Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[lollylamb1]

Interested to see how this media exposure will pan out in the long term...impact on budding young dancers, their parents/guardians, teachers of pre-vocational students wanting to signpost, all those working in these institutions or those who aspire to, the countless alumni, the sponsors, those above that + the fee paying audience.

 

Hope further safeguarding concerns are raised to highlight the need for change. Personally I had a place one of the other elite schools (not RBS/Elmhurst) at 11, but didn't go due to lack of funding, continued to train pre-vocationally outside of academic school until I was 16 when I decided I didn't want to continue on this path. Most sad, almost ALL of my ballet friends, most went onto vocational school at 16, yet didn't gain a place in a classical ballet company + are no longer in the industry or too damaged by their experience to even live a normal life in the UK, a lot moved abroad. Similarly, I personally know many people ranging from 5-30+ years older than me who attended either RBS/Elmhurst + experienced the most harrowing abuse, yet they were either too scared to speak out, never listened to OR believed + have struggled on many different levels, trying building a life for themselves either within the arts or outside.

[Ballet_novice]

8 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

No current students would have dared to stick their head above the parapet. It would be the kiss of death for their career, and they know it. 

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

[Neverdancedjustamum]

26 minutes ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

I didn’t find the documentary to be sensationalistic. If anything, it was quite short, not as in-depth as most expected, and I suspect only scratches the surface. I was only watching it in the background whilst doing something else but I believe it was said both schools refused to be interviewed?  

[Anna C]

30 minutes ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

With all due respect, you cannot possibly say that it’s not true.  Parents with years of experience of the ballet world are saying that there is an all-pervasive culture of “keep quiet for fear of suffering the consequences” in ballet.  Are you saying they’re lying?

 

As far as “a balanced view” is concerned, the BBC offered RBS and Elmhurst interviews; both schools declined.  

 

[Guest oncnp]

10 minutes ago, Anna C said:

With all due respect, you cannot possibly say that it’s not true.  Parents with years of experience of the ballet world are saying that there is an all-pervasive culture of “keep quiet for fear of suffering the consequences” in ballet.  Are you saying they’re lying?

 

As far as “a balanced view” is concerned, the BBC offered RBS and Elmhurst interviews; both schools declined.  

 

 

With due respect, just as the pervasive culture was true for you perhaps it was not true for the poster.  Just because their experience was different than yours does not make theirs less valid. 

 

Calling someone with a different point a view a liar just polarizes opinion more and makes resolution harder. 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by oncnp

[capybara]

Vadim Muntagirov talks about his early training in Russia and his experiences at the RBS Upper School in his recently published autobiography From Small Steps to Big Leaps. 

The book is available from the ROH Bookshop 

https://shop.roh.org.uk/products/vadim-muntagirov-from-small-steps-to-big-leaps-book 

or on Amazon.

[Ondine]

20 minutes ago, Anna C said:

the BBC offered RBS and Elmhurst interviews; both schools declined.

 

Well yes.  They cannot comment, clearly, on individual cases out of privacy concerns and apparently a court case is ongoing involving one person at least.

 

There were written statements.

 

 

 

 

[meadowblythe]

11 hours ago, LinMM said:

If we are going to accept more realistic body shapes and weight for women then this is bound to have a knock on affect for male dancers. We need more variety there too …at least some taller and stronger men within a company which I think is starting to happen. 

 

From conversations with my DS over the years, mass is only one aspect.  Core stability, the ability to leap and then hold position is even more important.  Strength is as, if not more, of a consideration.

 

Sadly though it's not just the schools it's the companies who want a certain shape.  From direct experience from his graduating years and since, dancers told that they need to loose x kg to be hired or considered for a role.  These are not UK companies, the situation may be different.

[Kerfuffle]

9 hours ago, Melody said:

I wonder how much this really is just at the school level and how much is because a certain body type is required by companies these days, with the sort of gymnastic choreography they're doing, and that schools have to produce the sorts of dancers that the companies want. Especially now that the dancers seem to be taller than they were, which makes some of the lifts (especially involving the man walking around the stage with the woman draped around him) more strenuous unless the dancers are thinner to compensate for the extra height. With companies getting more and more homogeneous, there isn't that much scope in the ballet world for a prospective dancer to look elsewhere without leaving ballet altogether. 

 

It's sad to think that dancers with feminine bodies like Margot Fonteyn and Lynn Seymour might very well not make it through school these days, if they were even accepted in the first place, because the body type is so important. Frederick Ashton did have a grouse about the shapeless dancers he came across later in his career (what he actually said was a bit more X-rated, but that was the general idea). Honestly, when you see a dancer in profile in her tutu, from the neck down it could very easily be a boy- no breasts, no hips. But that's the style Balanchine wanted from the start, hence his baby-ballerina choices very early in his career, and that's what we seem to be stuck with.

 

I don't know how things are in Russia nowadays, but I remember one documentary where a dancer was proudly saying at around midday that she'd had nothing to eat all day but just existed on black coffee, and it cut to a scene in the cafeteria where another dancer took what seemed to be several minutes to choke down one forkful of rice. This is giving youngsters a terrible example - being tall and thin, not eating, existing on black coffee and cigarettes, and having to deal with much more physically challenging choreography requiring all sorts of injury-risking extensions and acrobatics, is just dangerous.

Russia requires girls to be extremely thin , they have a chart according to height, I know girls who have had to lose an alarming amount of weight before going there. In Europe schools in Austria, Germany and Switzerland have also been in the news for body shaming/abuse and some closed down the problems are so serious. I don’t know about USA. Would be interesting to hear of any accounts people might have. 

[Ruby Foo]

3 hours ago, Out-the-other-side said:

At the ‘graduation party’ referred to in the programme, my daughter was given the ‘joke’ award of ‘Most Likely to Cry in Class’, so clearly her daily torment and humiliation was a source of amusement for the teacher in question. 

It is unfathomable to me how any teacher thinks that making a student cry in class is beneficial in achieving the desired gaol of bringing the best of their potential, let alone a teacher at a renowned institution. Yet I know this happened plenty times in my dc’s class ( sometimes daily)and was ignored by the teacher. This was last year. The student is crying because the teacher has made them feel so hopeless, humiliated and powerless. 

 

35 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I didn’t find the documentary to be sensationalistic. If anything, it was quite short, not as in-depth as most expected, and I suspect only scratches the surface. I was only watching it in the background whilst doing something else but I believe it was said both schools refused to be interviewed?  

 

It certainly does only scratch the surface of a very complex and entwined set of issues which have been left to fester for years due to a culture of fear. Another 10 series like this and we may be starting to touch on the issues.

1 hour ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

With due respect to your point of view, as a ex dancer, teacher and parent of an ( now ex dancer) this is not how we feel. And surely that’s the point, that students and dancers should feel they  are able to communicate and work as a partnership with the school.

[Anna C]

10 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

Well yes.  They cannot comment, clearly, on individual cases out of privacy concerns and apparently a court case is ongoing involving one person at least.

 

There were written statements.

 

 

 

 

Which were quoted.  Therefore, the documentary was as balanced as possible.

[Drdee]

I think it would be best to shift the focus towards the way ballet is being taught. There is something in that which needs to be discussed. All the dancers talked how they interpreted feedback and how their self worth was so closely linked to negative and positive feedback. How do you learn to not misconstrue feedback? Can you ask the teacher? How do you learn to separate your dancing technique etc. from your self-belief and self-worth? Perhaps there needs to be more talking in ballet classes!! I think the File on 4 radio programme provides more on how the ballet industry could improve. Without wanting to lecture anyone we have to remember that on other online spaces dancers are talking. There are many dancers who have been triggered by the programme. There are those who did not experience bullying but observed others being bullied. It is tricky being the bystander and feeling helpless. There are those in companies dancing who want to ensure things change. If these are learning institutions then they need to do better as the trauma needs to stop. As adults we can write letters/emails. As Luke Jennings said there is a elements of a ‘cult’ in ballet which is perhaps why there is not this ‘open and honest conversation’ that we would all like to happen. 

[Anna C]

27 minutes ago, oncnp said:

 

With due respect, just as the pervasive culture was true for you perhaps it was not true for the poster.  Just because their experience was different than yours does not make theirs less valid. 

 

Calling someone with a different point a view a liar just polarizes opinion more and makes resolution harder. 

 

 

 

Ballet.novice stated that the culture of fear which stops current students and dancers raising their heads above the parapet “is not true”.  If they meant “that was not MY experience”, they should have said so.

 

You cannot say, categorically, that someone else’s lived experience is “not true”.  
 

And I absolutely did NOT call anyone a liar.  

[billythewhizz]

There was some much more that could have also been covered if time permitted in the programme considering our DD experience which is wrong with at least one of the  schools mentioned and also alarming how, until hopefully now, much could not be said considering artistic director acts as judge, jury and executioner with the principle tending to have little authority of him (it was generally accepted and we were told by student in older year…don’t speak out as it could impact DD future). We did speak up and it impacted our DD selection to 6th form (she was originally on the list as we were told by dance teacher and house parent), but we had what we thought would be an open and transparent meeting with artistic director after which our DD was taken off the list. We had ongoing concerns throughout our DD time from year 6 which we always tried to raise, these included student bullying which was always brushed under the carpet with some house parents worse than useless, focus on artistic directors ‘favourites’, including international students, artistic director only attending dance class once in year but making judgement on DD future, select few students being told discreetly they were safe and not being accessed out to critical milestone years (year 8 and also 6th form) before official communication went out to all students, at assessment meeting dance teacher raising physical issues not just being weight related, general acceptance by academic teachers that dance was priority and academics not as equal importance. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors that exist, what they say they do is not a reality…just because you can say something on your website like anti bullying policy, mental health policy and support, etc  doesn’t make it happen, your have to actually act on it and have it baked into your school culture. There also needs to be more scrutiny put onto Artistic Director (who are generally regarded as one who cant be questioned or come under scrutiny and everyone runs scared of them as they have some much power over your child’s future, lets not forget all AD’s have grown up through the dance system, their skills and approach have been made forged through the dance system and culture including all the things which are bad and therefore will continue with what they think is the right approach, with impunity. 

[Drdee]

13 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

Well yes.  They cannot comment, clearly, on individual cases out of privacy concerns and apparently a court case is ongoing involving one person at least.

 

There were written statements.

 

 

 

 

Maybe not but they really need to empathise with those who have spoken out without jeopardising the important legal and ethical issues. They need to validate those dancers interviewed as their words are part of the solution.

[littledancer99]

As a parent of a year 6 dancer I am so sad that this still goes on in some of the best ballet schools in the U.K.

I feel like veering her away from ballet entirely after watching this 

 

can a child ever make it in ballet without being abused 🤦‍♀️

 

 

[The red shoes]

Yes they can! 

[Guest oncnp]

29 minutes ago, Drdee said:

Maybe not but they really need to empathise with those who have spoken out without jeopardising the important legal and ethical issues. They need to validate those dancers interviewed as their words are part of the solution.

 

Realistically, how would they do that without jeopardizing the court case? If someone is suing you, are you going to give them more ammunition?  To "empathize" would concede there's a problem, which they don't seem to think there is.  

 

To clarify....It's not that I think they don't need to do it, it is just that realistically I don't think you can expect them to. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by oncnp

[Swanwings]

1 minute ago, littledancer99 said:

As a parent of a year 6 dancer I am so sad that this still goes on in some of the best ballet schools in the U.K.

I feel like veering her away from ballet entirely after watching this 

 

can a child ever make it in ballet without being abused 🤦‍♀️

 

 

yes they can, my dd has been at vocational school for 4 years, she is by no means the skinniest in her class but has never experienced any of this. She has loved her time at school. She intends to make ballet her career and is fully aware of how harsh and unforgiving a place this world can be. There is hope, though I know there is a long way to go in some places.

[Kerfuffle]

These problems seem to be very common at lower school level, not just the ones mentioned. It’s very important to have some input from a teacher who truly believes in and nurtures your child @littledancer99

[Neverdancedjustamum]

8 minutes ago, littledancer99 said:

As a parent of a year 6 dancer I am so sad that this still goes on in some of the best ballet schools in the U.K.

I feel like veering her away from ballet entirely after watching this 

 

can a child ever make it in ballet without being abused 🤦‍♀️

 

 

Bearing in mind, this is probably not isolated to vocational boarding schools. I also know of concerns in local dance schools. Perhaps not so much the body shaming but definitely the verbal jibes and what can be constituted as bullying. And just like those DCs, often the child would be scared to tell anyone about it (and often the parents too), feeling they have no choice. I’ve witnessed parents who know full well that this happens in the schools but opt to keep their child in there as they feel they have no choice or because the teacher is brilliant. I’m sure a child can make it without being abused but it is a tricky one to manoeuvre. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Peanut68]

Red shoes & Swanwings - I am pleased for you that you feel this way

But -politely - I add doubtless they will witness others suffering abuse of various sorts…unless they train mostly privately & with perfect teachers….or wear blinkers & earplugs! My opinion….based on abuse aimed at me & others over 30 years ago & sadly seeing & hearing it replicated identically (& in many cases far worse with the so called ‘validation’ that social media piles on things from ‘successful’ influencers) on this generation of trainees too…

To add…. One school’s experience was generally very positive but still not 100% perfect (there issues were mostly boarding & ineffective/mean houseparents & bitchy kids) 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Peanut68
To add

[Ondine]

13 minutes ago, Drdee said:

They need to validate those dancers interviewed as their words are part of the solution.

 Unless of course they have a  different perspective  on those cases, different recollections. I believe this was mentioned. It wasn't 'balanced' in the sense that each case could be refuted in detail. 

 

[akh]

10 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

This is all so our experience. When it became clear that verbal abuse in class was taking place on a daily basis, my dc, though admitting she wasn’t sure she could take it anymore, begged and begged us not to speak out because it was well known what happened to those who challenged the system. Incidentally none of this related to body shaming and in her experience the school’s education and guidance on nutrition was extremely healthy and helpful. 

Exactly body shaming is not the only issue.

[Balleteveryday]

As someone whose child is not too far off the stage of applying to these schools, I came out of watching that programme in the hope that it was ‘just’ (please don’t get me wrong, one is too many) a small number of students who’d maybe not done as well as they’d hoped and that it had been put together as sensationalist click-bait. Whilst I’ve never been deaf to the issues I’ve heard on the grapevine, I’ve also always hoped that these were historic issues and that we were now in an era of significant change where this kind of thing wasn’t tolerated. Coming on here and hearing ALL of your stories is heartbreaking. It’s not just those few young people who spoke in the programme and the horrific impact we saw it had on them. And it is not historic, it’s now (I’m aware the programme referred to 50 former students, but we don’t exactly know what they all said).

 

I’m not sure how any parent who watched the programme and reads this thread could confidently say they’d be happy to put their child in this environment even if the child was pushing for it. Yes, we want to support our kids and their dreams but I’m not sure I can ignore the metaphorical big red flashing lights and sirens in the hope that my child somehow will be lucky enough to escape this treatment. 
 

Can I ask what other parents are thinking/feeling if your child is due to audition maybe this year or next? What do we ask the schools on open days/audition days? What do we ask the current students if they are giving tours? Would we as prospective parents ‘damage’ our children’s chances of even being offered a place if we were seen to be asking certain types of questions? I don’t know?!

 

What do we need to see from the schools to convince us that they are safe and nurturing environments where our children will thrive?
 

When I’m even thinking about  these types of ‘what if’ questions, it makes me think that some of these the issues relating to speaking out or challenging ‘authority’ are pervasive not just when you’re in the schools, but in the whole genre/system. Maybe I’m thinking too much?

 

Also, this might be a whole other thread so apologies if it disrupts the current conversation.

[Swanwings]

11 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Red shoes & Swanwings - I am pleased for you that you feel this way

But -politely - I add doubtless they will witness others suffering abuse of various sorts…unless they train mostly privately & with perfect teachers….or wear blinkers & earplugs! My opinion….based on abuse aimed at me & others over 30 years ago & sadly seeing & hearing it replicated identically (& in many cases far worse with the so called ‘validation’ that social media piles on things from ‘successful’ influencers) on this generation of trainees too…

To add…. One school’s experience was generally very positive but still not 100% perfect (there issues were mostly boarding & ineffective/mean houseparents & bitchy kids) 

 

Thank you for your reply @Peanut68 and I understand where you are coming from, but really, my daughter is well aware of what can go on and she has never experienced or witnessed anything at her school, which is vocational.  They are extremely careful over body image and that the students eat well, they have really taken the best care of her and her peers. I know this is not everyones experience at other institutions, but it is certainly hers. 

[Ruby Foo]

18 minutes ago, littledancer99 said:

As a parent of a year 6 dancer I am so sad that this still goes on in some of the best ballet schools in the U.K.

I feel like veering her away from ballet entirely after watching this 

 

can a child ever make it in ballet without being abused 🤦‍♀️

 

 

My dc was at another vocational school beforehand and was extremely happy. Others may have been having a thoroughly miserable time but she did not witness it. This is why it is so difficult to pin down. Because while let’s say 10 students in the class are having the experience they realistically hoped for,

3 students might be going through hell.

[Pas de Quatre]

When I was a student, one female friend suffered from Anorexia. As a ballet teacher I had two cases in my school a few years apart. It is very hard to understand why these particular students suffered, when others were fine, although in each case their own circumstances may have been a factor.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

4 minutes ago, Balleteveryday said:

As someone whose child is not too far off the stage of applying to these schools, I came out of watching that programme in the hope that it was ‘just’ (please don’t get me wrong, one is too many) a small number of students who’d maybe not done as well as they’d hoped and that it had been put together as sensationalist click-bait. Whilst I’ve never been deaf to the issues I’ve heard on the grapevine, I’ve also always hoped that these were historic issues and that we were now in an era of significant change where this kind of thing wasn’t tolerated. Coming on here and hearing ALL of your stories is heartbreaking. It’s not just those few young people who spoke in the programme and the horrific impact we saw it had on them. And it is not historic, it’s now (I’m aware the programme referred to 50 former students, but we don’t exactly know what they all said).

 

I’m not sure how any parent who watched the programme and reads this thread could confidently say they’d be happy to put their child in this environment even if the child was pushing for it. Yes, we want to support our kids and their dreams but I’m not sure I can ignore the metaphorical big red flashing lights and sirens in the hope that my child somehow will be lucky enough to escape this treatment. 
 

Can I ask what other parents are thinking/feeling if your child is due to audition maybe this year or next? What do we ask the schools on open days/audition days? What do we ask the current students if they are giving tours? Would we as prospective parents ‘damage’ our children’s chances of even being offered a place if we were seen to be asking certain types of questions? I don’t know?!

 

What do we need to see from the schools to convince us that they are safe and nurturing environments where our children will thrive?
 

When I’m even thinking about  these types of ‘what if’ questions, it makes me think that some of these the issues relating to speaking out or challenging ‘authority’ are pervasive not just when you’re in the schools, but in the whole genre/system. Maybe I’m thinking too much?

 

Also, this might be a whole other thread so apologies if it disrupts the current conversation.

As a parent who’s embarking on a massive open day mission - nothing to do with vocational schools - and someone who’s been working in education for what seems like decades, open days/mornings are good for looking around campus. So speak to current students and staff and absorb the general information given to you. Admire the campus.  However, the atmosphere during open days is very curated (I won’t go as far as to say artificial). What I used to do, additionally, is to bring my DC to a normal day on campus where possible. This probably won’t be possible for vocational schools but just to say take open days with a pinch of salt. As someone who’s been thrown  into the ballet world by a DD who loves dancing (much to our surprise as our family has zero history of dancing or interest in dancing), I can now say that it is a very small world. You’ll get more info from current and past parents than you’ll ever get from open days. Those who are most vocal are those who experienced opposite sides of the spectrum: those who are very pleased with their experience and those who really aren’t. Listen to both. And listen to those who are neutral or not even in the vocational world. Often it is this very group who gets to be the sounding board. It may not be their personal experience but it is in those very casual encounters and catch ups that you get to hear a lot. Just because it wasn’t someone’s experience, doesn’t mean it’s hearsay, especially when you talk to these people. There’s no smoke if there’s no fire. Lastly, situations change very quickly. I’ve known many parents who have been very pleased with their experience so far…until they’re not (ie their kids don’t get upper or 6th form or there’s some sort of falling out). Equally, I’ve known some disgruntled parents who are lucky enough to find another school or teacher who nurtures their traumatised or broken child. Always two sides to a story, but never dismiss either. Feedback is always born out of context.

[LinMM]

I haven’t heard from any moderators yet about the removal of my post yesterday. As this was my main comment after seeing this programme perhaps the post could be returned with the removal of the young dancers Christian name I mentioned. 
Apologies to this young lady if she has felt identified by it. 
Many thanks 

Linda 

[Balleteveryday]

12 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

As a parent who’s embarking on a massive open day mission - nothing to do with vocational schools - and someone who’s been working in education for what seems like decades, open days/mornings are good for looking around campus. So speak to current students and staff and absorb the general information given to you. Admire the campus.  However, the atmosphere during open days is very curated (I won’t go as far as to say artificial). What I used to do, additionally, is to bring my DC to a normal day on campus where possible. This probably won’t be possible for vocational schools but just to say take open days with a pinch of salt. As someone who’s been thrown  into the ballet world by a DD who loves dancing (much to our surprise as our family has zero history of dancing or interest in dancing), I can now say that it is a very small world. You’ll get more info from current and past parents than you’ll ever get from open days. Those who are most vocal are those who experienced opposite sides of the spectrum: those who are very pleased with their experience and those who really aren’t. Listen to both. And listen to those who are neutral or not even in the vocational world. Often it is this very group who gets to be the sounding board. It may not be their personal experience but it is in those very casual encounters and catch ups that you get to hear a lot. Just because it wasn’t someone’s experience, doesn’t mean it’s hearsay, especially when you talk to these people. There’s no smoke if there’s no fire. Lastly, situations change very quickly. I’ve known many parents who have been very pleased with their experience so far…until they’re not (ie their kids don’t get upper or 6th form or there’s some sort of falling out). Equally, I’ve known some disgruntled parents who are lucky enough to find another school or teacher who nurtures their traumatised or broken child. Always two sides to a story, but never dismiss either. Feedback is always born out of context.

Thank you for your insight and thoughts, it’s appreciated and I’ll follow suit 👍

[Farawaydancer]

30 minutes ago, Swanwings said:

Thank you for your reply @Peanut68 and I understand where you are coming from, but really, my daughter is well aware of what can go on and she has never experienced or witnessed anything at her school, which is vocational.  They are extremely careful over body image and that the students eat well, they have really taken the best care of her and her peers. I know this is not everyones experience at other institutions, but it is certainly hers. 

This is my dd’s experience too. 

[Doing Dance 1]

10 hours ago, Melody said:

… Especially now that the dancers seem to be taller than they were, which makes some of the lifts (especially involving the man walking around the stage with the woman draped around him) more strenuous unless the dancers are thinner to compensate for the extra height. 

 

 

 

I can’t help but find this wording dangerous. 
You mentioned strenuous lifts for the men - totally valid. 

However, why should the women be thinner?
As is already being implemented across schools and companies, surely a solution to the ‘problem’ is for the men - and dancers broadly - to be stronger? 
 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Doing Dance 1