Royal Ballet's Swan Lake (Spring 2022)

[emmarose]

5 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

 

As I already said, a momentary slip-up by someone in their debut performance does not give Joe Public (however much they paid for their tickets) the right to question that dancer's readiness for the role. They willl have danced that step perfectly thousands of times before. They will be kicking themselves that they fouled it up when it mattered the most.

 

There really is no need for audience members to criticise so much.

 

 

It depends who's saying it. Some people are more qualified to comment than others, and constructive criticism is always welcome.

 

I've known Joe Sissens since he was 10 - my daughter danced with him at one time. He displayed phenomenal talent even then, and I've been following his progress ever since.

 

The thing is, it's a forum, we don't need to show credentials to have an opinion. We all go to the shows, we all are entitled to say what we found there. 

Someone who has never danced before nor seen a ballet before is entitled to say they were underwhelmed if a ballerina falters, they've paid their money for an experience and that's their experience.

[emmarose]

6 minutes ago, art_enthusiast said:

That's very true.

I was admittedly slightly underwhelmed by Francesca Hayward's Odette/Odile. But I am well aware that she's obviously an amazing dancer, with extremely strong artistry and dramatic qualities and her Ashtonian ability is known as one of her great strengths. I saw her in Rhapsody twice in April and was completely spellbound by her performance. I remember thinking that the role appeared to be made for her, she appeared to be so much more confident.
Not saying she isn't made for Odette/Odile as well - just that more experience with the role will make her more confident in it. If a dancer doesn't excel in the role now, they most likely will in the future.

 

I agree with you. She really does excel in Ashton pieces, and I agree about Rhapsody, I thought both she and Marci could have been the original cast, it fit them like a glove and she was so beautifully poised and lyrical. 

[Linnzi5]

3 minutes ago, art_enthusiast said:

That's very true.

I was admittedly slightly underwhelmed by Francesca Hayward's Odette/Odile. But I am well aware that she's obviously an amazing dancer, with extremely strong artistry and dramatic qualities and her Ashtonian ability is known as one of her great strengths. I saw her in Rhapsody twice in April and was completely spellbound by her performance. I remember thinking that the role appeared to be made for her, she appeared to be so much more confident.
Not saying she isn't made for Odette/Odile as well - just that more experience with the role will make her more confident in it. If a dancer doesn't excel in the role now, they most likely will in the future.

I agree. I have loved many of Hayward's performances and admire many aspects of her as a dancer. She was amazing in Rhapsody!  I can only imagine how hard Odette/Odile are to perform and it may not be every dancer's forte. I still really loved her and Bracewell in Swan Lake though - I just have preferred other interpretations of Odette, particularly. I loved Cuthbertson's interpretation. It's different from others I have seen, yet I really appreciated it - she really impressed me. I do enjoy seeing different pairings, which is why I try to go to as many performances as I can. There are usually different things I like about each interpretation. However, one performance has to include William Bracewell!

 

Incidentally, I have seen a few mishaps over the years and the only thing I feel is concern for the dancer it's happened to. It is part and parcel of live performance that things don't always go the way you would want them to. In the short video I saw at the live cinema relay, William Bracewell was talking about Act III, saying it was a chance to 'show off - if it all goes to plan!' I would think that dancers (and musicians) accept this -  certainly, as a musician, I always have. Doesn't feel nice when things go wrong, but that's life!

 

I must say I really enjoyed the orchestra when I saw the Friday, 13th performance at ROH - the cinema live relay last Thursday sounded great too, but not as wonderful as hearing them live, in person, at ROH. I felt the strings were particularly on top form and I liked the general pace of the music, too. I know there was the odd blip in the brass section, but those instruments are prone to that, in my experience, and I expect it. 

[taxi4ballet]

19 minutes ago, emmarose said:

 

Someone who has never danced before nor seen a ballet before is entitled to say they were underwhelmed if a ballerina falters, they've paid their money for an experience and that's their experience.

Well yes, but chances are that someone like that is unlikely to be openly critical of a dancer's ability on a forum such as this one. 

[JNC]

I feel every now and again this conversation pops up on this forum - who has a “right” to comment (those with dancing experience, those who understand the ballet terms and position) and given this is an open forum, that anyone can join, I think as long as opinions are not “below the belt” attacks (for example on someone’s appearance, which generally get called out and the moderators step in) then all opinions should be allowed and respected. You can (respectfully) disagree and engage in debate, or you can ignore. 
 

we don’t all need to agree with each other, and whether it’s someone’s first show or their 100th, whether someone knows more or not really doesn’t matter in a forum like this. I would of course expect paid reviewers to have a level of knowledge and background  in a published review. And of course I appreciate opinions from those with more technical experience or historical knowledge. 
 

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say a dancer is not deserving of a promotion - but even if they did yes it may be a little hurtful if the dancer in question read that, but it is still one person’s opinion, and if they wish to express it they can do so. Similarly I think it’s fair game to say that they think someone is perhaps not ready for a role or cannot technically execute certain choreographic aspects - from the comments on here it appears it’s not just a one time thing but each performance the fouettés have not been completed successfully. To me this doesn’t invalidate a whole performance but I can understand that they are an importance piece of the ballet and there may be disappointment. Again it’s just one person’s opinions as we all have slightly different preferences and what is important to us. 

I won’t comment anymore as I don’t wish to sidetrack the thread further and hope we can all move on to read some good (mixed?) reviews on the final performances of swan lake, and it would be nice if people felt able to contribute all different types of opinions on here, critical or not, with expertise or not, without fear of getting told they are wrong or shouldn’t be able to make a comment based on their own personal experience. They are not asking you to agree with them! 

 

so a final plea to please keep posting critical comments and reviews, no matter your knowledge or background! 

[annamk]

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

 

As I already said, a momentary slip-up by someone in their debut performance does not give Joe Public (however much they paid for their tickets) the right to question that dancer's readiness for the role. They willl have danced that step perfectly thousands of times before. They will be kicking themselves that they fouled it up when it mattered the most.

 

There really is no need for audience members to criticise so much.

 

 

It depends who's saying it. Some people are more qualified to comment than others, and constructive criticism is always welcome.

 

I've known Joe Sissens since he was 10 - my daughter danced with him at one time. He displayed phenomenal talent even then, and I've been following his progress ever since.

 

Most of the comments on this forum are extremely positive and it’s a rare occasion when someone says something very critical. It’s unfair to diminish "Joe Public's" criticism based on the fact that a dancer may be having a bad night. Does that mean we can never say anything negative about a performance because there may have been extenuating factors? Criticism would die. 

 

As far as "more qualified to comment" is concerned, I suppose someone "more qualified" is able to say whether the steps were perfectly performed although I've even heard RB coaches express different opinions about a performance. 

 

Dancers have different skills, not everyone can pull off 32 perfect fouettes but not everyone can dance and act an exceptional Juliet. I don't understand why it is a problem to discuss this on the forum ? 

 

[JennyTaylor]

What a hugely interesting thread. I've seen 10 performances of Swan Lake live and all have moved me in different ways. Yes, the Act 3 fireworks have been performed in many differing ways and I know which ones I preferred.  I have tried to refrain from criticising where perhaps critical comments may have been deserved, because I have loved all the dancers I have seen, but I will say, I hope in a polite way, where I have been disappointed. There are dancers, which I simply don't book to see, because I know I will get nothing from it, or be irritated.   So, sometimes, silence can be equally powerful. I prefer to praise if I can, but no comment is also an option.  In my mind, any Principal of the Royal Ballet should be up to performing Act 3 to the highest standard.  I'm sure they all can in rehearsal so when they don't,  it's a disappointment to the audience. Often, as others have said, I'm feel more for the dancer concerned than I do for myself as an audience member and when Act 4 comes along, it's all forgotten.   But this Forum thrives on personal opinions and long may that continue. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by JennyTaylor
typo

[bridiem]

2 minutes ago, annamk said:

Dancers have different skills, not everyone can pull off 32 perfect fouettes but not everyone can dance and act an exceptional Juliet. I don't understand why it is a problem to discuss this on the forum ? 

 

It isn't a problem - I think that's been made clear. 

[art_enthusiast]

Just letting everyone know - Swan Lake (2018) is still on BBC iPlayer for a short while, if anyone wants to watch.

[maryrosesatonapin]

I was unable to go to the screening on Thursday evening so we went this afternoon.  The part I enjoyed most was the short film about Lauren Cuthbertson - the choreography was gorgeous, and it was lovely to have an insight into the human being behind the glittering on-stage swan.  And I thought Lauren's long limbs were particularly swan-like.

Nearly everyone on this forum seems to love William Bracewell, so I will probably be unpopular when I say that for me he isn't ideal in princely roles.  He's more of a very sweet boy-next-door.  (I thought he made a terrific Romeo.) His dancing is graceful and accurate, but he just doesn't have much stage presence and nor does he exude very strong characterisation.  He spent a lot of time on the film just looking vaguely worried, especially during tricky areas of partnering.  I am not suggesting he actually WAS worried - he is too capable a dancer for that - but that's what his expression conveyed to me.  I felt Cuthbertson would have been better partnered by (for example) Reece Clarke, who is also of a more suitable height for her.

 

Ducking for cover....

[Linnzi5]

3 minutes ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

Nearly everyone on this forum seems to love William Bracewell, so I will probably be unpopular when I say that for me he isn't ideal in princely roles.  He's more of a very sweet boy-next-door.  (I thought he made a terrific Romeo.) His dancing is graceful and accurate, but he just doesn't have much stage presence and nor does he exude very strong characterisation.  He spent a lot of time on the film just looking vaguely worried, especially during tricky areas of partnering.  I am not suggesting he actually WAS worried - he is too capable a dancer for that - but that's what his expression conveyed to me.  I felt Cuthbertson would have been better partnered by (for example) Reece Clarke, who is also of a more suitable height for her.

 

Ducking for cover....

No need for that!  😊 I don't agree with your opinion but totally respect it. We all see different things and have different likes and dislikes and that is how it should be. It'd be pretty boring if we all thought the same things all the time.  

[Mary]

Yes I too felt there was a bit too much of the worried facial expression from Bracewell.

 I don't mind if they are a bit shorter or have different colour hair,  but I prefer my princes less worried.

😄

 

But I do like him a lot and look forward to seeing him in many roles.

[bridiem]

5 minutes ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

I was unable to go to the screening on Thursday evening so we went this afternoon.  The part I enjoyed most was the short film about Lauren Cuthbertson - the choreography was gorgeous, and it was lovely to have an insight into the human being behind the glittering on-stage swan.  And I thought Lauren's long limbs were particularly swan-like.

Nearly everyone on this forum seems to love William Bracewell, so I will probably be unpopular when I say that for me he isn't ideal in princely roles.  He's more of a very sweet boy-next-door.  (I thought he made a terrific Romeo.) His dancing is graceful and accurate, but he just doesn't have much stage presence and nor does he exude very strong characterisation.  He spent a lot of time on the film just looking vaguely worried, especially during tricky areas of partnering.  I am not suggesting he actually WAS worried - he is too capable a dancer for that - but that's what his expression conveyed to me.  I felt Cuthbertson would have been better partnered by (for example) Reece Clarke, who is also of a more suitable height for her.

 

Ducking for cover....

 

That just shows how differently different dancers can come across to different people. Vive la différence and all that. 

[bridiem]

I actually think that quite a lot of male dancers (not just RB, and not just in Swan Lake) either look a bit worried when they're doing tricky bits of partnering, and/or concentrate so hard that they briefly forget to act/stay in role. The same thing can happen when male or female dancers are in the middle of very difficult solos (e.g., dare I say it, fouettés). How they generally manage to perform incredibly difficult steps whilst beaming nonchalantly throughout (at least when that's required) I have absolutely no idea; the fact that sometimes they don't always fully manage it is I think entirely understandable.

[alison]

4 hours ago, JennyTaylor said:

In my mind, any Principal of the Royal Ballet should be up to performing Act 3 to the highest standard. 

 

Not necessarily, though.  I can think of a number of RB principals over the past few decades who probably wouldn't have been - although to be fair they generally weren't cast in it.  That's not to denigrate any of them, or to suggest that they weren't worthy principals, just an acknowledgement that their particular talents lay elsewhere in the repertoire.

[alison]

On 20/05/2022 at 13:10, alison said:

 

I'm sure he will be soon.  It can only be a matter of time, surely?

 

Okay, I really didn't quite consider 48 hours as a possibility

[pasdedeux]

I attended the broadcast Cuthbertson/Bracewell performance live at the ROH and thought it was utterly transformative. 

 

Bracewell’s solo at the end of Act One was the unexpected highlight of the whole evening for me - he poured untold depth of characterisation into what I still think is a very poorly constructed role in the current production. With just that one variation, I could feel the Prince’s frustration and ardent longing.

As this is hot on the heels of being quite blown away by his Beliaev in Month, I really do think this is the most excited I have been about a male principal in the past decade!

 

Cuthbertson is enjoying a very inspired moment in her career - it was the most technically secure in a big tutu role that I have seen her in years. Her white acts were majestically beautiful and I found her mime very touchingly executed.

 

Some other thoughts from this and other performances I have seen throughout the run:

* I do agree with the discourse above on technique and it colouring my overall enjoyment of Act Three in particular. Odile shows up for one act with a wickedly confident smile and we - and the Prince - are supposed to be dazzled in very short order. I did feel rather underwhelmed by some of the performances earlier this run where I felt anxiety from the dancers when tackling the Odile choreography and it did break my immersion 

* There is a lot of talent in the RB ranks at present but I did find the quality between castings variable (looking at the two lead roles only). Of course, part of the joy of ballet is seeing fresh pairings and new interpretations but some nights left me feeling rather short changed. This is leaving aside the occasional mishap or slip which is part and parcel of live performing. Between the 5 Odette/Odiles I saw, the confidence of presentation and technical execution varied notably, and this didn’t always necessarily correlate to seniority or experience! 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by pasdedeux

[Scheherezade]

We have discussed at length, and quite rightly to my mind - this is, after all, a forum or, to put it another way, a medium for the exchange of ideas and views on a particular topic - the merits and demerits of being able to criticise a particular performance.

What I find interesting is the fact that nobody seems to balk at similar criticism of a choreographer’s work.

 

What is the difference? Why is it considered acceptable to say that you do not enjoy a particular choreographer’s style or output or that you find certain choreographic works derivative, repetitive or just plain bland? Are choreographers deemed to be less sensitive to criticism than dancers? Just asking …

 

[Lizbie1]

I think there's a difference between not having the expertise to criticise the finer points of technique and politely pointing out something which is obvious to any reasonably experienced viewer.

 

That said: I don't think it's in general fair to conclude that a dancer isn't up to Swan Lake Act 3 until they have several performances under their belt - and if we were to do so we'd be forgetting the less-than-perfect debuts of some very good technicians.

 

Edited to add: the variability we've seen this season is surely related to the large number of debuts, a consequence of there being I think only two debuts in the seven(?) preceding years.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Lizbie1

[Jan McNulty]

I would have thought that even the most technically proficient and experienced dancer can still be nervous over a big debut and maybe the weight of responsibility can get to them.

 

In my viewing I tend to be a bit more "broad brush" so if someone slips or has some slight mishap it doesn't usually affect my overall enjoyment of the performance if it has "said something to me".

 

Many years ago there was a male dancer who did nothing for me at all but at one performance he was partnering a lady making her debut as Tatiana in Onegin.  She completely lost her place in the mirror pdd at the end of act 1 and he got her through it to the extent that if you had never seen Onegin before you would not have realised something was amiss.  Overall it became a magical performance and I went on to see the male dancer with different eyes.

 

In respect of the fouettés, they are a couple of minutes out of a near 3-hour performance so I don't tend to judge the overall performance just on someone's ability to do 32.  I don't count so I wouldn't know if someone only achieved 28 or 30 of them and I really don't care if that is the case.  I prefer single fouettés that keep time with the music rather than doubles or triples being thrown in but I'm not going to die in a ditch over it.  

 

I don't care if a different step is substituted in instead or if the dancer has to move onto a different step part way through.

 

When I was watching another company performing another ballet which features 32 fouettés a dancer whom I have considered my gold standard for fouettés for quite some years made quite a pig's ear of them but it didn't mar my overall enjoyment of her performance throughout the rest of the ballet.

 

As a matter of interest does anyone ever discuss the merits of the male dancers' spins during black swan?

[Jan McNulty]

5 hours ago, Scheherezade said:

 

What I find interesting is the fact that nobody seems to balk at similar criticism of a choreographer’s work.

 

What is the difference? Why is it considered acceptable to say that you do not enjoy a particular choreographer’s style or output or that you find certain choreographic works derivative, repetitive or just plain bland? Are choreographers deemed to be less sensitive to criticism than dancers? Just asking …

 

 

Very good point Scheherezade.

[Rob S]

5 hours ago, Scheherezade said:

We have discussed at length, and quite rightly to my mind - this is, after all, a forum or, to put it another way, a medium for the exchange of ideas and views on a particular topic - the merits and demerits of being able to criticise a particular performance.

What I find interesting is the fact that nobody seems to balk at similar criticism of a choreographer’s work.

 

What is the difference? Why is it considered acceptable to say that you do not enjoy a particular choreographer’s style or output or that you find certain choreographic works derivative, repetitive or just plain bland? Are choreographers deemed to be less sensitive to criticism than dancers? Just asking …

 

 

Choreographers have months or years to create their bland repetitive output, a dancer can mess up a move in a single second possibly through no fault of their own

 

[bangorballetboy]

34 minutes ago, Rob S said:

their bland repetitive output

 

A touch harsh, IMHO. 

[Rob S]

2 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

A touch harsh, IMHO. 

 

I'm using the words of the person I'm quoting

[bangorballetboy]

15 minutes ago, Rob S said:

 

I'm using the words of the person I'm quoting

 

Aha.  In which case, my comment applies to them!!!

[pasdedeux]

59 minutes ago, Rob S said:

 

Choreographers have months or years to create their bland repetitive output, a dancer can mess up a move in a single second possibly through no fault of their own

 

That deals with the point as to why we shouldn’t lambast dancers for, or focus unduly on, fleeting or momentary mistakes on stage (which is the correct approach in my opinion)

 

What about dancers who often seem to miss the mark in their performance, characterisation or interpretation, in a way that is perhaps uncommon for a dancer of their rank? What separates the ability to discuss that here - which we rarely do in an overtly critical manner - and the ability to be freely critical about choreographic output that isn’t to our taste?

 

If I don’t enjoy a performer or performance, should I simply refrain from commenting? I don’t ask this confrontationally - I am just aware that I will discuss my disappointment with my friends, but I feel discouraged from doing so here

[bridiem]

23 minutes ago, pasdedeux said:

That deals with the point as to why we shouldn’t lambast dancers for, or focus unduly on, fleeting or momentary mistakes on stage (which is the correct approach in my opinion)

 

What about dancers who often seem to miss the mark in their performance, characterisation or interpretation, in a way that is perhaps uncommon for a dancer of their rank? What separates the ability to discuss that here - which we rarely do in an overtly critical manner - and the ability to be freely critical about choreographic output that isn’t to our taste?

 

If I don’t enjoy a performer or performance, should I simply refrain from commenting? I don’t ask this confrontationally - I am just aware that I will discuss my disappointment with my friends, but I feel discouraged from doing so here

 

I don't feel discouraged from doing so here. The only difference is that if I'm going to be negative I think more carefully about how I express myself since I'm writing about fellow human beings who have no doubt done their best. It's also pleasanter to be able to be positive! (And in practice, I do of course tend to book for dancers and productions I think/hope I will like.) I only dislike negative posts if they seem to me to be unnecessarily unkind, but I think that happens very rarely. Negative posts tend to be less popular, but so what? As others have said, the forum would be much less interesting if posts are only ever positive.

Edited May 23, 2022 by bridiem
typo and sentence added

[Rob S]

30 minutes ago, pasdedeux said:

That deals with the point as to why we shouldn’t lambast dancers for, or focus unduly on, fleeting or momentary mistakes on stage (which is the correct approach in my opinion)

 

What about dancers who often seem to miss the mark in their performance, characterisation or interpretation, in a way that is perhaps uncommon for a dancer of their rank?

 

Not all dancers have the same characterisation or interpretation as others of the same rank in which case maybe that's more the fault of the person that chose them for the role

[art_enthusiast]

14 minutes ago, Rob S said:

 

Not all dancers have the same characterisation or interpretation as others of the same rank in which case maybe that's more the fault of the person that chose them for the role

Definitely - that's why casting is such an important job!
Putting a dancer in a role that might be too challenging/not suited to their style doesn't really benefit anyone. They won't be confident/at their best, and the audience will most likely be able to feel that.

[LinMM]

Talking about male dancers “spins” as it were I’m getting rather fed up with this current newish practice of bringing the leg down to the ankle in the middle of a pirouette sequence. 
It doesn’t look very good to me but whether this in fact helps turn it into an “ice skater like spin” rather than more classically perfected turns I’m not sure but it’s easier turning with a lowered leg not harder (in my limited experience) so otherwise not sure why this has become so fashionable in last few years 🤔

 

[Scheherezade]

3 hours ago, Rob S said:

 

Choreographers have months or years to create their bland repetitive output, a dancer can mess up a move in a single second possibly through no fault of their own

 

 

True, but much of this discussion has pitted the effect of criticising dancers who have failed to meet the gold standard for fouettés against the rights of the audience to expect flawless execution.
 

Posts have singularly avoided the circumstances you describe where a dancer has messed up through no fault of their own, evaluating, instead, the effect of criticism upon the sensibilities of a dancer who has disappointed or failed to inspire a member of the audience as opposed to that audience member’s right to deliver that criticism.
 

Sorry Rob S but I really can’t see how this is any different from posters on the forum criticising a choreographer’s work, which is accepted without a murmur, or the equal potential for damage to the sensibilities of a choreographer with the proverbial egg shell skull, however much time that choreographer has been given to perfect his or her piece of work. 
 

 

2 hours ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

Aha.  In which case, my comment applies to them!!!

Mmm, this refers to my post:

Why is it considered acceptable to say that you do not enjoy a particular choreographer’s style or output or that you find certain choreographic works derivative, repetitive or just plain bland? Are choreographers deemed to be less sensitive to criticism than dancers? Just asking 

by way of Rob S:

I'm using the words of the person I'm quoting

 

to which, Rob, I can do no better than paraphrase the immortal words of the late, great Eric Morecombe: You may have used the right words but not necessarily in the right order (or, perhaps a tad wickedly, designated the right meaning). 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Scheherezade

[miliosr]

21 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

Judgemental criticism of an elite professional... no.

But it's precisely that judgmental criticism of elite professionals which separates a Margot Fonteyn from Margot Fonteyn's friend from the conservatory who also danced professionally. Ultimately, criticism is the means by which the practitioners, the professional critics and the audience arrive at a rough consensus as to who is truly extraordinary and who isn't. Arriving at that consensus may not be pretty but it's better than its alternative where praise is distributed indiscriminately and ends up having no meaning.

 

18 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

It depends who's saying it. Some people are more qualified to comment than others

As the American dance critic Edwin Denby (perhaps the finest dance critic the United States has ever produced) wrote: "Criticism is a conversation that the audience has with itself, and if the performer wants to eavesdrop on the conversation, he does so at his own risk."

I understand how people (professional critics or audience members) making criticisms need to be responsible (i.e discussing matters of weight) but, ultimately, I prefer a "rude" conversation where all voices are heard to one where only a self-appointed priestly caste is allowed to comment. The latter is only one step away from hagiography and from there - stagnation ("all is as it ever was").

[Rob S]

39 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

 

to which, Rob, I can do no better than paraphrase the immortal words of the late, great Eric Morecombe: You may have used the right words but not necessarily in the right order (or, perhaps a tad wickedly, designated the right meaning). 

 

They were in the right order 👼