Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Geoff]

MODERATOR NOTE: To avoid confusion as to the actual content of this programme, discussion prior to its broadcast is now in a separate thread, here:

 

 

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As this thread is now active again, might I make a request on behalf of those outside Britain who will be unable to see this programme (the BBC is very strict at policing its international reach)?
 

Some people say they know ways around the BBC restrictions but many will not. As it seems this documentary may be of international relevance (or at least interest) perhaps someone who is planning to watch it could take a few notes and post a summary of the comment? 

[capybara]

8 minutes ago, Geoff said:

As this thread is now active again, might I make a request on behalf of those outside Britain who will be unable to see this programme (the BBC is very strict at policing its international reach)?
 

Some people say they know ways around the BBC restrictions but many will not. As it seems this documentary may be of international relevance (or at least interest) perhaps someone who is planning to watch it could take a few notes and post a summary of the comment? 

Can you not get iPlayer @Geoff ?

Since so much of the programme is derived from the perspective of individual former students, I think that attempting a summary would be both tricky and unwise.

[Swanwings]

It has become available on iplayer already, I have just watched it. I think it is very tricky to summarise as @capybara has said.

[Sim]

17 minutes ago, Geoff said:

As this thread is now active again, might I make a request on behalf of those outside Britain who will be unable to see this programme (the BBC is very strict at policing its international reach)?
 

Some people say they know ways around the BBC restrictions but many will not. As it seems this documentary may be of international relevance (or at least interest) perhaps someone who is planning to watch it could take a few notes and post a summary of the comment? 

I will have a go at a summary (iPlayer is not available outside of the UK):

 

It is a short programme, half an hour.  It concentrates on body shaming and eating disorders.  It interviews a few ex-dance students who suffered from these afflictions whilst at the RBS or Elmhurst.  It concludes that although schools are saying things are changing (and have), that not enough has changed, and change isn't happening quickly enough.  Whereas both schools refused to be interviewed for the programme, statements from both were read out at the end.  The schools both said that they have robust systems in place to ensure their students are happy and properly nourished and looked after physically and emotionally.  The RBS did a 'recollections may vary' by stating that their records show that certain individual situations were different from what was stated on the programme, but that they couldn't elaborate because of confidentiality issues.  The students all attended the schools several years ago, but explained the continuing damage their experiences have had on their lives and wellbeing.  The programme did state that many students have happy experiences at the schools.  However, this programme is about 'the dark side' so they were not interviewed.   

[Out-the-other-side]

15 minutes ago, Geoff said:

As this thread is now active again, might I make a request on behalf of those outside Britain who will be unable to see this programme (the BBC is very strict at policing its international reach)?
 

Some people say they know ways around the BBC restrictions but many will not. As it seems this documentary may be of international relevance (or at least interest) perhaps someone who is planning to watch it could take a few notes and post a summary of the comment? 

This article, previewing some content of the programme, appeared on the bbc website this morning. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66720433

[Out-the-other-side]

1 minute ago, Sim said:

It is a short programme, half an hour.  It concentrates on body shaming and eating disorders.  It interviews a few ex-dance students who suffered from these afflictions whilst at the RBS or Elmhurst.  It concludes that although schools are saying things are changing (and have), that not enough has changed, and change isn't happening quickly enough.  Whereas both schools refused to be interviewed for the programme, statements from both were read out at the end.  The schools both said that they have robust systems in place to ensure their students are happy and properly nourished and looked after physically and emotionally.  The RBS did a 'recollections may vary' by stating that their records show that certain individual situations were different from what was stated on the programme, but that they couldn't elaborate because of confidentiality issues.  The students all attended the schools several years ago, but explained the continuing damage their experiences have had on their lives and wellbeing.  The programme did state that many students have happy experiences at the schools.  However, this programme is about 'the dark side' so they were not interviewed.   

Some  students only left in 2020/21

[Sim]

Just now, Out-the-other-side said:

Some  students only left in 2020/21

Yes, but that is still two or three years ago.

[LinMM]

If you go to the BBC news page and scroll down the items there …the one referencing this panorama programme pops up and has quite a long piece about it including actual contributors to the programme. This gives the main picture of what the programme is focussed on. 
I still haven’t seen the programme yet though it’s now available on IPlayer already ….I will watch tonight but hope it isn’t going to turn out to be just a single issue affair rather than more of an overview of the schools and how they provide value for money etc. 

[Sim]

2 minutes ago, LinMM said:

If you go to the BBC news page and scroll down the items there …the one referencing this panorama programme pops up and has quite a long piece about it including actual contributors to the programme. This gives the main picture of what the programme is focussed on. 
I still haven’t seen the programme yet though it’s now available on IPlayer already ….I will watch tonight but hope it isn’t going to turn out to be just a single issue affair rather than more of an overview of the schools and how they provide value for money etc. 

Please see my summary above....the programme was about the negatives, i.e. eating disorders, body shaming and bullying.  It didn't concentrate on anything else.  The title says it all; it's about the dark side.

[Out-the-other-side]

4 minutes ago, Sim said:

Yes, but that is still two or three years ago.

It is not several years however 

[Sim]

1 minute ago, Out-the-other-side said:

It is not several years however 

That's your opinion. I would say three is several.  And I really don't want to get into a debate about it.  There are more important issues to be discussed.

[Out-the-other-side]

10 minutes ago, Sim said:

That's your opinion. I would say three is several.  And I really don't want to get into a debate about it.  There are more important issues to be discussed.

If we are going to be pedantic, several is more than 3 but my daughter, very much impacted and in the same cohort as one of the dancers featured left 2 years ago. Regardless of how long ago the abuse took place, (I choose my words carefully as someone who deals with safeguarding in education as a daily part of my job)  these students and their families are still very much living with the impact of this whether that is 1, 2 or 10 years down the line . The issue is that the culture has not changed, that teachers known to have these outdated practices are still working with vulnerable young people both within and outside of these institutions and that unless this is acknowledged we will still be having these conversations in 10 years time. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Out-the-other-side

[LinMM]

Thanks Sim …I keep forgetting it’s called “the Dark Side” 

At some point in the future I’d love to see a programme of how these top vocational schools plan and carry out the development and overall nurture of the individual talents of their students whilst training there. 

[Sim]

4 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

If we are going to be pedantic, several is more than 3 but my daughter, very much impacted and in the same cohort as one of the dancers featured left 2 years ago. Regardless of how long ago the abuse took place, (I choose my words carefully as someone who deals with safeguarding in education as a daily part of my job)  these students and their families are still very much living with the impact of this whether that is 1, 2 or 10 years down the line . The issue is that the culture has not changed, that teachers known to have these outdated practices are still working with vulnerable young people both within and outside of these institutions and that unless this is acknowledged we will still be having these conversations in 10 years time. 

I have no intention of being pedantic, so I am not going to argue the meaning of the word 'several.'  You bring up some good points so let's concentrate on those.  I was not implying in my post that things have got better because the students interviewed are all ex-students.  Someone asked for a summary, so I gave as much detail as possible.  I am not in a position to say whether things have changed and what is going on now.  

[Out-the-other-side]

Just now, Sim said:

I have no intention of being pedantic, so I am not going to argue the meaning of the word 'several.'  You bring up some good points so let's concentrate on those.  I was not implying in my post that things have got better because the students interviewed are all ex-students.  Someone asked for a summary, so I gave as much detail as possible.  I am not in a position to say whether things have changed and what is going on now.  

Thank you for clarifying. I think those of us who have children affected are just so anxious that this become the moment of change. 

[bangorballetboy]

7 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

If we are going to be pedantic, several is more than 3 

 

As a professional pedant, I would say that statement is not entirely correct.  Whilst several is more than 3 in the same way a square is a rectangle, most dictionaries say that several is more than 2.

[Guest oncnp]

5 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

If we are going to be pedantic, several is more than 3 

While we're being pedantic....several is variously defined as > 2 and > 3 so you are both right. 

[Out-the-other-side]

I should just also add, as has been referenced in many previous threads, it is practically impossible to speak out whilst still within the system. 

[batmanballetshoes]

Brave students to speak out.

 

[Anon2]

Having just watched and sadly knowing the trauma these young people have suffered, I applaud them for finding the strength to speak up and hope all are now getting the support they need to heal.  And the parents of Jack, so courageous.

I hope the schools are changing but I don’t think I will ever be convinced they can be whilst the teaching and pastoral staff have been through the same system and think they are un damaged. It is a toxic environment. 
 

[Jewel]

I've avoided contributing because my family is still unpicking the trauma caused by one such school.  The culture was toxic for both staff and students but we have had to sign a legal thing not to talk about it.

 

I doubt much will change, excuses will be made and they will all continue to make legal threats/get rid of anyone who tries to whistleblow.

[alison]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

I still haven’t seen the programme yet though it’s now available on IPlayer already ….I will watch tonight but hope it isn’t going to turn out to be just a single issue affair rather than more of an overview of the schools and how they provide value for money etc. 

 

As I pointed out, the programme is only half an hour long (I'm sure in the good old days Panorama used to be an hour), and there's a limit to how much they can cover in that time.

[DancingWellies]

Quote

"If you're told you're not good enough, you're useless, constantly… that gets hard-wired in."

This quote from the BBC article stood out for me and is the nub of the issue.

[Beezie]

Agree with LinMM.  In a sport/art that is so synonymous with physical appearance, I’d be interested to hear what ‘good’ looks like.

 

I’ve thought a lot about this topic and still cannot get my head around it.  Is it the Balanchine body ideal?  …or the fact that dance is inherently about the physical appearance of the dancer, so any ideal will be unachievable to some?  Or the historical analogy that the dancer is a quiet and suffering muse, to be molded by a choreographer…..which oozes of disempowerment.  Or all of the above?

[Betty]

It is a very upsetting programme and I’m very sorry to all of you that have entered a ballet school with such hope and joy for ballet and emerged with traumatic mental health issues. It is a disgrace that this has been tolerated and covered up for so long and continues to be minimized, brushed away as an individual problem about which institutions have different memories/records. Not good enough.

I do hope this is a moment for wider investigation and change - raising awareness is a crucial first step. All the best to everyone affected by this issue. 

[richieN]

 

3 minutes ago, Beezie said:

Agree with LinMM.  In a sport/art that is so synonymous with physical appearance, I’d be interested to hear what ‘good’ looks like.

 

I’ve thought a lot about this topic and still cannot get my head around it.  Is it the Balanchine body ideal?  …or the fact that dance is inherently about the physical appearance of the dancer, so any ideal will be unachievable to some?  Or the historical analogy that the dancer is a quiet and suffering muse, to be molded by a choreographer…..which oozes of disempowerment.  Or all of the above?

Royal score on "quality of classical ballet aesthetic lines". It'll be buried in that criteria.

[Drdee]

I applaud the 50 dancers who spoke to Mark Daly (reporter) that has shaped the programme. I am so impressed with the way those interviewed could articulate themselves. I hope that ballet schools show this as part of their curriculum as well in teacher training.

[The red shoes]

8 minutes ago, Drdee said:

I applaud the 50 dancers who spoke to Mark Daly (reporter) that has shaped the programme. I am so impressed with the way those interviewed could articulate themselves. I hope that ballet schools show this as part of their curriculum as well in teacher training.

One of the schools has indeed agreed to let their students watch it i when it airs if they feel they want to with staff, counsellors etc on hand to answer any questions they may have and support them . 

[Laura_ballet]

Really sad to watch as an ex elm and having seen and heard all this whilst I was training there many years ago 

[LinMM]

I think Ballet is particularly difficult area precisely because it is so body focussed …..which for practical purposes means keeping slim and light….then the classical style demanding perfection from the body on another level. These are givens for Professional success in ballet. 
Of course anybody can actually do ballet and reach a very good standard too and without being in any way ultra slim etc!! But for those few who hope to make it at career level there are these demands which are always going to be there. 

However there is definitely a way of teaching which doesn’t involve putting the students down constantly …and creating a negative atmosphere ……there’s already enough for them to contend with….and most students are only concerned with their improvement so shouldn’t exactly be difficult to teach!! Are most of the teachers like this? Hopefully not. 
In the real educational world teachers are constantly appraised and assessed and have to deal with their shortcomings or risk losing their job! 

 

However there is still no guarantee of success at career level when students are taken into a school as young as 11 ….even with the most nurturing and inspirational of teachers….things are in constant flux. 

From 11-18 is a very long time in the demanding world of ballet.  

 

[Lindsay]

I also think it is very ill-advised of these schools (both of which have let cameras in on many occasions when they could be sure a flattering picture would emerge) not to engage with Panorama beyond a few very defensive statements.  Much more confidence would be engendered in the parents of future applicants if they went on camera to say that they were undertaking a root-and-branch overhaul, (including compulsory training for all teachers no matter how prestigious their own dancing career) on how to best combine the provision of elite classical training with an overriding principle that student physical and mental health must always be prioritised.  
 

It is clear that the schools are thinking only of reputation management and trying to limit liability for potential lawsuits.  That is exactly the same knee jerk reaction we saw from the specialist music schools when multiple stories of abuse at several of those institutions came out a decade ago - my family was personally involved in that mess and it took years to unravel but the schools were subsequently roundly criticised in a national inquiry and had to settle many lawsuits from former students.  The arrogance and complacency of governors and leaders of those schools giving testimony to the inquiry was shocking and sadly I am seeing real echoes of that attitude in these responses from ballet schools. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Lindsay
Edited for typos

[Sisterduff]

2 hours ago, Jewel said:

I've avoided contributing because my family is still unpicking the trauma caused by one such school.  The culture was toxic for both staff and students but we have had to sign a legal thing not to talk about it.

 

I doubt much will change, excuses will be made and they will all continue to make legal threats/get rid of anyone who tries to whistleblow.

We left Elmhurst in July. Nothing had changed. Unfortunately the senior management team had behind the guise of “we were not aware”. 😢 

 

[richieN]

6 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

no matter how prestigious their own dancing career

 

You strike to the heart of the matter - institutional deference to ex-ballet stars and those with letters after their name.