Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Kat09]

I think that the problem is , often that no two individuals are the same. A cohort of dancers enter the school and during the 3 years (talking US) follow the same path. Some thrive and some wither. This is why these teachers feel that they do no wrong - they don’t believe in nurture, they believe in doing what they have always done.  Those that aren’t tough and resilient are seen as weak - the insidious passive aggressive comments start in the classroom, weaknesses rather than strengths are identified - self doubt creeps in and spirals - there is no safety net , the gap between the achievers and the also ran widens. Parental involvement is discouraged before ,suddenly, a big black hole appears and it’s too late to stop the spiral of despair - another young life broken, dreams shattered and families left to pick up the pieces. The schools can’t wait for the broken to leave, before graduation if possible, so graduate placements and school success aren’t affected. If you think that you can shield and protect your young dancers, believe me you are wrong - I tried - I failed - it’s been a long road to recovery - I feel for everyone of these young dancers affected and their parents.  We’ve been out of the system for a good few years now but every year there are new examples of a regime that has little interest in change - there are far too many that want to chase their dream whatever the cost, to make a change of policy worthwhile.

panorama is the tip of the iceberg, body shaming just one part of the puzzle, there is so much more that needs addressing.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

32 minutes ago, along for the ride mum said:

teachers ( by which I mean ballet teachers, football coaches, swim teachers, academic teachers, college lecturers etc etc etc ) have a LEGAL and MORAL obligation to protect and promote the welfare of their pupils/ students and to act in an appropriate professional manner!  
A term which I believe might come from the medical sector comes to mind - first do no harm!!

If a teacher at an academic state school were thought to have used inappropriate language to bully or shame a child or publicly humiliate them,  would anyone start to excuse or explain that behaviour by criticising the parents?!! 
Of course not! 
It is the professional adult’s responsibility to regulate their behaviour and to act in a lawful, moral and responsible manner full stop. No excuses! I like the saying quoted earlier ( I think it was from taxi 4 ballet?)  - the only acceptable level of abuse is zero - regardless of what anyone may think of the parenting! Please can we all be cautious that we do not heap parental guilt on top of an already terrible situation! 
(I have chosen my words very carefully here and self edited several times) 
 

Do not forget these institutions, Elmhurst in particular, have nurses who are accountable for their actions and omissions. Where were the nurses and doctors when these particular children were becoming ill? Teachers may not necessarily have the knowledge to manage but mental health nurses should.

[DancerFifi]

16 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

Also on Complaints, the RBS policy states...

"Two things tend to make parents reluctant to complain or to express concerns: 
a) A fear that the School will not see the issue to be important: please be assured that, if it is important to you, it is important to us 
b) A fear that a concern or complaint may lead to repercussions for the student: under no circumstances will the School discriminate against a student because of expressions of concern or complaints. The School is very experienced in ensuring that, if other students are involved (e.g. in an allegation of bullying), there are no repercussions from other quarters. 
This policy seeks to explain the systems we have put in place to give you confidence in our willingness to listen to them and in our determination to be open, honest and fair in our dealings with you. It highlights the routes anyone can follow if they feel that something is not right, that their child or ward is fed up, unhappy, being treated unfairly or bullied, or if they have any other concern or complaint."

 

So fears of repercussions for the student are recognised but (seemingly) comprehensively dismissed. I would hope that if there were such repercussions from teachers, this would lead to  even more complaints and serious repercussions for the teachers themselves.

Richard do you really believe they actually follow these policies they have on paper? Just because they have a policy doesn’t not mean they follow/ implement it. There are very really repercussions for anyone who complains and the children/ students pay the price I have seen it happen so many times. These schools bully and intimate  pupils and parents into being silent! I have had it happen to me in an academic school setting! Schools often don’t show Ofsted the complaints or they manipulate them so that it appears to not be the schools fault. As has been previously said you have a very naive faith in the “system”. You seem determined to defend RBS and dismiss the suffering and trauma of the victims. Of course some parents would have officially complained but when you official complain you’re complaining to the very  people you are complaining about! And Ofsted and Dept for Education are simply not interested. 

[taxi4ballet]

 

When my dd was about 7 in primary school, there was another child who enjoyed pushing her over, treading on her feet, pinching her pencils and so on. We told the teacher and nothing was done. It went on for months.

 

So I complained to the head that she was being bullied, and that the staff weren't doing anything. I had a meeting with her in her office. I told her what was happening and she said: "There is no bullying in this school". She then went on to refer me to their robust anti-bullying policy and their excellent Ofsted reports. 

[Lifeafterballet]

19 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

Do not forget these institutions, Elmhurst in particular, have nurses who are accountable for their actions and omissions. Where were the nurses and doctors when these particular children were becoming ill? Teachers may not necessarily have the knowledge to manage but mental health nurses should.

Elmhurst employed a Registered Mental Health Nurse in one of these young ladies graduating year. So only one ex student on this documentary had access to that kind of support and by then it would have been too late. Prior to that the Medical Centre was run by a General Nurse. 
 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Lifeafterballet

[Richard LH]

11 minutes ago, DancerFifi said:

You seem determined to defend RBS and dismiss the suffering and trauma of the victims.

No I don't think that's fair. I have just tried to set out what the official procedures  are and  explained why I can't understand, given the procedures, why such complaints aren't being reflected in Inspector's reports. I can't see how they would dare to sweep them under the carpet.

[Jewel]

I have emailed evidence of complsints policies not being followed. In fact part of my complaint was that a complaint had not been acknowledged within the published tike frame.

Did you know that if you complain verbally, even if you have a meeting, or if your email does not contain certain phrases then it is not classed as a formal complaint?

 

our issues were nothing to do with eating disorders although body shaming also happened I didn’t know about it. 
 

my child is currently considering their options as they kept a lot of evidence & a detailed log of various events. 
 

 

[taxi4ballet]

Perhaps some parents didn't complain because they knew there was no point, and they would be banging their heads against a brick wall.

 

After my dd's exit from vocational training, we did tell family and friends what had happened, and they were universally appalled. Several said that we should take the school to court, and we did consider doing that, but dd was against the idea. Why? Firstly because she was too psychologically damaged to even think about the prospect of re-living it all again, and secondly because she was too fond of some of the staff.  "But 'X' and 'Y' were really nice to me and I don't want them to get into trouble". We had to abide by her wishes.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

I can say with certainty, for someone who has worked in the broad area of compliance and policy for years, that policies are put in place to protect institutions as much as they are there to protect students. In casework for example, policies are used and often quoted verbatim when complaints arise and as much as I hate to say this, they are there partly there to cover institutions’ and companies’ backs. When a complaint arises, one of the first things that the school or company would check is the policy and was there something that the complainant did not follow. For example’s sake, if a policy says that a complaint should be raised within 2 weeks of an incident, then they would quote this relevant section if the complaint was raised 3 or 4 weeks after.  These are the small print that people don’t read until they’re done for something or when something happens. How many people actually read a school’s set of policies when picking a school for their child? Very few I’d hazard to guess. We are more likely to see the things advertised in big bold letters (Graduate destinations! Exam results! World class reputation! ).  Sometimes publishing a policy is a tick box exercise. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[taxi4ballet]

4 minutes ago, Jewel said:

I have emailed evidence of complsints policies not being followed. In fact part of my complaint was that a complaint had not been acknowledged within the published tike frame.

Did you know that if you complain verbally, even if you have a meeting, or if your email does not contain certain phrases then it is not classed as a formal complaint?

 

I can believe it. They wouldn't talk to me at all until I emailed them asking for a copy of their student welfare and safeguarding policy document. Within half an hour of me sending that email I had a phone call asking me why I wanted it. I told them that we wanted to get our facts straight. They decided that instead of sending it to me, DH and I could go for a meeting with them and they would give it to us then. They were bricking it in that phone call. By the time we got there for the meeting a few days later, not only had they closed ranks and put up the barricades, I never did get that document. 

[Ballet.Parent]

42 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

Do not forget these institutions, Elmhurst in particular, have nurses who are accountable for their actions and omissions. Where were the nurses and doctors when these particular children were becoming ill? Teachers may not necessarily have the knowledge to manage but mental health nurses should.

My experience there was that a nurse was part of the problem 

[Peony]

At our normal school you had to make an ‘informal complaint’ with the principal and they decided whether it would be dismissed or you could take it to formal complaint. Not surprising the majority were dismissed along with all complaints that went to anyone but the principal. There is a lot of playing the system that goes on!

[taxi4ballet]

57 minutes ago, Kat09 said:

I think that the problem is , often that no two individuals are the same. A cohort of dancers enter the school and during the 3 years (talking US) follow the same path. Some thrive and some wither. This is why these teachers feel that they do no wrong - they don’t believe in nurture, they believe in doing what they have always done.  Those that aren’t tough and resilient are seen as weak - the insidious passive aggressive comments start in the classroom, weaknesses rather than strengths are identified - self doubt creeps in and spirals - there is no safety net , the gap between the achievers and the also ran widens. Parental involvement is discouraged before ,suddenly, a big black hole appears and it’s too late to stop the spiral of despair - another young life broken, dreams shattered and families left to pick up the pieces. The schools can’t wait for the broken to leave, before graduation if possible, so graduate placements and school success aren’t affected. If you think that you can shield and protect your young dancers, believe me you are wrong - I tried - I failed - it’s been a long road to recovery - I feel for everyone of these young dancers affected and their parents.  We’ve been out of the system for a good few years now but every year there are new examples of a regime that has little interest in change - there are far too many that want to chase their dream whatever the cost, to make a change of policy worthwhile.

panorama is the tip of the iceberg, body shaming just one part of the puzzle, there is so much more that needs addressing.

Hi Kat, I think my dd knows your dd, although they are a year or two different in age. There's one thing I can add to that list of yours above - the blatant favouritism shown by some teachers towards a handful of students, and the equally blatant ignoring of others.

Edited September 12, 2023 by taxi4ballet

[Kat09]

15 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Hi Kat, I think my dd knows your dd, although they are a year or two different in age. There's one thing I can add to that list of yours above - the blatant favouritism shown by some teachers towards a handful of students, and the equally blatant ignoring of others.

Yes and yes!! Thank goodness we are out the other side - there really is a great life outside of the ballet world - I just wish that the ballet schools would promote that to those who might decide not to pursue the ballet dream or have to, out of necessity change direction. These young dancers have so many transferable skills, so much to offer - there is no need to crush and destroy their self belief and self worth.

Nor , I might add, their love of dance 😢

Edited September 12, 2023 by Kat09
A little more to add

[TwirlyWhirly]

Does anyone know if the Panorama programme included a whistleblowing number / contact for anyone affected by the contents of their programme? 

[Fiz]

I wanted our youngest dd to have all the opportunities that I did not have as a child because she wanted that too. It didn’t work out for various reasons but knowing what I now know, I am so glad it didn’t. 

[Drdee]

11 minutes ago, TwirlyWhirly said:

Does anyone know if the Panorama programme included a whistleblowing number / contact for anyone affected by the contents of their programme? 

There was a link to BBC Action but maybe on news page and bbc sounds.

[capybara]

Nothing specific to ballet schools. It said the details of organisations which could help with eating disorders and mental health issues could be found on bbb.co.uk/actionline

[Laura_ballet]

on 15 September, a whistleblowing line for the general public is also available on 0800 028 0970 for anyone who feels they can't directly raise a concern with the School. The line is staffed by independent experts and is available to call from 9.00 to 21.00 daily.

[Laura_ballet]

Just now, Thelittleswans said:

on 15 September, a whistleblowing line for the general public is also available on 0800 028 0970 for anyone who feels they can't directly raise a concern with the School. The line is staffed by independent experts and is available to call from 9.00 to 21.00 daily.

@TwirlyWhirly

[Angela Essex]

I just watched the documentary. I only got through the first 6 pages of comments on here so can’t claim to have read them all, but in my opinion what has happened is absolutely disgusting. Those teachers that made the vile comments, and the schools should be bloody well ashamed of themselves. Feeling very sad for all those children and parents affected.
 

As a layperson with zero knowledge of  vocational ballet training and selection of students I’m assuming they select a particular body type to begin with, but bodies change with growth and puberty, so I’m accepting that students may develop a body better suited to other forms of dance or other careers than classical ballet. Eg a boy that plays basketball but only ends up a little over 5ft isn’t going to be the next Michael Jordan, what I’m trying to say (badly) is that certain sports and careers have certain physical and mental attributes. At medical school if we didn’t make the cut academically you’d be asked to leave. I’m ok with that principle. Not everyone is going to develop an ideal body for classical ballet, despite rigorous training, and I get that.
 

What I find shocking is how, instead of having a frank conversation with the parents and kids about the child’s strengths and possible future career paths, these schools have just dished out abuse and mental torture via coded language on those kids to try and get them to comply to a particular body type and are now not even admitting it and apologising. Very very sick.
 

This raises the issue of why is there even a particular classical ballet body type? As an audience member I connect with personality more than how thin someone is.

[Lindsay]

16 minutes ago, TwirlyWhirly said:

Does anyone know if the Panorama programme included a whistleblowing number / contact for anyone affected by the contents of their programme? 

You could also message @BBCMarkDaly the BBC reporter who led the investigation on Twitter.  Alternatively @DinoNovicelli of Leigh Day, a solicitor acting on this, is collecting information about a list of schools he has set out on Twitter.

[TwirlyWhirly]

Thanks for useful replies about contacts. Good to know there are people who might be willing to listen/ advise.

[Ondine]

10 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

Leigh Day, a solicitor acting on this, is collecting information about a list of schools he has set out on Twitter.

 

His tweets are here, for information.

 

The schools he has listed are

 

Royal Ballet School, Elmhurst, Hammond, Young Dancers Academy,  English National Ballet, Ballet Theatre UK

 

Though of course this is no way an 'official' investigation, this is a legal firm.  Legal firms make money from litigation.

 

 

 

 

 

So anyone wishing to contact him, do please ask about fees.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

1 hour ago, Ballet.Parent said:

My experience there was that a nurse was part of the problem 

I am sorry to hear that. If they are a registered nurse then they are accountable to the NMC. 

[Coffeemum]

 Firstly, I want to say thank you to the young adults and parents who were brave enough to speak about their traumatic experiences on TV. This must have taken huge courage and I'm sure, as much as it was necessary and cathartic for them, it was intended to help future students by highlighting some of the abuse that happened. Things will never change until people talk about their experiences openly and report any misconduct.

 

There is absolutely no room for abuse of any kind in the fragile world of the Arts, or anywhere else. Any teaching that humiliates, shames, bullies or abuses is disgraceful and shouldn't be tolerated. It is absolutely not the fault of the pupils or the parents and only ever about the shortcomings and failure of the teachers.

Please, please continue to talk about everything that is wrong, as well as everything that is right and good. It's a world of extremes and needs to be taught and managed with careful and thoughtful consideration for children and their talent. We put our whole selves on show when we perform in front of others.

 

The brave music students who came forward, helped to change my industry for the better.

 

I have recent experience of both ballet schools through my two children. I've seen the good, the very good, the bad and the downright horrific at both institutions. It's really hard to summarise what my children have been through, how I feel and what to pass on as it's hugely complex and very specific to our own experience. The parents and students we both met are some of the best people, and will be friends for life.

Some of the experiences that my girls went through, and other students at both schools fall tragically short of putting the psychological and emotional needs of their students first and this needs change. One, more so than the other. (Though I've heard that staff changes at this particular school may have helped to eliminate some unhappiness - not a ballet teacher.) I'm happy to talk privately to anyone who would like some honest and objective advice. 

 

But what I would pass on to any prospective parent on the back of my experience is, if your child is happy and thriving at a fantastic local school or training centre, is it really necessary to send them away before they're 16? (I know this is impossible for some)

I'm not entirely sure whether the big brand school really looks out for, and cares about it's own students as much as they should. They are arts organisations after all, and will need all the financial support and talent to justify their existence as they can get. 

 

 But, for all the hard work, sacrifices, bad pay (for anyone other than a soloist or conductor!) and for the ballet world, a short career, a world in the arts can be hugely rewarding.

 

Please, just be open and don't be afraid of talking about anything that doesn't seem right and challenging anything or anyone who behaves badly. Xx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Out-the-other-side]

26 minutes ago, Thelittleswans said:

on 15 September, a whistleblowing line for the general public is also available on 0800 028 0970 for anyone who feels they can't directly raise a concern with the School. The line is staffed by independent experts and is available to call from 9.00 to 21.00 daily.

Interesting! Is this just for RBS or Elmhurst too? 

[Ballet.Parent]

3 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

I am sorry to hear that. If they are a registered nurse then they are accountable to the NMC. 

Thank you. I should have done more at the time. I tried. I failed. I have to live with the guilt of the harm that was done to my child as I didn’t speak up in the beginning out of fear of repercussions on them. By the time I did raise it, the abuser had done too much damage. For those wanting to “parent blame”, there won’t be a parent amongst us here whose child has suffered harm that doesn’t wish we could have done things differently. But I echo what others have so wisely said. All abuse is wrong and is never the fault of the child. I knew one of the dancers in that documentary. I was part of a FB group of parents which I left after seeing the “turn a blind eye” approach of some who were frankly just relieved it wasn’t happening to their child. When you have a culture of fear that it could be your child next, it leads to victim shaming and blaming. I can tell you now, it would never have happened to one of the children of the very very rich and well-connected parents in the ballet world. Abusers aren’t stupid. If you’re a nobody like we were, you’re just more likely to come in the firing line. And that very sadly is my truth. 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

7 minutes ago, Ballet.Parent said:

Thank you. I should have done more at the time. I tried. I failed. I have to live with the guilt of the harm that was done to my child as I didn’t speak up in the beginning out of fear of repercussions on them. By the time I did raise it, the abuser had done too much damage. For those wanting to “parent blame”, there won’t be a parent amongst us here whose child has suffered harm that doesn’t wish we could have done things differently. But I echo what others have so wisely said. All abuse is wrong and is never the fault of the child. I knew one of the dancers in that documentary. I was part of a FB group of parents which I left after seeing the “turn a blind eye” approach of some who were frankly just relieved it wasn’t happening to their child. When you have a culture of fear that it could be your child next, it leads to victim shaming and blaming. I can tell you now, it would never have happened to one of the children of the very very rich and well-connected parents in the ballet world. Abusers aren’t stupid. If you’re a nobody like we were, you’re just more likely to come in the firing line. And that very sadly is my truth. 

Please try not to blame yourself. You are not to blame for other’s abusive practices. It is hard when your Dc begs you not to say anything in case it makes it worse. Hugs to you and your dc xx

[Peanut68]

One of the ‘big four’ seems (bizarrely) missing from the tv & radio programmes & litigation list but am pretty sure it’s pertinent & included within many peoples experience of bad practise (& no doubt sone good too to be balanced) in discussions here.

As I’ve said before, I have very direct experience with 3 schools (but none of RBS full time training)

[Ballet.Parent]

3 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

One of the ‘big four’ seems (bizarrely) missing from the tv & radio programmes & litigation list but am pretty sure it’s pertinent & included within many peoples experience of bad practise (& no doubt sone good too to be balanced) in discussions here.

As I’ve said before, I have very direct experience with 3 schools (but none of RBS full time training)

I think you will be right. I have direct experience of 3 of the schools. There is good and bad everywhere. 

[Ondine]

6 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

One of the ‘big four’ seems (bizarrely) missing from the tv & radio programmes & litigation list

 

He did say the list may be added to...

[Balleteveryday]

Does anyone have links to anyone with kids in the schools now? What is the messaging that they are receiving off the back of this? Given the huge financial investment I hope it’s a more reassuring and proactive message for parents than what was sent to those of us with some but significant more limited investment.