Royal Ballet's Swan Lake (Spring 2022)

[bangorballetboy]

1 hour ago, oncnp said:

 

At times like this I really wish people would have the courtesy to respect other's opinions, even if they disagree with them. 

If like is agree and unlike is disagree, what’s discourteous? Just shorthand.

[Guest oncnp]

35 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

If like is agree and unlike is disagree, what’s discourteous? Just shorthand.

If that's all it is - a method to disagree without criticizing or belittling the original poster - it's a great idea. 

[Toria]

I saw Anna Rose's second performance and I found her spellbinding and every inch the convincing principal. I actually really liked the addition of the pique turns at the end of the fouettes, it felt like this was part of Odile's game of cat and mouse and her way of saying "come and follow me" to Siegfried as she moved off to the side. So it didn't break the spell for me at all. I think Kevin has made excellent choices on who gets cast as Odette/Odile in this run. It would be a crying shame to have missed out on such a beautiful performance over such a small thing.

[JNC]

I don’t equate likes to agreeing. I will sometimes like posts that I don’t necessarily agree with but think propose an interesting/alternative point of view. 
 

I quite like seeing some of the more critical posts on here to give some balance - given critics will only review usually one opening night performance I’ve found opinions on here helpful in making decisions about what casts I might like to see. 
 
I worry a dislike button would just discourage people from posting anything that is not positive. Now if people don’t like a post they can either ignore or engage in debate, which seem to me better options than being able to visually see how many people disagree or think you’re wrong. Overall the forum is a rather friendly place where varying opinions are respected and discussed and a dislike button would make it far more divisive. 

A perhaps redundant post if a dislike button isn’t being considered but my vote would be against. 

[Guest oncnp]

42 minutes ago, JNC said:

I quite like seeing some of the more critical posts on here to give some balance - given critics will only review usually one opening night performance I’ve found opinions on here helpful in making decisions about what casts I might like to see. 

 

As do I. What I don't like is when the debate becomes critical of the poster not the post. A dislike button (and I don't think it's being considered) that would allow an impersonal difference of opinion would, in my opinion, be useful.  

 

I can't see that counting dislikes would discourage critical posts any more than some of the replies already do. 

 

Meanwhile, back at the Lake.......didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by oncnp

[Linnzi5]

As someone who is new to this forum, I like the honesty I see here. As someone who is not an expert on the technical aspects of ballet, I particularly have enjoyed reading about fouettés from people who do understand them (as well as other steps/moves).

 

If you were not thrilled by a performance then I think it is appropriate to say so, as long as you are polite, surely? I have been a member of a forum before (not for ballet) and I understand all about necessary rules. However, I learnt a long time ago not to take things personally - if someone doesn't agree with my perspective, so what? I don't need someone else's approval to justify what I think or feel. As long as I am polite and respectful, then others should accept my opinion as being valid, as much as I would do the same to others - even if I wholeheartedly disagree with what is said. Then there would be healthy debate, I would hope. That is also freedom of speech and expression.  I would not want a dislike button as it would be open to abuse and  may cause bad feeling. The like button is saying, I think, 'good ideas/thoughts'. but not necessarily agreeing with all that is said?

 

Finbarr, thanks for your thoughts and opinions - I appreciate what you say and found it all very interesting to read. 

 

 

[Linnzi5]

I know this isn't correct place to ask, but I have searched for the answer to my problem and have been unable to find the answer. How do I edit my posts? I realised I have made several typos and would like to correct them here. I can't find an edit option? Sorry to derail thread. 😳

[bangorballetboy]

3 minutes ago, Linnzi5 said:

I know this isn't correct place to ask, but I have searched for the answer to my problem and have been unable to find the answer. How do I edit my posts? I realised I have made several typos and would like to correct them here. I can't find an edit option? Sorry to derail thread. 😳

 

Click on the three dots button (see pic) and there’s an edit option but it’s only available for 30 minutes after posting.

[Linnzi5]

8 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

Click on the three dots button (see pic) and there’s an edit option but it’s only available for 30 minutes after posting.

Thank you - this is why I can't see it, more than 30 minutes have expired. Never mind. I will have to live with my misspelling of principal!  

[Fonty]

Talking of technical things, I have a question about something I noticed while watching Cuthbertson and Bracewell in the cinema relay.   I noticed at one point that she was turning  with her arms in 4th position, with the arm above her head holding on to Bracewell's hand, and I was curious about the mechanics of it all.  If I recall correctly she did at least two, if not three complete turns.  I can see how it works when the female turns with her partner holding her waist, as he can shift his hands as she moves around.  However, I couldn't work out how it was done in that position when his hand appeared to be static.  

 

I hope an experienced pas de deux person can explain it to me!

 

 

 

[FionaM]

40 minutes ago, Fonty said:

Talking of technical things, I have a question about something I noticed while watching Cuthbertson and Bracewell in the cinema relay.   I noticed at one point that she was turning  with her arms in 4th position, with the arm above her head holding on to Bracewell's hand, and I was curious about the mechanics of it all.  If I recall correctly she did at least two, if not three complete turns.  I can see how it works when the female turns with her partner holding her waist, as he can shift his hands as she moves around.  However, I couldn't work out how it was done in that position when his hand appeared to be static.  

 

I hope an experienced pas de deux person can explain it to me!

 

 

 

It’s the movement of her leg from front to second and into the knee that is making the turn in this supported pirouette.  Her hand above her head is actually only supported by his index finger inside her hand (shaped like a loose fist) which she rotates around.  Therefore the male dancer is only supporting the vertical position.  It’s the ballerina who makes the turn happen.  
 

if I am identifying correctly the moment you ask about  ..  it is near the end of Act 2 where Odette does first a slow single turn, followed by a double and a triple with supported turns inbetween with a leg extension to second and the very fast rapid beats of the foot against the turning foot  (petit battement battu or serre ) all the while remaining en pointe on the left leg

Edited May 22, 2022 by FionaE
Insert the French name

[Pas de Quatre]

This beating movement, the toe of the lifted arched foot against the heel of the supporting foot is known as battements serré or suivi. The movement of the leg to give impetus for the turn is simply a fouetté of which there are many different sorts and overall these are called "finger turns" as the ballerina holds onto the middle finger of her Prince. A bit like hanging onto the overhead strap in the tube!

[FionaM]

Thanks for the correction @Pas de Quatreit is indeed the middle finger

[Fonty]

Thanks @FionaE@Pas de QuatreThat was indeed the moment I was talking about in Act 2.  Very beautiful, and wonderfully executed by Cuthbertson.  Not something I would normally query, but the camera zoomed in at that moment, and the position of the hands looked very slightly awkward to my inexperienced eye.  I shall refrain from practising on the tube, but I might have a go in the kitchen when my partner gets home. 🙂

Edited May 22, 2022 by Fonty

[emmarose]

44 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

This beating movement, the toe of the lifted arched foot against the heel of the supporting foot is known as battements serré or suivi. The movement of the leg to give impetus for the turn is simply a fouetté of which there are many different sorts and overall these are called "finger turns" as the ballerina holds onto the middle finger of her Prince. A bit like hanging onto the overhead strap in the tube!

 

Just as an aside, this is one of my favourite pasts of the whole ballet.

[Jan McNulty]

12 hours ago, Finnbarr said:

The Sunday Times has a story in the early editions that William Bracewell and Reece Clarke have both been promoted to principal

 

A thread was started in news too.  I've moved the posts specifically about the promotions over to that thread to keep them all together.

 

Here it is:

 

 

[Scheherezade]

Thank you to Pas de Quatre and FionaE for your explanations and to Finnbarr for the news about Bracewell and Clarke. Is it too soon for congratulations?

 

As to a ‘dislike’ option, my view is that this would inevitably imply a criticism of the poster. By its very nature it would carry the suggestion of some level of impropriety in the way in which the post was expressed.
 

Unlike the current system, where diversity of opinion, politely expressed on a reasoned basis, is encouraged, the subliminal suggestion behind a dislike option would surely deter all but the thickest skinned from posting anything other than a glowing and wholly uncritical review. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Scheherezade

[Lizbie1]

5 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

Unlike the current system, where diversity of opinion, politely expressed on a reasoned basis, is encouraged, the subliminal suggestion behind a dislike option would surely deter all but the thickest skinned from posting anything other than a glowing and wholly uncritical review. 

 

I agree: if you disagree with something, say so and why!

 

I'm another who sometimes "likes" things I disagree with, because the poster has expressed themselves well or raised a valid point - or just to encourage minority opinions.

[art_enthusiast]

4 hours ago, Linnzi5 said:

If you were not thrilled by a performance then I think it is appropriate to say so, as long as you are polite, surely? As long as I am polite and respectful, then others should accept my opinion as being valid, as much as I would do the same to others - even if I wholeheartedly disagree with what is said. Then there would be healthy debate, I would hope. That is also freedom of speech and expression. 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. What would be the point of a forum at all, if everyone agreed with each other? I originally visited this forum for different perspectives and honest opinions that would help me improve my own critical thinking. I don't believe that politeness and respect necessitate agreeing with everyone, particularly in the art world where opinions can be largely subjective, and audience members react in different ways. Surely that's one of the main purposes of art in the first place - to incite different reactions, to educate people about different things and broaden their frame of reference.

With regards to Anna Rose O'Sullivan's performance, I was at the debut where she slipped. I do agree with @Finnbarr's point, it does break the 'spell' in a certain way, and you do start to worry about them as people, not the characters they are portraying - I felt the same way at Sarah Lamb's very small slip on Tuesday, which did not detract from the rest of her amazing performance but does jerk you out of the story slightly. You wonder if they are possibly ill or not feeling their best, or potentially now injured or unsettled - I know that dancers do perform ill or injured at times because they have no other choice, and I have huge respect for them for doing that. Also, I understand that as a consumer, you have paid a premium price for a performance experience that has been marketed as very high quality, by a company that is internationally renowned. Therefore, you will have certain expectations. That is entirely reasonable - especially if it's your first time seeing the ballet, as it also was for me.

But as people have said, the fouettés are a very small part of an extremely rich four act ballet and she was superb in every other respect. I also attended her later two performances with Steven McRae. I thought that she was very driven to have another chance to prove herself, and I saw her greatly improved, almost hitting the complete number of fouettés without a single pause before adding some pique turns to make up for the rest of the counts. I found her much more confident and relaxed in the role.

It just goes to show the importance of experience and how it can be extremely beneficial for a younger dancer to have more than one attempt a such a huge role - which is why I wish some of the other Odette/Odile debutantes had the chance to do additional shows as well.

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by art_enthusiast

[taxi4ballet]

My daughter trained professionally, and after a gap of several years of not dancing, she recently tried to do fouettes again. She told me that she'd forgotten how ridiculously difficult they are!

 

So maybe unless people are capable of doing 32 fouettes, perfectly, every time they attempt them, then perhaps they could refrain from criticising a professional's very occasional mishap in this department? It mars what has otherwise been a very interesting and informative thread.

[Jan McNulty]

57 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

Thank you to Pas de Quatre and FionaE for your explanations and to Finnbarr for the news about Bracewell and Clarke. Is it too soon for congratulations?

 

There is a separate thread about the promotions in News:

 

 

[annamk]

5 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

So maybe unless people are capable of doing 32 fouettes, perfectly, every time they attempt them, then perhaps they could refrain from criticising a professional's very occasional mishap in this department? It mars what has otherwise been a very interesting and informative thread.

 

What are you saying here ? I'm not capable of doing any of the things the dancers do on stage but I don't see why that means I should refrain from making any criticisms. 

[art_enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, annamk said:

 

What are you saying here ? I'm not capable of doing any of the things the dancers do on stage but I don't see why that means I should refrain from making any criticisms. 

Indeed. Food critics are not professional chefs, art/music critics are not artists or musicians, and dance critics are most commonly not dancers. Yet somehow they are paid to express their opinions.

I'm not sure why the rules should be different for experienced and knowledgeable ballet enthusiasts, as long as they express their views respectfully and constructively. 

[taxi4ballet]

43 minutes ago, annamk said:

 

What are you saying here ? I'm not capable of doing any of the things the dancers do on stage but I don't see why that means I should refrain from making any criticisms. 

One of the things my daughter said she didn't miss about the profession was constantly being judged all the time and found wanting. 

 

Dancers are not machines. Sometimes they have an off day. Sometimes they might be a fraction off balance for a second or two. Sometimes they might be in agony. One might say that Premiership footballers at the height of their profession should never miss a penalty, but they do. 

 

Respectfully pointing out a lapse in a performance is fine. Judgemental criticism of an elite professional... no.

[Pas de Quatre]

That is why live performances always have an extra edge. In particular with music recordings, any fluffed notes get electronically corrected, whether an instrument or operatic voice.

[zxDaveM]

1 hour ago, art_enthusiast said:

Indeed. Food critics are not professional chefs, art/music critics are not artists or musicians, and dance critics are most commonly not dancers. Yet somehow they are paid to express their opinions.

I'm not sure why the rules should be different for experienced and knowledgeable ballet enthusiasts, as long as they express their views respectfully and constructively. 

 

yes, it's the quality of the writing that counts; though saying that, a degree of knowledge about, rather than an ability to do, always counts for something - or all music critics would be ex-drummers (as the old joke goes)!

[annamk]

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

One of the things my daughter said she didn't miss about the profession was constantly being judged all the time and found wanting. 

 

Dancers are not machines. Sometimes they have an off day. Sometimes they might be a fraction off balance for a second or two. Sometimes they might be in agony. One might say that Premiership footballers at the height of their profession should never miss a penalty, but they do. 

 

Respectfully pointing out a lapse in a performance is fine. Judgemental criticism of an elite professional... no.

Everyone recognises that dancers can have an off day, I was simply replying to your first post which said

 

“perhaps they could refrain from criticising a professional's very occasional mishap”

 

An off day doesn’t mean one can’t or shouldn’t comment on a performance - if you can’t say one performance isn’t so good then what is the point of ever saying a dancer is good. Praise becomes pointless if criticism is invalidated.

[JNC]

I think it’s an odd standard to set that you should have to do something (and do it well) in order to criticise something. Otherwise this forum wouldn’t really exist! And it seems this only applies to negative criticism, and all positive feedback is correct and ok?
 

Dancers (and indeed anyone in any profession) have to be able to take (constructive) criticism - otherwise how would they improve and develop? I also don’t think it’s criticism to say that 32 fouettés (or whatever the example may be) weren’t done - that’s just a fact. 
 

I think we also all recognise that dancers are human and can make mistakes and slip or fall. And for me that’s part of what makes live performance so special - that yes there is a lot of hard work and talent preparation primarily, but also luck to what makes a performance, and that’s why you have the anticipation for each performance as you never know what might happen! If all dancers were machines and everything went perfectly and the same every time it would be rather boring wouldn’t it. 

[taxi4ballet]

32 minutes ago, annamk said:

Everyone recognises that dancers can have an off day, I was simply replying to your first post which said

 

“perhaps they could refrain from criticising a professional's very occasional mishap”

 

An off day doesn’t mean one can’t or shouldn’t comment on a performance - if you can’t say one performance isn’t so good then what is the point of ever saying a dancer is good. Praise becomes pointless if criticism is invalidated.

That's not really what I was saying. 

 

Commenting on a performance (or a specific element thereof) is fine. What is perhaps less welcome would be criticising the dancer themselves, whether they deserved their last promotion, whether they shouldn't have been given a role if they are incapable of performing one of the trickiest steps in the entire ballet repertoire, whether they are technically unsuited to a particular style, and so on. All of which I have seen on threads before.

 

Everyone dancing a more senior role will have had to perform it in front of an audience for the first time. Dancers in a debut role are going to be incredibly nervous. Nerves cause slip-ups. Calling their ability into question shows a fundamental lack of respect for their years of hard work and dedication to the art form.

[emmarose]

2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

My daughter trained professionally, and after a gap of several years of not dancing, she recently tried to do fouettes again. She told me that she'd forgotten how ridiculously difficult they are!

 

So maybe unless people are capable of doing 32 fouettes, perfectly, every time they attempt them, then perhaps they could refrain from criticising a professional's very occasional mishap in this department? It mars what has otherwise been a very interesting and informative thread.

 

But, there's a reason why those dancers are on the stage and everybody else isn't.

I used to dance, I know they are VERY hard, but I'm not a principal dancer at the royal ballet cast in a role that desires that skill set. 

I don't think people wish to go and pay such high prices (especially in these economic times) and feel they saw anything less than the best. 

People can be harsh critics, but at the same time maybe that dancer wasn't ready to take on the role if one of the key moments in the show wasn't up to standard, and there is a standard (no insult to Anna-Rose, I think she's a lovely dancer, this is just a general thought).

[emmarose]

11 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

That's not really what I was saying. 

 

Commenting on a performance (or a specific element thereof) is fine. What is perhaps less welcome would be criticising the dancer themselves, whether they deserved their last promotion, whether they shouldn't have been given a role if they are incapable of performing one of the trickiest steps in the entire ballet repertoire, whether they are technically unsuited to a particular style, and so on. All of which I have seen on threads before.

 

Everyone dancing a more senior role will have had to perform it in front of an audience for the first time. Dancers in a debut role are going to be incredibly nervous. Nerves cause slip-ups. Calling their ability into question shows a fundamental lack of respect for their years of hard work and dedication to the art form.

 

Surely this is more than fine as a talking point. Certain ballets were created for certain types of dancers, therefore other dancers are not naturally a good fit. 

There are certain roles where you just know a particular dancer will excel, take for instance Sissons, I knew he would be an amazing Benno. So it stands to reason that if some roles feel as if they were made for a dancer, some roles will not fit well on other dancers and I don't think it unfair to say.

[taxi4ballet]

33 minutes ago, emmarose said:

 

People can be harsh critics, but at the same time maybe that dancer wasn't ready to take on the role if one of the key moments in the show wasn't up to standard

 

As I already said, a momentary slip-up by someone in their debut performance does not give Joe Public (however much they paid for their tickets) the right to question that dancer's readiness for the role. They willl have danced that step perfectly thousands of times before. They will be kicking themselves that they fouled it up when it mattered the most.

 

There really is no need for audience members to criticise so much.

 

36 minutes ago, emmarose said:

 

There are certain roles where you just know a particular dancer will excel, take for instance Sissons, I knew he would be an amazing Benno. So it stands to reason that if some roles feel as if they were made for a dancer, some roles will not fit well on other dancers and I don't think it unfair to say.

 

It depends who's saying it. Some people are more qualified to comment than others, and constructive criticism is always welcome.

 

I've known Joe Sissens since he was 10 - my daughter danced with him at one time. He displayed phenomenal talent even then, and I've been following his progress ever since.

[art_enthusiast]

33 minutes ago, emmarose said:

 

Surely this is more than fine as a talking point. Certain ballets were created for certain types of dancers, therefore other dancers are not naturally a good fit. 

There are certain roles where you just know a particular dancer will excel, take for instance Sissons, I knew he would be an amazing Benno. So it stands to reason that if some roles feel as if they were made for a dancer, some roles will not fit well on other dancers and I don't think it unfair to say.

That's very true.

I was admittedly slightly underwhelmed by Francesca Hayward's Odette/Odile. But I am well aware that she's obviously an amazing dancer, with extremely strong artistry and dramatic qualities and her Ashtonian ability is known as one of her great strengths. I saw her in Rhapsody twice in April and was completely spellbound by her performance. I remember thinking that the role appeared to be made for her, she appeared to be so much more confident.
Not saying she isn't made for Odette/Odile as well - just that more experience with the role will make her more confident in it. If a dancer doesn't excel in the role now, they most likely will in the future.