenager.  And the fact they continue to think it appropriate is a problem. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

15 minutes ago, Graceful said:

The marks change each year for grammar schools. It depends on the level of that year. This sort of talk like shining in a comprehensive etc is part of the problem. It’s all about being elite these days in whatever you do. This is down to parents too. Many will be happy for their children to be pushed. It’s extremely unhealthy. We can’t just blame the schools. 

It’s not about being elite at all, when I mentioned ‘shining’. Perhaps it’s the wrong term to use when what I probably meant was ‘thriving’. A child doesn’t have to be top of everything to thrive somewhere. They can be distinctly average to outside observers but be completely happy and settled in themselves. This can absolutely happen in both comprehensive and grammar schools. Would this be acceptable in top vocational schools or would the child be thrown out? Of course the responsibility ultimately lies with the parents. If a child is unhappy or if they feel like something is off, they always have the option to take them out of that situation. This is what at least a couple of the parents in that documentary did. 

[along for the ride mum]

6 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

That is a shockingly insensitive thing for any adult (let alone a teacher with professional duties - assuming that is who it was) to say to any teenager.  And the fact they continue to think it appropriate is a problem. 

A very senior teacher and said in a public area at a time

when parents and other visitors were present. (She did go on to complete upper school). This is not hearsay, I was present, it was said to me 

[Jan McNulty]

This is nothing to do with vocational schools but everyone has their own skill.

 

My cousin failed his 11+ but had always wanted to be a motor mechanic (as they were called in those days) and was superb at his dream job.  I passed my 11+ and really enjoyed my grammar school.  The 10- year old me refused to take the entrance exam for our local independent school because I preferred the uniform at my grammar school!

 

I can see how parents can be swayed by their children - mine were - but sometimes I wonder if the dream is even more the parent's than the child's?

[Janeparent]

26 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

It’s not about being elite at all, when I mentioned ‘shining’. Perhaps it’s the wrong term to use when what I probably meant was ‘thriving’. A child doesn’t have to be top of everything to thrive somewhere. They can be distinctly average to outside observers but be completely happy and settled in themselves. This can absolutely happen in both comprehensive and grammar schools. Would this be acceptable in top vocational schools or would the child be thrown out? Of course the responsibility ultimately lies with the parents. If a child is unhappy or if they feel like something is off, they always have the option to take them out of that situation. This is what at least a couple of the parents in that documentary did. 

Even if the parents decide to remove their child from a school (which we did from Elmhurst) the damage that has already been done can be huge and long-lasting or permanent.

[LinMM]

I don’t want to take this off topic but back in the 50’s when 11 plus was the norm there were no comprehensive schools ….it was Grammar or Secondary Modern! 
I felt I had let my parents down for years as they so badly wanted me to go to the Grammar school( post war highly aspirational parents)  However I was lucky enough to live in the County of Surrey so managed to make this transfer to Grammar a few years down the line (with much parental encouragement and support) but other people in the country were not so lucky as didn’t have “0” level streams in their Secondary Moderns.

I was also struck by the amount of children who hardly got any “0” levels who had spent six years at Grammar School or who even left at 15 before taking any exams at all. 

I think this highlights that trying to predict at the age of 11 what children may achieve at 16 or 18 is extremely hard to do …..in whatever setting. 
 

[mum5678]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

Probably not quite as bad as being written off at 11 as a failure via the 11plus exam in state schools! 
Thankfully no longer exists but you would be surprised at how many people would like to see it reinstated. 

11+ still exists where we live! What's more, if you pass the 11+ you don't necessarily get in at our local boys school, they just take the top 130 scores. My DS got full marks at 11+, nearly all grade 9s at GCSE and the (Grammar) school were furious when he left to go to ballet school at 16 rather than taking A levels (and getting them another bunch of As A*s for their stats!) 😂 

[Ondine]

1 hour ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I therefore know countless numbers of kids who didn’t make the qualifying mark, ended up going to comprehensive schools, and had a more brilliant and rewarding time than a number of those who go to grammar.

 A reminder that in the 'old days' those not selected for 'the grammar' were sent to secondary moderns not comprehensives, and most left with few or no qualifications at all. What qualifications which were taken were not in the main those taken at grammar school.

 

Of course there is the issue of how comprehensive a system it is when grammar schools exist alongside.

 

Leaving age was gradually raised...  14, then 15 then 16.

 

I do appreciate that there are those who have achieved a great deal in life who 'failed' at 11, but the very idea of being an official failure at 11 is surely abhorrent.

 

The terminology current in those days was most certainly you 'passed' or you 'failed'. 

 

We won't even begin to go to the dark side  where some children passed but parents couldn't afford the uniform so the success of 'passing' still meant going to the secondary mod.

 

Tangential to the ballet school issue but I post this for information as the subject was raised.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Ondine

[LinMM]

You do have to laugh mum 5678 ….it was my dance teacher who was furious ….as when I got most of my O levels at 15 and it was then all about transferring to the Grammar school and an academic career beckoning that  I just decided to stop all the dancing I had been doing literally almost overnight! She couldn’t understand why I couldn’t just do at least one class a week… but you know adolescents it’s all or nothing lol!! 
 

Sorry must get this thread back on topic especially as programme coming up very soon now! 

[Ondine]

33 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

I can see how parents can be swayed by their children - mine were - but sometimes I wonder if the dream is even more the parent's than the child's?

 

I don't often contribute to the Doing Dance' part of this forum, though I drop in and read it,  but my goodness that is certainly the impression given by some.

 

[mum5678]

It's a tough watch, but very necessary I think to shed light on the issues. I really hope we start to see some change and start appreciating dancers for their actual talent and artistry rather than what their bodies look like. Personally I LOVE watching dancer who don't fit the stereotype and dare to look a little different.

 

I applaud the interviewees for their bravery and hope they find some peace after their trauma. I really hope there's some deeper digging into some of the other issues at these 'elite' schools. 

[Ruby Foo]

2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

It is six years since my DD had to leave full-time ballet training (is 6 years 'several' or more than several?) and she still feels unable to talk about it. She won't go there - she says she just can't even bear to think about how awful it was. She's shut it away, and got on with her life outside the dance world.

 

I have previously been approached by a journalist, however in view of my (now adult) DD's feelings on the matter, we were not able to assist them.

 

'Recollections may vary' sums it up very well when it comes to what I imagine would have been her school's view of what happened to her. They were incapable of seeing her point of view at the time, let alone now.

 

I'm out this evening, so will try to watch the programme when I can. I expect my blood pressure to rise to boiling point.

 
This is the same for us. We could not assist with this program as my dc simply cannot talk about what she refers to as ‘total trauma’. At 18, after a year of bullying in upper school and being told her body was not suitable for ballet ( nothing to do with weight issues) and finally being the only girl to be assessed out in 2nd year she is beginning again - taking A levels and planning a new life. 

[Emlojasa]

My child left RBS more than several years ago, and they know one of the contributors. I was sad to see that many of the issues when they were at the school continue. The truth is things have been highlighted before, the RBS was criticised by Ofsted some years ago, because not all staff had DBS checks, but I doubt if anyone outside of the community were aware of that. If a state school had been found to have staff with no DBS check they would have been graded inadequate and Ofsted would have returned regularly to ensure that any issues were addressed, this did not happen at RBS. Then the Richmond safeguarding team contacted numerous parents, including myself, about issues at the school, but again very little (to my knowledge) happened with that either. Schools like RBS believe that the kids are lucky to be there, when in truth the schools are lucky to have them. My child was relatively unscathed by their time at the RBS, they experienced things they would not have experienced elsewhere, and were generally very happy at the school, but they were probably the exception and they were more than aware of the things other kids suffered. My child is still in contact with many of their friends from the school and some of them still suffer quite significantly now because of things that happened at the school.

 

[along for the ride mum]

12 minutes ago, mum5678 said:

I applaud the interviewees for their bravery and hope they find some peace after their trauma. I really hope there's some deeper digging into some of the other issues at these 'elite' schools. 

 
Absolutely, I really hope so too! There are so many other issues which also cause trauma and those affected ( parents and dancers ) also deserve a voice along with the brave young people on this programme 

[Dreaming]

This is heartbreaking to watch. Whether the schools caused or contributed towards the mental health issues and eating disorders, it is clear that there is a lack of ongoing support available.

Unfortunately, the programme is just the tip of the iceberg. My DD was at a very small dance school and was badly bullied to the extent that she started self harming. She was told she had thick thighs. She was told she had bad turnout to the extent that she would never dance properly. Water was sprayed on her face whilst she was having a panic attack. She was told to stop self harming and take her emotions out on her dance.

Having moved schools, she is now a fabulous dancer but the mental health scars are still there.

Exactly as is reported in the BBC programme, the teacher justifies the bullying by saying the dance world is competitive and by saying they were treated that way, and it didn’t do them any harm. Clearly it did some harm if the teacher see this as acceptable behaviour. Perhaps the teachers need support too on how to break the cycle? 

[Ondine]

Kathryn Morgan's story is worth reading / watching.  She's in the US.  If anyone thinks this issue is a British one, it isn't.

 

Dancers Say It’s Time to Talk About Ballet Companies That Body-Shame

 

https://observer.com/2020/11/ballet-companies-body-shaming-kathryn-morgan/

 

After posting the video, hordes of dancers, many from Miami City Ballet, joined her in speaking out against the various types of body-shaming they’ve experienced from artistic staff, and the dark mental health path they were led down as a result. In an Instagram post, dancer Aldeir Monteiro said that while he was at MCB he was told his legs didn’t have the right shape for the stage. Brianna Abruzzo wrote on her Instagram that leadership at MCB didn’t believe she was losing weight, even after she brought charts from her trainer. Chloe Freytag shared her story as well, saying that she was told that her legs were “too large to fit in fifth position.”

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Ondine

[abitwornout]

I can’t imagine how difficult it must be for children to go through puberty surrounded by a wall of mirrors day after day . 

[Richard LH]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

Probably not quite as bad as being written off at 11 as a failure via the 11plus exam in state schools! 
Thankfully no longer exists but you would be surprised at how many people would like to see it reinstated. 

Yes as @mum5678 and others point out, the 11 plus does still exist in some areas, and even good scores don't necessarily secure a place. A grandson of mine recently took it but his score wasn't quite high enough to secure one of the (very limited) places available in a local Grammar school.

With selection by an exam system, it is inevitable that many won't be able to go to their preferred school, and I don't think it is fair to refer to such children as "written off at 11 as a failure", thus suggesting they aren't expected to have any success academically, or in later employment, via a non-Grammar route.

Arguably there is still selection under the comprehensive system, albeit by means of parents choosing to live in the "right" catchment area, often meaning they are able to afford a higher priced housing locality.

 

2 hours ago, Lindsay said:

It is about a culture where all students except the chosen few are, for whatever reason, written off as 'failures' in their teens.  The damage that can cause is not easily removed.

 Isn't it particularly the case with a vocational school, such as  a ballet school, that a progressive and  seemingly  severe  selection process is inevitable, given the limited number of ultimate opportunities for a dancing career? Again that is not to say the non-selected are "written off as failures", rather, that a particular career path may not be for them. One would hope, though, that selection is always managed sensitively and that students are helped by teachers and parents alike NOT to see themselves as failures, and helped to make rewarding alternative choices. Where this is not happening, for whatever reason, clearly things need to change.

 

[Bellaboo]

4 hours ago, Millicent said:

In some ways the program has added nothing new to what we already know. Ballet dancers are much more likely to suffer from eating disorders. Some of the dancers featured here admitted that they had eating disorders or mental health issues before they started at the schools, so I would question the wisdom of sending them there in the first place. I am in no way excusing the schools by saying that, but just questioning whether it's ever going to be a healthy environment for a child to go into if they are already struggling with eating disorders. 

 

However, any sunlight on these issues that plague the entire industry should be welcomed. The focus on the "right" body, which certain schools seem to focus on as more important than facility, technique or artistry, definitely needs to be challenged. The mention of the teachers' comments on weight is very concerning, particularly those that stray into bullying. Sadly, the people who are making the casting decisions that focus on "body type" are the people we need to convince to change. And with the power they wield how do we make that happen?

 

I thought one of the most interesting points was the coded messages given to dancers. Like not being fit enough or needed to lengthen their lines. I have heard similar coded messages about why dancers have been assessed out, including hiding behind qualities such as supposed poor turnout or other anatomical issues that surely the school would have already known about at auditions. I think there is a culture where everyone knows what that means but they think they can get away with it as long as though they don't actually come out and say "you're not thin enough for our aesthetic".

 

In fairness, the BBC notes that "both schools dispute the accounts given to the BBC". And the schools have no real right of reply as they are bound by confidentiality towards the students. I'm not questioning the authenticity of the people interviewed, just that we've only heard one side of the story.

 

One side of the story from only a few yes, but we can vouch for it and I’m sure many more will come forward with complaints now too. 

[Drdee]

There is also a radio ‘File on 4’ programme that accompanies the Panorama one. Some of the points are further explored. Both schools really need more advice on how to respond to these programmes empathetically and more professionally.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Drdee
Last minute addition

[Bellaboo]

3 hours ago, WhatsThePointe said:

I'm sure I've said it before, but I really don't understand why whoever is in charge of the MDS scheme doesn't seem to 'check up' on how well the providers are performing. The turnover of kids in these school in some year groups in particular is massive. The amount of money that has gone into funding the ones who then leave must be huge. I know they can't guarantee everyone will stick it out, but these aren't just an odd child here and there who decides it's not for them. There are sooooo many.  If I was handing out hundreds of thousands in grants to schools and everyone was quitting before the end I would be looking into why. How come that doesn't happen?

Many are scared to speak out 

[annekh510]

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

Kathryn Morgan's story is worth reading / watching.  She's in the US.  If anyone thinks this issue is a British one, it isn't.

 

As far as I can recall KM has never mentioned any talk about her body in school, or in her early NYCB days. Even when she had weight problems at NYCB, she doesn’t seem to have issues with the company over that. I think that it was a clear illness may have helped both her perception and their management. Her only issue with NYCB is possibly them not taking her back in 2014.

 

This is from someone who never was extremely skinny. Even other NYCB dancers who have spoken about issues within the company don’t seem to have mentioned issues within the school. 
 

It’s definitely not a UK only problem, but US culture is so different in general, including how schools are run - no top ballet school attempts to provide academic education as well. Additionally, although many schools have dorms, that’s also typically partially separate from the school.

 

That said I’ve heard plenty of bad things said about US ballet schools, just not the big name ones.

[DVDfan]

It seems to me that a big part of the problem is that children at vocational schools have entered into a world where nothing matters except ballet. Even when teachers are kindly and avoid verbal bullying, there is an underlying assumption that there is no other way to be, no other life that has validity except that of a professional dancer. And you're in a world where young hopefuls are regularly discarded and replaced - which is not common practice anywhere else - so the stress is enormous.

 

To answer one or two of the previous posts, it is extremely difficult for parents to know what is happening to their children at day school, let alone boarding school. They are not in the classroom, the children do not understand what is happening well enough to explain it clearly enough to a parent who is a stranger to that world, and they buy into the ethos of the school - as parents we generally tell them to. 

Schools are responsible for what happens during the school day, and doubly so when it is the behaviour of a teacher that is the problem.

 

 

[Lifeafterballet]

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6

 

😢

Edited September 11, 2023 by Lifeafterballet

[Tulip]

I’ve just watched the documentary and sadly everything the dancers said was true. Body dysmorphia, eating disorders, mental torture, all sounds very familiar. As a parent I heard it, but didn’t recognise the meaning behind the code words. My husband couldn’t watch this documentary, because we were all affected by it.  

[Drdee]

17 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6

 

😢

There are some brilliant as well as sobering interviews in this programme with some concrete advice for change.

[Tulip]

On 06/09/2023 at 17:08, oncnp said:

While I do not doubt the horror stories told on this forum, there are two sides to every story and I'd like to hear the other one

Well that might require naming teachers, then they could defend their behaviour, it certainly would be interesting to hear their side of events. 

[Out-the-other-side]

2 minutes ago, Tulip said:

Well that might require naming teachers, then they could defend their behaviour, it certainly would be interesting to hear their side of events. 

And whilst they remain unnamed, the good, compassionate teachers who are at these schools are living under this cloud which is also incredibly unfair. 

[LinMM]

Well I’ve finally seen the programme and found it much more moving than I thought I would. How that really beautiful dancer ended up on a hospital ward looking at deaths door was particularly hard to take 😥
I know some girls may already have a degree of eating disorder even before taking up places at schools like RBS and Elmhurst but schools do have a duty of care to their students and should see when things have gone too far….especially where pupils are boarding and away from home for some time. 

 

I was at Yorkshire Ballet Summer School once a few years back and there was a really lovely expressive dancer there who had just been assessed out of RBS (just happened to be sitting next to mum) I had expressed to my friend who is that lovely dancer when the mum said that’s my daughter. I both could and could not see why she had just been assessed out. Her body shape although entirely “normal” and slim for most people was not that extreme aesthetic ballet look. However she was both an authentic and beautiful dancer to quote some qualities Luke Jennings mentioned. 
I never did find out what happened to her but I sincerely hope she managed to forge a career for herself. 
 

It’s difficult as I don’t want to slate the RBS who do produce such beautiful dancers but as I think Lindsey said earlier there has to be a way of providing elite training with good modern teaching practice and Ballet Companies have to be open to different body types… though there is of course a realistic limit to the size of classical female dancers they certainly don’t have to be “stick thin”  which in fact can be rather uncomfortable to look at. 

I think Watkin at ENB was hinting at this in his aims for the Company which is a good sign at least.