Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[LinMM]

Goodness how could the Senior management team do that!! It’s their job to know what’s going on in their own school. 
Mods can remove this comment if feel it’s right to ….as I don’t know Elmhurst directly myself ….but just replying ( in amazement) to above comment.

[Beezie]

I also wonder if the narrowness of the school provides students with few graceful exits.  It is classical ballet or bust.

If these schools widened the view of Classical Ballet to train all Classical Dance Professions, then they could train for non-profit business management, sports medicine, staging, choreography etc.  If an 11 year old does not develop a Classical Ballet body, there would still be an avenue for him/her to stay at that school and become a Classical Dance Professional…..though not as a classical ballet dancer.

 

It also gives teachers a talking point beyond “you don’t have the right body.”  The discussion can then be “While you aren’t developing the right body for classical ballet, I can see how artistic you are with regard to staging and lighting.”

 

This has long been used in academics, where not everyone makes it as a doctor or astrophysicist.  It allows interests to change and better suit the individual, without so strong an emphasis on failure.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Beezie

[Dancers Dad]

I find myself increasingly glad of my ignorance around ballet training that led to my daughter applying to ballet school at 16, not 11. It seems that they are so much better equipped to deal with it by this point. 11 is so very young - and it seems, according to the interviewees in the doc, that puberty was often the moment when it all starts to go very unpleasant.

 

Also, I had had a sense that the aesthetic was changing a little - eg Misty Copeland and other stronger rather than thinner dancers, and also some companies' real focus on strength these days eg The Australian Ballet. But I don't really know a huge amount about the sector and it seems like old habits die hard.

[Lindsay]

12 minutes ago, richieN said:

 

You strike to the heart of the matter - institutional deference to ex-ballet stars and those with letters after their name. 

Indeed, deference and complacency seem very prevalent at all levels of the top institutions.  Accompanied with a heavy dose of self-satisfaction from people whose powers of understanding often seem very limited…..
 

And schools (perhaps especially those isolated in the middle of parks…) often seem to lag companies in their adaptations to modern reality and values.  The 1990s opera house documentary showed Anthony Dowell having to explain to a shocked White Lodge teacher that it was ok to cast an Asian student as Clara (when that was a children’s role)

Edited September 11, 2023 by Lindsay

[DancingWellies]

Quote

I also wonder if the narrowness of the school provides students with few graceful exits.  It is classical ballet or bust.

Which considering how few actually go into a classical ballet company is another major issue they need to get to grips with.

 

Unfortunately it looks like the program is focussing on the body image issue, easy one to sell to people outside the ballet world I suppose but the well being issues go well beyond body shaming.

[Kerfuffle]

There is a lot to be said for a wider education until 16. Maybe we need an overhaul with more CAT schemes, associates etc. 7 million could be redirected towards those instead! 

[Anon2]

20 minutes ago, DancingWellies said:

Which considering how few actually go into a classical ballet company is another major issue they need to get to grips with.

 

Unfortunately it looks like the program is focussing on the body image issue, easy one to sell to people outside the ballet world I suppose but the well being issues go well beyond body shaming.

I agree the program does concentrate on the body shaming issues but in light of the fact it is only 30 minutes long I can’t see how they would cover other topics. This program hopefully breaks the ice and will start those in ballet and education thinking about their practices. I’m not holding my breathe on that one though. 
 

[Ballet Saga]

Is what is going on any different to normal state schools letting children with any form of learning issues down? I think it’s something about society as a whole that we tell our children perfectionism and success are all that’s matters. Children suffering intense mental issues because they’re not making the grades etc. Social media telling young people what the ‘ideal body’ is. 
Add this to the already pressurised environment of trying to become a pro ballet dancer, it’s not surprising issues arise. 
Yes the schools of course have to be aware of it and do all they can to stop any eating disorders/mental health issues develop, but also where are the parents? I’m sure some of them put the pressure on their children too…We’ve all seen it.

Also, there aren’t just two vocational ballet schools in the UK. The others have got away with it where this documentary is concerned! 
It’s a shame the documentary only decided to look at eating disorders and didn’t delve into all the other issues at these schools. It probably did that because it’s more entertaining for the general public to watch. They expect these schools to have these issues. It’s brought nothing new to light. 
 

[Lindsay]

1 minute ago, Graceful said:

 

Is what is going on any different to normal state schools letting children with any form of learning issues down?

 

I think what is different about “elite” specialist schools like RBS or Elmhurst is that they can act (or claim to act) as gatekeepers to the very small world the students dream of entering.  A state school teacher can’t threaten you with being shut out from your chosen career and there is always another school

you can go to.  With selective ballet schools the schools hold the power.  Unless you have the financial resources to train privately/overseas you have few other routes in.  Which is why the schools must be made to exercise that power responsibly.

[LukeJennings]

The Panorama programme (to which I contributed) inevitably shows only the tip of the iceberg. The bullying and body-shaming described by the young men and women featured is symptomatic of something much wider. What the schools in question (and many directors and choreographers) fail to realise is that there's been a cultural shift; present-day audiences don't fetishise extreme thinness in the way that they do. We really, really don't. What we value is the expression of the authentic self. Most of the photos that the young people featured in the BBC programme bravely share with us - showing them looking morbidly thin and emotionally fragile - are the antithesis of any kind of authentic self. Ballet should be beautiful, but it should also convey strength, confidence and relatable human presence. The bullying and cruelty described in this programme (and described to me, over the last two decades, by far more ballet parents and students than I can count), destroys all of those things. Ballet needs to catch up. It's way behind the curve.

[Peanut68]

4 hours ago, Sim said:

Excuse me, but the reason the first post was hidden was because a member reported the use of a certain word in the post.  It was absolutely nothing to do with what was said about the schools.  As is explained elsewhere on this forum, each time a member reports a post, we hide it whilst it is under discussion by the Mods.  If we agree with the report, the post stays hidden and we contact the poster to tell them why.  This might take a day or two as we all have lives and jobs.  If we disagree with the report we unhide the post.  Or, with the agreement of the poster, we make changes, as is the case above.  The agreed changes having been made, we have now unlocked the thread and made the relevant posts visible again.  Furthermore, I have said numerous times that we don't hide posts lightly, nor do we like doing so, but when we do hide them it's because a member has reported them, or a moderator thinks it breaches our AUP.  When a post is hidden, any subsequent posts that refer to it are also hidden because either the reference wouldn't make sense or if the post has been quoted it would still be visible.  Rest assured that we aren't performing mass repression.  I have also said many times that in these litigious times when people get so easily offended many things that used to be considered as fair game aren't anymore.  We therefore have to be very careful about what we can allow to be said on here about individuals or institutions.  We used to be more lax but have almost come a cropper a couple of times in the past so we have learned our lesson.  May I also repeat that if any kind of action were to be taken against the forum, it is we, the Moderators who would have to bear the responsibility and the financial and legal brunt of any such action, not the members.  

 

As Chair of the Forum Committee, I want to make very clear that we do our best to remain neutral (and believe me, it's not always easy) and would never, ever, hide posts just to protect a school, whether consciously or not.  To accuse us of such is, to quote you, a great shame.  Perhaps next time you could wait until you know the actual reason for a post being hidden prior to accusing us of something that is untrue.  The Moderators work hard 365 days a year to run and maintain this forum.  We are volunteers, and have all been doing this for almost 12 years of our lives.  We often take a lot of flak and we accept that that is part of the remit.  However, I have posted these words because we won't take flak for something that is not true.

 

Thank you for clarification - although I think it was less the hiding a post that caused alarm but more that the thread was locked. I certainly wondered if outside PR influence had come to bear as previous threads with criticism of one particular establishment seem in the past to have suffered the same fate of being locked & thus preventing debate & opening a question in my mind that there does seem to be a power is that is far too omnipresent in the dance world if even here  influence can close down debate. Now I understand from your post that this could indeed be any member & I am in no way intending to actually accuse a school - but I am musing as to this regular situation & the players. Afterall, any institution should surely be aware of this excellent forum & similarly I would expect they have their PR/Marketing/Admissions teams as well as lawyers all over it! And surely individual teachers too? And of course pupils & parents….

Just my personal musing with my marketing hat on. 
The old adage of no such thing as bad publicity does not always hold true. But one thing for sure those hiding will be found out eventually. Truth will out. 

[Anon2]

12 minutes ago, Graceful said:

Yes the schools of course have to be aware of it and do all they can to stop any eating disorders/mental health issues develop, but also where are the parents? I’m sure some of them put the pressure on their children too…We’ve all seen it.

 

Isn’t the problem more that the school teaching and pastoral staff should not be encouraging and causing the eating disorders and mental health issues? How is it right for a teacher to tell an 11/12 year old boy he is too heavy to get off the floor in front of his classmates? How is it right for a teacher to stand a 16 year old in front of a mirror and tell her what she would cut off her body? How is it right to tell students there are treats but imply they shouldn’t have them? I remember hearing a similar comment said at a Christmas Service to students and parents about not over indulging in treats over the holidays. 
 

[Out-the-other-side]

16 minutes ago, Graceful said:

Is what is going on any different to normal state schools letting children with any form of learning issues down? I think it’s something about society as a whole that we tell our children perfectionism and success are all that’s matters. Children suffering intense mental issues because they’re not making the grades etc. Social media telling young people what the ‘ideal body’ is. 
Add this to the already pressurised environment of trying to become a pro ballet dancer, it’s not surprising issues arise. 
Yes the schools of course have to be aware of it and do all they can to stop any eating disorders/mental health issues develop, but also where are the parents? I’m sure some of them put the pressure on their children too…We’ve all seen it.

Also, there aren’t just two vocational ballet schools in the UK. The others have got away with it where this documentary is concerned! 
It’s a shame the documentary only decided to look at eating disorders and didn’t delve into all the other issues at these schools. It probably did that because it’s more entertaining for the general public to watch. They expect these schools to have these issues. It’s brought nothing new to light. 
 

I’m not sure anyone would describe the programme as entertaining…

The very fact that it has bought nothing new to light is surely one of the issues - nothing has changed to make these institutions accept responsibility, act appropriately to safeguard their pupils and to ensure that students leaving them, whether successful in gaining employment or not, are not left struggling with trauma induced by the very people we as parents entrust the well being of our children to. 

[LinMM]

To be honest I’m surprised this form of negative teaching and way of relating to their students doesn’t lead to Depression among the teachers. 

How could you look forward to going into work every day! 
Using your creative imagination to draw out the best in your students skills can be a truly joyful process for teachers and students alike. 

 

[Lindsay]

12 minutes ago, LukeJennings said:

t; present-day audiences don't fetishise extreme thinness in the way that they do. We really, really don't. What we value is the expression of the authentic self.

I couldn’t agree with this more as an audience member myself. But I have two concerns about whether this will actually drive change in classical companies.  The first is the “regular” audience for classical ballet, perhaps those who see only/mostly ballet and not other forms of dance.  There, both in theatres and online, one often overhears or reads direct or indirect criticism of dancers’ weight.  
 

The second is the online world which many young dancers (and potential future audiences) inhabit, on YouTube, instagram and even tumblr, which still widely fetishises the worst trends for thinness and extreme flexibility within Russian ballet or some of the more extreme US institutions - for example each class of Vaganova graduates is discussed as if they were heading for the NBA draft.  This immersion tends towards preserving and reinforcing a tradition that I agree with you should be consigned to history.

[Ballet Saga]

20 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

I think what is different about “elite” specialist schools like RBS or Elmhurst is that they can act (or claim to act) as gatekeepers to the very small world the students dream of entering.  A state school teacher can’t threaten you with being shut out from your chosen career and there is always another school

you can go to.  With selective ballet schools the schools hold the power.  Unless you have the financial resources to train privately/overseas you have few other routes in.  Which is why the schools must be made to exercise that power responsibly.

Yes I understand that but what about grammar schools? And actually academies seem to have a lot of power now. Plus you can’t just go to other schools. Lots of parents know how difficult it is to get your child a place at a school. This is part of a bigger problem. 
Financially the elite ballet schools have always been a problem for lower income families. So I don’t think the issue is about being able to leave the school for private training. You have to have a high level of training now before even being given a place at one of these schools. 
I agree the schools should do better, like all schools, and any system that is looking after our children. 
Parents surely have to know their children are experiencing issues and then why do they still send their children to these schools? I just don’t get it. 

[Millicent]

In some ways the program has added nothing new to what we already know. Ballet dancers are much more likely to suffer from eating disorders. Some of the dancers featured here admitted that they had eating disorders or mental health issues before they started at the schools, so I would question the wisdom of sending them there in the first place. I am in no way excusing the schools by saying that, but just questioning whether it's ever going to be a healthy environment for a child to go into if they are already struggling with eating disorders. 

 

However, any sunlight on these issues that plague the entire industry should be welcomed. The focus on the "right" body, which certain schools seem to focus on as more important than facility, technique or artistry, definitely needs to be challenged. The mention of the teachers' comments on weight is very concerning, particularly those that stray into bullying. Sadly, the people who are making the casting decisions that focus on "body type" are the people we need to convince to change. And with the power they wield how do we make that happen?

 

I thought one of the most interesting points was the coded messages given to dancers. Like not being fit enough or needed to lengthen their lines. I have heard similar coded messages about why dancers have been assessed out, including hiding behind qualities such as supposed poor turnout or other anatomical issues that surely the school would have already known about at auditions. I think there is a culture where everyone knows what that means but they think they can get away with it as long as though they don't actually come out and say "you're not thin enough for our aesthetic".

 

In fairness, the BBC notes that "both schools dispute the accounts given to the BBC". And the schools have no real right of reply as they are bound by confidentiality towards the students. I'm not questioning the authenticity of the people interviewed, just that we've only heard one side of the story.

 

[Ballet Saga]

10 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

I’m not sure anyone would describe the programme as entertaining…

The very fact that it has bought nothing new to light is surely one of the issues - nothing has changed to make these institutions accept responsibility, act appropriately to safeguard their pupils and to ensure that students leaving them, whether successful in gaining employment or not, are not left struggling with trauma induced by the very people we as parents entrust the well being of our children to. 

Television is entertainment. I didn’t find it particularly entertaining, but I’m sure the general public would be more likely to watch it when they see it’s about eating issues. As it seems society is obsessed with things like that. A television programme won’t change the world, and it would be naive to think it would. 
Maybe the pending lawsuits will have a more positive impact on the negative culture at the schools. 

[Ballet Saga]

3 minutes ago, Millicent said:

In some ways the program has added nothing new to what we already know. Ballet dancers are much more likely to suffer from eating disorders. Some of the dancers featured here admitted that they had eating disorders or mental health issues before they started at the schools, so I would question the wisdom of sending them there in the first place. I am in no way excusing the schools by saying that, but just questioning whether it's ever going to be a healthy environment for a child to go into if they are already struggling with eating disorders. 

 

However, any sunlight on these issues that plague the entire industry should be welcomed. The focus on the "right" body, which certain schools seem to focus on as more important than facility, technique or artistry, definitely needs to be challenged. The mention of the teachers' comments on weight is very concerning, particularly those that stray into bullying. Sadly, the people who are making the casting decisions that focus on "body type" are the people we need to convince to change. And with the power they wield how do we make that happen?

 

I thought one of the most interesting points was the coded messages given to dancers. Like not being fit enough or needed to lengthen their lines. I have heard similar coded messages about why dancers have been assessed out, including hiding behind qualities such as supposed poor turnout or other anatomical issues that surely the school would have already known about at auditions. I think there is a culture where everyone knows what that means but they think they can get away with it as long as though they don't actually come out and say "you're not thin enough for our aesthetic".

 

In fairness, the BBC notes that "both schools dispute the accounts given to the BBC". And the schools have no real right of reply as they are bound by confidentiality towards the students. I'm not questioning the authenticity of the people interviewed, just that we've only heard one side of the story.

 

I agree this is one side of the story. 
Also, when you look at company dancers don’t you see different shapes? There is no one particular look. Maybe that’s what schools are looking for but I don’t think companies are in the same way. Yes the women are slim but that goes with the territory of the intense training. It’s definitely not all flat chested and no behinds. 

[Millicent]

24 minutes ago, LukeJennings said:

The Panorama programme (to which I contributed) inevitably shows only the tip of the iceberg. The bullying and body-shaming described by the young men and women featured is symptomatic of something much wider. What the schools in question (and many directors and choreographers) fail to realise is that there's been a cultural shift; present-day audiences don't fetishise extreme thinness in the way that they do. We really, really don't. What we value is the expression of the authentic self. Most of the photos that the young people featured in the BBC programme bravely share with us - showing them looking morbidly thin and emotionally fragile - are the antithesis of any kind of authentic self. Ballet should be beautiful, but it should also convey strength, confidence and relatable human presence. The bullying and cruelty described in this programme (and described to me, over the last two decades, by far more ballet parents and students than I can count), destroys all of those things. Ballet needs to catch up. It's way behind the curve.

I completely agree with this. But how can we make that filter through to the powers that be? Ballet is wrapped in tradition - just think of the suspicion given to GM shoes because they are using modern techniques to make pointe shoes more comfortable - it's as if those "in charge" want children to experience the blood and pain of old-fashioned (traditional) shoes to "make them a better dancer".

 

There are so many outdated traditions in ballet. Unless those that have influence are prepared to change, what can we do as parents/teachers/audience members to convince companies that we want to see authenticity not "bones"?

[Millicent]

It's also interesting to note that when Steven McRae was recovering from his injury and was able to focus on good nutrition and strength, which changed his body significantly, he had some pushback on SM from people basically saying they preferred his body when he was less muscular! In what other industry (other than perhaps celebrity industry and the Royal family!) has it become normal for people to think they "own" your body and that it should conform to their personal preferences?!

 

(Needless to say he mostly had positive feedback on SM but the negative responses were so eye-opening.)

[Neverdancedjustamum]

13 minutes ago, Graceful said:

Yes I understand that but what about grammar schools? And actually academies seem to have a lot of power now. Plus you can’t just go to other schools. Lots of parents know how difficult it is to get your child a place at a school. This is part of a bigger problem. 
Financially the elite ballet schools have always been a problem for lower income families. So I don’t think the issue is about being able to leave the school for private training. You have to have a high level of training now before even being given a place at one of these schools. 
I agree the schools should do better, like all schools, and any system that is looking after our children. 
Parents surely have to know their children are experiencing issues and then why do they still send their children to these schools? I just don’t get it. 

I can’t speak for all grammar schools but speaking from personal experience of two grammar schools, the parents are regularly consulted with their children’s progress. Nothing is a surprise. Even in schools with 6-7 forms of 30 kids each, I never felt like my kids were overlooked. If any concerns pastoral or academic-related arise, parents are contacted immediately. One of my DCs fell slightly behind in a subject in Year 10. The school immediately organised additional support classes once a week for a term for a group of them and the majority of students who attended these classes ended up getting better GCSE results than they ever thought they could. The schools are very transparent and communication lines are very open. Ultimately, if children in these grammar schools feel upset for any reason during that day, they can come home to their families and be away from an upsetting situation. At age 11/12/13 I believe this is so crucial. Obviously this is only our personal experience of two grammar schools and I’m not on any way saying this is the same for all grammar schools. 
 

Why do parents send their kids to these schools? I can tell you the answer I’ve heard 100% of the time from numerous parents I’ve spoken to: because it is their kid’s dream.  In a way I admire these kids. I can’t imagine mine knowing what their dream career is until at least they go to Uni. Maybe not even then! I also admire the trust these parents place on their kids’ words. My kids have told me varying ambitions they’ve had since they were young. I questioned all of them. Sure enough, they changed their minds weeks or months later. Perhaps mine are just fickle. 

[Lindsay]

1 minute ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I can’t speak for all grammar schools but speaking from personal experience of two grammar schools, the parents are regularly consulted with their children’s progress. Nothing is a surprise. Even in schools with 6-7 forms of 30 kids each, I never felt like my kids were overlooked. If any concerns pastoral or academic-related arise, parents are contacted immediately. One of my DCs fell slightly behind in a subject in Year 10. The school immediately organised additional support classes once a week for a term for a group of them and the majority of students who attended these classes ended up getting better GCSE results than they ever thought they could. The schools are very transparent and communication lines are very open. Ultimately, if children in these grammar schools feel upset for any reason during that day, they can come home to their families and be away from an upsetting situation. At age 11/12/13 I believe this is so crucial. Obviously this is only our personal experience of two grammar schools and I’m not on any way saying this is the same for all grammar schools. 
 

Why do parents send their kids to these schools? I can tell you the answer I’ve heard 100% of the time from numerous parents I’ve spoken to: because it is their kid’s dream.  In a way I admire these kids. I can’t imagine mine knowing what their dream career is until at least they go to Uni. Maybe not even then! I also admire the trust these parents place on their kids’ words. My kids have told me varying ambitions they’ve had since they were young. I questioned all of them. Sure enough, they changed their minds weeks or months later. Perhaps mine are just fickle. 

This is absolutely it.  The schools are linked to the companies who ARE the dream.  And for most they are also boarding school.  Also, at grammar schools you don't spend hours every day with your growing and changing body dressed in a leotard and tights in front of mirrors, teachers and all of your peers........

[Kerfuffle]

Are the schools actually behind the companies in regards to aesthetics? Is this particular to lower schools only? At company level there must also be a requirement for bodies that can perform contemporary repertoire convincingly - much of which is more grounded and less ethereal? 
Something that I can never seem to find is where the lower school kids end up studying afterwards - this is surely part of being accountable too ? 

[taxi4ballet]

3 hours ago, Betty said:

It is a very upsetting programme and I’m very sorry to all of you that have entered a ballet school with such hope and joy for ballet and emerged with traumatic mental health issues. It is a disgrace that this has been tolerated and covered up for so long and continues to be minimized, brushed away as an individual problem about which institutions have different memories/records. Not good enough.

I do hope this is a moment for wider investigation and change - raising awareness is a crucial first step. All the best to everyone affected by this issue. 

It is six years since my DD had to leave full-time ballet training (is 6 years 'several' or more than several?) and she still feels unable to talk about it. She won't go there - she says she just can't even bear to think about how awful it was. She's shut it away, and got on with her life outside the dance world.

 

I have previously been approached by a journalist, however in view of my (now adult) DD's feelings on the matter, we were not able to assist them.

 

'Recollections may vary' sums it up very well when it comes to what I imagine would have been her school's view of what happened to her. They were incapable of seeing her point of view at the time, let alone now.

 

I'm out this evening, so will try to watch the programme when I can. I expect my blood pressure to rise to boiling point.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

13 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

This is absolutely it.  The schools are linked to the companies who ARE the dream.  And for most they are also boarding school.  Also, at grammar schools you don't spend hours every day with your growing and changing body dressed in a leotard and tights in front of mirrors, teachers and all of your peers........

Exactly what I thought. And normally at a time when the body changes so much too. I’m sure these things exist in some way in all schools and are not isolated to vocational schools but I’d be very surprised if the % of instances of for example, eating disorders, is the same across all schools. In such a small and confined environment, where the career being aimed for has a certain aesthetic, surely all these things are heightened.  I guess sometimes also for those who naturally have the ‘ideal physique’ and it’s genetic, it’s hard for these individuals and their families to imagine the struggle of those who are told to ‘lengthen’ or ‘improve their aerobic fitness’. Or for those who currently doing well and are used by teachers as examples, it will be hard to see the other side of the situation.

[taxi4ballet]

Just for clarification, my DD's departure from vocational training was not eating disorder-related. 

[Lindsay]

What would be really powerful here would be for a 'successful' company dancer who has been through these schools and perhaps been subject to these very dubious methods of 'instruction' or witnessed other students being subject to the same to speak out about their experiences.  That way there could be no allegations of "sour grapes".  But that would take a lot of bravery because dancers are always in the hands of the 'ballet establishment' for casting and promotion.  Even when they retire many are looking for jobs as coaches or teachers.  That is the dynamic that maintains this awful status quo within the British ballet 'monolith'.  And it is not just about body image.  It is about a culture where all students except the chosen few are, for whatever reason, written off as 'failures' in their teens.  The damage that can cause is not easily removed.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Lindsay

[Neverdancedjustamum]

42 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Something that I can never seem to find is where the lower school kids end up studying afterwards - this is surely part of being accountable too ? 

As far as I know this isn’t published information.  That’s why a post on a separate thread asking for evidence to support a comment about the lack of Elmhurst students going to WL/RBS made me wonder how any sort of evidence can be produced if schools don’t release this information anyway. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[taxi4ballet]

I have opened a thread on a popular parenting forum elsewhere on the internet (yes, okay, Mumsnet) in case anyone wishes to make comments which can't be made on here without making things impossible for our volunteer moderators by contravening the site rules.

 

Please, if anyone has anything really contentious to say, please avail yourself of that. We really don't want this thread on this forum to be hidden or removed. Thank you so much. 

 

[LinMM]

Probably not quite as bad as being written off at 11 as a failure via the 11plus exam in state schools! 
Thankfully no longer exists but you would be surprised at how many people would like to see it reinstated. 

[Betty]

Would the issues raised in this programme not meet a safeguarding threshold for ofsted or similar private school inspectors? 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

17 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Probably not quite as bad as being written off at 11 as a failure via the 11plus exam in state schools! 
Thankfully no longer exists but you would be surprised at how many people would like to see it reinstated. 

We live in probably the last county in the country where the default is for year 6 students to sit the 11+ (or ‘transfer test’ as they prefer to call it) unless parents ‘opt out’ their child from sitting it. I therefore know countless numbers of kids who didn’t make the qualifying mark, ended up going to comprehensive schools, and had a more brilliant and rewarding time than a number of those who go to grammar. I can’t even count with all fingers those who left comprehensive schools with much better GCSEs and ended in better unis. It’s horrible going through the the whole 11+ experience, I must admit, but I sincerely believe it’s easier and much more possible for both grammar and comp school children to eventually end up in the same, for example, Russell Group universities. I’m not sure it’s as easy for those who go to normal schools and train after school to go to the same vocational upper schools as those who go to these top lower school vocational schools. In the grammar school scenario, it’s especially cruel for those who just about missed the pass mark narrowly. But these children often end up shining in comprehensive schools and gaining more confidence achieving more there than peers who suddenly found themselves being small fish in a big grammar school pond where most children are as smart or smarter than them.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum