The Royal Ballet: Manon, London, March-May 2018

[penelopesimpson]

6 minutes ago, Mary said:

I don't think this is the point. My objections have always been to some aspects- some- not all-  of Macmillan's choreography- which was made not all that long ago, historically speaking. Of course it is always going to be interesting and important and valid to engage with and portray earlier times and their ways and attitudes.

But, I can't agree that it is  boring to want to move away from cruel prejudice and objectification of women.

Certainly not boring,but surely what may seem like a simple thought (sorry, enlightenment) can pretty soon turn into a purge.  Manon is not a piece of political drama in, say, the manner of a David Hare play.  It is, first and foremost, a story, set at a particular time in a particular place.  Contemporary pieces are different, reflecting the attitudes of their time.  Surely it is up to the consumer to choose what they want to see rather than subject art from a different period to what sounds suspiciously like re-education?

[penelopesimpson]

1 hour ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I'd call that enlightenment....

and I’d call it censorship

[alison]

7 hours ago, MAB said:

I'm afraid I don't see Manon as manipulative at all, quite the opposite.  Someone else has condemned her to a convent until her brother spots her market value,

 

I'd hardly say "condemned".  If you read the novel, you'll see that it's been done by their parents who, recognising Manon's nature, have done it as pretty much a last resort to save her from herself.  Unfortunately, they didn't make allowance for their son ...

 

6 hours ago, Fiona said:

I saw Manon originally in 2000, and the next time in 2014 at the cinema.  I was amazed at how the Gaoler's actions were way, way more pronounced and displayed than originally in 2000. 

 

Was it the same Gaoler?  It has to be said that some of them are more explicit, shall we say, than others.  But I also have a feeling that something has changed since the final act was revised last time around.

 

5 hours ago, ninamargaret said:

She is an innocent who has been seduced by the society she lives in with the help of her unscrupulous brother and to my way of thinking the act II scenes make this very clear. 

 

Oh, she's no innocent.  Not as much as Mary Vetsera isn't, but still ...

 

5 hours ago, bridiem said:

Manon herself seems to be greedy and manipulative and amoral, Des Grieux a bit feeble, and Lescaut just nasty and exploitative. [...] It's only in recent years that the sheer power and quality of the performances have won me over.

 

I don't know either the novel or the opera, so I don't know how much is unique to the ballet or how faithful the representations are to the sources. But I wouldn't necessarily assume that Manon is an innocent - she may be, but I don't see much in the ballet to suggest it.

 

See above   I'd say your assessment of their characters is pretty accurate.  In fact, I remember thinking (possibly saying) in the early years of this century that I thought Des Grieux was such a wimp that I doubted that even Ed Watson would be able to make anything interesting of him :facepalm:

[Indigo]

2 hours ago, betterankles said:

How boring it would be if we now have to be ‘PC’ in all art forms...

 

1 hour ago, ninamargaret said:

Heartily agree! Too many classic plays, novels and even ballets are judged by today's morals without any regard for the morals and ethics, or lack of them, that were in force when they were written. Certain Shakespeare plays have become almost 'off limits' today.

 

Personally, in the case of MacMillan’s Manon, I don’t feel it’s a question of being ‘PC’, or judging a 1974 ballet & the 1731 novel by today’s morals.  It’s about why the story of Manon still resonates today & I’d suggest that’s because its themes are still relevant.

 

In adapting works for the ballet stage, all choreographers will have to make decisions about how they are going to interpret a novel, delineate the main characters, which themes from the novel to draw out or focus upon, what scenes to include & what to cut etc. This can present great challenges, as well as exciting choices. As mentioned in a post upthread, there are myriad ways to be creative about staged interpretations these day.

 

Thinking of recent examples, Liam Scarlett’s interpretation of the novel Frankenstein felt a missed opportunity. It seemed to me to choose to focus on a more literal interpretation, rather than plumbing the psychological possibilities. In contrast, Wayne McGregor got a lot right with interpreting three novels of Virginia Woolf, in Woolf Works, but I think (sensibly) had support from a dramaturg for that.  

 

I’d put forward the view that in his interpretation of Manon, MacMillan has chosen to focus more on graphic depictions of prostitution & rape, but does not truly get to the heart of this complex woman & the society / times in which she lives in a way that I suspect a female choreographer could. I can see ways in which Manon could be portrayed, totally within period, but that also draw out the parallels to our own time – some of the ballet’s themes are universal!      

 

The ballet Manon is based on a novel from 1731. I’m pretty confident that it is possible to choreograph a ballet which does not flinch from the realities of life for women around that time, especially if they were born into poverty/reduced circumstances: lack of education, restricted life choices, a patriarchal society, prostitution etc.  But I agree with Mary.  I don’t believe it is necessary to objectify women, linger in brothel scenes or titillate some members of the audience to achieve this. There doesn’t need to be such a literal staging to get these messages across & in my view would be far more effective & relevant if it didn’t.

 

[alison]

1 hour ago, zxDaveM said:

I'd call that enlightenment....

 

I can't help thinking whether, in maybe 50 or 100 years, people will look back on us and our current society and be as astonished at what we currently consider "enlightened" as we currently appear to be appalled by pre-21st-century attitudes.  I guess they'll naturally assume that their attitudes are superior.

[Richard LH]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/dance/what-to-see/manon-royal-opera-house-review-francesca-hayward-steps-breach/amp/

Good review here - it is rather interesting in the light of some of the discussion on this thread how much dancers themselves love to perform Manon.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Richard LH

[bridiem]

10 hours ago, Indigo said:

I’d put forward the view that in his interpretation of Manon, MacMillan has chosen to focus more on graphic depictions of prostitution & rape, but does not truly get to the heart of this complex woman & the society / times in which she lives in a way that I suspect a female choreographer could. I can see ways in which Manon could be portrayed, totally within period, but that also draw out the parallels to our own time – some of the ballet’s themes are universal!      

 

The ballet Manon is based on a novel from 1731. I’m pretty confident that it is possible to choreograph a ballet which does not flinch from the realities of life for women around that time, especially if they were born into poverty/reduced circumstances: lack of education, restricted life choices, a patriarchal society, prostitution etc.  But I agree with Mary.  I don’t believe it is necessary to objectify women, linger in brothel scenes or titillate some members of the audience to achieve this. There doesn’t need to be such a literal staging to get these messages across & in my view would be far more effective & relevant if it didn’t.

 

I think it's possibly true that MacMillan doesn't get to the heart of Manon (or maybe it's just that I don't 'get' her); but given how effectively he has got to the heart of other women in other ballets, I would suggest that the problem is not necessarily due to his gender. But I do agree that some of the choices he has made (in this and other ballets) are uncomfortable. (And of course, some are brilliant.)

 

(And just to mention that men born into poverty were also in pretty dire circumstances in the past, with perhaps different but equally limited choices.)

Edited March 31, 2018 by bridiem

[Mary]

But also as others say above in this thread,  some of the choices may be down to modern staging and not Macmillan at all...I mean, the hamming up. I don't think we should be spared all horrible scenes, -a Macmillan speciality, which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't in my view- I do mind being expected to chuckle at some of them.

[capybara]

12 hours ago, alison said:

 

I can't help thinking whether, in maybe 50 or 100 years, people will look back on us and our current society and be as astonished at what we currently consider "enlightened" as we currently appear to be appalled by pre-21st-century attitudes.  I guess they'll naturally assume that their attitudes are superior.

 

A fair point but I wouldn't want to give anyone the impression that I think that my attitudes (or views) are superior because I don't feel that.

[Indigo]

3 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

I think it's possibly true that MacMillan doesn't get to the heart of Manon (or maybe it's just that I don't 'get' her); but given how effectively he has got to the heart of other women in other ballets, I would suggest that the problem is not necessarily due to his gender. But I do agree that some of the choices he has made (in this and other ballets) are uncomfortable. (And of course, some are brilliant.)

 

(And just to mention that men born into poverty were also in pretty dire circumstances in the past, with perhaps different but equally limited choices.)

 

2 hours ago, Mary said:

But also as others say above in this thread,  some of the choices may be down to modern staging and not Macmillan at all...I mean, the hamming up. I don't think we should be spared all horrible scenes, -a Macmillan speciality, which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't in my view- I do mind being expected to chuckle at some of them.

 

I don’t know what changes have been made to Manon since MacMillan died, but it’s certainly possible there have been some, though (as others say) I’ve also had the impression that his works & legacy are very well protected by his wife.

 

My understanding is that MacMillan based his ballet Manon on the 1731 novel, but made quite a few changes.  It’s what he chose to alter / concentrate on / depict that gives me the impression I’m seeing the story told from the  perspective of a male choreographer. Though I do appreciate that MacMillan allowed his Manon to be a very flawed & unpleasant character at times, rather than a “tart with a heart”. Also that the dancers can bring their own interpretations to the role. And I’m certainly not saying that male choreographers should not be choreographing ballets about women, or that female choreographers should not be choreographing ballets about men.

 

But I am aware of feeling that after four years of visiting the ROH & watching majority male choreographed ballet on the main stage, I would just like to see more stories which feature a central female protagonist, actually being told by a woman.

[Ian Macmillan]

Indigo: For such stories, I suggest you seek out the work of Cathy Marston whenever you can find it.  Her Jane Eyre, for example, is currently being toured by Northern Ballet, as is The Suit for Ballet Black.   At the moment she is in San Francisco completing/rehearsing her piece Snowblind for the Company's 'Unbound' series of 12 new works, a work for three central characters, two being female.  Later this year, she will be in Montreal to prepare her take on Lady Chatterley for Les Grands Ballets Canadiens.

 

Where you will not find her, regrettably, is doing anything for the Royal Ballet - unless something is under wraps for the next but one season or later.

[RobR]

23 hours ago, MAB said:

One of the most pressing of problems is to do something with the corps de ballet in Act II, frankly their antics have to be reigned in as a matter of urgency, last night people were laughing in all the wrong places as the whores and customers distracted many in the audience with their idiocy.  The are simply going too far and someone should step in and tone things down.  The principals deserve better than being sabotaged by their colleagues.

 

Whilst I completely accept that there are two perspectives on the role of those in the background, a hallmark of MacMillan's fabulous ballets is the involvement of those supporting the frontline performers.

 

I always feel that I am emotionally transported to an 18 century Parisian brothel or a bustling Veronese market square filled with tradespeople and bored (but armed) teenagers 'hanging out' with their chums. 

 

MacMillan's ballets are anything but static and that is one of the many great strengths of his productions. 

 

I am regularly frustrated watching the summer performances of the Russian companies, in which brilliant principals perform in front of a backdrop wooden faced, inanimate onlookers who might as well have stayed in the dressing rooms for all they contribute. 

 

Still, it's a matter of style and taste. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by RobR
Typo 2

[Beryl H]

8 hours ago, RobR said:

 

 

I am regularly frustrated watching the summer performances of the Russian companies, in which brilliant principals perform in front of a backdrop wooden faced, inanimate onlookers who might as well have stayed in the dressing rooms for all they contribute. 

 

 

 I'm always surprised too when watching even the best Russian companies at how bored the "onlookers" seem.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Beryl H

[capybara]

18 minutes ago, RobR said:

 

a hallmark of MacMillan's fabulous ballets is the involvement of those supporting the frontline performers.

 

I am regularly frustrated watching the summer performances of the Russian companies, in which brilliant principals perform in front of a backdrop wooden faced, inanimate onlookers who might as well have stayed in the dressing rooms for all they contribute. 

 

 

Agree in both respects, although the Russian corps are more animated than they used to be.

However, I think what a few of us are feeling about what we saw on the opening night of Manon is that some of the 'support' went over the top and detracted from 'the frontline performers'. I would have put this down to inexperience but some real 'old-timers' (in Manon terms!) were just as guilty in places.

[Lizbie1]

2 hours ago, Ian Macmillan said:

Indigo: For such stories, I suggest you seek out the work of Cathy Marston whenever you can find it.  Her Jane Eyre, for example, is currently being toured by Northern Ballet, as is The Suit for Ballet Black.

 

Wholeheartedly seconded: I can't imagine, for example, MacMillan (who I'm not intending to knock!) even noticing the importance of female friendship and companionship to Jane Eyre, let alone illustrating it so effectively.

[Guest]

Until last Thursday, I hadn't seen Manon in its entirety since about 1996/7, (my first one was in 1982 and many in between, including the Penney/Dowell recording), so of course the orchestration was new to me. I liked it in parts, but in many places I didn't find it an improvement over the original. And why include that extra music before the gaelor scene? - unnecessary. I do feel they should just leave alone. My question to other forum members who were there on Thursday, did Monsieur GM let out an audible cry when he found out he had been cheated at cards in Act 2? To me it sounded as if he did. Don't remember that from before. Certain moments of the ballet brought back memories of certain  much loved performers: Sarah Wildor in the bedroom pas de deux; Bruce Sansom after he killed the Gaelor; Guillem and Cope in their high-risk taking swamp pas de deux; David Wall just sitting there at the beginning; the warm feminine charm of Laura Connor and the ease of those arms movements and épaulement (fascinating to see a thread through from Nijinska and Ashton to MacMillan); the ghosts of Rencher, Edwards, Drew and Larsen. And I just thought, 'What a wonderful company', both then, to have created this piece, and now, to still perform it so brilliantly.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Darlex

[alison]

12 hours ago, Indigo said:

My understanding is that MacMillan based his ballet Manon on the 1731 novel, but made quite a few changes.  It’s what he chose to alter / concentrate on / depict that gives me the impression I’m seeing the story told from the  perspective of a male choreographer.

 

In that case, though, I'd say he was being authentic.  (I was posting from the library earlier today, went off on an - unsuccessful - hunt for the novel, and by the time I got back the Wifi was down again, but) IIRC the novel is related entirely from the point of view of Des Grieux and a (male, of course) narrator: Manon is never given her own voice.  I know MacMillan cut out the repetition - in the same way that Ashton/Prokofiev doesn't have Cinderella going to the ball 3 times, although she does in the original story - and that there are significant differences in the treatment of Lescaut (I seem to remember gambling debts, and possibly him being killed because of them?).  More, I can't remember at present.

[Guest]

This is probably for another thread, but it occurred to me while at the performance of Manon: is the ROH ditching plastic? Mercifully, I didn't get the usual straw thrust into my drink in the interval. I certainly wish they would ditch the plastic around the bouquets presented. It always looked far more tasteful without. Maybe too many ballerinas got pricked by thorns from their roses? And with that thought I bid you goodnight  - I'm off to sleep.

[Indigo]

8 hours ago, alison said:

 

In that case, though, I'd say he was being authentic.  (I was posting from the library earlier today, went off on an - unsuccessful - hunt for the novel, and by the time I got back the Wifi was down again, but) IIRC the novel is related entirely from the point of view of Des Grieux and a (male, of course) narrator: Manon is never given her own voice.  I know MacMillan cut out the repetition - in the same way that Ashton/Prokofiev doesn't have Cinderella going to the ball 3 times, although she does in the original story - and that there are significant differences in the treatment of Lescaut (I seem to remember gambling debts, and possibly him being killed because of them?).  More, I can't remember at present.

 

Yesterday, I downloaded a free edition of the Abbé Prévost novel (in English) on my kindle & am about a third of the way through – around the point where Des Grieux is in prison & has just found out Manon is in the Magdalen.

 

You’re right that the story in the novel is essentially being narrated by Des Grieux & I can see your point there regarding a male narrator. (Though interestingly, in MacMillan’s ballet, Des Grieux isn’t really fleshed out as a character, in my view.)    Lizbie1 a few posts up-thread gets to the heart of what I mean, which is why I ‘liked’ the post. (I haven’t seen Cathy Marston’s Jane Eyre or enough MacMillan ballets to comment on the specific example.)

 

I’ll wait until I’ve had a chance to finish the novel & ponder on it, before commenting too much. But so far there is a fascinating psychological angle to the romantic relationship between Des Grieux & Manon.  It certainly doesn’t read to me as Romeo & Juliet style love in the novel, or as a healthy romantic relationship. I’m getting very unhealthy co-dependency vibes & Manon comes across as high in narcissistic traits. I shall read on…

 

[Sim]

Interesting....whilst some people on this thread think that Act 2 goes too far and should be pruned or calmed down, Neil Norman in his review says that the ballet has been "anaesthetised" .   Another example of how perceptions differ!

[ninamargaret]

Have been looking at two versions of Manon on You Tube, the Australian ballet and the Danish Royal. The former is pretty close to ours, but the Danish version came over, to me at any rate, as somewhat watered down, almost too polite, and the costumes are quite nasty. So yet another perspective!

[Jan McNulty]

ENB use the RDB costumes!

[Mary]

3 hours ago, Sim said:

Interesting....whilst some people on this thread think that Act 2 goes too far and should be pruned or calmed down, Neil Norman in his review says that the ballet has been "anaesthetised" .   Another example of how perceptions differ!

Mr Norman says 'the deviancy in the brothel scene has been anaesthetised'- (would 'sanitised' be a better word? I can imagine the audience being anesthetised but not a scene.)

 This begs the question of what you call deviancy- does it mean that chasing young girls in a brothel is normal red-blooded male fun, whereas the deviancy was the depiction of- other preferences? I can't remember what exactly used to be depicted, but seem to recall, for example, one of the girls being very young, a child in fact, and this has, perhaps been changed-?

 

His description of Hayward sliding out of bed 'like mercury' brilliantly evokes her quality of movement- spot on!

[ninamargaret]

 

37 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

ENB use the RDB costumes!

Haven't seen their production, but still didn't like them!

[Sharon]

On 3/31/2018 at 12:15, Ian Macmillan said:

Indigo: For such stories, I suggest you seek out the work of Cathy Marston whenever you can find it.  Her Jane Eyre, for example, is currently being toured by Northern Ballet, as is The Suit for Ballet Black.   At the moment she is in San Francisco completing/rehearsing her piece Snowblind for the Company's 'Unbound' series of 12 new works, a work for three central characters, two being female.  Later this year, she will be in Montreal to prepare her take on Lady Chatterley for Les Grands Ballets Canadiens.

 

Where you will not find her, regrettably, is doing anything for the Royal Ballet - unless something is under wraps for the next but one season or later.

Yes Ian I agree. I'm actually off to California in a couple of weeks and I have a ticket for the Unbound festival, & I'm so looking forward to seeing Snowblind. I just wrote last night on another thread that I wished Kevin O'Hare would invite Cathy Marston to the RB to create a classical narrative ballet....

[Vanartus]

Berlin Ballet when they did Manon some time ago used RDB costumes - I think ENB use them because whole design and scenery is far easier to take on tour.

[toursenlair]

4 hours ago, ninamargaret said:

Have been looking at two versions of Manon on You Tube, the Australian ballet and the Danish Royal. The former is pretty close to ours, but the Danish version came over, to me at any rate, as somewhat watered down, almost too polite, and the costumes are quite nasty. So yet another perspective!

 

I loathe the RDB costumes.

[Mary]

The whole of act 1 of RDBs Manon seems to be on youtube- (there goes the spring cleaning)-and  from a quick look, the costumes seem to me pared down, sure, a bit monochrome, but I can't see what provokes the very strong negative reactions, so am interested to hear more. The poor beggars in their grey rags look actually very poor as opposed to those in the RB version.....

 

[ninamargaret]

2 hours ago, Mary said:

The whole of act 1 of RDBs Manon seems to be on youtube- (there goes the spring cleaning)-and  from a quick look, the costumes seem to me pared down, sure, a bit monochrome, but I can't see what provokes the very strong negative reactions, so am interested to hear more. The poor beggars in their grey rags look actually very poor as opposed to those in the RB version.....

 

The other two acts are also there, so bang goes even more spring cleaning! And you may see what I mean about The costumes particularly in act II. 

[alison]

The whores' costumes show way too much leg: there's nothing left to the imagination (and nothing to hoick up when the choreography requires it)

[Scheherezade]

10 hours ago, Mary said:

I can't remember what exactly used to be depicted, but seem to recall, for example, one of the girls being very young, a child in fact, and this has, perhaps been changed-?

 

 

 

I seem to remember the young child, too. Unless I am confusing this with another ballet.

[Scheherezade]

 

I always felt that there was something of the publically-perceived Princess Margaret about Manon in her choice of creature comforts and status above love.

[bridiem]

6 hours ago, Scheherezade said:

 

I always felt that there was something of the publically-perceived Princess Margaret about Manon in her choice of creature comforts and status above love.

 

I don't know if that is the public perception of Princess Margaret's choice, but it's not mine. I didn't know her and that was a complicated and difficult situation so I would not presume to judge. Either way, her situation was rather different from that of a (fictional) young woman born into poverty. Although in fact Manon doesn't seem to struggle all that much with her options (until she is hit by the horror of their consequences).

Edited April 2, 2018 by bridiem