Beezie

Hello - Looking for some London-based summer dance camps that have a performance element and are a little more fun/flexible than a pre-pro ballet intensive. Tgt age is 11+. Any suggestions?

Personally, I would only suggest it if you could simultaneously do other auditions or if it was synergistic with a holiday to the US. For Houston Ballet, they also have a summer program. I could be incorrect, but I think some summer students are converted over to the student company (Houston Ballet 2.) I’m sure HB could answer such questions if asked….but exposure via a summer program may be more worthwhile than traveling for a large open audition. At least you get the whole 2 week experience. There are a good number of strong local dance programs within a 3 hour drive of Houston, so I think competition will be strong. I do think a RB dance style pairs nicely with Houston Ballet though; whereas a subset of the US schools will be more Balanchine or jazzy/showy.

I’d be quite keen to hear this answer too, but for girls. My hunch is that it’s a sliding scale based on the other assets a dancer has. However, with dance going more towards the extremes of movement, I get the impression that it is a more heavily weighted asset than it was 20 years ago. And since people with hyperextended knees are also usually naturally flexible (or appear more flexible due to leg shape), they probably tick two ‘asset’ boxes rather easily. On the converse side, I keep in the back of my mind that less flexibility tends to pair with more strength. It may not be appreciated in auditions at Y7, but ballet is also a bit of a long game. And strength will let a dancer perform longer into a career without injury. I would also say that some level of flexibility can be ‘dialed up’ at any age. I don’t know about yours, but my child hates flexibility exercises. I know she is not at her full potential right now, but she could be better if she ever had the mind to be. (I don’t really believe that you lose flexibility as you age. I got to splits in my 40s just for fun, after never being able to get them as a kid.) I also like to tell myself that maybe the pendulum swings the other way, with artistry and fast movement gaining popularity….but I don’t think that will play out in my child’s timeline. I do feel like some of these Instagram Extreme Flexibility ooogles have reached peak, and some people are starting to think it is overdone. Ditto for extreme hyper-extension. There is a point where you start getting an anxious feeling worrying about the dancers leg as opposed to admiring a beautiful line.

It’s a hard age to teach. Agree with others: some of the behavior issue may be waining interest. Some may be a ‘cool’ factor. Some may also be that it is easier to hide behind an ‘attitude’ vs try and fail. I do think kids in this age group tend to behave the best for teachers they like. Maybe this does mean doing something to bond, like organizing an outing to see a dance production. I would give it a try once, and see how it goes. (If those same kids misbehave at the event, I wouldn’t try again.) Another way you could try to bond with the students is to infuse personality in the class (yours or theirs): Ask all students what they like about dance. Find a funny or interesting historical story to tell about ballet…esp if relevant to the lesson or exercise. Let them spend some time at the end of class on improv or working on some choreography. Closer to recital time, maybe consider a class where the focus is learning to apply stage makeup. I also like the idea of a parent watch day. Whatever you do, I think you need a plan, and you need to execute that plan with structure and enthusiasm. That age is really good at sensing and capitalizing on adult hesitancy and self doubt. You describe this as being more of a recreational studio. I do think a lot of kids in the 14 year age-range start to ask ‘what does recreational dance really mean for me.’ They realize they are not in a trajectory to be a professional. They probably give up other school activities to dance, but to what end? Do they have good friendships in dance? Is there a big show at the end of term that they are looking forward to? Perhaps I am saying that most recreational activities have some overarching pinnacle goal: a game, a theater production, printing a newspaper, an art exhibition. However, there are a lot of recreational ballet studios feel the classes, in and of themselves, are the end product. And when there is an end-of-year recital, it tends to feel very orchestrated toward the baby ballerinas and their parents (which is usually where the studio is making the most money.) So figuring out a way to capture the hearts of 14 year old recreational dancers may be helping the figure out ‘what’s in it for them.’ Tough question, I know. I think that is why dance competitions have taken off, and why some studios have companies for teens (with segregated recitals and more serious pieces.) As you plan to take a larger leadership role in the studio, it is definitely worth a think.

I would further add that I think some of the verbiage around ballet makes people feel like they cannot be successful at dance if they aren’t successful at ballet. I think that is destructive. I can see why someone needs to take ballet to develop in other dance types, but they don’t need to excel in ballet in the same manner that a classical ballerina would excel in ballet.

May be an unpopular opinion, but I have tried a number of different dance forms as an adult. Ballet is the hardest (despite appearing easy to an untrained eye.). The discipline and muscle control needed to dance ballet seems close to unparalleled. I would believe, from limited experience, that being moderately good at ballet would build skills that would let someone excel at other dance forms.

@HLH It’s a great starting point for a vacation, if you want to get her set-up and then take a 1-2 week trip….returning at pickup. I recommend renting a car and hitting: Bruge, Ghent, Dinant, Aachen (Germany). You could also do a longer driving tour of just Germany; 2 weeks is enough to do a nice loop through Central Germany all the way down to Bavaria. Brussels is also a short train ride from both Amsterdam and Paris. ….so lots of vacation possibilities, but may need to put them on a map and overlay with how much driving you want to do.

@sunrise81 I highly recommend trying this year’s summer intensive. This should give your DD the best info on whether the school is a good fit.

Probably worth an email to make sure they sponsor visas and also see how many dancers have been accepted through past open auditions (don’t know if it is a shot-in-the-dark or 1-2 positions per year.). But it is one of the best companies in the US, imo. It’s nice that it is accessible to all, in some form or fashion.

Saw this posted, in case it is relevant to anyone: (via Facebook) Dancers, mark your calendars! Houston Ballet will be holding Company Open Auditions for the 2024-25 season on Sunday, February 25th, 2024. 🗓️ Auditions will take place here in our beautiful studios at the Margaret Alkek Williams Houston Ballet Center for Dance. Full details here: https://www.houstonballet.org/about/employment-opportunities/dancer-employment/

from Facebook: Houston Ballet Dancers, mark your calendars! Houston Ballet will be holding Company Open Auditions for the 2024-25 season on Sunday, February 25th, 2024. 🗓️ Auditions will take place here in our beautiful studios at the Margaret Alkek Williams Houston Ballet Center for Dance. Full details here: https://www.houstonballet.org/about/employment-opportunities/dancer-employment/

I would definitely encourage checking that the same teachers from the intensive are also teaching full time. I would also do some regular weekly classes. Intensives can be a recruiting mechanism, and can sometimes end up being a little ‘extra.’ I don’t think it is a guarantee of that the regular classes will be the same. At the end of the day, just remember that the journey is as important as the end goal. You should like where you are training. No one enjoys every single minute or an activity, but you should enjoy the majority of your time. Also, being from the US myself, I know that these studios have a way of ‘mentally securing’ students and families by discouraging choice through quiet and sometimes not-so-quiet disapproval. I would recommend pushing through this, if you feel it is happening. Trial another studio quietly, if you feel you need to. You should never feel guilty about this.

My daughter auditioned for Mids, and was quite put off by how much seemed to be a body/proportion/turnout assessment. She said there was hardly any dancing. I’m actually happy she didn’t make it, as we’ve found a smaller program that (from everything I have heard on here) is more comprehensive and provides more individual attention. DD is completely turned off from RBS now, as she independently came to the conclusion that they only care about looks….and that just isn’t cool, in her mind. While I am not saying that is accurate or inaccurate, I’m super proud of her coming to an independent assessment on the matter based on her audition experience. It means she is putting some mature thought into what type of training is most aligned with her values and aspirations.

Similar experience but at a younger age. We did one audition knowing the chances were low. When she wasn’t accepted, my DD used it as confirmation that she wasn’t good enough. In hindsight, her pessimistic response wasn’t from the audition. I think it was from a school that was too strict, and didn’t provide the kind and supportive feedback under which she thrives. She internalized the strictness/negativity from her dance classes and then her response to the audition was a manifestation of that. We are now at a much more supportive school, with a teacher that is hard….but more kind and positive with her students. I am seeing the love of dance and the confidence return to my DD. I also suspect that this environment is one in which she could audition and better handle the results. Each child has a unique learning style under which they thrive. My takeaway was that a school can have excellent teaching and still be a wrong fit…..and that quickly matriculates to poor student confidence (even when not warranted.) We have no unrealistic aspirations with auditions and dance careers. However, dance is meant to build life-skills. Being resilient through a failed audition needs to teach more than ‘I’m a failure.’ It needs to teach grit, and the ability to find fulfillment/silver lining in the ‘next best plan.’ I want a teacher/school that can help my child frame that message appropriately. Anyway, perhaps test if your DDs studio is fostering self confidence and enjoyment? Honestly, I missed the queues at the old studio. I’m kicking myself for the times my daughter told me ‘The teachers are kind of mean to the kids.’ I thought that was an over reaction to a tough-love mentality, as my observation was always that the teachers were kind and soft spoken. However, parents never got to observe the classes. I started to see the truth just as we were moving away. My daughter told me the dance teachers were yelling at the kids at the recital, AFTER the dance, because they weren’t on time. While ‘yelling’ may be up for interpretation, an end-of-year performance should conclude on a positive note for children < 13yrs. Children should not leave feeling criticized or demoralized, no matter how bad the dance was. (And it was still a beautiful dance in my eyes.). Yes, a subset of kids may not wilt under that type of behavior and take it constructively. My DD found it upsetting, saying ‘If I fail, I will be humiliated by the teacher in front of everyone.’

@Peanut68 Good cautionary note. I continue to think there is a world where a child can stay semi-professional in training, while living at home and prioritizing school. Yep, their chances at a professional career are decreased. Their ‘delta’ in training and effort would need to ramp up considerably around 14-16 (post puberty) if they really want to give it a go. …but until then, maybe less money spent (or saved to help later) and continued establishment of non-dance identity and education. Can the child and parent say they gave it ‘every effort possible’ with this approach? Probably not. But is that a huge regret if they gave it a ‘reasonable’ effort and it didn’t quite work out? It might be the more pragmatic approach.

Going back to some former comments. Students encouraged to get a breast reduction? …and for dance aesthetics? That is awful. It treats students like meat, with no recognition for the long term health implications. If my child, teen, young adult was told such a thing, we’d be running away as fast as we can. Students shouldn’t accept that. Parents shouldn’t either. I saw 2 dancers going to Ukraine National Ballet from a European dance school. Also raised my concern about how badly these young adults want a professional career. Ukraine is not safe. These dancers are potentially entering a war zone with some risk to life just to dance professionally. Is this what we want for our sons and daughters? Elective cosmetic surgery and risk to life?

Second careers I have heard of after ballet, from the people who have lived them: Doctor Engineer Stock Broker Creater of a Dance Festival Dance teacher (of course) Studio owner (of course) Corporate Executive Psychology degree-Don’t know the employment, as still in school. I really think anything is possible. I think it is most important that children plan for two careers. The first can be dance, but the second needs to be ‘what comes after dance.’ Keep up the education and recognize that a delayed entry into University won’t even be noticed in the grand scheme of things. The young adult is probably more self conscious about a late start in University than their peers. I bet their peers either don’t notice or think a professional dance experience (or attempted experience) is pretty cool. Great topic, by the way!

There is so much to unpack in that thread….and interesting that it started in 2008. With that particular thread, I would point out that ‘not all that glitters is gold.’ The American ‘parent voice’ in that thread is strong; meaning strong opinions that they have single-handedly navigated the most direct path for their child to success. (American speaking here, btw.) I have seen a lot of collateral with regard to high hours and child burnout or injury as American parents strive for the ‘Keeping up with the Jones’ mentality. And in the end, I don’t know the actual % of hopefuls to % of professionals is any different. Is it better for children to burnout or be injured out…..or to be assessed out? Maybe the former is easier on the child and parent, as it can be seen as a nobody-at-fault run of bad luck….though clearly without other ramifications. (A tag-on to some comments in that thread saying UK programs lack hours.) I’ve previously pointed out some positives of US dance culture. I was just a little shocked and taken aback by the tone of some of the comments in that particular thread.

@taxi4ballet Exactly that! Every sport is taught to cheer on their players. If you are coming in last in a race, your whole team and coach will be cheering you on….because they know it takes talent and courage just to get to the point where you are standing at the starting line! And you may still lose the race, but you feel supported until the very last AND personal accomplishment when you do your best. I listen to my other child’s coaches. Their dialogue and words. Their dialogue isn’t their own personal invention….or if it is, they are missing a calling as a great orator. Rather, I think they have spent a lot of schooling, thought, and collaboration to find those special words and phrases that push, motivate, and build-up children of that particular age. It is very conscious, and I think they act with this partitioned personality where they only bring their best traits to the field. (Granted, I know that isn’t every coach.)

@taxi4ballet Not British, but after hearing all that is said here I completely agree with you. Furthermore, there are a lot of references to foreign dancers being ‘hot housed.’ I don’t even think it is this. I really think it is just the idea of a ‘shiny new’ student. There is an interesting study that shows that humans, when asked to chose between a known prize and a mystery prize, overwhelmingly chose the mystery prize. Even when presented with enough information to assess that the mystery prize is likely of lesser value, they STILL choose the mystery prize. It is the same driver that has people play the lottery over and over. It has to be the same physiological profile that has Dance Schools continually choose the new and unknown students. So maybe Dance Schools are just dupes for their own psychological weaknesses. It also plays perfectly into the comments on here suggesting that many of these same schools/teachers don’t have the psychological where-with-all to provide a safe, competitive, and supportive environment for their students. It really should cause some self-reflection by the schools, themselves.

I have always felt like this was a problem with ballet. There is not enough ‘middle ground.’ It seems like everyone is aiming for ‘Professional,’ because the opportunities to be ‘Really Good’ and have an enjoyable adolescent experience are too limited. I also feel like the deficits in dance are a little ridiculous, so are hard to explain to a parent. Like: Your kid’s foot doesn’t have a bony bump on top….or….Your kid’s knee doesn’t bend unnaturally backwards, which is a liability but sure looks pretty. I completely understand parents hearing that and thinking “Surely that isn’t a make-it-or-break-it attribute.” And kids thinking the same as well, because they dance beautifully. So perhaps it is harder to hear these comments, as they often sound a bit nonsensical. I would also add, from personal experience, there is such a wide range of teacher responses to facility. The most direct feedback (removing some polite qualifiers) was: “I’m looking for natural flexibility and turnout in the students I train. I don’t want to work with them at developing flexibility, even if they could get there with hard work.” Fine. Very Vagonova. But in what other sport would we allow a coach to say “I am only looking for children who are naturally tall, and then they can join the team.” That type of sorting isn’t acceptable until what? Maybe late teen years at earliest. But in the ballet world, those types of comments seem to be common starting at 9yr old. In fact, they seem to be the cornerstone of the training programs at many famous ballet schools.

Agree with this. When you overlay some European culture norms with ballet and then try to translate to English, the end product is quite tough. I would not call our European experience, even with little kids, nurturing. It’s somewhere between ‘tough’ and ‘tough love.’ But I also recognize every region has a slightly different culture as does every school.

Having changed after-school ballet programs several times, it feels like there are 3 categories I see consistently across US, EU and UK: 1. Recreational - Fun, positive, but will not keep pace for higher-level opportunities. 2. Pre-professional, body-type first: These are the pre-professional/pre-vocational programs that look for genes first (feet, turnout, extensions) and then think they can train the dancer. I’ve gotten honest feedback from these schools, but they have not been enjoyable for my daughter. (I also equate these to White Lodge and the other programs we are discussing.) 3. Pre-professional, art/passion first: These are the pre-professional/pre-vocational programs that allow a lot of different body types and try to develop them to their utmost potential. They are not producing too many professional dancers, but have a lot of parent loyalty. (As a result, they can also come with some parent drama.). And unlike recreational programs, they are of higher level of training. Before I mentally distilled these 3 groups, we ended up targeting one of the #2 schools. Despite a lot of technique progression, my daughter wasn’t happy. Just too much attention given to girls that were naturally bendy, and the rest were ignored. I’ve come to feel like the #3 schools are the sweet-spot. We can keep up the training at a good level and see how puberty goes.

From my US experiences, I have seen a culture where the norm is training through after-school studios. Here are the pros and cons I see: Pro: -Constant eyes on your child -Children maintain non-ballet friendships -Children can integrate back into the non-ballet world more easily Cons: -Difficulty finding quality teaching. It exists but takes more investigation. -Parents need to be more active in ballet training, including more driving to practices etc (I stress….lots more driving to get the same experiences.) -Children more likely to self-select out. (This might be a pro, depending on whether they would have left ballet anyway….and if they leave on better terms.) -When you get into private after-school training, some teachers will keep you hooked because it is their revenue stream. It is hard to get a true understanding of capabilities. -No sense of ‘being discovered.’ Admittedly, the way these ballet school are run allows young parents and students to initially feel like rock-stars. (Debatably, this might be the beginning of the ‘grooming’ people discuss.) I would also just add that after-school programs can be toxic too. Parents need to always remain vigilant. And sometimes you don’t fully understand if a situation is toxic until you have removed yourself and your child from that environment. It supports a situation where you want to diversify your childrens’ experiences….perhaps different classes and associates affiliations.

There is 1) general enrollment and 2) the decisions of parents on this forum. I agree that general enrollment in these schools won’t be affected. There will always be a family willing to fill the slot based on the school’s prestige. But to point #2…. There are parents of younger children reading this, now, and questioning their own decision-making as parents. Hearing parents say time-and-again that they would decide differently if they knew? That’s powerful. It might change a single girl or boy’s experience. And if these schools do start to see professional dancers ‘make it’ outside their system, they will eventually take notice. And other parents should take notice too.