Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Jeteitallaway]

My Dancer is now in a mainstream school  after very recently studying at one of the schools featured on panorama. They were assessed out with no official warning , however I suspected that their build would play a part . There was extreme favouritism in the  year group . The children are treated so differently from one another and it causes resentment, low self esteem  in those who are not in favour and egotistical behaviour from those who are .From what I’ve seen and heard  it is even worse further up the school. One student is repeatedly featured in performances, social media posts , program covers etc . Many of you will think this post is sour grapes . It’s not ! Ballet was never the dream I had for my child . If I’m totally honest I’m not even sure it was truly theirs .I’m relieved that we have stepped off the rollercoaster and glad that the opportunity was taken and we were never left wondering what if . Let’s hope that that now this has been addressed so publicly that schools will now have no choice other than to abolish outdated practice and move forward into a healthy happy environment where young dancers can flourish . 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Jeteitallaway
Identified sex of child

[Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Balleteveryday said:

Does anyone have links to anyone with kids in the schools now? What is the messaging that they are receiving off the back of this? Given the huge financial investment I hope it’s a more reassuring and proactive message for parents than what was sent to those of us with some but significant more limited investment.

What I hope is that there is some attempt at honesty and providing safe and confidential channels for current students to express any concerns they might have.
 

What I fear (which is what happened with some of the music schools) is that staff informally rally students to defend the school against “attacks” by ex-students and “outsiders” and portray all criticism, however justified, as “harmful to the current students”…

[Geoff]

By way of comparison, anyone remember this Deborah Bull story from over 20 years ago:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jun/30/sarahhall

[Viv]

12 hours ago, Anna C said:

If a child is selected for one of the best and most famous institutions in the world, we should be able to entrust them to that institution without the fear that they will be abused, bullied, shamed, humiliated, driven to self-harm or worse. 

 

I think this is a really good point @Anna C and it reminds me of some of the comments by Maggie Nichols parents in the documentary Athlete A. I remember her father saying that looking back, they can see all the red flags along the way, and they can see how naive they were to trust these institutions. But this wasn't Jimmy's Podunk School of Gymnastics. This was the Olympics. This was USA Gymnastics. Institutions that have spent decades, and millions of dollars, engendering trust and faith in their programs. Specifically marketing "the dream". Pointing to other countries and saying wow isn't it terrible what they do, but you can trust us, we're home grown, we would never. Institutions that rely on their excellent policies and shiny external face to reinforce that trust and the perception that Things Like That don't happen here. To now blame people for trusting those institutions, often with the result that their children have been harmed and abused, seems nothing short of cruel...

 

I think it's important to remember that it's only in the last few years that these kinds of allegations against major British institutions have actually been made publicly. There might have been whispers about so and so teacher, or problems with eating disorders in ballet and companies generally, but the schools have been kept relatively insulated from that scrutiny. Instead, the schools have put out beautifully crafted media announcements about all the great things they are doing for mental health and healthy eating habits. Any allegations of the "dark side" have been dismissed as sour grapes, bad apples, or simple anomalies (attitudes I am very concerned to see continuing to be perpetuated throughout this thread). It's only really been in the past few years that the veil has been pulled back. Even on this forum, having been popping in and out of here for years now, the general tone and willingness of people to discuss their negative experiences has changed massively. To suggest that extent of these issues, at these particular schools, was well known and publicly acknowledged outside of the small ballet community, and that parents at large ought to have been aware, is quite simply delusional. And if that is the argument someone wishes to make - the better question is why has this been allowed to be a publicly acknowledged issue for years and nothing has been done about it?

 

As for any argument that parents who send their children to what is now understood to be an abusive environment are somehow more culpable than the schools, who could, I don't know, NOT BE ABUSIVE? Well, I'm afraid any response I try to make to that would infringe the Acceptable Use Policy. 

[Hadtopost]

I have read the comments on this thread.

I have read the newspaper articles and watched the Panorama programme.

Not one thing that I have heard or read has contradicted the real-life experience that our daughter had in the world of vocational ballet training. It is a toxic environment, and one that unfortunately it is so hard to see as such whilst they are in it. One of the posters on here used the term ‘groomed’ and Luke Jennings referred to its cult like qualities, and I would say neither were far from the truth.

 

During training from the years of 11-16 there was the daily belittling, humiliating, bullying, coded comments such as needing to lengthen her lines, the not so coded comments, eat less biscuits (she didn’t eat biscuits anyway). While she was in training at upper school (RBS) she suffered with eating disorders, self harm, and suicidal thoughts. She made the decision to leave as she was so desperately unhappy, and hasn’t stepped into a ballet studio since. 

Although she is out of that world now, and studying at a mainstream school, the internal wounds, as she calls them, are still there.

 

She didn’t watch the programme, but she read the article in the Times on Monday night. She called me at 11am yesterday morning from the toilet at school where she was having a panic attack. Reading it unearthed all the trauma that is still inside. 

 

So it’s easy for people to comment, parents should know or protect their kids, well female dancers need to be light enough to be lifted in PDD, whatever whatever whatever (and by the by it wasn’t just the females in her boarding house who said they felt ‘fat’ after dinner so they needed to go and throw up, the disordered eating/eating disorders/body shame/self loathing ran across both sexes). But the wounds are still there for all these ex-dancers, no matter who it feels easier to blame.

 

I don’t have any more than that really to say on the subject. 

 

When I spoke to my daughter yesterday after she had come home from school following the panic attack (she basically broke down having the trauma resurface and her school sent her home to recover), she said she still feels wrong, and damaged inside, and alone, and I thought how wonderful it would be if out of all of this something positive could happen. Something like a support group for survivors of this world, where they could talk and share their experiences and feelings and feel truly seen and understood by others who have been through this. I really don’t know how such a support group could be facilitated but if anyone has any ideas or thoughts and wants to DM me about this please feel free.

 

One thing both my partner and I thought after we watched that programme was that in fact she isn’t alone, none of them are alone, there are so many of them who have been damaged. 

[Laura_ballet]

6 minutes ago, Hadtopost said:

 

I have read the comments on this thread.

I have read the newspaper articles and watched the Panorama programme.

Not one thing that I have heard or read has contradicted the real-life experience that our daughter had in the world of vocational ballet training. It is a toxic environment, and one that unfortunately it is so hard to see as such whilst they are in it. One of the posters on here used the term ‘groomed’ and Luke Jennings referred to its cult like qualities, and I would say neither were far from the truth.

 

During training from the years of 11-16 there was the daily belittling, humiliating, bullying, coded comments such as needing to lengthen her lines, the not so coded comments, eat less biscuits (she didn’t eat biscuits anyway). While she was in training at upper school (RBS) she suffered with eating disorders, self harm, and suicidal thoughts. She made the decision to leave as she was so desperately unhappy, and hasn’t stepped into a ballet studio since. 

Although she is out of that world now, and studying at a mainstream school, the internal wounds, as she calls them, are still there.

 

She didn’t watch the programme, but she read the article in the Times on Monday night. She called me at 11am yesterday morning from the toilet at school where she was having a panic attack. Reading it unearthed all the trauma that is still inside. 

 

So it’s easy for people to comment, parents should know or protect their kids, well female dancers need to be light enough to be lifted in PDD, whatever whatever whatever (and by the by it wasn’t just the females in her boarding house who said they felt ‘fat’ after dinner so they needed to go and throw up, the disordered eating/eating disorders/body shame/self loathing ran across both sexes). But the wounds are still there for all these ex-dancers, no matter who it feels easier to blame.

 

I don’t have any more than that really to say on the subject. 

 

When I spoke to my daughter yesterday after she had come home from school following the panic attack (she basically broke down having the trauma resurface and her school sent her home to recover), she said she still feels wrong, and damaged inside, and alone, and I thought how wonderful it would be if out of all of this something positive could happen. Something like a support group for survivors of this world, where they could talk and share their experiences and feelings and feel truly seen and understood by others who have been through this. I really don’t know how such a support group could be facilitated but if anyone has any ideas or thoughts and wants to DM me about this please feel free.

 

One thing both my partner and I thought after we watched that programme was that in fact she isn’t alone, none of them are alone, there are so many of them who have been damaged. 

 One good thing that might come out of this is, less children going into vocational training at 11 sparing them the abuse/bullying/body shaming. I feel this programme has highlighted my fears for my own daughter and has seriously impacted our decision making. 

[Beezie]

@Thelittleswans  That is worth its own thread, for parents of younger students who read this and specifically ask ‘What can I do to facilitate my child’s interest but not support one of these schools?’ 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

5 minutes ago, Thelittleswans said:

 One good thing that might come out of this is, less children going into vocational training at 11 sparing them the abuse/bullying/body shaming. I feel this programme has highlighted my fears for my own daughter and has seriously impacted our decision making. 

Sadly, I very much doubt it. I’ve already witnessed the ramping up of ‘preparations’ for the next cycle of auditions - booking of expensive photo shoots, multiple physio sessions, extra privates, additional classes/associates, extra coaching etc etc. This perhaps not surprisingly coincides with applications opening for entry into 2024. Despite all the discussions on here, I very much doubt this will impact much once offers go out early next year. This year, I was actually surprised at the number of those who turned down year 7 places in one of the schools mentioned. If they didn’t manage to fill those places up with those from waitlist, I assume it will be a smaller than usual class size unless they can slowly increase the numbers with international students. 

[Beezie]

There is 1) general enrollment and 2) the decisions of parents on this forum.  I agree that general enrollment in these schools won’t be affected.  There will always be a family willing to fill the slot based on the school’s prestige.  

But to point #2….  There are parents of younger children reading this, now, and questioning their own decision-making as parents.  Hearing parents say time-and-again that they would decide differently if they knew?  That’s powerful.  It might change a single girl or boy’s experience.

 

And if these schools do start to see professional dancers ‘make it’ outside their system, they will eventually take notice.  And other parents should take notice too.

[Harwel]

I have read this whole thread with great interest, I also watched the documentary.  I am so sorry for all the hurt that accompanies ballet training, it really is the most insidious, mind twisting, toxic environment you can imagine.  Ballet is so beautiful to watch but what goes on behind closed doors is totally shocking and almost unbelievable.  
 

For the parents on here that are trying to ‘parent blame’, get the other side of the story, suggest ‘it’s just sour grapes’, please just stop talking about something you clearly do not understand.  You are not helping the literally hundreds of dancers who have been damaged by this toxic culture. You are gaslighting them - listen with open ears and hear the horror that clearly exists.  I have heard it for years - oh it won’t happen to my child, oh well mine is special, oh mine is so mentally strong, well that happened to yours because they are just not talented enough, well it can’t be that bad, I have taught my child to stand up for themselves.  
 

Well that is all hogwash if you have a child at boarding school surrounded by competitive children, divisive teaching, Unsympathetic house parents, limited parental contact, a child’s self belief wrapped up in what they are doing, a perfectionist, hard working, diligent child who is eager to please those who have power and control over them.  
 

For the couple of parents here that are saying their child is at a school where this catagorically doesn’t happen and their children are incredibly happy - well amazing, fantastic, please share which school they are at as clearly lessons can be learnt from their teaching methods.  
 

There are so many accounts of the harm done it is truly heart breaking.  Truly beautiful dancers who have been horribly bullied by teachers.  Some of these are students who have been chosen by RBS at 16 and then crushed the moment they walk through the doors. Why? The young lady who this happened to in the documentary is not the only one it’s happened to!  Surely they can not be dismissed as ‘not talented enough’, ‘wrong physique’, they’ve just been chosen by one of the world’s most prestigious schools! 
 

I have been taught (40 years ago) by 2 very well known, highly regarded teachers from Royal - worst classes I ever took - they were masters at cruel, unkind and divisive training.  And guess what, they are still teaching, still in positions of power and apparently revered!  Whenever is see their names I physically feel anger and disgust.  
 

My son knew Jack - I am so very sorry for his parents loss.  

 

[Emlojasa]

As someone who works in school compliance and inspections I have to say that it is unlikely that change will be brought about because of Ofsted inspectors reviewing complaints the school ‘provides’ them with. Firstly Ofsted ‘can only accept complaints about state schools, academies and free schools’’, the Department for Education (DfE) state that parents of children at private schools should use the school’s complaints process (let the institution being complained about, investigate themselves…a process that is stacked against the complainant), they also make it clear that ‘you cannot complain directly to a private school if you do not have a child in the school’…so when parents and young people have left the school, and may feel safe about making a complaint, they lose the ability to do so. Finally, the DfE also state that they cannot investigate individual complaints about private schools, but have certain powers as a regulator if the school is not meeting standards set by the DfE. You would think that the issues highlighted by Panorama or by previous whistleblowers, former pupils, dancers and journalists like Luke Jennings, would have been enough for the DfE to consider that those standards are not being met, but it hasn’t in the past and I don’t believe it is likely to currently. If the Liam Scarlett affair, and the young people who bravely spoke out about those issues (one of whom I know) and the devastating affect it had on them has not led to a root and branch change in the way the RBS conducts itself (and I don’t believe it has) or has resulted in the DfE feeling the school is not meeting DfE standards, then frankly very little will. These schools have powerful donors, governors and friends and often as a lone voice it is difficult, or even impossible, for one family, one young person, especially when they are at the school and chasing a dream, to speak out. 
 

As a non-dancing parent of a child ‘spotted’ by the RBS, and who largely had a positive time at the school, in hindsight would I send them there again, no I wouldn’t, not because they were subjected to the things described by former students at the school, but because I realise it is not a healthy environment for any of the children there, even for that very small number who make it through both lower and upper schools and into a career in ballet. There is fierce (unhealthy) competition for every part, February is a living hell because everyone of them is stressed about assessments, and then for some they are bullied and humiliated in front of their peers, by adults, not just the ballet staff, and the scars of those issues are deep and long lasting. If I were advising myself all those years ago, when were deciding whether or not to accept the place, this would be my advice. Do not accept a place in lower school, continue at the associate programmes and find a good local school and keep dancing with them. The body changes significantly between 11 and 16, for boys and girls, and those with the attributes at 11 may not have them at 16. The success rate at lower schools is very poor, and whilst I accept that some children may not retain the desire or the ability to continue in elite dance, of the 24 who start in Year 7 the success rate to get into upper school, (not even into companies), should be much, much higher, it certainly is in other schools such as the Paris Opera, so why isn’t it here? The academics are ok, but limited and sacrificed constantly for performances and rehearsals, this may be ok if the child continues in the dance world, but given the significant number that do not make it all the way through school let alone into a ballet company, this needs to be broader and more balanced. Finally, pastoral support, as we have seen, is dire and bringing about positive, significant change is almost impossible. Should I have allowed my child to stay there for the entirety of their school career, no probably not, do I regret that, sometimes yes and I say that as the parent of a child who didn’t have the issues seen on Panorama, but who witnessed other children experiencing those things. Would I have listened, who knows!

 

Finally, to the young people and families who have spoken out publicly, I have the utmost admiration for you. 

 

[Betty]

8 hours ago, Jeteitallaway said:

There was extreme favouritism in the  year group . The children are treated so differently from one another and it causes resentment, low self esteem  in those who are not in favour and egotistical behaviour from those who are .From what I’ve seen and heard  it is even worse further up the school.

Thankyou for explaining this - I can see now how self doubt, depression, self loathing and eating disorders would grow in such an environment. It sounds like a truly nightmarish place to find yourself trapped in at such a young age and away from family. Having been sent off with such a fanfare from your ballet school etc and at such expense. Knowing of some of the young dancers (from other dance projects) skipping joyfully off to White Lodge Yr 7 just now, I am truly fearful for their emotional safety.

 

As for us, we are on the outskirts of the ballet world, dipping our toes into an associate programme this year but with masses of monitoring. However, seeing how insidious it is (favouritism is so subjective an experience to be in the room with), I am pretty frightened to have my child, who has talent but who does not ultimately have the perfect ballet look, anywhere near ballet at the moment.

 

Thankyou to all those who have generously shared these awful experiences for us coming along behind to learn from.

[Harwel]

57 minutes ago, Hadtopost said:

 

I have read the comments on this thread.

I have read the newspaper articles and watched the Panorama programme.

Not one thing that I have heard or read has contradicted the real-life experience that our daughter had in the world of vocational ballet training. It is a toxic environment, and one that unfortunately it is so hard to see as such whilst they are in it. One of the posters on here used the term ‘groomed’ and Luke Jennings referred to its cult like qualities, and I would say neither were far from the truth.

 

During training from the years of 11-16 there was the daily belittling, humiliating, bullying, coded comments such as needing to lengthen her lines, the not so coded comments, eat less biscuits (she didn’t eat biscuits anyway). While she was in training at upper school (RBS) she suffered with eating disorders, self harm, and suicidal thoughts. She made the decision to leave as she was so desperately unhappy, and hasn’t stepped into a ballet studio since. 

Although she is out of that world now, and studying at a mainstream school, the internal wounds, as she calls them, are still there.

 

She didn’t watch the programme, but she read the article in the Times on Monday night. She called me at 11am yesterday morning from the toilet at school where she was having a panic attack. Reading it unearthed all the trauma that is still inside. 

 

So it’s easy for people to comment, parents should know or protect their kids, well female dancers need to be light enough to be lifted in PDD, whatever whatever whatever (and by the by it wasn’t just the females in her boarding house who said they felt ‘fat’ after dinner so they needed to go and throw up, the disordered eating/eating disorders/body shame/self loathing ran across both sexes). But the wounds are still there for all these ex-dancers, no matter who it feels easier to blame.

 

I don’t have any more than that really to say on the subject. 

 

When I spoke to my daughter yesterday after she had come home from school following the panic attack (she basically broke down having the trauma resurface and her school sent her home to recover), she said she still feels wrong, and damaged inside, and alone, and I thought how wonderful it would be if out of all of this something positive could happen. Something like a support group for survivors of this world, where they could talk and share their experiences and feelings and feel truly seen and understood by others who have been through this. I really don’t know how such a support group could be facilitated but if anyone has any ideas or thoughts and wants to DM me about this please feel free.

 

One thing both my partner and I thought after we watched that programme was that in fact she isn’t alone, none of them are alone, there are so many of them who have been damaged. 

I am so sorry your daughter suffered in this way.  I have a son who told us he thought he was ‘broken’ when at ballet school. It was heartbreaking to watch the pain in such a gifted, beautiful boy! 
he is now very happily in a different career and thriving but we often talk about both of our experiences from our professional ballet training - nothing much changed in 40 years!  
 

I wish your daughter all the best in her new adventure and the further away from the trauma she gets the easier it will become, but be prepared for it to raise its ugly head at the most odd times and with certain triggers.  I still get triggered in certain situations and I’m 56! 

[Anon2]

10 hours ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

I am sorry to hear that. If they are a registered nurse then they are accountable to the NMC. 

My child left the school a number of years ago, at some point I searched the nursing staff on the NMC register because I had concerns. I couldn’t find some of the team that were at the time listed as qualified nurses, it may be they were registered under maiden names and had never updated? It was at a time when we were dealing with a lot of bullying in house and wasn’t something I had the energy to pursue. 

[Anon2]

22 minutes ago, Harwel said:

I have read this whole thread with great interest, I also watched the documentary.  I am so sorry for all the hurt that accompanies ballet training, it really is the most insidious, mind twisting, toxic environment you can imagine.  Ballet is so beautiful to watch but what goes on behind closed doors is totally shocking and almost unbelievable.  
 

For the parents on here that are trying to ‘parent blame’, get the other side of the story, suggest ‘it’s just sour grapes’, please just stop talking about something you clearly do not understand.  You are not helping the literally hundreds of dancers who have been damaged by this toxic culture. You are gaslighting them - listen with open ears and hear the horror that clearly exists.  I have heard it for years - oh it won’t happen to my child, oh well mine is special, oh mine is so mentally strong, well that happened to yours because they are just not talented enough, well it can’t be that bad, I have taught my child to stand up for themselves.  
 

Well that is all hogwash if you have a child at boarding school surrounded by competitive children, divisive teaching, Unsympathetic house parents, limited parental contact, a child’s self belief wrapped up in what they are doing, a perfectionist, hard working, diligent child who is eager to please those who have power and control over them.  
 

For the couple of parents here that are saying their child is at a school where this catagorically doesn’t happen and their children are incredibly happy - well amazing, fantastic, please share which school they are at as clearly lessons can be learnt from their teaching methods.  
 

There are so many accounts of the harm done it is truly heart breaking.  Truly beautiful dancers who have been horribly bullied by teachers.  Some of these are students who have been chosen by RBS at 16 and then crushed the moment they walk through the doors. Why? The young lady who this happened to in the documentary is not the only one it’s happened to!  Surely they can not be dismissed as ‘not talented enough’, ‘wrong physique’, they’ve just been chosen by one of the world’s most prestigious schools! 
 

I have been taught (40 years ago) by 2 very well known, highly regarded teachers from Royal - worst classes I ever took - they were masters at cruel, unkind and divisive training.  And guess what, they are still teaching, still in positions of power and apparently revered!  Whenever is see their names I physically feel anger and disgust.  
 

My son knew Jack - I am so very sorry for his parents loss.  

 

I was very sceptical of the ‘expert’ that spoke on the program about training methods changing. I can’t remember her exact words but how does she know things are changing? What is she measuring this on? Who is telling her? 
So interesting to hear you say the same teachers that were toxic 40 years ago are still out their teaching. 

[Anon2]

1 hour ago, Hadtopost said:

 

I have read the comments on this thread.

I have read the newspaper articles and watched the Panorama programme.

Not one thing that I have heard or read has contradicted the real-life experience that our daughter had in the world of vocational ballet training. It is a toxic environment, and one that unfortunately it is so hard to see as such whilst they are in it. One of the posters on here used the term ‘groomed’ and Luke Jennings referred to its cult like qualities, and I would say neither were far from the truth.

 

During training from the years of 11-16 there was the daily belittling, humiliating, bullying, coded comments such as needing to lengthen her lines, the not so coded comments, eat less biscuits (she didn’t eat biscuits anyway). While she was in training at upper school (RBS) she suffered with eating disorders, self harm, and suicidal thoughts. She made the decision to leave as she was so desperately unhappy, and hasn’t stepped into a ballet studio since. 

Although she is out of that world now, and studying at a mainstream school, the internal wounds, as she calls them, are still there.

 

She didn’t watch the programme, but she read the article in the Times on Monday night. She called me at 11am yesterday morning from the toilet at school where she was having a panic attack. Reading it unearthed all the trauma that is still inside. 

 

So it’s easy for people to comment, parents should know or protect their kids, well female dancers need to be light enough to be lifted in PDD, whatever whatever whatever (and by the by it wasn’t just the females in her boarding house who said they felt ‘fat’ after dinner so they needed to go and throw up, the disordered eating/eating disorders/body shame/self loathing ran across both sexes). But the wounds are still there for all these ex-dancers, no matter who it feels easier to blame.

 

I don’t have any more than that really to say on the subject. 

 

When I spoke to my daughter yesterday after she had come home from school following the panic attack (she basically broke down having the trauma resurface and her school sent her home to recover), she said she still feels wrong, and damaged inside, and alone, and I thought how wonderful it would be if out of all of this something positive could happen. Something like a support group for survivors of this world, where they could talk and share their experiences and feelings and feel truly seen and understood by others who have been through this. I really don’t know how such a support group could be facilitated but if anyone has any ideas or thoughts and wants to DM me about this please feel free.

 

One thing both my partner and I thought after we watched that programme was that in fact she isn’t alone, none of them are alone, there are so many of them who have been damaged. 

Six years on the program and discussion among peers was very triggering for my daughter so I can’t imagine how difficult it was for yours who sounds like she is recently out of the system. 
I know my daughter follows the IG accounts that have been mentioned further up the thread. She finds it difficult to keep in touch with most of her cohort as wants to put that life behind her. 

 

[Angela Essex]

1 hour ago, Hadtopost said:

 

I have read the comments on this thread.

I have read the newspaper articles and watched the Panorama programme.

Not one thing that I have heard or read has contradicted the real-life experience that our daughter had in the world of vocational ballet training. It is a toxic environment, and one that unfortunately it is so hard to see as such whilst they are in it. One of the posters on here used the term ‘groomed’ and Luke Jennings referred to its cult like qualities, and I would say neither were far from the truth.

 

During training from the years of 11-16 there was the daily belittling, humiliating, bullying, coded comments such as needing to lengthen her lines, the not so coded comments, eat less biscuits (she didn’t eat biscuits anyway). While she was in training at upper school (RBS) she suffered with eating disorders, self harm, and suicidal thoughts. She made the decision to leave as she was so desperately unhappy, and hasn’t stepped into a ballet studio since. 

Although she is out of that world now, and studying at a mainstream school, the internal wounds, as she calls them, are still there.

 

She didn’t watch the programme, but she read the article in the Times on Monday night. She called me at 11am yesterday morning from the toilet at school where she was having a panic attack. Reading it unearthed all the trauma that is still inside. 

 

So it’s easy for people to comment, parents should know or protect their kids, well female dancers need to be light enough to be lifted in PDD, whatever whatever whatever (and by the by it wasn’t just the females in her boarding house who said they felt ‘fat’ after dinner so they needed to go and throw up, the disordered eating/eating disorders/body shame/self loathing ran across both sexes). But the wounds are still there for all these ex-dancers, no matter who it feels easier to blame.

 

I don’t have any more than that really to say on the subject. 

 

When I spoke to my daughter yesterday after she had come home from school following the panic attack (she basically broke down having the trauma resurface and her school sent her home to recover), she said she still feels wrong, and damaged inside, and alone, and I thought how wonderful it would be if out of all of this something positive could happen. Something like a support group for survivors of this world, where they could talk and share their experiences and feelings and feel truly seen and understood by others who have been through this. I really don’t know how such a support group could be facilitated but if anyone has any ideas or thoughts and wants to DM me about this please feel free.

 

One thing both my partner and I thought after we watched that programme was that in fact she isn’t alone, none of them are alone, there are so many of them who have been damaged. 

I am so sorry for what your daughter and your family went through. As a mother of teens/tweens myself I find this whole behaviour on the part of the schools involved utterly wrong. I hope they publicly own what has gone on and seek to change their ways instead of making BS statements about how the well-being of their students is paramount etc. 

[Janeparent]

1 hour ago, Beezie said:

There is 1) general enrollment and 2) the decisions of parents on this forum.  I agree that general enrollment in these schools won’t be affected.  There will always be a family willing to fill the slot based on the school’s prestige.  

But to point #2….  There are parents of younger children reading this, now, and questioning their own decision-making as parents.  Hearing parents say time-and-again that they would decide differently if they knew?  That’s powerful.  It might change a single girl or boy’s experience.

 

And if these schools do start to see professional dancers ‘make it’ outside their system, they will eventually take notice.  And other parents should take notice too.

For any parents of younger children making this decision, our personal (recent) experience was this: our daughter started at Elmhurst in year 7, was desperately unhappy and left halfway through year 8. While the academic staff were kind, her ballet teacher was not: in that short space of time she lost all of her belief in her ability and all of her joy in dance. She was broken and now recoils at the very mention of ballet. Having spent her younger childhood loving ballet and being devoted to it, and showing a large amount of talent and potential, she will now never dance again. The pastoral care she received at the school was laughable: we moved house so that she could be a day student, but the “pastoral” staff are in reality simply the boarding staff, who consider day students to be an inconvenience. She was lonely and neglected. We had many meetings with senior management, at which assurances were made, but nothing substantially changed. I wish with all my heart that we had never sent her there.

[Anon2]

32 minutes ago, Janeparent said:

For any parents of younger children making this decision, our personal (recent) experience was this: our daughter started at Elmhurst in year 7, was desperately unhappy and left halfway through year 8. While the academic staff were kind, her ballet teacher was not: in that short space of time she lost all of her belief in her ability and all of her joy in dance. She was broken and now recoils at the very mention of ballet. Having spent her younger childhood loving ballet and being devoted to it, and showing a large amount of talent and potential, she will now never dance again. The pastoral care she received at the school was laughable: we moved house so that she could be a day student, but the “pastoral” staff are in reality simply the boarding staff, who consider day students to be an inconvenience. She was lonely and neglected. We had many meetings with senior management, at which assurances were made, but nothing substantially changed. I wish with all my heart that we had never sent her there.

Your last sentence I’m sure is how the majority of us feel. 
 

I had numerous meetings with senior management and pastoral team over the years. They’re all good at the fluff but not actioning what they promise. One conversation that I have just remembered with a houseparent was ‘all the children are unhappy in one way or another, X just shows it by being quiet and Y shows it by being bolshy and loud’  I had no response at the time because was flabbergasted. 

[LinMM]

I wasn’t going to comment here again as I now feel this thread should be for parents who have or have had children at vocational schools. 
However it is heart breaking to read that children who really loved to dance are now choosing never to dance again and can get triggered by the very mention of the word ballet. 

There can be so much joy in dancing. 
 

I do hope that for some of these children time can be a healer and even though a career in Dance (as a performer)  may no longer be happening that at some point in the future even if some way off they may be able to pick up their joy again in dancing. 
There are some lovely teachers of adult ballet out there. 
One of my favourite teachers went to RBS as a student and graduated from the school but I know didn’t have a particularly happy or positive experience whilst there but she has re found herself and her joy in dance as it were and is now a truly wonderful positive life affirming teacher. 
 

[Jewel]

I hope that my child has not lost their love of dance although it was a close call.  They are currently working as a performer/children's entertainer in a hotel and when their current contract ends will be performing in a schools/community venue panto tour.  The kind of contract that these schools probably look down on, but as my child says.  For some children, seeing them perform a panto at their school is the first encounter they have with theatre and it gives them immense satisfaction.

[LinMM]

Quite right Jewel!!! I first wanted to have ballet lessons after seeing a panto at Richmond Theatre which an Auntie took me to several years running. 
I think it was some sort of fairy glade scene and I thought I want to do that!! (The least likely fairy I might add!) 

[Velvet]

There is more on R4 if you can stomach it (link below). Some more ex students interviewed and some very insightful words from Luke Jennings and various medical/psychology people involved with students. 
 

From my perspective I recognise everything that has been said as absolutely the case! The JA years were fine but full time training at RBS for 8 years was excruciating. Not the “body shaming” issue for us but my dc was surrounded by that going on.  I have a list as long as my arm of phrases, comments slung at students to publicly shame them over their body shape and trust me they are eye wateringly cruel. But also over technique, facility, demeanour in class and on and on. The entire 8 years were spent mopping up fellow Mums traumas over the latest thing that was said or done to their child. Our particular type of difficulty was certain teachers hating my DC’s “wilful personality” with daily humiliation. Stopping class to publicly wipe the floor with them. For us the love of dancing won the day and we now enjoy watching our dc happily flourish in a Company. But I know we are in the minority and I completely understand why any other family would want to run as fast as they can in the opposite direction. The undercurrent is toxic and insidious and I don’t see how that can change in order to keep the standard they aim for. I doubt it’s any different in gymnastics, athletics, swimming etc. As we know they also have mental health issues and harsh training regimes coming out their ears. In some sports coaches use the word “beasting” to describe their rigorous training methods. That about sums it up for me! 
 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

[Peanut68]

As an ex Elm from the 1980’s era a while back I thought it’d be interesting to see if there weee any ex alumni groups out there….found one on Facebook with a photo including recognised dancers  of my year group (clearly the mid 80’s in shiny catsuits & ankle warmers!!) 

The make of the group?

The Elmhurst Survivors….!!

says it all….

And I thought everyone but me was having a great experience there!! 

[Peanut68]

2 hours ago, Anon2 said:

My child left the school a number of years ago, at some point I searched the nursing staff on the NMC register because I had concerns. I couldn’t find some of the team that were at the time listed as qualified nurses, it may be they were registered under maiden names and had never updated? It was at a time when we were dealing with a lot of bullying in house and wasn’t something I had the energy to pursue. 

I too have often wondered at the qualifications/regulatory bodies that so called school nurses belong to…. My suspicion is that independent  schools can quite likely employ anyone in the capacity of school nurse much as they can employ anyone as a teacher. No qualifications are legally needed though of course one expects that they would necessarily have them & that schools would only employ suitably qualified/registered staff in any capacity. I certainly found at one school a great many nurses seem to be from overseas…. Do the qualifications match up I wonder? Would there be any redress/oversight available from UK nursing bodies for these staff? I’m told someone is a nurse & I believe that’s what they are…. Based on my child’s experiences I seriously question the suitability of sone of these staff & time again I think I would’ve asked a few more questions of the school on the suitability if these people in role. They wield much power (eg. could sign you off dance) & act under a veil of ‘student confidentiality’ (well - when it suits them…) & actually I felt there were sone slightly on a power trip to create drama/add to their own self importance/ ruin kids lives… It felt gossipy, totally inappropriate, no real ‘nurse’ care & no accountability save to the senior leadership team…. And therein lies ever more questionable behaviours & practises…. 

[alison]

Of course, a great many nurses in the NHS come from overseas as well (I should know, as my parents were "befrienders" to some of them in the 1970s, and I exchange Christmas cards with one of them to this day!).  I would assume that any differences in training should be compensated for initially, unless going into "private" practice means that can be avoided.

[alison]

22 hours ago, Sim said:

From today's Links (thank you Ian), a description of the current care being taken at the RBS around nutrition and pastoral care:

 

https://londonlovesbusiness.com/how-the-royal-ballet-school-supports-student-with-its-healthy-dancer-programme/

 

Which for all I know could be a (largely?) cut-and-paste job from a press release, BTW.

[capybara]

I have just found this article in today's LINKS and was about to post it here until I realised that that had already been done.

I am sure that is has been 'placed' by the RBS, and one can't blame them for that. But, in my view, it is worth a read because the intentions appear to be along the lines that people want them to be (apart, perhaps, from the subdivision within the the Lower School). The challenge lies in ensuring that they are implemented in the student-focused way described.

 

https://www.europeanbusinessreview.com/40-ways-the-royal-ballet-school-has-enhanced-student-experience-over-the-past-decade/

[Peanut68]

41 minutes ago, alison said:

Of course, a great many nurses in the NHS come from overseas as well (I should know, as my parents were "befrienders" to some of them in the 1970s, and I exchange Christmas cards with one of them to this day!).  I would assume that any differences in training should be compensated for initially, unless going into "private" practice means that can be avoided.

Just that…. I suspect the ‘private practise’ that private schools would fall into gifts a ‘get out of jail free’ card as it were….

[bridiem]

23 minutes ago, capybara said:

I have just found this article in today's LINKS and was about to post it here until I realised that that had already been done.

I am sure that is has been 'placed' by the RBS, and one can't blame them for that. But, in my view, it is worth a read because the intentions appear to be along the lines that people want them to be (apart, perhaps, from the subdivision within the the Lower School). The challenge lies in ensuring that they are implemented in the student-focused way described.

 

https://www.europeanbusinessreview.com/40-ways-the-royal-ballet-school-has-enhanced-student-experience-over-the-past-decade/

 

I simply don't understand how this article and the experiences described in this thread, some of which are quite recent, are in any way reconcilable.

[Lindsay]

11 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

I simply don't understand how this article and the experiences described in this thread, some of which are quite recent, are in any way reconcilable.

I think (as discussed already in this thread) there is often a difference between "what we say" and "what we actually do in practice"....

[Pups_mum]

1 hour ago, Velvet said:

doubt it’s any different in gymnastics, athletics, swimming etc. As we know they also have mental health issues and harsh training regimes coming out their ears. In some sports coaches use the word “beasting” to describe their rigorous training methods. That about sums it up for me! 

There are, without doubt, similarities in sport, though in my personal experience, I do believe the 2 sports that I am involved in are now taking Safeguarding and the welfare of young people far more seriously than in the past. And it is a difficult line to walk because any young athlete/musician/artist etc does have to be committed and work very hard and you can't get away from that. But i do believe there are ways to achieve that without inflicting  the type of damage we're talking about here. 

But I think there are 2 things that set dance apart that make it a particularly toxic environment, even more so than sport.

1) Regulation. Or rather lack of. Sports all have a national regulatory body with, in my experience at least, increasing openness and accountability. My son has been playing his sport at a fairly high level this year and the process for selection for the programme is on is dowloadable from the national body website, along with clear information about what will be expected of him, and us, and what we can expect from them. Plus links to their Safeguarding and complaints policies, instructions of what to do if you're worried or unhappy and so on. Now I haven't had to test what would happen if I did complain and I guess it's possibly all just for show, but I don't get that feeling, and at least their is a clearly defined process and someone overseeing standards etc. Of course there will still be bad people in any organisation and unsuitable coaches etc, but it feels very different to the dance world where there is basically no accountability, no effective means of independent review or whistleblowing and everything is shrouded in secrecy.

2) Boarding. Very little elite junior sports training happens in a residential setting, at least until post 16 or post 18, but it's the default setting in ballet. There is mountains of evidence of the potential harm that "normal" boarding schools can cause children, particularly at a young age. So here we have the double whammy of the downsides of boarding plus the downsides of elite training and I suspect the harm is even more than the sum of the parts. 

I read an interesting article some years ago - I can't remember where unfortunately- on the general topic of well being in teenagers. It basically said that the typical young person's life has 3 main "domains" - home, school and hobbies. The author believed that if relationships were good and the young person was happy in all 3 domains obviously that is best, but if one is difficult they can still thrive if there is support in the other 2 eg a child being bullied at school is less likely to be adversely affected in the long term if they have a happy home life and supportive friends and adults in say a sports team or youth club. But the poorer the quality of support in the other 2, the greater harm the toxic domain can do. That makes a certain amount of sense to me, and goes some way to explaining just why residential training can  be so damaging. For big chunks of the year all 3 domains are the same place and there is no escape. With the exception of music schools, which of course have also come in for criticism, I can't think of any circumstances in this country where this happens to this degree. 

I'm not sure what the answer is to be honest, but the older I get the more convinced I am that full time residential training from 11 is harmful to most children. 

[Farawaydancer]

16 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

I simply don't understand how this article and the experiences described in this thread, some of which are quite recent, are in any way reconcilable.

Because none of it is changing what happens in the room with the teacher. I sit in lessons in mainstream schools on a daily basis and regularly see teachers who just don’t think the policies of the school apply to them. If I see anything inappropriate I report it to senior management before I leave the school, and on some occasions I’ve left the classroom immediately to find someone to deal with it. I’d love to know whether any other adults ‘in the room’ in ballet classes ever do the same, I’m thinking of the pianists in particular, who could support the students’ accounts of what is happening.