Vocational schools yesses and no's

[sunrise81]

The only thing the uniform bursary doesn't cover is formal uniform......we bought ours second hand and glad we did.....she has worn it once 🤣

[Tdc34]

@sunrise81this is so helpful, thank you so much! And @cotes du rhone ! thank you for your help too😀 It’s so useful finding out these ‘real life’ examples of what it’s all like, especially if you’re like us and are the first child from our dance school to apply for Vocational school so don’t really have anyone else to talk to about it all.

Edited February 12, 2021 by PurplePirouette
Added

[sunrise81]

1 minute ago, PurplePirouette said:

@sunrise81this is so helpful, thank you so much! And @cotes du rhone ! thank you for your help too😀 It’s so useful finding out these ‘real life’ examples of what it’s all like, especially if you’re like us and are the first child from our dance school to apply for Vocational school. 

She is ours too!!! The fee calculator on Elmhurst is quite accurate. You just need to know about these extras. Normally they would have also had theatre trips and weekend trips so that has saved a bit. I also send her with pocket money as when they go to the.park they like to get an ice cream.or hot chocolate.......but I send her with a box full of tuck to keep her going! Have to say our weekly shopping bill has increased since she arrived back home!!!!

[Tdc34]

Haha I can imagine re the food and snacks, probably the biggest bill of them all!! X

[Pointytoes]

7 hours ago, PurplePirouette said:

This is such useful information, thanks so much for sharing. Can I ask, do you know if this is the same for everyone on an MDS at Elmhurst, or does what’s included vary from person to person? 

 

 

I think there are many factors to weigh up 

regarding costs. Having had DC at both, MDS superficially seemed to cover more at Elmhurst, however you can apply for a music bursary to RB which can cover music lessons. 
Uniform and leotards are not covered, but there are other aspects to take into consideration. 
Healthcare is by far superior, class sizes overall are much smaller. It depends on how you view value for money. 
Regardless, we have found all ballet schools in general to be money pits!😂

[BalletBoyMumma]

Thank you. So grateful for all of this info. Please always share the good, the bad and the ugly aspects of vocational training and boarding. The honesty is so helpful. 
 

What have DCs found down time to be like at each school? Do they get to spend much time outdoors? Can they bring their favourite things with them or is it very limited? 

Also, assessing out when it happens? How do the schools balance this with not disrupting formal studies too much? Is it done as kindly as possible or is it quite abrupt? 

 

(I hope you guys don’t mind all the questions 🙈 We haven’t really had any chance to find out about these things yet - a bit late for us this year, we may be back next year, but could help others paint a picture). 

Edited February 12, 2021 by BalletBoyMumma

[SissonneDoublee]

25 minutes ago, BalletBoyMumma said:

Thank you. So grateful for all of this info. Please tell us the good, the bad and the ugly aspects of vocational training and boarding. 😁 
 

What have DCs found down time to be like at each school? Do they get to spend much time outdoors? Can they bring their favourite things with them or is it very limited? 

Also, assessing out when it happens? How do the schools balance this with not disrupting formal studies too much? Is it done as kindly as possible or is it quite abrupt? 

 

(I hope you guys don’t mind all the questions 🙈 We haven’t really had any chance to find out about these things yet). 

I always get the impression that DD has more downtime than her non-vocational but serious dancing friends, as her classes fit into the school day whereas they are dashing from school to the studio and trying to squeeze homework (where teachers often don’t understand the demands on their time from dancing) and dinner. She definitely has time to relax every evening, and at weekends and school holidays too. (There is class on Saturday morning if not an exeat weekend, but by lunchtime they are done.)

At her school they are outside a lot, there is a big grassy area where they sit and chat, and they are encouraged to eat outside at picnic tables when the weather is good. 
This year they have been asked to take ‘essentials only’, due to increased cleaning and the risk of having to suddenly pack and return home, but normally she takes an absolute car load of her favourite things! The school encourages them to take lots of photos etc to make their living space personal.

The last assessing out point at all the lower schools (as far as I know) is in year 9. If they get into year 10 they are there until the end of their GCSEs. Similarly, they don’t assess out until year 8, to give children a fair chance at settling in and working with them. So it’s only really years 8 and 9 when they do, and not all the schools have a policy of assessing out at all. You would hope that the warning signs would be there beforehand, but I’m not sure that that is always the case. I have known a couple of families that have been completely shocked by the news. I think maybe always being prepared for the fact that it could happen is a wise approach.

Ask all the questions that you need to! We have all been there, and been helped by parents further down the line than us when it was our turn xx

Edited February 12, 2021 by SissonneDoublee
Auto correct issues!

[Clara67]

54 minutes ago, Pointytoes said:

I think there are many factors to weigh up 

regarding costs. Having had DC at both, MDS superficially seemed to cover more at Elmhurst, however you can apply for a music bursary to RB which can cover music lessons. 
Uniform and leotards are not covered, but there are other aspects to take into consideration. 
Healthcare is by far superior, class sizes overall are much smaller. It depends on how you view value for money. 
Regardless, we have found all ballet schools in general to be money pits!😂

Could you possibly elaborate a bit on what you mean about the healthcare? Also, do you mean academic class sizes? My DD’s ballet class at Elmhurst has 14 girls, and her friend’s at WL has 15, so they seem very similar? They’re with the boys for academics at Elmhurst, so are they not at WL? Thank you. 

[BalletBoyMumma]

29 minutes ago, SissonneDoublee said:

I always get the impression that DD has more downtime than her non-vocational but serious dancing friends, as her classes fit into the school day whereas they are dashing from school to the studio and trying to squeeze homework (where teachers often don’t understand the demands on their time from dancing) and dinner. She definitely has time to relax every evening, and at weekends and school holidays too. (There is class on Saturday morning if not an exeat weekend, but by lunchtime they are done.)

At her school they are outside a lot, there is a big grassy area where they sit and chat, and they are encouraged to eat outside at picnic tables when the weather is good. 
This year they have been asked to take ‘essentials only’, due to increased cleaning and the risk of having to suddenly pack and return home, but normally she takes an absolute car load of her favourite things! The school encourages them to take lots of photos etc to make their living space personal.

The last assessing out point at all the lower schools (as far as I know) is in year 9. If they get into year 10 they are there until the end of their GCSEs. Similarly, they don’t assess out until year 8, to give children a fair chance at settling in and working with them. So it’s only really years 8 and 9 when they do, and not all the schools have a policy of assessing out at all. You would hope that the warning signs would be there beforehand, but I’m not sure that that is always the case. I have known a couple of families that have been completely shocked by the news. I think maybe always being prepared for the fact that it could happen is a wise approach.

Ask all the questions that you need too! We have all been there, and been helped by parents further down the line than us when it was our turn xx

Oh thank you!!! ❤️
 

So helpful. I can imagine your DD does have lots more free time than non-vocational students - that’s definitely a big positive. Rest time is so important for them. Also to just be kids.  Being around friends so much must be lovely. 

Burnout worries me - also peer pressure in a state school, I worry DS won’t continue for long. We know a few boys who’ve quit ballet while still in Yr7 of our local schools.  
 

The COVID restrictions must be tough but great to hear that she gets to personalise her space well. That must make such a huge difference. 
 

Really good to know about the assessing out being only in yr8/9. Thank you. I’ve heard some horror stories but they’ve been rumours and not any direct experiences (apart from on this forum, which has been far more helpful, both on the positives and negatives). I can imagine the schools still deal with all the issues a normal school does, like bullying. And you are right, they are selective schools so there’s always the chance of being assessed out. But if it’s dealt with kindly and with the student in mind, then it’s fair enough. We live not too far from a selective school that assesses children out academically each year. It can be brutal! 
 

[Fudge]

4 hours ago, Farawaydancer said:

 
And then there’s the mysterious ‘miscellaneous’ items that are added each term, that no one ever explains! 🤣

Don't forget to factor in the time spent travelling/petrol if you dc comes home for the weekend. Ours was a 5 round trip until Dd was confident enough to do the train. Many hours spent on the mway!  Then the hotels for shows and Xmas performances. As soon as we had confirmation of these dates for I would book hotel accommodation to get the best rates. There are many hidden extras on this journey. 

[Lifeafterballet]

5 minutes ago, Fudge said:

Don't forget to factor in the time spent travelling/petrol if you dc comes home for the weekend. Ours was a 5 round trip until Dd was confident enough to do the train. Many hours spent on the mway!  Then the hotels for shows and Xmas performances. As soon as we had confirmation of these dates for I would book hotel accommodation to get the best rates. There are many hidden extras on this journey. 

So so many extras ££££

Easter and summer schools. Auditions for other schools in year 11. And then the job hunting ! We must have spent thousands on international travel for auditions. Ds went to Budapest, Amsterdam, Prague, Germany and Sarasota all in about 5 weeks 😅 Then Estonia and Poland last summer ! Dd did Austria, Sibiu, Sarasota, Orlando and Miami. She had more lined up but Covid but paid to them.
When you start on this journey you have to be prepared for the expense. And it doesn’t stop after they have graduated. With hardly any paid contracts out there it’s the parents who then end up paying a company for their children to dance with them. They call it an apprenticeship 😢 Ds was lucky to get paid. Dds university isn’t going to cost us a tenth of what ballet did 🤣 The only regret we have money wise is that we continued to pay for something that made her unhappy ☹️ 

[meadowblythe]

 

Don't forget to check which spaces are available for down time as well as the time periods  - these vary dramatically between schools and if you have a sporty child some will be more suitable than others.

 

Also whilst the extras are wonderful, our DC have always known that they wouldn't be able to audition worldwide - we couldn't afford the air fares - and summer schools were picked with care as funds were limited.   DS did a variety of summer schools  but was never, for example, able to go to Prague.  He was fortunate that he got paid job offers from both his first 2 European auditions.  Maybe not the finest companies but he earnt enough to keep himself and relished being financially independent.  

 

It's all turned out OK and you do need to think of the extras.  But you also need to keep those honest conversations going about what is, and isn't possible.  

 

When musical DD joined her school in year 10 the first two trips on offer were skiing in Canada and the bi-annual trip to Mount Everest.  I apologised but she couldn't go.  The response:  with respect mum it doesn't matter.   You couldn't afford the school trips at my state school but it's cool.  Didn't make me feel any better at the time, or since, but it would have been worse to say yes for the wrong reasons.  

 

 

[Peony]

I think there is generally a lot more pressure on parents to fund all these experiences and a lot more marketing towards young people nowadays. My goodness a trip to Everest would be the culmination of a number of years of working and saving and a once in a livetime experience for me, not something I’d fund for a 15 year old! 

[Lifeafterballet]

5 minutes ago, Peony said:

I think there is generally a lot more pressure on parents to fund all these experiences and a lot more marketing towards young people nowadays. My goodness a trip to Everest would be the culmination of a number of years of working and saving and a once in a livetime experience for me, not something I’d fund for a 15 year old! 

I think the funding of extras is not necessarily to keep up with the Jones’s but sometimes to find the love of ballet that gets eaten away at vocational school. Also, to get a job, which is the end goal after all.

[Peony]

I’m not saying it’s based on anything other than wanting to provide for your child. The expensive associates, performance opportunities, summer schools etc largely did not exist when I was a child. The whole point of MDS places is to level the playing field, it’s wrong that parents are having to fund so much in addition 

[Snowyday]

Hello Everyone, I would love to have some thoughts about the Performance Foundation Course for Middle School at Tring.  I know this thread is about the dance course but I'm looking for a bit of guidance.  Before I launch into our issues - does anyone have experience of their children doing this course?  

 

[Jan McNulty]

Hello Snowyday and welcome to the Forum!

[Nath]

On 07/02/2021 at 21:32, Whiteduvet said:

1) You don’t need to get into all schools (or even more than one). You just need to get into the right school; which may not be the ‘biggest’ name or the one everyone assumes is the best (although obviously it may well be). Every child is different and every school is different: you need the best fit. Look at the bios for the Royal for example: not many did Ja’s/WL/US. Many different routes. The important thing is what suits your child at this point in his/her life. 
 

2) This is a marathon not a sprint. Most children who start even vocationally at 11 won’t make it professionally for many many reasons. And those who start off as the ‘favourites’ may fade over time. They may not but it’s not set in stone in year 7! Whatever they do has to be sustainable which is why (1) is so important. 

I so agree with that. My DD entered a full time vocational school at Year 7 and hated it. She did not progress anymore. I decided to take her out mid Year 8 after auditioning her in NY for a number of Summer Intensives of classical schools there and getting some feedback about her level versus potential. Since then she’s been training vocationally at a Vaganova method ballet school without academics which she does at home. The results could not be more different. She’s now mid Year 10 and we are starting to orientate for Upper Schools. We are not looking at big names anymore, just places where we think she might thrive and get the attention she deserves. We do that through talking about it often, making lists of pros and cons. The process is indeed long and getting through vocational training does not mean they are cut out to work in a company. That’s a whole different kettle of fish they need to prepare for which the schools do not do.

[Lara Eschler]

Hi everyone, 

I just  have a question out of curiosity, I see that WL confirms offers for the following year to existing pupils at round this time. This would be too late to apply to other schools, so I was wondering what do families do with the uncertainty, do they apply to schools before Christmas just in case? And for children not given a place for the following year, do they stay until the end of the school year? This is just a a curious and naive question not meant to upset or annoy anyone or make a judgement on a school. Thank-you. 

[The red shoes]

4 hours ago, Lara Eschler said:

Hi everyone, 

I just  have a question out of curiosity, I see that WL confirms offers for the following year to existing pupils at round this time. This would be too late to apply to other schools, so I was wondering what do families do with the uncertainty, do they apply to schools before Christmas just in case? And for children not given a place for the following year, do they stay until the end of the school year? This is just a a curious and naive question not meant to upset or annoy anyone or make a judgement on a school. Thank-you. 

Good question and one I have been thinking too. The logistics seem tricky but something to think about as not every year is guaranteed . The plus side of Elmhurst is no assessing out so not as cut throat every year. 

[junedancer]

4 hours ago, Lara Eschler said:

Hi everyone, 

I just  have a question out of curiosity, I see that WL confirms offers for the following year to existing pupils at round this time. This would be too late to apply to other schools, so I was wondering what do families do with the uncertainty, do they apply to schools before Christmas just in case? And for children not given a place for the following year, do they stay until the end of the school year? This is just a a curious and naive question not meant to upset or annoy anyone or make a judgement on a school. Thank-you. 

 Current WL pupils were told yesterday if they have places for next year: in the case of Year 9s it will be a place for Year 10 and 11 and for those in Year 11 it will be a final audition for Upper School.  Those in lower years will be "helped" (not sure how officially)if they wish to get finals auditions at other schools and those going to Upper School will have been applying elsewhere anyway.  Not all choose to stay and will have planned to leave at the end of the year from all year groups.  Some decide to leave the school before the end of the summer term but most appear to stay on and finish the year.  We know personally of those who have decided the school wasn't for them and had planned to audition elsewhere, those who have been assessed out and found places elsewhere and those who have decided dance is not for them and left.  The same will happen at all vocational schools.

[junedancer]

15 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

Good question and one I have been thinking too. The logistics seem tricky but something to think about as not every year is guaranteed . The plus side of Elmhurst is no assessing out so not as cut throat every year. 

Elmhurst does assess out but not in the same way as WL.  They have a clearer assessment and improvement system where you have a series of "warnings".  Tring also only guarantee funded places for a year at the time so effectively assess out also.

[Flower]

Oooo didn’t know that about Tring. 

[Whiteduvet]

Me neither! 

[Lara Eschler]

8 hours ago, junedancer said:

Elmhurst does assess out but not in the same way as WL.  They have a clearer assessment and improvement system where you have a series of "warnings".  Tring also only guarantee funded places for a year at the time so effectively assess out also.

I also thought Elmhurst gave you a 5 year commitment to training dc. Does Tring assess out self-funded places? 

[Lara Eschler]

9 hours ago, junedancer said:

 Current WL pupils were told yesterday if they have places for next year: in the case of Year 9s it will be a place for Year 10 and 11 and for those in Year 11 it will be a final audition for Upper School.  Those in lower years will be "helped" (not sure how officially)if they wish to get finals auditions at other schools and those going to Upper School will have been applying elsewhere anyway.  Not all choose to stay and will have planned to leave at the end of the year from all year groups.  Some decide to leave the school before the end of the summer term but most appear to stay on and finish the year.  We know personally of those who have decided the school wasn't for them and had planned to audition elsewhere, those who have been assessed out and found places elsewhere and those who have decided dance is not for them and left.  The same will happen at all vocational schools.

Glad to hear pupils would be helped applying elsewhere as most deadlines would have passed for academic schools as well. 

[Clara67]

40 minutes ago, Lara Eschler said:

I also thought Elmhurst gave you a 5 year commitment to training dc. Does Tring assess out self-funded places? 

That’s correct that Elmhurst do now give a five-year commitment to those who join in year 7 (“subject to good health and behaviour”) - it’s changed from what they did in the past.

[Whiteduvet]

Presumably the loss of funding isn’t the loss of a place: if you can find the funds you can continue? Just for most it would sadly result in the same conclusion. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Whiteduvet

[Lara Eschler]

3 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:

Presumably the loss of funding isn’t the loss of a place: if you can find the funds you can continue? Just for most it would sadly result in the same conclusion. 

So would MDS funded pupils go through more rigorous or separate assessments each year? I am just realizing how little I know about everything.  

[Nath]

57 minutes ago, Lara Eschler said:

Glad to hear pupils would be helped applying elsewhere as most deadlines would have passed for academic schools as well. 

WL usually sends students they assessed out to Young Dancers Academy. I hardly consider that ‘helping’. 

[Ruby Foo]

55 minutes ago, Nath said:

WL usually sends students they assessed out to Young Dancers Academy. I hardly consider that ‘helping’. 

 
This is completely untrue. 
The choice of school is left completely up to the student. 
Some of the schools students have gone on to include Elmhurst, Tring, Moorlands, Hammond and plenty European Schools or private coaching.

[Lara Eschler]

1 hour ago, Nath said:

WL usually sends students they assessed out to Young Dancers Academy. I hardly consider that ‘helping’. 

Interesting you say that, YDA actually seems the best fit for my ds at present for year 7 and for us as a family. 

[Mum of unicorn dancer]

8 minutes ago, Lara Eschler said:

Interesting you say that, YDA actually seems the best fit for my ds at present for year 7 and for us as a family. 

I second to that as it has very nurturing environment- at least what we can see from her associates and I think kids doing academically quite well too.