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Guest oncnp
7 minutes ago, zxDaveM said:

 

that would probably get you tickets for casts/shows you didn't want to see, at prices you didn't want to pay....

Kinda like the current system.....

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I think that the booking problems really add insult to injury; the injury being a) the DQ prices, so I was booking worse tickets than usual as it was, and b) the fact that the biggest roles in Nutcracker (Clara, Hans Peter and Drosselmeyer) are unknown and therefore we are having to book blind.

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DQ pricing feels deliberately mean.


for central amphi row P and the two rows behind (basically taking you to the back of the amphi) are £52! 
 

But then the six (?) rows in front are £67, so for £67 you sit much closer to the stage. If you can afford this, this is better value (the front rows, not the back of this band and not generally compared to previous prices!). It feels the prices are deliberately pushing people to either pay far more on the “value” point, or overpay to sit at the back or forcing people to restricted views. The proportion of rows within the bands feels just mean (far more rows at £67 than £52) and if you’re row N it’s just a terrible deal - £67 to sit that far back! 
 

it definitely feels more tactical than previously (where I felt there was generally the same number of rows give or take per band) in a malicious way. It feels like the expensive bands have creeped further up the sides as well - I think I sat towards the end of row L for around £34 for Beauty, this is £52 for DQ. By the time you get to row J it’s at £67 or above! 
 

I think it’s obvious much of the anger isn’t about price increases generally (although this is valid and part of it) but the tactical way they have moved around bands to squeeze more reasonable seats - people paying less to compromise on a non central view, or enlarging some bands while narrowing cheaper bands. 
 

I don’t understand why my ticket for jewels in row H is £41 and DQ are charging £67. (I know Australian ballet may have dictated pricing on this and they will have had sponsors support etc but it’s still costly to mount an international tour.) 

 

I won’t compromise on a restricted view for ballet, I’d rather just go less, which overall results in me spending less. 

Edited by JNC
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The fact that the prices are this much and this is how we are treated, is crazy to me, only half of the casting that we really desire and then all these booking problems. I might have to opt out of any ranking of the ROH Friends because is it really worth it?

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On 03/07/2023 at 11:06, David said:

The preoccupation rightly has focussed on the absurdity of the pricing structures but my family remain equally concerned re the dearth of casting information. With our booking slot due in a couple of days there is no way that we will be booking for The Dante Project  and The Nutcracker unless we know who will be dancing and when. It looks like we are going to save a lot of money!

In the end I caved in and booked two tickets for final eve Dante…

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1 hour ago, Vanartus said:

In the end I caved in and booked two tickets for final eve Dante…

I want to know the casts before I book and am surprised there is not any information on casting yet.

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Guest oncnp
1 minute ago, jules_skichick said:

I'll join your boycott.. £26 to stand.....disgraceful increase

 

Except it ended up being £14 when they actually went on sale

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Guest oncnp

Just a reminder that Insights go on sale starting Tues 18 July (theoretically at least) 

 

General: 2 August 2023, 9am

Young ROH: 1 August 2023, 9am

Friends: 18 July 2023, 4pm

Young Friends: 18 July 2023, 4pm

Friends+: 18 July 2023, 3pm

Supporting Friends: 18 July 2023, 2pm

Premium 1 Friends: 18 July 2023, 12pm

Premium 2 Friends: 18 July 2023, 9am

 

Don Quixote                       18 Sept 2023              7.30PM

The Limit                             6 Oct 2023                7.30PM           CAMERA FILMING

Underscoring The Royal Opera House

                                            12 Oct 2023               7.30PM          CAMERA FILMING

Fallen Angels                      5 Nov 2023                12.30PM        CAMERA FILMING

The Nutcracker                 21 Nov 2023               7.30PM

 

 

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On 06/07/2023 at 05:09, Lynette H said:

Nor directly related to booking woes, but to the autumn season - I'm sure there was originally supposed to be a Winter Draft works scheduled for 11 December, which I expected to be in the autumn booking period. It seems to have vanished entirely.  There's no trace of it now. 

 

There is an Autumn Draft Works which I think is new. 5 OCTOBER 2023, 7PM.  Autumn Draft Works (roh.org.uk)

 

General: 2 August 2023, 9am
Young ROH: 2 August 2023, 9am
Friends: 2 August 2023, 9am
Young Friends: 2 August 2023, 9am
Friends+: 2 August 2023, 9am
Supporting Friends: 2 August 2023, 9am
Premium 1 Friends: 2 August 2023, 9am
Premium 2 Friends: 2 August 2023, 9am

 

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On 16/07/2023 at 09:56, oncnp said:

Just a reminder that Insights go on sale starting Tues 18 July (theoretically at least) 

 

General: 2 August 2023, 9am

Young ROH: 1 August 2023, 9am

Friends: 18 July 2023, 4pm

Young Friends: 18 July 2023, 4pm

Friends+: 18 July 2023, 3pm

Supporting Friends: 18 July 2023, 2pm

Premium 1 Friends: 18 July 2023, 12pm

Premium 2 Friends: 18 July 2023, 9am

 

Don Quixote                       18 Sept 2023              7.30PM

The Limit                             6 Oct 2023                7.30PM           CAMERA FILMING

Underscoring The Royal Opera House

                                            12 Oct 2023               7.30PM          CAMERA FILMING

Fallen Angels                      5 Nov 2023                12.30PM        CAMERA FILMING

The Nutcracker                 21 Nov 2023               7.30PM

 

 

I logged on at my time and there were no tickets for any events I wanted to see. I was not impressed!

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Guest oncnp
2 hours ago, Linnzi5 said:

I logged on at my time and there were no tickets for any events I wanted to see. I was not impressed!

 

You might want to check when general booking opens. They may have held some tickets back. 

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On 22/07/2023 at 10:48, Linnzi5 said:

I logged on at my time and there were no tickets for any events I wanted to see. I was not impressed!

There are often late returns. I usually get hold of a ticket in the week/day leading up to the insights.

Worth noting that at my booking level at least there is a one ticket limit, so I think it is as fair as it could be. It’s great that these events are 1. Streamed to the public and 2. Made available to all (including returns - I usually just keep a tab open on my desktop to keep my eye out) whereas as an example, these sorts of studio events are only available for certain levels of membership at ENB. 

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1 hour ago, Blossom said:

 It’s great that these events are 1. Streamed to the public and 2. Made available to all (including returns - I usually just keep a tab open on my desktop to keep my eye out) whereas as an example, these sorts of studio events are only available for certain levels of membership at ENB. 


Completely agree about the RB Insights but ENB’s Friends and Patrons, at all levels, seem to be offered very little apart from the opportunity to book for a very occasional ‘insight’ hour or so and space is more limited at their HQ than in the Linbury or the Clore at the ROH.

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I can’t remember when the last master class was offered by ENB. The last one I attended was in November 2019 but has nothing really been offered since then apart from reduced ticket prices etc. 

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Following the Don Q standing price volte-face, I’ve had some email exchanges with Alex Beard about more general pricing concerns. Once the seat maps were finalised, I had a look at the prices for all the Autumn productions, opera and ballet as there is concern that ballet prices have increased at a faster rate than for opera, particularly for cheaper seats. I looked at a couple of productions from Autumn 2018, Carmen and Nutcracker, the most expensive opera and ballet that Autumn, as @Bluebird had kindly posted seat maps for that quarter earlier in this thread, and it’s helpful having some longer term perspective.

 

For all productions I was interested in the top price, a restricted view Balcony seat, Stalls Circle Sides bench seats, Amphitheatre Sides Row E, Slips maximum price, and Standing maximum price.

 

By expressing all these seat prices as a percentage of the top price for the production, it’s relatively easy to spot patterns. If there’s a consistency in patterns, that could be taken as evidence of fairness - the comfort and view offered from a particular seat/standing place is identical whatever the production (save where the set creates obstacles as has occasionally happened).  Where there isn’t consistency and percentages look very odd and out of step when compared to other productions, that might suggest a degree of unfairness and questions can be asked as to whether audiences are being overcharged or indeed undercharged where the ROH is potentially missing out on additional box office revenue. In the table below, I’ve highlighted in bold those prices which look odd and where there may be overcharging or occasionally undercharging. Some of these might be the ‘mis-steps’ in the ROH’s statement about its decision to charge £14 rather than the £26 originally proposed for Don Q Standing tickets.
 

Apologies for the presentation. I tried attaching a file but hit the buffers as the document (even a PDF version) exceeded my limit so I’ve had to paste a table into this post. Some of the formatting went rather awry which I’ve tried to tidy and there’s a chance that what looks ok when drafting a post doesn’t quite make it when posted.

 

Production

Top Price

Balcony Central Block Restricted (eg A33)

Stalls Circle Sides Bench Seats (eg B26)

Amphitheatre Sides (Row E)

 Slips (Max)

Standing (Max)

Autumn 2023

 

 

 

 

 

 

Das Rheingold

   £325

                                               £146

                                            £133

£146 £138 £87 £64

         £43

             £25

 

 

                                                45%

                                              41%

45% to 20%

         13%

               8%

La forza del destino

   £245

                                                £118

                                              £86

£118 £86 £65 £48

         £32

             £19

 

 

                                                48%

                                             35%

48% to 20%

        13%

               8%

Rigoletto

   £220

                                                         £146

                                              £78

£97 £78 £49

          £49

               £24

 

 

                                                          66%

                                             35%

44% to 22%

         22%

                 11%

L’elisie d’amore

   £210

                                               £100

                                              £74

£100 £74 £56 £42

         £28

             £15

 

 

                                                48%

                                             35%

48% to 20%

         13%

               7%

Jephtha

   £200

                                                 £96

                                               £71

£96 £71 £52 £40

         £28

             £16

 

 

                                                48%

                                             36%

48% to 20%

         14%

               8%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nutcracker

   £160

                                                         £108

                                                     £108

£88 £68 £50 £32

         £21

             £12

 

 

                                                          68%

                                                       68%

55% to 20%

         13%

               8%

Don Quixote

   £150

                                                         £104

                                              £83

£83 £67 £52

           £14

             £14

 

 

                                                          69%

                                              55%

55% to 35%

           9%

               9%

The Dante Project

   £130

                                                           £80

                                                       £80

£66 £51 £39 £29 £21

        £21

             £14

 

 

                                                          62%

                                                       62%

51% to 16%

         16%

             11%

Anemoi/The Cellist

     £110

                                                           £67

                                              £50

£50 £39 £29 £22

         £16

               £9

 

 

                                                           61%

                                             45%

45% to 20%

         15%

               8%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Autumn 2018

 

 

 

 

 

 

Carmen

   £200

                                                 £94

                                              £72

£94 £72 £52 £40

         £30

             £15

 

 

                                                47%

                                             36%

47% to 20%

         15%

               8%

Nutcracker

   £125

                                                  £74

                                               £67

£67 £50 £35 £28 £21

         £21

             £10

 

 

                                                 59%

                                              54%

54% to 17%

         17%

               8%

 

Discussion of table
As regards opera, there’s a shared pattern for 4 of the 5 productions where prices as a percentage of the maximum price are broadly consistent. But Rigoletto does look to be very much an outlier. The prices for the restricted view seats in the Balcony, the Slips and Standing are all very high: indeed the Slips are £6 more expensive than for Rheingold. These all look like overcharges to me.

 

Turning to ballet productions, the generic point that stands out is that the Balcony and Stalls Circle cheaper tickets are consistently a higher percentage of the top price than for opera (save for Rigoletto Balcony which looks very out of step as mentioned above). I can appreciate that discounts may tail off as the top price reduces (opera tends to be higher price than ballet) but the differences are pretty significant and have become more pronounced in recent years. Looking at the 2018 Carmen and Nutcracker figures, opera prices as a percentage of the top price have not changed markedly between 2018 and 2023. Ballet prices in 2018 were a higher percentage of the top price compared to opera but now they are an even higher percentage. That suggests to me that either ballet prices have increased unfairly or that the ROH is undercharging for a swathe of lower priced opera tickets, missing out on significant extra box office income, or a combination of the two.

 

Last Season, there was a very strong reaction to the £112 charged for Stalls Circle bench seats for Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella, the same price as the Balcony restricted view seats. But for both Nutcracker and Dante this Autumn, the ticket prices for a good seat in the Balcony, albeit with some restrictions because of the safety rail to one side, and Stalls Circle Sides, bench seats with a very poor view, are the same (£108 for Nutcracker and £80 for Dante). For the other ballets (and the operas, excluding Rheingold), Stalls Circle Side bench seats are cheaper by some 15% when compared to the Balcony restricted seats. I must say when I ended up booking an extra Sleeping Beauty performance in a Stalls Circle Sides bench seat, I’d rather assumed it must be a reasonable seat, equivalent to a Balcony restricted seat, because I was paying £112 for it, the same as for the Balcony seat. But the bench seat was poor value for money and I really can’t see any justification for charging the same price for what are two vastly different experiences.

 

I think it’s worth emphasising the unfairness of these prices in more detail. Ballet audiences for Nutcracker are charged £108 for Stalls Circle Sides bench seats. Opera audiences for all operas save Rheingold pay significantly less in terms of cash (£71 to £86) for the same seat despite the top prices fir all operas being significantly higher than for Nutcracker. Hence in relative terms the Nutcracker price is even more extortionate. Nutcracker audiences pay 68% of the top price. For the four operas, audiences pay 35%. That would equate to £56 for Nutcracker as opposed to the £108 ticket price.

 

I included Amphitheatre Sides Row E in the table above as there have been earlier comments from @bridiem and others. When I first contacted Alex Beard, primarily about the proposed £26 Don Q standing price, I’d mentioned concerns about the Don Q Amphitheatre Sides prices. Having looked at the prices for all productions, Don Q really does stand out with the cheapest tickets in Row E being 35% of the top price. For all other productions the cheapest tickets are some 20% of the top price. For Dante the cheapest seats fall to 16% and are the same price as Slips which looks very odd, in part because Dante has 5 price categories for Row E.
 

Row E also illustrates the complexities that flow from having multiple seat maps. For Don Q there are just 3 prices for that row. (Rigoletto also has 3 prices but isn’t out of step with other operas.) Most productions have 4 prices and as mentioned above Dante includes a 5th price. It seems to me there’s an arbitrariness regrading the allocation of seats to the 3, 4 or 5 price bands in Row E Sides and I’m sure there’s an arbitrariness to seat allocations in many other parts of the theatre.

 

Don Q stands out as regards the price charged for Slips. For all other productions, Slips are some 15% of the top price. Bizarrely the Don Q price is 9% of the top price, £14 the same as the eventual Standing price. I can’t understand why this has been done and it looks like a case of undercharging.

 

It’s worth at this stage looking back to Autumn 2017 when there was one seat map which covered all main house productions, seats being allocated to price categories for the quarter if not the full season. Top prices were set for each production and prices for other seats broadly flowed from those top prices. I think there’s much to be said for one seat map in terms of fairness. Some allocations and pricing looked pretty sensible. The Balcony restricted view seats weren’t as heavily discounted and the Stalls Circle bench seats were significantly less expensive than the Balcony restricted view seats albeit ballet seats were relatively more expensive than opera seats:

 

Autumn 2017

Top Price

Balcony Central Block Restricted 

Row A;     Other Rows

Stalls Circle Sides

Bench Seats (eg B26)

Boheme

£230

£184;           £97

£73

 

 

80%;           42%

32%

Nutcracker

£125

£106;          £74

£59

 

 

85%;            59%

47%

 

Conclusions from Autumn pricing
From the analysis of Autumn 2023 prices, it seems to me there were a number of ‘mis-steps’, not just the Don Q standing ticket proposal but also: Don Q Amphitheatre Sides (overcharged) and Slips (undercharged); Rigoletto Balcony Centre restricted, Slips and Standing (all overcharged); and Dante Amphitheatre Sides (undercharged).

 

Ballet prices for some medium priced and lower priced tickets seem very expensive relative to opera tickets and on occasions ballet tickets cost more than opera tickets for the same seat. The prices charged for Stalls Circle Sides bench seats for ballet (Nutcracker and Dante and last season’s Sleeping Beaty and Cinderella) are I think the worst example, truly extortionate prices.

 

The proliferation of seat maps has generated enormous confusion and arbitrariness as regards seat allocations. Amphitheatre Sides Row E illustrates the issues with 3, 4 or 5 price categories for 15 seats. 
 

I don’t accept that multiple seat maps are necessary for maximising box office revenue when there are so many examples of missed opportunities for increasing revenue. Not just the Don Q Slips and Dante Amphitheatre Sides undercharging ‘mis-steps’ highlighted above as the ROH should also consider:

 

a) Reducing the very generous discounts given to opera tickets compared to ballet tickets probably over a number of years (I say more about this in relation to the benefits of having one seat map below);

 

b) Reducing the discount given to Balcony Central Row A restricted view seats (as was operating in 2017). I think Balcony A33 and A53 must offer the best value for money for opera - 45% of the top price for Rheingold;

 

c) Reviewing the seat map to ensure that all prices are set appropriately - if Don Q and Dante standing tickets are £14, why are Nutcracker standing tickets not £15 rather than the £12 charged? An extra £3 per standing place would have the potential of generating some £4,000 during the Nutcracker run.

 

I accept this won’t be popular but rather than launch a Don Q experiment where prices are way out of step compared to other productions and where we’ve seen how the strong the reaction was, I’d have thought a more reasonable case could be made for increasing the price of the best standing places. An extra £5 for the 30 best standing places would have the potential of generating £30,000 extra box office revenue in a season.

 

Advantages of one seat map 
I think there’s much to be said for having one seat plan. It helps promote fairness and consistency with seats not being arbitrarily reallocated to different price categories and where audience members can understandably feel aggrieved when finding seats are placed in higher price categories.

 

With a standard pricing model as was used in Autumn 2017, the prices for each production need to be determined and a simple financial model which calculates box revenue from seat prices selected would enable those responsible for proposing prices and those taking decisions to look at the effect of fine tuning prices on overall box office revenue. 

 

There is now a very marked difference between the relative prices for opera and ballet performances and I’d have thought through careful analysis of a seat map and financial model, it would be possible to reduce the discounts for opera productions compared to ballet productions, not in one go but staggered over a number of years and not necessarily eliminating the differential pricing in its entirety. But I’m sure reducing the discounts would generate significant additional box office revenue, where simple manipulation of the financial model would give quantification.

 

Internal controls 

As well as offering comments on pricing, I raised a number of questions about the ROH’s internal control processes which hadn’t picked up the pricing ‘mis-step’. I’ve no idea what processes the ROH operates but good practice might well include ensuring the following are in place:

 

a) There’s a clear statement of pricing policy which might cover: income generation; recovery of costs over a production’s life; an element of fairness where restricted view seats receive similar discounts; and promoting accessibility with x% of tickets being priced at £y or less. As an aside on this point why not have the £y based on 4 times the minimum hourly wage rate or a multiple of living wage, whatever is most appropriate? Such a metric would give the ROH the possibility of seeking to increase the percentage of seats at or below the chosen metric whereas that’s simply not possible with modest inflation, let alone the high levels of inflation we currently experience;

 

b) There’s a credible seat map and consistency in pricing so as to support the pricing policy;

 

c) Responsibilities for proposing and reviewing/approving prices are clearly assigned. I’d like to think that all appropriate teams are consulted on pricing proposals including box office, membership and legacies and I see considerable merit in taking soundings from audience members/Friends;

 

d) And critically, whoever is responsible for pricing presents helpful, comparative analysis to those reviewing/approving prices with summary tables flagging up anomalies, questions and risks. It’s no good simply distributing proposed seat maps and expecting busy people to work out what’s going on and how prices compare production by production. 
 

Email correspondence continues but I thought I should at least give an update of the issues raised. The Winter Magazine should be published fairly soon as Premium 2 Friends Booking opens 5th September (and Patrons can book before then) so we should see Winter prices published at some point in August although I guess we’ll probably have to wait for the seat maps.

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This is a superb analysis, @JohnS! Thank you so much for all the time and work you've put into it. It displays a level of coherence and clarity that I simply don't see in the ROH's pricing 'strategies' which have produced such inconsistent and often unfair outcomes. Perhaps 'fairness' is not something that they're bothered about in practice; but given their public subsidy, it must. And what's disturbing is that the outcomes above are surely not the result of any real ticket pricing 'strategy' on the part of the ROH at all - how could a serious 'strategy' produce such a mess of inconsistencies?! I very much look forward to hearing any conclusion/s that come out of your email correspondence, and I hope that the ROH will take your comments on board at the earliest opportunity.

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That is very interesting to read @JohnS. As someone who's been going to opera at the ROH for a lot longer than for ballet, the differening proportionate price for the area where I usually sit, the stalls circle bench seats, has been very apparent to me. However it worries me is if, now it has been drawn to the ROH's attention, they respond not by lowering the ballet prices but by increasing the opera prices which, given how much higher opera top prices are than ballet top prices, would mean I would be priced out of the stalls circle & would no longer be able to afford to attend opera performances.

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5 hours ago, JohnS said:

The Winter Magazine should be published fairly soon as Premium 2 Friends Booking opens 5th September (and Patrons can book before then) so we should see Winter prices published at some point in August although I guess we’ll probably have to wait for the seat maps.

I received the Winter Mag a few days ago....Manon is priced at:

Stalls £140/120/99

SC far Sides  £49/34/14/8

Stalls Circle  £140/120/99/79/63/49/34/14

Grand Tier  £140

Balcony  £120/99/79/49/14

Slips  £14/8

Amphi  £99/79/63/49/34/14/8

Edited by Richard LH
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6 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

I received the Winter Mag a few days ago....Manon is priced at:

Stalls £140/120/99

SC far Sides  £49/34/14/8

Stalls Circle  £140/120/99/79/63/49/34/14

Grand Tier  £140

Balcony  £120/99/79/49/14

Slips  £14/8

Amphi  £99/79/63/49/34/14/8

 

This feels expensive for Manon, which sometimes sells rather slowly. Assuming the £34 Amphi price applies to the front sides, that's a very steep increase on the £18 I paid in October 2019 during its last run.

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2 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

Assuming the £34 Amphi price applies to the front sides, that's a very steep increase on the £18 I paid in October 2019 during its last run.

The Magazine doesn't make it clear exactly which prices apply to which seats....we await the seat plans as @JohnS mentions.

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1 hour ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

This feels expensive for Manon, which sometimes sells rather slowly. Assuming the £34 Amphi price applies to the front sides, that's a very steep increase on the £18 I paid in October 2019 during its last run.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, this is not as steep as the rise in the price of the front side amphitheatre for Don Q:

 

Don Quixote prices 2019 v 2023:

 

February/March/April 2019:  Front side amphitheatre priced at £19

 

September/October/November 2023: Front side amphitheatre priced at £52

 

Of course, we have no way of knowing if the £34 price applies to these seats.  If they follow the Don Q pattern, they'll be in the £49 band!!!

 

Edited to add that I've just compared the way the prices are laid out in the Winter Magazine to the way the Don Q prices were laid out in the Autumn Magazine.

 

Don Q Amphitheatre  £104 £83 £67 £52 £36 £26 £14

Manon Amphitheatre £99  £79  £63 £49 £34 £14 £8

 

As we know, due to: "a small number of mis-steps, brought to our attention by our valued friends and patrons", the places in the £26 price band for Don Q were reduced to £14 because this band included the Stalls Circle Standing places where these 'mis-steps' had occurred.  However, the £36 and £52 bands remained and were unchanged. 

 

If the price bands prove to be similar to the Don Q price bands, the rear amphitheatre and the restricted view rows L and M seats will be £34 but the A-E front side amphitheatre will be £49.

 

I sincerely hope that this interpretation of the pricing details in the Winter Booking Period Magazine proves to be wrong.

Edited by Bluebird
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