Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Medora]

But what about partnering? I know the Russian schools in Russia have a maximum weight limit for partner work, to protect the men from injury. It’s not just about having a certain look, it’s also about functionality ? Can someone more knowledgeable weigh in?

[Anna C]

2 hours ago, Janeparent said:

Even if the parents decide to remove their child from a school (which we did from Elmhurst) the damage that has already been done can be huge and long-lasting or permanent.

I concur.  We removed our daughter from a 16+ training establishment after she suffered a serious injury.  While diagnosing her injury, the Consultant ordered bone scans and body fat tests.  Daughter’s body fat was dangerously low, and her skin almost had a greyish tinge to it.  Yet it was probably the first time she was really happy with her weight and how her legs looked.  
 

It was a hellishly long recovery for her, mentally and physically.  Even now, she periodically struggles with body image issues.  She said to me the other day “Ballet really screws you up.”

 

To answer the question “Why do parents send their children to these schools?” My daughter started ballet at 3 and a half.  Like the young people featured on Panorama, she was incredibly focused, a perfectionist, intelligent, self-disciplined, and loved ballet.  I was led by her, and I never wanted her to say “Mum, why didn’t you let me try.”

 

Do I wish I’d never let her go to that “school”?  Absolutely.  Do I wish I had complained when an Associates teacher yanked her head back by her hair?  Likewise when the same teacher physically bent her back too far.  Likewise when her local teacher crossed boundaries on more than one occasion.
But the ballet world is small.  Word gets round.  And if we parents are not from the ballet world, we don’t know what we don’t know.  Nobody wants to be labelled “difficult” for fear of being assessed out/ignored/shamed/punished/not cast/not given a contract/not given a teaching job.

 

That’s undoubtedly one of the reasons why Panorama didn’t feature talking heads by current students or dancers.  And who can blame them?  From 11 or 16, probably right up until you reach Principal, the unseen axe is there, hanging over your head.  Don’t rock the boat.

 

With regards to what tonight’s programme focused on, what’s the solution?  Why are schools so seemingly obsessed with thinness and weight, shaming children and teenagers for puberty-related changes to their body that they can do absolutely NOTHING about when at company level, the dancers all have different amounts of muscle, different measurements, different shapes?  Is this yet another disconnect between Lower School, Upper School, and Company?  Should we do away with lower school training altogether?  
 

Obviously things aren’t going to change overnight, but - rather depressingly - unless there are DRASTIC changes to how we treat dancing children and teenagers, I don’t hold out much hope that things will be all that different in five or ten years time.

[capybara]

One cannot help but feel for the students featured in this programme and for the many others whose experiences are spoken of regularly on the forum.

More than half a century ago, I auditioned for the RBS on the recommendation of my teacher.
It was done on an individual basis with tests covering classical ballet, ad hoc dancing to music, and ability to tell a given short story through mime. My turnout and capacity to point my feet were assessed, as was the circumference of my wrist. My mother’s body was also sized up and, when asked why, we were told that, although they were interested in me dance-wise and expressively, they were concerned that my body to legs ratio was not right for ballet and my neck was too short. It seems that my mother’s physique confirmed their doubts as I got a “No”. But the explanation my mother elicited (and which was apparently rarely given) did make sense to us then. I don’t recall feeling rejected and quickly turned to amateur operatics and water sports instead.

 

But the world around ballet has changed fundamentally and young people’s dreams seem to be more intense and their expectations of themselves higher than back in my day. There is also a heightened sense of self awareness combined, perhaps, with a greater reliance on the opinions of others in relation to self-esteem and an increased vulnerability where criticism is concerned. Thus, it might be difficult for even the best and most compassionate of teachers (who are inevitably at least a generation older) to understand fully the nature of every individual in their care ‘today’.

 

And I think that parents might be more ambitious and protective than in days of yore. That is completely understandable but, while watching some ad hoc ‘masterclasses’ attended by parents, I have seen behaviour from some mothers which, shall I say, surprised me. It was almost certainly putting additional pressure on their child to an extent which made me feel very uneasy.

 

I also know two teachers (who are currently implicated by association) sufficiently well to have been discussing these issues with them over the years, not just as a result of this programme. Let’s just say that perspectives do indeed differ in certain key respects.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by capybara

[Peanut68]

I’m certainly not more knowledgeable but my thoughts on partnering is that there is a suitable someone out there for all….companies can more widely reflect the real world with a mix of body shapes & sizes & yes this will mean a variety of weights that might need to be lifted. Science suggests therefore relevant muscle strength will need to be matched. It’s just gym sense not rocket science. And we all benefit from admiring artistry, athleticism, technique & dramatic acting from a wide range of people who closely reflect the real world bodies we all have 

[Lindsay]

With due respect for your experience Capybara I think those who are not selected in the first place for whatever reason are a different case from those who find themselves among the “chosen few”, move away from home at a young age and then have their dreams and often their sense of self-worth broken down by the system which is supposed to help them reach their fullest potential. 
 

And I don’t accept that “kids were more resilient in the past”.  They were often broken and suffered in silence, and in many cases engaged in self-destructive behaciour.  And in other cases replicated the bullying behaviours as teachers themselves.  

[annekh510]

6 minutes ago, Medora said:

But what about partnering? I know the Russian schools in Russia have a maximum weight limit for partner work, to protect the men from injury. It’s not just about having a certain look, it’s also about functionality ? Can someone more knowledgeable weigh in?

This is a mixture of things. A dancer gets herself a lot of the way up in lifts, the man catches her and carries it on, kind of like the second stage of a rocket. The challenge at schools is that boys develop a little later than girls and also put on more muscle over time, so a 21 year old male dancer doesn’t look like an 18 year old one.

 

When you’re learning, whilst for basic lifts the girls technique is quite straightforward, when and how to catch is a bit more complicated. It’s definitely going to help the boys if the girls are lighter, but not much, 51kg is only 2% more than 50kg, a girl can add that amount with a strong plié. Also 50kg is unrealistic for over about 5’6”. 
 

So functionality is a concern, but if we look to broadway and other dance forms, plenty of slim but not 50kg ladies are getting lifted and not injuring their partners, but their partners are full grown men, not developing teens.

[Anna C]

4 hours ago, Graceful said:

These schools aren’t really attached to companies. Especially in the lower school. And there has been many discussions on this forum how the British kids rarely get into the upper school. So is it all a bit of a pipe dream and are parents blinkered to it?

If I remember rightly, @LukeJennings wrote about this issue back in 2012 (?) and, 11 years later, not much seems to have changed in this regard.

[LinMM]

If we are going to accept more realistic body shapes and weight for women then this is bound to have a knock on affect for male dancers. We need more variety there too …at least some taller and stronger men within a company which I think is starting to happen. 

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

A post on this thread is hidden while it is under review for being thought to contravene the Acceptable Use Policy and/or forum moderation policy.

[Peanut68]

9 minutes ago, LinMM said:

If we are going to accept more realistic body shapes and weight for women then this is bound to have a knock on affect for male dancers. We need more variety there too …at least some taller and stronger men within a company which I think is starting to happen. 

Exactly! 

[Kerfuffle]

20 minutes ago, LinMM said:

If we are going to accept more realistic body shapes and weight for women then this is bound to have a knock on affect for male dancers. We need more variety there too …at least some taller and stronger men within a company which I think is starting to happen. 

I have heard that the Russian schools are also concerned about the men ruining their lines by bulking up their arms too much with muscle. The men definitely need to have the strength developed too to allow for a broader range of female physiques. 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

11 hours ago, Sim said:

That's your opinion. I would say three is several.  And I really don't want to get into a debate about it.  There are more important issues to be discussed.

With respect SIM any form of abuse should be discussed and is an important issue. Current students may not have wanted to participate for obvious reasons. 

[taxi4ballet]

3 hours ago, Dreaming said:

Exactly as is reported in the BBC programme, the teacher justifies the bullying by saying the dance world is competitive and by saying they were treated that way, and it didn’t do them any harm. 

I knew it!

 

I bloomin' well knew they'd come out with that excuse, and I said so earlier in this thread. See my post on Friday at 18.31.

[LinMM]

Hmm have a feeling it’s my post that’s been removed!! Possibly because I mentioned the first name of a dancer! ( But not sure if I remembered the name correctly anyway) 
I did think about this but as it was back in 2013 so ten years ago now I thought would be okay as the dancer concerned must be about 27 by now if still dancing even! 

Edited September 11, 2023 by LinMM

[Ondine]

No doubt at all being a dancer is hard, very hard,  and it can be brutal. Many are called few are chosen etc.

 

And even the chosen ones don't all have it easy.

 

A young Margot Fonteyn had not one but two 'nose jobs' to achieve the required 'look' demanded.

 

Monica Mason?

 

...when she steeled herself to ask Frederick Ashton – now director of the company – why he did not use her more, Ashton claimed, evasively and outrageously that he didn't like Mason's nose. He suggested she might have it fixed. Today Mason enjoys the effrontery of that remark – "imagine me having that conversation with my dancers" – although at the time she almost considered having the surgery.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2011/may/30/monica-mason-ballet-life-interview

 

I wonder how many young people are really prepared for the reality.

 

 

[Anon2]

5 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Hmm have a feeling it’s my post that’s been removed!! Possibly because I mentioned the first name of a dancer! ( But not sure if I remembered the band correctly anyway) 
I did think about this but as it was back in 2013 so ten years ago now I thought would be okay as the dancer concerned must be about 27 by now if still dancing even! 

This are very small year groups, the dancers all know each other. I didn’t report your post but know exactly who you were referring to. 

[taxi4ballet]

35 minutes ago, LinMM said:

If we are going to accept more realistic body shapes and weight for women then this is bound to have a knock on affect for male dancers. We need more variety there too …at least some taller and stronger men within a company which I think is starting to happen. 

A lot of the mental health problems that students (and professional dancers) suffer are as a result of continually being told they aren't trying, they aren't good enough, they aren't ever going to get anywhere. That happens to many dancers, and isn't necessarily to do with their weight or physical appearance. Some students are utterly humiliated in front of their peers, and demoralised to the point that they can't even bring themselves to ask for help.

 

Another big issue is fear. Fear that if they say anything to their parents, then they will be taken out of the school, or that they worry they will have let their parents down. Fear that if they complain or stand up for themselves, their funding will be taken away or assessed out. The fear that nobody likes a troublemaker and if they become known for it, then they will never get a job. The fear that the one thing they live for and have dreamed of since they were a toddler will be taken away from them.

 

So they say nothing. I applaud the bravery of those who have spoken out.

[Lindsay]

5 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Some students are utterly humiliated in front of their peers, and demoralised to the point that they can't even bring themselves to ask for help.

This is absolutely the case and they make no attempt to hide it.  I was once part of an invited group to watch a first year class at Upper School and one young man did more pirouettes than the teacher had asked for and was yelled at and sent to sit out the rest of the class on the floor in the corner.  The fact that the teacher and the other school staff in the room saw no issue with embarrassing a student like that in front of strangers made me wonder what they hell it was like ‘behind closed doors’

[Mummy twinkle toes]

7 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

A lot of the mental health problems that students (and professional dancers) suffer are as a result of continually being told they aren't trying, they aren't good enough, they aren't ever going to get anywhere. That happens to many dancers, and isn't necessarily to do with their weight or physical appearance. Some students are utterly humiliated in front of their peers, and demoralised to the point that they can't even bring themselves to ask for help.

 

Another big issue is fear. Fear that if they say anything to their parents, then they will be taken out of the school, or that they worry they will have let their parents down. Fear that if they complain or stand up for themselves, their funding will be taken away or assessed out. The fear that nobody likes a troublemaker and if they become known for it, then they will never get a job. The fear that the one thing they live for and have dreamed of since they were a toddler will be taken away from them.

 

So they say nothing. I applaud the bravery of those who have spoken out.

Absolutely, these students and families have been brave. They deserve to tell their stories and not have it dismissed as ‘oh it was several years ago’. When you are trying to pick up the pieces it doesn’t matter how long ago it was. 

[Sim]

24 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

With respect SIM any form of abuse should be discussed and is an important issue. Current students may not have wanted to participate for obvious reasons. 

That’s the point I was making.  There are more important issues to discuss. I wasn’t insinuating that things are fine just because no current students are interviewed.  I wouldn’t expect them to be. I was just giving an overview of the programme as requested by Geoff.  

[Sim]

Just now, Mummy twinkle toes said:

Absolutely, these students and families have been brave. They deserve to tell their stories and not have it dismissed as ‘oh it was several years ago’. When you are trying to pick up the pieces it doesn’t matter how long ago it was. 

Again that is not what I was saying. I was in no way “dismissing”  the issues. I was simply trying to describe who the interviewees are. I wish I hadn’t bothered now. 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

1 minute ago, Sim said:

That’s the point I was making.  There are more important issues to discuss. I wasn’t insinuating that things are fine just because no current students are interviewed.  I wouldn’t expect them to be. I was just giving an overview of the programme as requested by Geoff.  

Your summary came across as dismissive even if you did not intend it to be. I know there are even darker things to discuss so any programme that raises awareness is good. It also alerts parents that they need to keep an open dialogue with their dc

[Jan McNulty]

1 minute ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

Absolutely, these students and families have been brave. They deserve to tell their stories and not have it dismissed as ‘oh it was several years ago’. When you are trying to pick up the pieces it doesn’t matter how long ago it was. 

 

Absolutely.  A family member was being bullied in school when she was a very shy 11yo.  I was very worried about her and was talking to a colleague about it.  She started crying and told me that what I was saying brought back what had happened to her 35 or so years earlier.

 

Memories may be hidden away but they can still come back and hit you hard many years later.

[taxi4ballet]

19 minutes ago, Sim said:

That’s the point I was making.  There are more important issues to discuss. I wasn’t insinuating that things are fine just because no current students are interviewed.  I wouldn’t expect them to be. I was just giving an overview of the programme as requested by Geoff.  

No current students would have dared to stick their head above the parapet. It would be the kiss of death for their career, and they know it. 

[Anon2]

24 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

A lot of the mental health problems that students (and professional dancers) suffer are as a result of continually being told they aren't trying, they aren't good enough, they aren't ever going to get anywhere. That happens to many dancers, and isn't necessarily to do with their weight or physical appearance. Some students are utterly humiliated in front of their peers, and demoralised to the point that they can't even bring themselves to ask for help.

 

Another big issue is fear. Fear that if they say anything to their parents, then they will be taken out of the school, or that they worry they will have let their parents down. Fear that if they complain or stand up for themselves, their funding will be taken away or assessed out. The fear that nobody likes a troublemaker and if they become known for it, then they will never get a job. The fear that the one thing they live for and have dreamed of since they were a toddler will be taken away from them.

 

So they say nothing. I applaud the bravery of those who have spoken out.

The comments made by Jack’s parents about how he was called out in class touched a nerve for us. My daughter will now say it was a very rare class if at least half of the students wouldn’t be humiliated by the teacher. You could be praised at the start of class but then the teacher would turn on you. You never knew what made them flip. These are children are 11, 12, 13 years old living away from home. And as Taxi says the children live in fear of mentioning it, the ballet world is very small. They are told constantly how privileged they are to be at the school, there is someone in the wings with more potential just waiting for their place if they rock the boat. They watch it happening to their peers so why shouldn’t it happen to them too. It is after all the normal behaviour of the staff within the school. 
Ofsted visit and tell your child that what they are reporting about how they are treated in class and house  ‘is not that bad and aren’t they lucky to be at the school’ 

 

[Ballet.Parent]

3 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

No current students would have dared to stick their head above the parapet. It would be the kiss of death for their career, and they know it. 

This is the truth. I remember when we raised abuse by a specific teacher (physical and verbal) and an “investigation “ was carried out by the pastoral staff. Very quickly things became even darker for my child. I have so many regrets. We were so scared that we had ruined our child’s life and all that they (and we) had sacrificed from the age of 11 would be for nothing. They have so much power and control over your career. I wish I had realised then that none of it was worth it and maybe the irreparable damage would never have happened. We must never forget we are talking about children away from home and their parents. The body shaming is just a tiny part of the abuse that we witnessed or experienced 

[Sim]

44 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

Your summary came across as dismissive even if you did not intend it to be. I know there are even darker things to discuss so any programme that raises awareness is good. It also alerts parents that they need to keep an open dialogue with their dc

Why would I be dismissive of young people who are clearly still in a lot of emotional pain?  I thought that those who can’t watch the programme would be interested to know if the students are currently at the schools. 
 

I lost two of my three brothers to drugs because of experiences when they were young, so please don’t ever think that I would be dismissive of young people with emotional pain.  I’m very well aware of the potential consequences.  

[Melody]

I wonder how much this really is just at the school level and how much is because a certain body type is required by companies these days, with the sort of gymnastic choreography they're doing, and that schools have to produce the sorts of dancers that the companies want. Especially now that the dancers seem to be taller than they were, which makes some of the lifts (especially involving the man walking around the stage with the woman draped around him) more strenuous unless the dancers are thinner to compensate for the extra height. With companies getting more and more homogeneous, there isn't that much scope in the ballet world for a prospective dancer to look elsewhere without leaving ballet altogether. 

 

It's sad to think that dancers with feminine bodies like Margot Fonteyn and Lynn Seymour might very well not make it through school these days, if they were even accepted in the first place, because the body type is so important. Frederick Ashton did have a grouse about the shapeless dancers he came across later in his career (what he actually said was a bit more X-rated, but that was the general idea). Honestly, when you see a dancer in profile in her tutu, from the neck down it could very easily be a boy- no breasts, no hips. But that's the style Balanchine wanted from the start, hence his baby-ballerina choices very early in his career, and that's what we seem to be stuck with.

 

I don't know how things are in Russia nowadays, but I remember one documentary where a dancer was proudly saying at around midday that she'd had nothing to eat all day but just existed on black coffee, and it cut to a scene in the cafeteria where another dancer took what seemed to be several minutes to choke down one forkful of rice. This is giving youngsters a terrible example - being tall and thin, not eating, existing on black coffee and cigarettes, and having to deal with much more physically challenging choreography requiring all sorts of injury-risking extensions and acrobatics, is just dangerous.

[Ruby Foo]

16 minutes ago, Ballet.Parent said:

This is the truth. I remember when we raised abuse by a specific teacher (physical and verbal) and an “investigation “ was carried out by the pastoral staff. Very quickly things became even darker for my child. I have so many regrets. We were so scared that we had ruined our child’s life and all that they (and we) had sacrificed from the age of 11 would be for nothing. They have so much power and control over your career. I wish I had realised then that none of it was worth it and maybe the irreparable damage would never have happened. We must never forget we are talking about children away from home and their parents. The body shaming is just a tiny part of the abuse that we witnessed or experienced 

This is all so our experience. When it became clear that verbal abuse in class was taking place on a daily basis, my dc, though admitting she wasn’t sure she could take it anymore, begged and begged us not to speak out because it was well known what happened to those who challenged the system. Incidentally none of this related to body shaming and in her experience the school’s education and guidance on nutrition was extremely healthy and helpful. 

[Out-the-other-side]

At the ‘graduation party’ referred to in the programme, my daughter was given the ‘joke’ award of ‘Most Likely to Cry in Class’, so clearly her daily torment and humiliation was a source of amusement for the teacher in question. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Out-the-other-side

[Anon2]

36 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

At the ‘graduation party’ referred to in the programme, my daughter was given the ‘joke’ award of ‘Most Likely to Cry in Class’, so clearly her daily torment and humiliation was a source of amusement for the teacher in question. 

The saddest thing about this comment for me is I’m not shocked. I know that graduation party wasn’t that long ago, I hope your daughter has started her journey of recovery from the trauma. 

[Linnzi5]

I watched this with interest. Panorama used to be much longer, didn't it? Perhaps, because of this I found the documentary did not have enough depth to it - it seemed too brief. Nothing surprised me. Ballet is so much about body image, athleticism, having the 'right line' and look. I don't know a lot about ballet schools, but I have friends whose daughters have been very serious dancers and they have always been extremely slim and conscious of diet and the way they look. I found it sad that the dancers featured have had their lives impacted by their experiences and I hope they can come to terms with these and move forward. The rejections and competitiveness in that world alone must be so hard to bear let alone a pressure to keep slim being suggested. Hopefully, with nutrition being much more at the forefront now, things like eating disorders and mental health are beginning to be  better understood and supported. 

[Linnzi5]

1 hour ago, Out-the-other-side said:

At the ‘graduation party’ referred to in the programme, my daughter was given the ‘joke’ award of ‘Most Likely to Cry in Class’, so clearly her daily torment and humiliation was a source of amusement for the teacher in question. 

This makes me so sad. What a totally inappropriate and unkind award. 'Joke award'? I do not find it amusing at all. I'm sure the intention may well have been humorous, but I don't find it to be so.