Vocational schools yesses and no's

[Raquelle]

39 minutes ago, Mum of unicorn dancer said:

I second to that as it has very nurturing environment- at least what we can see from her associates and I think kids doing academically quite well too. 

I've got a friend with a daughter at yda and it sounds great. If they had a boarding house I would have definitely considered it for my dd but she didn't want to live with  family x 

[Lara Eschler]

53 minutes ago, Mum of unicorn dancer said:

I second to that as it has very nurturing environment- at least what we can see from her associates and I think kids doing academically quite well too. 

Same, while ds just joined associates this January and it has only been on zoom, he really enjoys the class. I appreciate the way communication has been with me , very approachable and personable and yes academics seem good for year 7. 

[Pointytoes]

Gosh there seems to be as many urban myths and misconceptions as ever about assessing out at RB. 

Pupils can  not continue their training even if they have the money as the body needs to suit their particular style of training and why would you leave your child in an establishment where the teachers felt their training was not working for them? 
Not all students who are told the Royal style of training no longer suits them go to YDA. They redirect their focus to a wide range of establishments. 
Other schools use the fact they don’t assess out as a selling angle, but from personal experience this brings disadvantages too. The lack of rigid  assessments and meeting these  means the  retaining of pupils who don’t meet the expected marks in assessments from term to term. As a result, there is a very wide spectrum of abilities over time which effects the overall standard. The approach is to have a nice dance environment and this serves its purpose too but can be frustrating for other pupils.  

On balance parents rarely turn down RB( though it has happened) but praise highly other schools who retain for 5 years. 
There are advantages and disadvantages to both, it is the British system of vocational training. 
 

[Mrs Tea]

1 hour ago, Lara Eschler said:

Interesting you say that, YDA actually seems the best fit for my ds at present for year 7 and for us as a family. 

I know a friends son who is at YDA, it sounds excellent.

[Farawaydancer]

17 minutes ago, Pointytoes said:

Gosh there seems to be as many urban myths and misconceptions as ever about assessing out at RB. 

Pupils can  not continue their training even if they have the money as the body needs to suit their particular style of training and why would you leave your child in an establishment where the teachers felt their training was not working for them? 
Not all students who are told the Royal style of training no longer suits them go to YDA. They redirect their focus to a wide range of establishments. 
Other schools use the fact they don’t assess out as a selling angle, but from personal experience this brings disadvantages too. The lack of rigid  assessments and meeting these  means the  retaining of pupils who don’t meet the expected marks in assessments from term to term. As a result, there is a very wide spectrum of abilities over time which effects the overall standard. The approach is to have a nice dance environment and this serves its purpose too but can be frustrating for other pupils.  

On balance parents rarely turn down RB( though it has happened) but praise highly other schools who retain for 5 years. 
There are advantages and disadvantages to both, it is the British system of vocational training. 
 

 

However, not assessing out gives time to those who are ‘slow burners’ like my ds. Not all children develop at the same rate. Each school is very different, if you’re lucky enough to have a choice you really just have to go with the one you feel will be right for your child. 

[Whiteduvet]

Plus there’s the mental aspect to it.  Can your child cope with regular assessments and the worry of having to leave or their friends having to leave? That would have been very difficult for me as a teenager. 

[Shelly123]

 I assume this year they won’t assess out due to being on zoom for a larger percentage of the school year ?

[Lara Eschler]

10 minutes ago, Farawaydancer said:

 

However, not assessing out gives time to those who are ‘slow burners’ like my ds. Not all children develop at the same rate. Each school is very different, if you’re lucky enough to have a choice you really just have to go with the one you feel will be right for your child. 

My ds is definitely a 'slow burner' wish we had another a year. I would be concerned about the disruption to academic progress from being assessed out, also if a school heavily assesses out , it begs the question about the reliability of their initial assessment process in determining potential and also about the efficacy of their training. Any concrete examples about what could go wrong for boys for instance? 

[Pointytoes]

I think that is why parents must choose their school based on what is correct for their child, not based on urban myths or sales pitches. 
The turnover of pupils at all vocational schools in this country is something that cannot and should not be ignored. 
Some schools have a very specific way of training others less so and as ballet is such a subjective, artistic sport  what is seen as trainable in one year can change dramatically over a period of a few years.

There is no transparent criteria for any of these schools!  
Vocational life for most parents is really only the beginning of a long long road. 

There is no rule of thumb or best fit for all children. 
Mental health is a whole other topic for young dancers at present wherever your child studies ballet. Good luck to all parents and children alike, each journey remains unique! 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pointytoes

[Darcey15]

I don’t know anyone who had theirs removed at Tring 

[Balletmumlife]

It really is your own personal decision when deciding on schools. We went through it all last year and I heard negative stories about some schools. If we had listened to these we wouldn't of let our DC go anywhere. We made our own decisions from our audition visits and talks and also where our DC wanted to go which I think is hugely important, not just the parents making the decisions. My child knew about the positive and negatives of school choices. So far in our short time of vocational training it has been the best decision we made as a family for our DC and they are extremely happy. It is hard work and not for every child at 11 years old leaving home, but this environment is totally right for us at the moment. So please don't be put off by stories you hear, there are positive stories out there too of vocational training at 11. 

[Pointytoes]

Absolutely! I should add I have two children happy at vocational ballet training! 

 

[Lifeafterballet]

I have just discovered on Instagram “The hard-corps ballet” podcasts. It is young dancers talking about their vocational journeys and experiences. Well worth a listen. 

[BalletBoyMumma]

19 hours ago, Lara Eschler said:

Hi everyone, 

I just  have a question out of curiosity, I see that WL confirms offers for the following year to existing pupils at round this time. This would be too late to apply to other schools, so I was wondering what do families do with the uncertainty, do they apply to schools before Christmas just in case? And for children not given a place for the following year, do they stay until the end of the school year? This is just a a curious and naive question not meant to upset or annoy anyone or make a judgement on a school. Thank-you. 

Gosh, I hadn’t even considered this. So do all the students generally apply everywhere else as a ‘just in case’? Every year (barring GCSEs)? 
That’s another potential headache (and financial burden) to consider.

Do they see who the potential incoming students are based on the applications and prelim auditions and then decide who of their current students to keep based on that??? ☹️ That’s the only reason I can see for this timing. I guess this is the downside of highly selective schools but it’s good to know about. 

 

Also have a ‘slow burner’ here. Praised for musicality but struggles to keep up with technique. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by BalletBoyMumma

[Betty’s mum]

My DD is yr 7 at The Hammond and I could not praise this place enough, the balance between academics and dance I feel is just right (she would however dance all day) the school is warm and nurturing, but from what I have seen so far they also push the dancers a lot, there are assessments and personal targets. Ballet classes are split by ability not yr group (I do not know if this is standard) and although the main dance focus is ballet, they do learn other genres of dance & personally I feel, particularly in this climate it will pay to be a versatile performer, at the end of the day we want them to get work doing what they love. Just look at what BRB are doing lately, quite a move from your traditional ballet roles. My DD totally lacked confidence in her ability, and The Hammond has changed that already, I do not know what the future may hold but I am so glad their is no assessing out, as I want het to be in control of when she moves on (if she does) 

[Flower]

17 minutes ago, Betty’s mum said:

My DD is yr 7 at The Hammond and I could not praise this place enough, the balance between academics and dance I feel is just right (she would however dance all day) the school is warm and nurturing, but from what I have seen so far they also push the dancers a lot, there are assessments and personal targets. Ballet classes are split by ability not yr group (I do not know if this is standard) and although the main dance focus is ballet, they do learn other genres of dance & personally I feel, particularly in this climate it will pay to be a versatile performer, at the end of the day we want them to get work doing what they love. Just look at what BRB are doing lately, quite a move from your traditional ballet roles. My DD totally lacked confidence in her ability, and The Hammond has changed that already, I do not know what the future may hold but I am so glad their is no assessing out, as I want het to be in control of when she moves on (if she does) 

This is all really really helpful to know. How do they work the academic stuff? Is it by ability?  Do you find it rigorous? Homework?  Does she board? Anyone else able to give a perspective on this stuff from another school?

[Dancing unicorn]

I have to say my dd loved her time at Hammond too! She did far better academic wise than her previous Voc school. And ended up with far better GCSE results than she would have got before moving! Both academic and dance teachers were amazing and cared about the students ❤️

[The red shoes]

2 hours ago, Lara Eschler said:

My ds is definitely a 'slow burner' wish we had another a year. I would be concerned about the disruption to academic progress from being assessed out, also if a school heavily assesses out , it begs the question about the reliability of their initial assessment process in determining potential and also about the efficacy of their training. Any concrete examples about what could go wrong for boys for instance? 

I only know of a boy “assessed out “in year 9 due to his lack of growth. He then went to Tring and is doing incredibly well. He doesn’t look small or under developed to me in the slightest.. bit what do I know 🤷🏼‍♀️

[meadowblythe]

2 hours ago, Dancing unicorn said:

I have to say my dd loved her time at Hammond too! She did far better academic wise than her previous Voc school. And ended up with far better GCSE results than she would have got before moving! Both academic and dance teachers were amazing and cared about the students ❤️

 

Exactly same experience - and roles were shared more equitably than previous school, where you were "in" or "out". And even when Dada declined for sixth form, they moved heaven and earth to help find a place that was going to suit.

[PrancingMum]

9 hours ago, Lara Eschler said:

I also thought Elmhurst gave you a 5 year commitment to training dc. Does Tring assess out self-funded places? 

There may have been recent changes but a friend of DDs who went to Elmhurst was assessed out and she has another who has been on their warning list where they have to pass elements of their assessments and have if they don't they have time to improve.  These are DDs words so I will leave it up to someone with inside knowledge of their assessment system to correct me.

 

The Tring MDS scholarship policy is on their web site and clearly states that if the MDS is removed they can stay if funding is found to pay fees.  I have no idea if they have ever assessed out but I understand that this policy has only really be implemented since the new Dance Directors have been in post.  My DD doesn't know anyone not an MDS so we have no information as to whether or not those without an MDS are treated differently in terms of their assessments and assessing out but they all go through the same assessments and feedback sessions.  As with other schools there will be overseas pupils who are not eligible for the MDS.

[sunrise81]

Elmhurst do seem to assess quite frequently. Dd gets an assessment showing where she is at, and her end of term report was quite detailed. They always say that they will have conversations with you if there are any concerns re progress. But dd is only yr 7 so that's all we know so far.

[Ms Sunshine]

My dd year 8 at Elmhurst has had no girls leave in her group since starting year 7. Only one girl and one boy added at the start of year 8. 

[Farawaydancer]

53 minutes ago, PrancingMum said:

There may have been recent changes but a friend of DDs who went to Elmhurst was assessed out and she has another who has been on their warning list where they have to pass elements of their assessments and have if they don't they have time to improve.  These are DDs words so I will leave it up to someone with inside knowledge of their assessment system to correct me.

 

Elmhurst have changed their assessment system completely in the last 18 months, and it’s a definite commitment to offer five years now, unless there are very major issues such as very long term injury. 

[Dancing Kitty]

1 hour ago, sunrise81 said:

Elmhurst do seem to assess quite frequently. Dd gets an assessment showing where she is at, and her end of term report was quite detailed. They always say that they will have conversations with you if there are any concerns re progress. But dd is only yr 7 so that's all we know so far.

 

1 hour ago, Ms Sunshine said:

My dd year 8 at Elmhurst has had no girls leave in her group since starting year 7. Only one girl and one boy added at the start of year 8. 

 

20 minutes ago, Farawaydancer said:

Elmhurst have changed their assessment system completely in the last 18 months, and it’s a definite commitment to offer five years now, unless there are very major issues such as very long term injury. 

That’s good to hear - Elmhurst definitely sound very supportive. 😊

[sunrise81]

8 minutes ago, Dancing Kitty said:

 

 

That’s good to hear - Elmhurst definitely sound very supportive. 😊

Dd has just said that they have an assessed lesson every 3 weeks and they know it is. They then get feedback in their tutorial lessons. She says she likes that as they get told what they are improving on and what they need to work on. Formal assessments and reports are sent home end of every term.

[jsbjsb25]

1 hour ago, Ms Sunshine said:

My dd year 8 at Elmhurst has had no girls leave in her group since starting year 7. Only one girl and one boy added at the start of year 8. 

I know the school can take more pupils on if they really like someone but I'm dreading the emails coming through if there is no chance of even getting a call back for y9 intake.😔 I'm hoping still 🙏  you just never know.x

[Ms Sunshine]

58 minutes ago, jsbjsb25 said:

I know the school can take more pupils on if they really like someone but I'm dreading the emails coming through if there is no chance of even getting a call back for y9 intake.😔 I'm hoping still 🙏  you just never know.x

Best of luck!!!!

[Betty’s mum]

7 hours ago, Flower said:

This is all really really helpful to know. How do they work the academic stuff? Is it by ability?  Do you find it rigorous? Homework?  Does she board? Anyone else able to give a perspective on this stuff from another school?

Her timetable at the moment consist of about 4 hours each day of dance, and then the normal academics alongside. Academic classes are small, with only 21 (I think) in her year, so not split yet. Dance is by ability and not all 21 dance as some are drama students, I think about 15 yr7s dance. They have no PE & have subjects like healthy dancer where they learn about nutrition etc. She does board, which she totally loves, the boarding house is walking distance from Chester town center, they are allowed into town at weekends to shop (in small groups) So basically on a school day they get on the bus from boarding house at 7.45, eat a really good breakfast at school then the school day is a mixture of academics and dance. The academic day ends at 4, they then have another 2 hours of dance, then dinner and back to boarding house for 7, homework until 8, then free time until lights out at 9.

In total she gets about 18 hours of dance.. I hope this helps.. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Betty’s mum

[Dancing unicorn]

This has just made me smile 😁

I can vouch for all the above! My dd loved walking into Chester of a weekend with friends. 
There’s also the famous Christmas Carol Service at Chester Cathedral each year! The Cathedral is always absolutely packed out (and it’s not a small  Cathedral either!) the singing is absolutely amazing! 
And of course there are the Shows! Sends shivers down my spine just thinking about them! Superb!! 

[Betty’s mum]

15 minutes ago, Dancing unicorn said:

This has just made me smile 😁

I can vouch for all the above! My dd loved walking into Chester of a weekend with friends. 
There’s also the famous Christmas Carol Service at Chester Cathedral each year! The Cathedral is always absolutely packed out (and it’s not a small  Cathedral either!) the singing is absolutely amazing! 
And of course there are the Shows! Sends shivers down my spine just thinking about them! Superb!! 

Sadly we did not get that this year, but did catch the show last Feb and I was blown away.. I could not believe the standard... it truly is the most wonderful school in every way. 

[Miss Tutu]

My dd is at The Hammond and I cannot speak highly enough of the school 

dd does around 20 hours a week dancing in various ability groups  . My dd struggles academically and has been given 1-1 for at least 1-2 hours per week but never misses a dance lesson for it.The dancing although ballet is the core is very versatile  which is what sold  the school for us and they really encourage you to sing also which is what's needed in the dance world these days, I was lucky as my dd has always been versatile although she loves ballet she also loves all styles of dance and  singing too which I found was the only school to offer it all at 11.  The staff  really do care about the individual child and are very approachable unlike some of the other schools ,the pupils who attend are also so supportive of each other which is lovely to see .

[Dancing unicorn]

Couldn’t agree more academically. Dd is not/was not academic! Previous school she was left behind, no help at all. Only extra classes laid on were for the more academic!
Unlike Hammond, where they went out of their way to help the less academic. Even laying on extra tuition early mornings for GCSE years! And the children WANTED to attend in the morning before normal school started! 
I remember one of the teachers saying at a school meeting one time ‘you’ll have to carry me out in a box before I leave here I love teaching these kids so much’. And it showed in their results.

Fabulous 💗
 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Dancing unicorn

[Betty’s mum]

My DS is at an independent non dance school and gets nothing like the support from the Hammond. Having lockdown school gives you an opportunity to really see what the school is like. I have been so impressed, they care about well-being along side academics and dance, keeping it all going so well.