Royal Ballet - The Cellist, Dances at a Gathering

[LinMM]

I was going to write a review of last nights performance but have just heard that a much loved and inspirational teacher Roger Tully has just died. He was 92 and was still teaching in London just a few weeks ago. His passion for ballet has influenced me since 1974. 
I will write maybe tomorrow as I think it will set me off trying to write about the beauty of these performances right now. 

 

[Springbourne3]

2 hours ago, J_New said:

I can't claim to be any kind of expert, but to me 'The Cellist' was lacking in actual dancing. Sorry!! I have only seen it once, and that was last night in the cinema so I may have got the wrong impression, but there seemed to be a lot of lifting and 'flailing' and less what I would describe as dancing. That maybe unfair, and maybe it was just the contrast with DAAG, but I didn't find it very moving for that reason. To me the lifting was distracting, though it could have been the angle of the camera which at times was just too close. I probably need to see it again in the theatre, and I might find it more engaging if I can see the whole stage all the time. I found Sambe's performance outstanding, though - at times I really did believe he was a cello!!

DAAG was sublime - I could have watched it again and again all the evening.

J_New I entirely agree with your comments regarding ‘The Cellist’ regarding the lack of dance.  To me, there was just ‘arm waving’ and gyration going on and Matthew Ball seemed to do nothing but that!  M Sambé was the ‘stand out’ dancer in what was otherwise was a bit of a waste of the talents of the outstanding dancers of the Royal Ballet.  The stage seemed very dark throughout too. 

The disappointment of the ‘Cellist’ may, of course, been slightly exacerbated by the fact that ‘Dances at a Gathering’ was performed first - showing the beauty and sheer brilliance of the higher rank Royal Ballet dancers - I’ve not really been a great fan of Francesca Hayward, but she was the ‘stand out’ dancer in this ballet, outshining everyone else with her grace and ease of movement.  I also thought of the men, William Bracewell was outstanding.

It was slightly irritating that D Bussell kept calling the ‘Cellist’ the ‘Celloist’ too during the pre-performance introductions!

[Richard LH]

Seeing  "The Cellist" at the cinema I am afraid I was more disappointed with it than when I saw it live. On second viewing, elements of the narrative approach, with its linear timeline, are now striking  me as rather  laboured  and unsubtle.  I also noticed  a lot more of the new Philip Feeney music than before, and I found it rather uninspiring - not helped by being played overly loud in our cinema. I think the ballet is suffering from having  too many elements, as we are taken through du Pré's  life as  a continuous flow, with no breaks to pause and reflect, or indeed applaud particular  passages of dance. I think this aspect of Marston's choreography is what also put me off her "Victoria".  I agree with reviewers who have described the approach as too literal. I would have preferred  fewer, and more distinct, passages, with the dancing combined just with  the music that  du  Pré played , allowing  space for the dancing and music  to evoke aspects  of her playing  and character, without trying  to tell  a story of her whole musical life in 65 minutes. And I do also agree with the comments about  the ungainly aspects of some of the movements, and relatively lack of what might be usually regarded as "ballet" dancing. 

 

Turning to the positive, for some reason "Dances at a Gathering"  seemed even more glorious last night at the cinema than when I  first saw it last week.  William Bracewell and Alexander Campbell  stood out for me in particular  - clearly BRB's loss is the RB's gain. William is having a great season and I would hope that he is now a strong candidate for promotion to Principal. But all 10 dancers were brilliant  and it was  so good to see them dancing together in a piece that allows so much mutual good humour and respect, as well as skill, to be displayed. For a work that is supposed (according to its creator) to have no plots and no roles, this work, for me, is full of little  potential stories and characters that  a fertile mind might imagine. And  so much emotion! The fact that  ballet can create so much out of  "nothing"  (no defined story, no real set, no props, and just a simple music  accompaniment) is perhaps a useful learning point for today's choreographers. 

[alison]

2 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

it did overrun by some 10mins, but even so, if they cut off the feed before the end, write and complain. They may give you a refund, or at least a voucher to go again sometime. The last few minutes are so moving, it would be worth trying to get a voucher to go see the encore showing

 

This seems like a very good idea.  I did it a few years back after we had severe problems with the transmission of the "The Dream" mixed bill.  (Unfortunately, similar problems occurred with the encore showing as well, but at least I'd got in free the second time!).  I must say, that practice is totally appalling, and I think would merit a letter of complaint to head office.  Remind me never to choose a multiplex ...

[Margaret]

2 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

That happened to me at my local when I saw Osipova/Acosta Giselle. I wrote and complained and even though it was merely the last 1-2mins they refunded me with a voucher. Its something to do with the time they are told it will last, that they set it automatically and the projectionist just zips off to anothe screen and doesn't watch what is happening. The 'joy' of multiplexes!

 

They did give us all vouchers to use for another screening (or any other event), but it did not make up for us missing the ending of The Cellist, which I imagine was very moving.

[AnneL]

4 hours ago, Julie 2 Milner said:

I came on here after watching the live screening last night expecting nothing but universal praise and "wow" for "The Cellist". I had not read any reviews so I'm rather surprised at the large amount of negativity. I loved it. Unfortunately Tunbridge Wells also lost the last few minutes which was actually gut wrenching. I'm usually fairly sanguine when these things happen but not this time which I think shows how much it had swept me up. I do love this style of dance and for me, I simply thought it amazing and so incredibly moving. I even looked up to see if there were still tickets as I cannot go to the recorded screening. I did think though some might not enjoy the style.

Re "Gatherings" yes it was great. Lovely to see some of the most senior members of the Company together. It is a pure celebration of dance. However, and there is one, I think it is around 10 mins too long. I thought this must just be me but in the interval heard a lot of others saying the same.

Back to "The Cellist" and a complete segue, the group seating next to me obviously knew Hetty Snell. Very lovely listening to their excited comments.

The mixed reactions, I guess,  really do show "one man's meat" etc and that can only be good for any artistic endeavour.

Sorry to hear you missed the end! Just down the road in Maidstone we had the whole thing. I have been to several of the screenings there now, and there have never been any problems, I am glad to say. it must be very annoying when it is cut off. 
 

[maryrosesatonapin]

3 hours ago, LinMM said:

I was going to write a review of last nights performance but have just heard that a much loved and inspirational teacher Roger Tully has just died. He was 92 and was still teaching in London just a few weeks ago. His passion for ballet has influenced me since 1974. 
I will write maybe tomorrow as I think it will set me off trying to write about the beauty of these performances right now. 

 

@LinMM - I am so sorry about your sadness.  But what a wonderful and valuable life Roger Tully lead!  What you need now is an uplifting, not-at-all-tragic ballet outing.  Cyber hugs to you.

[JohnS]

Good to see the ROH has some clips of last night’s relay.

 

 

Hoping to see Sunday’s encore as too icy/snowy last night.

 

 

[JennyTaylor]

I went to the cinema last night and really enjoyed seeing both ballets again. I found I saw many things I had missed first time round.  I love DAAG and the joy of seeing so many wonderful dancers on the stage at one time still makes me feel happy. I do love the close up viewing you are given at the cinema, so many close ups of the dancers faces.  Hard to pick out individuals ...but I will. Will Bracewell was stand out for me, Marianela of course, Alex Campbell and the wonderful Laura Morera.  Such pure dancing throughout..

 

I also found a lot more emotion in the Cellist 2nd time round and I think the cinema production helped as if focussed on the principals and the storyline very clearly.  Watching first time, I found I was confused by so much action going on all round the stage and wasn't sure what quite to focus upon. I will repeat that I think Marcelino Sambé gave the most phenomenal performance: one of the best I have ever seen by any dancer.  One, does of course have to give credit to Cathy Marston for this in terms of her choreography and ideas.

 

I'm so curious that the Cellist seems to have been given rave reviews in the press but not so rave on this forum. Discuss!  I'm not in the rave category, but am delighted that I found so much more in it last night. I don't go to the ballet to be disappointed.

 

As I am writing this, I am watching the original cellist and conductor play the Elgar cello conductor via You Tube. Not sure the rendition will ever be bettered. I remember watching it as a child and the fuss there was at the time.   

[bridiem]

38 minutes ago, JennyTaylor said:

I'm so curious that the Cellist seems to have been given rave reviews in the press but not so rave on this forum. Discuss! 

 

I don't think all the press reviews been raves, in fact. A lot of positivity, yes, but also some reservations/criticisms (and one stinker, as discussed above). And I think the response on this forum has ranged quite widely too.

[ninamargaret]

I rather enjoyed the clip shown above and I think this,was because there were no distractions to watch. I think I got so irritated by people walking around clutching cello cases, music stands, records etc that I didn't focus as much as I should on the main characters. A case of less is more, perhaps?

[Mary]

5 hours ago, Richard LH said:

And  so much emotion! The fact that  ballet can create so much out of  "nothing"  (no defined story, no real set, no props, and just a simple music  accompaniment) is perhaps a useful learning point for today's choreographers. 

100% agree Richard- you have said it exactly!

[MrsBBB]

6 hours ago, Springbourne3 said:

- I’ve not really been a great fan of Francesca Hayward, but she was the ‘stand out’ dancer in this ballet, outshining everyone else with her grace and ease of movement.  I also thought of the men, William Bracewell was outstanding.

I was at ROH last night and completely agree with @Springbourne3, Hayward and Bracewell were simply magical in DaaG. I hope to see much more of this partnership, in particular R&J and Giselle 😍

[li tai po]

The Cellist suffers from following one of the great ballet masterpieces of the 20th century.  Dances at a Gathering stretches its performers with its constantly changing atmosphere; it is strong on relationships and has some very inventive choreography.  Had The Cellist preceded another new work, it might have stood up better.

 

For the record, here is a note of who danced what

 

Marianela Nunez (pink)

Francesca Hayward (mauve)

Yasmine Naghdi (apricot)

Laura Morera (green)

Fumi Kaneko (blue)

Alexander Campbell (brown)

Federico Bonelli (purple)

William Bracewell (green)

Luca Acri (brick)

Valentino Zucchetti (blue)

 

1.  Mazurka Op. 63 No. 3  -  Alexander Campbell

2.  Waltz Op 69 No. 2  -  Francesca Hayward, William Bracewell

3.  Mazurka Op 33 No 3  -  Marianela Nunez, Federico Bonelli

4.  Mazurka Op 6 No 4  -  Yasmine Naghdi

5.  Mazurka Op 7 No 5  -  Federico Bonelli

6.  Mazurka Op 7 No 4  -  Fumi Kaneko, Marianela Nunez, Alexander Campbell

7.  Mazurka Op 24 No 2  -  Fumi Kaneko, Marianela Nunez, Federico Bonelli, William Bracewell, Valentino Zucchetti

8.  Mazurka Op 6 No 2  -  Fumi Kaneko, Marianela Nunez, Francesca Hayward, Federico Bonelli, William Bracewell, Valentino Zucchetti

9.  Waltz Op 42  -  Yasmine Naghdi, Luca Acri

10.  Waltz Op 34 No 2  -  Fumi Kaneko, Marianela Nunez, Francesca Hayward, William Bracewell

11.  Mazurka Op 56 No 2  -  Federico Bonelli, Alexander Campbell

12.  Etude Op 25 No 4  -  Laura Morera

13.  Waltz Op 34 No 1  -  Fumi Kaneko, Yasmine Naghdi, Francesca Hayward, Federico Bonelli, William Bracewell, Valentino Zucchetti

14.  Etude Op 25 No 5  -  Marianela Nunez, Alexander Campbell

15.  Waltz Op 70 No 2  -  Laura Morera, Luca Acri, Federico Bonelli, William Bracewell

16.  Etude Op 10 No 2  -  Alexander Campbell

17.  Scherzo Op 20 No 1  -  Francesca Hayward; Yasmine Naghdi, William Bracewell, Valentino Zucchetti; Marianela Nunez, Federico Bonelli

18.  Nocturne Op 15 No 1  -  Ensemble

[Ian Macmillan]

I disagree. 

[li tai po]

Dances at a Gathering was created on New York City Ballet in 1969, but it soon crossed the pond, with the Royal Ballet's first performance on 19 October 1970.  This was the opening performance of the new season, which was a difficult time for the Royal Ballet.  Frederick Ashton has been forced to retire as director in the summer and Kenneth MacMillan was the incoming director, with the difficult task of replacing Fred.  The touring company had been dissolved and merged into the main company.  The ballet was first presented in a double bill preceding Ashton's The Creatures if Prometheus, marking the 200th anniversary of Beethoven's birth and performed by dancers of the newly disbanded touring company.  There was an edge in the company that autumn.

 

It is almost deja vu, because Dances at a Gathering eclipsed The Creatures of Prometheus, which soon disappeared from the repertoire.

 

DAAG clocked up about 70 performances in just six seasons, including performances on tour to New York and the London Coliseum.  It was last seen in 1976.

 

I did not think I would ever see the ballet again, but it returned for a further 13 performances in 2008 and 2009.  Now it was presented in a rather different version, the so-called "American text" mounted under the auspices of the Jerome Robbins Rights Trust.

 

The "original cast" made such an impact, with Antoinette Sibley, Laura Connor, Ann Jenner, Monica Mason, Lynn Seymour, Rudolf Nureyev, Anthony Dowell, David Wall, Michael Coleman and Jonathan Kelly.

 

Broadly speaking, they are followed (in the same order) by Marianela Nunez, Francesca Hayward, Fumi Kaneko, Yasmine Naghdi, Laura Morera, Alexander Campbell, Federico Bonelli, William Bracewell, Luca Acri and Valentino Zucchetti.

 

So how does the "American text" we see today differ from the original version mounted and rehearsed by Jerome Robbins in 1970?

 

The flexibility about which dancers appeared in which movement has gone and all the entrances and exits are fixed to the ten individual colours.  Three of the boys' colours have changed - salmon to brick, gold to purple and mauve to blue.  The costumes, although still credited to Joe Eula, have been simplified with decorative elements such as pleats and tassels reduced or eliminated.  The running order of movements 14 and 15 has been reversed.  The waltz scene for the green girl neglected by three boys walking past originally preceded the grand etude pas de deux, now danced by Marianela Nunez and Alex Campbell.

 

Zoe Anderson has written an informative note in the programme, even though she is too young to have seen any of the "original" performances.  She writes:

 

The dances have an improvisatory quality.  Insisting on community, Robbins was consciously reacting against 1960s ideas of alienation.  Anthony Dowell remembers, "Almost until the end of rehearsals, nobody knew exactly which pieces they would be dancing in performance.  Four or five principals learn everything and then Robbins finally allots the roles".  

 

That is how the Royal Ballet presented DAAG in the 1970s.  As a member of the audience, one could never be sure who would dance the next movement - it changed from performance to performance.  The programme listed the ten dancers and their colours, but provided no further information, as today.  I took to making notes during the performance, to keep a record.

 

Here is an illustration of how Robbins maintained the spontaneous and improvisatory nature of the ballet.  I hope it will be interesting to read how the "American text" has changed some aspects of the ballet.

 

Rudolf Nureyev always danced the brown boy, often with Anthony Dowell in green.  Nureyev danced all the current entrances of the brown boy, but also appeared in movements 7 and 8.  There are some well-known pictures of Nureyev posing with Dowell and Wall for the "photographs" in movement 7, although the brown boy no longer appears in these movements.

 

Lynn Seymour was an unforgettable green girl in the flirtatious Etude solo (movement 12) and the scene with the three walking boys (now movement 15).  On 15 May 1973, she also appeared as the third girl in movement 8 (now Francesca Hayward) and as one of the three girls in Tristesse.

 

On 18 December 1976, Seymour danced in movements 8, 10 and 15 as before, but Monica Mason took on the Etude solo (movement 12).  Lynn danced the big Scherzo pas de deux with David Wall (movement 17 - now Nunez and Bonelli).

 

On 25 March 1974, Dowell danced the brown boy, but returned for the pas de deux (movement 3), now danced by Bonelli.  He did not dance movement 6 (Eagling), but appeared in movements 7 and 8.  He danced movement 11 and reappeared for the grand waltz (movement 13 - which no longer features the brown boy).  He did not dance the Etude pas de deux (now movement 15 - Coleman) or the Etude solo (movement 16 - Wall), but danced the big Scherzo pas de deux in movement 17 (now taken by Bonelli).

 

Also on 25 March 1974, Monica Mason in apricot danced the humorous pas de deux with Michael Coleman (movement 9 - now Naghdi and Acri).  She danced movement 2 (Hayward), movement 4 (Naghdi), movement 12 (Morera) and Naghdi's entrances in movement 17.

 

So the "American text" is simpler and less spontaneous than the original version.  The original was performed so frequently that the dancers lived their roles and were flexible enough to perform their changing entrances and exits with conviction and confidence.

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Wall]

16 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Seeing  "The Cellist" at the cinema I am afraid I was more disappointed with it than when I saw it live. On second viewing, elements of the narrative approach, with its linear timeline, are now striking  me as rather  laboured  and unsubtle.  I also noticed  a lot more of the new Philip Feeney music than before, and I found it rather uninspiring - not helped by being played overly loud in our cinema. I think the ballet is suffering from having  too many elements, as we are taken through du Pré's  life as  a continuous flow, with no breaks to pause and reflect, or indeed applaud particular  passages of dance. I think this aspect of Marston's choreography is what also put me off her "Victoria".  I agree with reviewers who have described the approach as too literal. I would have preferred  fewer, and more distinct, passages, with the dancing combined just with  the music that  du  Pré played , allowing  space for the dancing and music  to evoke aspects  of her playing  and character, without trying  to tell  a story of her whole musical life in 65 minutes. And I do also agree with the comments about  the ungainly aspects of some of the movements, and relatively lack of what might be usually regarded as "ballet" dancing. 

 

Turning to the positive, for some reason "Dances at a Gathering"  seemed even more glorious last night at the cinema than when I  first saw it last week.  William Bracewell and Alexander Campbell  stood out for me in particular  - clearly BRB's loss is the RB's gain. William is having a great season and I would hope that he is now a strong candidate for promotion to Principal. But all 10 dancers were brilliant  and it was  so good to see them dancing together in a piece that allows so much mutual good humour and respect, as well as skill, to be displayed. For a work that is supposed (according to its creator) to have no plots and no roles, this work, for me, is full of little  potential stories and characters that  a fertile mind might imagine. And  so much emotion! The fact that  ballet can create so much out of  "nothing"  (no defined story, no real set, no props, and just a simple music  accompaniment) is perhaps a useful learning point for today's choreographers. 

 

Richard LH, I agree with much of your fine review.  I was in the house for Tuesday's performance - as opposed to the cinema - and it was my second viewing of 'The Cellist' - which I fear in large part is simply not to my particular taste - while I can - and do - admire the core performing talent - and certainly appreciate how others might find it moving as is clearly its intent.  There was simply too much to get in the way on this occasion for me to react in such a fashion and the musical orchestration - which here largely amounts to the construct of the score - I fear I find troublesome.  Certainly I agree about the general business and the darkness that others have mentioned and am only surprised that someone did not advise the choreographer in advance about these aspects - especially given the relative luxury of the long gestation period this work had. 

 

I have been - and remain - a Marston fan - and will certainly see the second cast in this.  There is no question but that I enjoyed very much parts of 'Victoria' which I saw a number of times.  That elongated pad de trois in the second half of its first act for example I thought was an act of genius.  That lives with me even now.  That said it seemed to me there were more extended sections for the leading dancers there - certainly more extended sections for them away from the mass (there known as 'the archivists') - which - for me - led to greater emotional and visual impact.  Certainly there was very much more choreography that was in a strict balletic idiom.  Perhaps Marston is just better suited to creating ballet on a smaller scale (no problem there) - such as she has so vividly done at Northern Ballet and in Bern - and has happily seen those works translate well onto larger stages such as that of the Joffrey where next season she will create a balletic (well, dance certainly) treatise on Steinbeck's 'Of Mice and Men'.  

 

Agree too about the enhanced joy of the first cast's DAAG performance on that occasion.  It is always thrilling to see a performance where the dancers are free to simply enjoy their love of ballet - as was so vividly the case here.  I was reminded in your 'no plot' reference, that I once heard Robbins himself decades ago at one of those free events at the NYPL - (of which he did SO many being such a keen supporter) - while cross referencing DAAG in and around speaking about something entirely different - let slip how potent an influence De Mille (who had, of course, been so very active during Robbins' time as a performer at ABT) and her fascination with 'homesteading' had been on him in the construct of it.  I was thinking of his throwaway comment on Tuesday while watching DAAG and felt you - well, certainly I - could graphically see fragments of both therein.  

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Bruce Wall

[Sim]

Thanks for that fascinating insight, litaipo. It taught me a lot. How lucky you were to see those first performances with that incredible cast. 

[ninamargaret]

yes, those early performances were quite something! Memory is an unreliable thing, but I would say that the performance i saw on 17 Feb was every bit as good. I certainly think that the RB company we have now is probably even better than the company at that time.

[Jane S]

Just a couple of corrections to Litaipo's interesting post (sorry to seem picky):

 

The first RB performances of Dances at a Gathering were paired with Ashton's Enigma (which was not quite 2 years old and still had all but one of the original cast) and didn't actually open the season - there had been several Romeo and Juliets first. Ashton's creatures of Prometheus didn't have it's company premiere till a couple of weeks later. (They also did Dances as part of a triple bill sometimes - e.g. I saw a matinee of Sylphides/Prodigal Son/Dances)

 

So far as I knowAnthony Dowell never danced Green - he was Gold  at the opening performances and David Wall did Green. Dowell sometimes did the opening solo but I don't think he wore brown. I too used to write down who did what and the allocation of the different numbers varied widely and unpredictably! A lot of different dancers appeared but I don't remember any of them being an improvement on the first cast.

 

And I have to say I didn't think either of the two opening performances of this run were anywhere near the standard of the first cast -  lovely dancing from the women but I was much less impressed by the men. But It always seems to happen that casts improve hugely during the course of a run, as they relax into their roles and let their individual personalities appear.

 

(Lots of the casts, listed by costume colour, are on the online performance database if you have the patience to work through them)

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Jane S

[PatC]

Change of cast notification.....

Corrales now out of Cellist as just back from Italy

[LinMM]

Damn it was looking forward to his Barenboim 

Is this a Coronavirus issue then?

[Sim]

Yes it is.  

[Sim]

37 minutes ago, PatC said:

Change of cast notification.....

Corrales now out of Cellist as just back from Italy

The note just says he is out on Friday, not next week.   Fingers crossed 🤞!

[MJW]

From the ROH's YouTube

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl7ezqkTUiQ&t=29s

[Xandra Newman]

56 minutes ago, Sim said:

The note just says he is out on Friday, not next week.   Fingers crossed 🤞!

 

Was looking forward to seeing the 2nd cast...but as he's just back from Italy, the Corona virus issue demands two weeks of isolation. 

[Sim]

22 minutes ago, Xandra Newman said:

 

Was looking forward to seeing the 2nd cast...but as he's just back from Italy, the Corona virus issue demands two weeks of isolation. 

Even if you are symptom-free??

[Shade]

Current advice is to self isolate if visited certain regions not all of Italy and yes it is 14 days

[Xandra Newman]

It's a grey area isn't it Sim. It takes up to 14 days or more apparently before any symptoms show up so one may be a carrier of the virus unknowingly before the symptoms show, therefore the best precaution would be for any dancer/ opera singer who has been in one of the Government listed countries to self isolate in order to protect other singers and dancers. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Xandra Newman
.

[Lizbie1]

But I don't think it is a grey area! The advice is clear: if you've been in one of the specified towns, you self-isolate; if you've been in northern Italy AND are showing symptoms, you self-isolate.

 

Life has to go on.

[JohnS]

1 hour ago, MJW said:

From the ROH's YouTube

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl7ezqkTUiQ&t=29s

 
Many thanks MJW - fabulous to see this Dances at a Gathering taster. I’d seen a 30 second clip but not the 4 plus minutes. 

[MJW]

11 minutes ago, JohnS said:

 
Many thanks MJW - fabulous to see this Dances at a Gathering taster. I’d seen a 30 second clip but not the 4 plus minutes. 

 

It's always lovely to see the interviews and parts of the rehearsal process

 

[LinMM]

I think it's only if you've been to certain towns or areas.

The self isolation has changed I think ....it was if showing symptoms and now it's just if you've come back from a heavily infected area.

 

I can't help thinking though that it's all a bit of an over reaction. 

Do people self isolate when they have NO symptoms of flu? We'd all be off work all the time...just in case we get it!!

Im sure it's not pleasant but the death rate is currently 2.4 per cent so it really isn't any more dangerous than getting the winter flu and you usually only stay away from others once you become ill with that.