Sim Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Still - in ALL - I'm glad she is a guest and very much hope that the last two Odettes to Muntigriov's Seigfried.... [/quote According to the ROH website she is only down to dance with him once, on March 26th. His April 2nd and 9th performances still have TBA next to his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I have seen several SL's this run and what really strikes me is that the dancers who do stand out dancing in Neapolitan, Spanish, Czardas and the Mazurka are the ones who have the RBS background. I have seen Paul Kay and Yasmine Naghdi / James Hay and Francesca Hayward/ and Emma Maguire in "Neapolitan" and they were all a tremendous joy to watch, in "Spanish" I liked Claire Calvert the most. From a young age they learn character dances at the RBS something I think dancers who have trained abroad have not learned, and it often shows. Isn't this precisely why we have a national school? Not for this thread but isn't this what gives the company its style and makes dancers coming from elsewhere look slightly out of kilter? This is the reason I am not a fan of Osipova - she is a superb dancer but her style jars with the rest of the company. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Still - in ALL - I'm glad she is a guest and very much hope that the last two Odettes to Muntigriov's Seigfried.... [/quote According to the ROH website she is only down to dance with him once, on March 26th. His April 2nd and 9th performances still have TBA next to his name. Bless you, Sim. That's exactly why I referenced the 'last two' of Muntigirov's performances, knowing that Ms. Salenko would now be honouring his first showing in this production's final run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPD444 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 "There's a picture on Twitter of the poor girls' feet! They deserve their well earned break" Meaghan has also tweeted a picture of her and a fellow swan "resting" across what appears to be a bar in a state of collapse with the hash tag "not allowed to sit down". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yes, it's hard for them as it is for the corps at companies such as ENB and BRB who perform many consecutive performances of Swan Lake, Nutcracker etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankH Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Isn't this precisely why we have a national school? Not for this thread but isn't this what gives the company its style and makes dancers coming from elsewhere look slightly out of kilter? This is the reason I am not a fan of Osipova - she is a superb dancer but her style jars with the rest of the company. I am not a fan of Osipova. Before I became a really committed fan of ballet only a few months ago, I hadn't even heard of her. Whether or not "her style jars with the rest of the company" is something I am not qualified to judge. All I know is that I was totally convinced by the filmed performance of Swan Lake - and if there was anything "jarring" about the relationship between Osipova and the rest of the company, I didn't notice it, and neither clearly did what appears to be the great majority of those who saw it around the world - leading to the massive number of favourable comments, and the request for a DVD. Of course the great majority of those who have commented so favourably on the Osipova/Goulding et al performance on March 17, will be as naive and ignorant about ballet as myself. And I do not criticise those more knowledgeable fans - such as I believe make up the majority of those on this forum - who are probably frustrated that people such as myself cannot see flaws in dancers/performances/productions which they so clearly can see. But on the other hand, it is amongst these sort of people that lies the potential for a future increase in the numbers of those who love ballet as an art form. As for dancers from outside the UK looking "out of kilter", there are numbers of these dancers in all the major British ballet companies. Is what Ribbons says actually correct? If so, then I find it intensely depressing, as it will only fuel the increasing "UKIP*" tendency in this country - a country which has been my home for nearly 70 years, and which I love intensely. And will further encourage the use of the word "foreign" as an implied insult/criticism. And to be taken as such, even if not meant. *[Apologies to any offended UKIP supporters - there are xenophobes and racists in all the major party, and one of the UKIP MPs, Douglas Carswell, has actually been one of the most enlightened and compassionate MPs on the vexed subject of immigration] Edited March 22, 2015 by FrankH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Reading ribbons post, I don't think she meant anything about race. I think she meant style of training. I have been surrounded by ballet my whole life but I am more of a doer than a watcher and would watch endless classes and rehearsals over performances, as I like the process more, and the human endeavour ( dont get me wrong, I love a great performance) but I really don't see that great dancing has anything whatsoever to do with race and I doubt most ballet fans do either. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I would like to say that I find overtly political comments in posts about ballet highly inappropriate. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 As for dancers from outside the UK looking "out of kilter", there are numbers of these dancers in all the major British ballet companies. Is what Ribbons says actually correct? If so, then I find it intensely depressing, as it will only fuel the increasing "UKIP*" tendency in this country - a country which has been my home for nearly 70 years, and which I love intensely. And will further encourage the use of the word "foreign" as an implied insult/criticism. And to be taken as such, even if not meant. No, I don't think that is the case at all Frank. It can just take time for a new dancer to "get" the style of the company they have joined, especially if they have previously been with another company. I have seen this with dancers who have moved between UK companies just as much as people coming from abroad. There is a dancer at BRB who joined from a school in America, which taught Vaganova style. Yes he did look different when he first joined but now, as a friend has mentioned on several occasions and I agree with him, he looks more British than the British! Ribbons, I think, is talking about RBS and RB (and possibly to a certain extent BRB). The other major companies in this country all have their own style too and perhaps have a more varied intake of dancers at the start of their careers. Of course the great majority of those who have commented so favourably on the Osipova/Goulding et al performance on March 17, will be as naive and ignorant about ballet as myself. And I do not criticise those more knowledgeable fans - such as I believe make up the majority of those on this forum - who are probably frustrated that people such as myself cannot see flaws in dancers/performances/productions which they so clearly can see. But on the other hand, it is amongst these sort of people that lies the potential for a future increase in the numbers of those who love ballet as an art form. Watching dance is very subjective Frank and people see things very differently whether it is the first time they have seen something or they have been going to the ballet for 30 years (me) or as long as the venerable Clement Crisp. And whether they have danced themselves or not. I saw a matinee of Northern Ballet's Cinderella in it's opening week in Leeds. It just so happened that some national critics were at that performance. One of the critics found the performance of the Prince bland (paraphrasing) but I thought it was one of the most intense and emotional performances I had seen all year. A friend who has a dance background often sees dancers differently to the way I see them. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankH Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) May I apologise to anyone offended by my last post? No, Harwel, I didn't think Ribbons meant anything about "Race". It certainly couldn't apply to anything about Osipova. However I still did find the implication that dancers from elsewhere must be somewhat "out of kilter" puzzling. Thanks to Janet and others for putting me right on what Ribbons actually meant, and apologies to Ribbons for my misunderstanding. As for "overtly political" being out of place, I would generally agree with MAB. However as the comment by Ribbons seemed to me (wrongly) to be about "foreigners" in ballet, it inevitably became linked in my rather feeble mind with the question of the furore about immigration, which is sadly part of the political scene at the moment. Not of course that I thought Ribbons was talking about immigration, but just that the general atmosphere in the country with the impending general election, can make anything about "foreigners" anywhere somewhat controversial. I tried to be as "unpolitical" as possible, by making my apology to UKIP supporters. In general, I get the impression that ballet-lovers are amongst the most enlightened and compassionate members of society, and I certainly get that impression about the posters on this forum.And amongst the most literate and well-informed as well. Edited March 22, 2015 by FrankH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 To my completely unpolitical mind, UKIP, foreignness and race all belong on the same page and have no bearing on ballet performance - imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENBlover Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Back to ballet, we are lucky to have Osipova. Jarring is good - it means challenging, growing, changing. This is what art is meant to do. If you want things to always be the same, you probably want entertainment, comfort and familiarity. There nothing wrong with that either. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Q Fan Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm afraid I don't really see major differences in style across companies maybe its my untrained eye and the fact I am too wrapped up in the story and foot work to notice! At the end of the day we are all individuals and all see things our own way. Interesting debate though. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl H Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Back to ballet, we are lucky to have Osipova. Jarring is good - it means challenging, growing, changing. This is what art is meant to do. If you want things to always be the same, you probably want entertainment, comfort and familiarity. There nothing wrong with that either. At home I like to be surrounded by comfort and familiarity, but with ballet I like to be challenged, the more styles I see the better, one of the things that fascinates me with ballet is that you can take even a short classical solo, and every dancer makes it look different! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmie Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Has anybody been to the pre-performance talk for Swan Lake in the Clore Studio - can you tell me what sort of things are covered, and is it just 'talk' or are there demonstrations like the ones seen on you tube. Thanks. I'm thinking of making it a swan based day on the 9/4 with the Swanhunter opera thingy in the Linbury at lunchtime, then the talk and then Swan Lake with TBA (!) and Muntagirov dancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Frank H your comments on my post are shocking. Even for someone new to ballet, it is unbelievable that you have linked my comments to UKIP, something I find utterly offensive. My post clearly talks about schools and systems of training and company style and I do not know how on earth you could have interpreted it the way you did. Edited to say that I would be grateful if moderators could remove both of Frank H's posts and this one. Edited March 22, 2015 by Ribbons 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Frank H your comments on my post are shocking. Even for someone new to ballet, it is unbelievable that you have linked my comments to UKIP, something I find utterly offensive. My post clearly talks about schools and systems of training and company style and I do not know how on earth you could have interpreted it the way you did. Edited to say that I would be grateful if moderators could remove both of Frank H's posts and this one. You are not alone. Mr Frank H. also shocked me a while ago by totally misinterpreting my words, making a big issue out of something that was not my point at all, and making me look racist along the way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankH Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Frank H your comments on my post are shocking. Even for someone new to ballet, it is unbelievable that you have linked my comments to UKIP, something I find utterly offensive. My post clearly talks about schools and systems of training and company style and I do not know how on earth you could have interpreted it the way you did. Edited to say that I would be grateful if moderators could remove both of Frank H's posts and this one. Please read my apology above. It gives a reason, not an excuse. And in hindsight, I believe that while my reaction was not entirely unreasonable, it was in the context, certainly inexcusable. Edited March 22, 2015 by FrankH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankH Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) You are not alone. Mr Frank H. also shocked me a while ago by totally misinterpreting my words, making a big issue out of something that was not my point at all, and making me look racist along the way. If I haven't apologised adequately before, I certainly want to do so now. I believe that I did post that I might be being paranoid. Perhaps the sense that the impending elections are bringing all sorts of issues out - which I, as an "immigrant" feel deeply - have made me feel that there are many people in this country who don't really want any of us here. But I shouldn't have brought yourself, and Ribbons, into it. Again, there was a reason for my reply - but no excuse for it. It all teaches me not to post when, for reasons not connected to the forum, I am a little "wound up". Edited March 22, 2015 by FrankH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Dear Mr Frank H., please understand that this is a Ballet Forum and we do not discuss politics, elections, immigrant policies, race issues, etc... on here. I am sorry you feel bad re.the upcoming elections but there are certainly Forums out there to discuss those issues, and yes you acknowledged previously you overreacted. Now back to "Swan Lake" please. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Just returned from the encore screening of the live performance. So much to praise. Starting with some of the finer nuances which really come into their own when you get closer shots of the performance. Loved Elizabeth McGorian's look of utter diisdain towards Benno during her entrance in Act 1 as if to say " You are to blame for my son"s carefree approach to his royal duties." Then there was Gary Avis in character during the applause for Matthew Golding's solo in Act 3 - he could only sneer at the reception to Prince Siegfried's dancing, but was all animation once his daughter began her solo. Natalia danced beautifully - could only echo what one member of the audience had tweeted " she fizzed through those fouettes.". I think I found her dancing at its most moving during Act 4, again partly due to being able to see so closely the account of the betrayal and her subsequent forgiveness of Siegfried. I thought the corps were pretty hot throughout, but I was particularly mesmerised by their unity in Act 4. I share other people's view of Matthew Golding in that he is a true danseur noble, ideally suited to this part, and his partnering of Natalia was exemplary. As for the production itself, I have always found it magical and whenever I see Act 3 I feel I am indulging in a particularly rich fruit cake- the costumes are beautiful with their jewel colours and I love the setting with the clever mirror reflections. The orchestra were on form too and the interviews in the intervals offered a lovely surprise with Cynthia Harvey and Johnathan Cope. All in all what a wonderful way to spend a Sunday afternoon ( and I say that even though it was brilliant sunshine outside). One last minor thing to mention entering in the discussion about costumes. I have always been intrigued that in any production of Swan Lake I have seen, the 6 princesses wear identical costumes - is this to suggest their blandness in Siegfried's eyes? Otherwise it would surely be the case that they shouldn't be dressed as sextuplets! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankH Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Dear Mr Frank H., please understand that this is a Ballet Forum and we do not discuss politics, elections, immigrant policies, race issues, etc... on here. I am sorry you feel bad re.the upcoming elections but there are certainly Forums out there to discuss those issues, and yes you acknowledged previously you overreacted. Now back to "Swan Lake" please. Dear Nina G. Many thanks for your generous reply. There's nothing I'd like better than to get back to "Swan Lake". An added reason for my silly and offensive reaction to Ribbons is that I realise that I might be becoming a "fan" of Natalia Osipova. From "I've never heard of her" to "she can do no wrong" - another stupid response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I was also quite upset when people misinterpreted my remarks yesterday. I find it rather depressing that someone cannot use the word "foreign", as in the sense of unfamiliar, without having to deal with insults that suggest that they are racist, xenophobic, or whatever. Could people please read what the poster is actually saying, rather than leap to conclusions based on the use of certain words. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbfisher Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Odyssey mentions Gary Avis in post 252 above - I noticed his disdain (in character, of course!) , and I also felt that his splendid acting during the whole of the Act 3 pas de deux in a way made it into a pas de trois! I never been aware of a Rothbart so effective and so scarily involved in the steering of Odile. Quite marvellous! He really is one of the Greats! Edited March 22, 2015 by simonbfisher 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Dear Nina G. Many thanks for your generous reply. There's nothing I'd like better than to get back to "Swan Lake". An added reason for my silly and offensive reaction to Ribbons is that I realise that I might be becoming a "fan" of Natalia Osipova. From "I've never heard of her" to "she can do no wrong" - another stupid response. You'll be in good company, Frank; I suspect that Osipova's fouettés alone may have converted a fair few people - myself included. I will be putting the blu-ray of her Swan Lake on my birthday list. :-) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terpsichore Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I have just watched the recording of last Tuesday's HDTV transmission of Swan Lake from Covent Garden and enjoyed it thoroughly. Excellent dancing of course but also a good presentation. In the past I have compared transmissions from the Royal Opera House unfavourably with Pathe Live's from Moscow but this was good. I particularly enjoyed the interviews with Anthony Dowell, Jonathan Cope and Cynthia Harvey and learned something. I watched the recording in Huddersfield and felt a jolt of pride when the credits mentioned the additional choreography by David Bintley. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Salenko and McRae were beautiful this afternoon in the 999th performance of Swan Lake. Some of the corps work was much better in the cinema relay. Stand out for me was Neapolitan dance by Francesca Hayward and James Hay they were lovely together. Salenko whipped through her fouettes no problem giving more than 32 I reckon. She and Steven are great together. The swans were very good. Enjoyed it. I agree Don Q fan, my husband and I very much enjoyed it too. Salenko seemed very assured for a debut in the role with the RB and she cannot have had much time to rehearse with McRea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 You'll be in good company, Frank; I suspect that Osipova's fouettés alone may have converted a fair few people - myself included. I will be putting the blu-ray of her Swan Lake on my birthday list. :-) Spanner as a moderator I do not understand how you can let political and offensive comments go by with no comment, even apparently endorsing them with your cheery response to the poster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Spanner as a moderator I do not understand how you can let political and offensive comments go by with no comment, even apparently endorsing them with your cheery response to the poster.Actually this thread is currently being discussed by the Committee. My "cheery" response was to Frank H's comment in a later - nonpolitical - post that he may be becoming a fan of Osipova. I or another Moderator will take any appropriate action on previous posts once we have finished discussing the issue, but in the meantime Ribbons, I would appreciate it if you would remember that all Moderators and Committee Members are volunteers, and we are also entitled to post as ballet lovers and forum members. Edited for clarity. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankH Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Actually this thread is currently being discussed by the Committee. My "cheery" response was to Frank H's comment in a later - nonpolitical - post that he may be becoming a fan of Osipova. I or another Moderator will take any appropriate action on previous posts once we have finished discussing the issue, but please remember that all Moderators and Committee Members are volunteers, and we are also entitled to post as ballet lovers and forum members. I'd like nothing better than for my stupid response to Ribbons to be deleted, although they were in the context of other comments about the RB Swan Lake, and especially Natalia Osipova, which I stand by. If the post is deleted, then all other posts alluding to it, e.g. by Harwel, Nina G., etc. would also have to be deleted, as their whole context would be lost. I can only once again, apologise to Ribbons, and point out to her that the whole correspondence actually places her in a much better light than myself. If that apology is not enough, I can't think of anything else I can do. I must also apologise to spannerandpony and the other moderators for the trouble I have caused them. I promise to try and behave better in future, but if they want to "ban" me, then I fully understand, although I shall be sorry not to be able to discuss ballet with an extremely pleasant bunch of people. I must just take this opportunity to say how much I love spannerandpony's avatar! That's just about the sweetest dog's face I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Q Fan Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I can't believe people are still going on about the posts above can we get over this? It's an internet forum that's all. This is what happens on the internet - you can't see people or hear people so you cannot hear the intonation or stresses on words so sometimes misunderstandings happen. I feel FrankH is now being vilified despite numerous apologies. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 FrankH, I certainly don't think that you should be banned. You have apologised several times for any offence which you may have caused. I hope that you will keep posting. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Let's not be panicking about people being banned. :-) I think to stop things escalating further I will lock this thread for now until the Committee can discuss the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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