MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Surely the pirouettes TTP refers to are generally regarded as some kind of cadenza with leeway allowed. Osipova is by no means the only one to dance them like that. If memory serves me correctly Fonteyn used to do two - three - three - four. I don't believe there is a 'correct' way of doing them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billboyd Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Attended the last Osipova Aurora and the progression that I suggested in my earlier posting on this score might occur - certainly as it had in the case of her vivid depictons in Oneign and Month in the Country - majestically came to pass. I have come to believe that - as with Shakespeare - threes are very important to this fascinating artist. All of these hallmarks (i.e., her leading performances in the works referenced) were significantly marked in their third outing. Certainly this Aurora was a much more comfortably calibrated dramatic portrayal - rough edges having been smoothed without denting any of her character's enticing spontaneity - than in her first outing in this run. This etching now rightly sits (at least in my own experience - I can't speak based on anything else) aside those glorious Auroras of Semenyaka, Seymour, Kirkland, Peck and Kain. From the zealous exhuberance of sursprise of her cosseted 16 year old on the occasion of her birthday to the assured authority of a princess readied to take on her empowered mantle Osipova led her audience in the potentially thrilling telling of this story. The draining of life from her mind and body at the end of first act will long live with me ... as will the surging wave of her awakening and certainly her first variation in a newly restrained vision sequence which was - in every sense - world class mesmeric. Well said, Bruce. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 There is no need to be rude, Bill. Even if you disagree with the content of ToThePointe's post, there is no need to be rude. This is exactly why many people don't want to post on this forum, because they see exactly this kind of thing. And as a moderator, I can warn everyone now that we will not be putting up with a descent into the same vitriol as previous threads about this particular dancer. I have read many many posts on this thread with which I wholeheartedly disagree, but each poster with whom I disagree has given very good reasons and backup for their opinions. Just because I disagree with them, I would never dream of saying that their posts weren't well-argued. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billboyd Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Sim - I do not think I am being rude to say I disagree with what TTP says about Natalia Osipova. But, as you mention the word rude - I would say that much of TTP's posting is very rude in what she says about Natalia Osipova. In my opinion, of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToThePointe Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I don't think anything I said is a personal attack on Osipova and let me be the first to say that I think she is a wonderful talent. I could say a lot worse about what I thought of her Aurora but it wouldn't be appropriate and it would be too personal - something which I'm not interested in doing. All of my comments have related to her as a dancer, not a person so I'm not sure how this is rude. Is it really rude to voice an opinion about an artists performance? In regards to the pirouettes, I counted as I saw them and to me there were more than there should have been. Maybe I'm mistaken. If other dancers do this too then I haven't seen them in the role, and I can't comment on Margot as she is way before my time 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Bill, you are disagreeing with Capybara's statement that TTP wrote in a lucid manner, not with what TTP said. At least, that's how it comes across. And I don't see how saying that you don't like someone's performance is rude. TTP didn't like it, and gave her reasons. How is she being rude? Everyone on this forum knows that any slight criticism of Osipova is going to get a very defensive reaction from you no matter what it is she is dancing, but people who write about dance should see every performance as an entity in itself. Even Clement Crisp, who usually flies the flag for Russian dancers and for Osipova, was critical of certain aspects of her performance. I'm sorry, but no dancer is going to be right for every single role that he or she ever does, and the proper dance fan can see and understand that. I love Osipova's talent and dancing, but in certain things she doesn't do it for me, just like other dancers I love don't do it for me in certain roles. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 And now I've got the Rose Adagio stuck as an earworm. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Bill - why don't you write about Osipova's performance from your perspective? I would be very interested to read a substantive piece from you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Bill - why don't you write about Osipova's performance from your perspective? I would be very interested to read a substantive piece from you. Unless he has an exceptionally thick skin, I'd seriously advise him not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Dancer Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Other Auroras communicate more with those around them on stage, Naghdi, for example, acknowledges her friends and there is a rapport between them all. I didn't see much of this on Saturday night and to be honest I left the ROH feeling pretty bemused. No beheading from me .... I didn't go to see any of Osipova's performances. She's a lovely dancer but for SB I was more interested in the more junior dancers.... I'm happy to see that you also noticed the the rapport (or lack thereof) between Aurora and her friends.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 No beheading from me .... I didn't go to see any of Osipova's performances. She's a lovely dancer but for SB I was more interested in the more junior dancers.... I'm happy to see that you also noticed the the rapport (or lack thereof) between Aurora and her friends.. If you didn't go to any of her performances how did you 'also' notice a lack of rapport between Aurora and her friends? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Perhaps she noticed the rapport which another ballerina had with her friends. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 That's how I read it too....Jam Dancer is referring to that part of the ballet, where Aurora shows her pricked finger to her friends, and how she engages with them when they are onstage at any time that she is. Some dancers make it more obvious than others, that's all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Unless he has an exceptionally thick skin, I'd seriously advise him not to. Why? There are plenty of people on this thread who have praised Osipova's performances to the hilt, which is what I assume Bill would do. As far as I can see, no-one has been rude to anyone who has praised her Aurora, and rightly so. It is those who dare to levy any kind of criticism who get the rudeness and abrasive retorts, NOT those who praise Osipova. All you have to do is look back over the thread and my words will be borne out. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 And now I've got the Rose Adagio stuck as an earworm. So have I!!! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Well I am most relieved to hear I'm not the only one with an earworm problem! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Sim - I do not think I am being rude to say I disagree with what TTP says about Natalia Osipova. But, as you mention the word rude - I would say that much of TTP's posting is very rude in what she says about Natalia Osipova. In my opinion, of course. With respect, Billboyd, I think anybody giving Osipova anything other than glowing praise would be seen as rude by you. It is clear you are a massive fan of hers, and there is nothing wrong with that. She is a huge talent, a dazzling star who does everything in her own unique way. However, speaking personally, I don't always care for her interpretations. I think she goes a bit over the top for my tastes in certain things. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate her, merely that I prefer the way other dancers approach those roles. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I have various snippets of SB music as ear worms; this always happens to me when I see a ballet multiple times. Soon it will be Mayerling ear worms, then the glorious Mendelssohn music of The Dream! So much better than the usual advertisement ear worms I usually get! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninamargaret Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Don't know which is worse _ an earworm that you can identify or one that you can't! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I went to an encore of the live screening this afternoon- it was wonderful to be in a large cinema with just a small group of quiet people and just revel in a fabulous performance from the whole cast. Having read through this thread I was able to look out for all sorts of details - so thank you everyone- that is what makes ballet forum so great. Just a few of those details: Anna Rose O'Sullivan's terrific stage presence The way the whole cast acted in role all the time in the background Carabosse mocking the fairies so brilliantly The wonderful costume of the Quenn and Elixabeth McGorian's so graceful and regal presence The way Claire Calvert radiated the Lilac fairy's goodness from her lovely face Alexander Campbell- such a fine dancer you could relax and know the fleet footwork would be there, and just enjoy the little characterful touches he put in- the way he carried his head- (and the rather fascinating combination of sequins, Liz taylor eye make-up and a hairy chest...) Vadim's lean lithe elegant jumps and soulful gaze and of course- Nunez's scintillating, joyous, amazingly skilful performance, with those perfect balances- especially the last one- and her dazzling smiles for her princes/her own prince; and their joy in the curtain calls. It wasn't 100% perfect- I wonder if we ever will see a really ideal Lilac fairy solo. Maybe that's one for Polunin :-) I have sadly not been able to see as many live shows as I had hoped, am intrigued by the different views of Osipova, wish so much I could have been there- and would be interested to hear more from those who did like her interpretation and why- (rather than spats and slaps!) 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (and the rather fascinating combination of sequins, Liz taylor eye make-up and a hairy chest...) Oh dear, sounds a bit Trocks-like 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Oh no he looked lovely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I think there is an element of us all noticing what we want to see. I posted a while back about how much I enjoyed Osipova's performance despite it being "wrong" in terms of the RB's classical approach to this ballet. But one thing I did notice from her performance by comparison with three other Auroras I have seen this run was her rapport with and the sheer animation of her friends, and indeed the rest of the court, as they watched her Act 1 performance. I though there was an attentiveness (as if they, like me, were fascinated by what on earth she would do next) that wasn't quite there in other performances. And as someone else said, Osipova was the only one who made me think of Aurora as a 'real' person. Again that may be totally wrong for the grand, Petipa style but it was exciting! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Ps. But incidentally I can understand why people may not have liked Osipova's performance and that, of course, is their right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) I have various snippets of SB music as ear worms; this always happens to me when I see a ballet multiple times. Soon it will be Mayerling ear worms, then the glorious Mendelssohn music of The Dream! So much better than the usual advertisement ear worms I usually get! I had 'Fille' bites in my ears for weeks after that last lovely run. Edited March 6, 2017 by Bruce Wall 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Q Fan Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I agree about Anna Rose O'Sullivan she's really blossomed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrhblack Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Just back from my cinema Encore performance in Rye. Of course, it's not the same as a live performance but I enjoyed enormously and anybody who feels ballet a superficial art would surely be won over by seeing at close quarters the sheer dedication of the performers involved. To quote / paraphrase Alistair Macaulay on La Fille Mal gardée, "the subject may seem slight, the treatment is anything but that." Lovely to see Dame Beryl in conversation too. This evening really brought home why The Sleeping Beauty is such a classic and so highly regarded: the combination of the choreography and the music is, at its best, probably unparalleled. I miss Ashton's Garland Dance (OK, not original) and his Saphhire SIster solo (likewise, but please bring it back) and think Aurora's Vision Scene Solo my favourite female solo of all (yes, it's not original, and yes, I have seen Raymonda, which is a close second). However, watching the Prologue unfurl, the build of the solos and ensembles during Act One, the magic of the Vision Scene and even the last act, with, for all its vagaries, the beauty of Bluebirds and the Final pas de deux, is to wonder anew at the genius of Petipa and Tchaikovsky in their shared vision. A lovely performance too. Marianela Nunez may be in HD a few years past the sunshine of sixteen summers but her technical command is absolute (although I'd rate Yasmine Naghdi in the Rose Adagio and Lauren Cuthbertson in the Vision Scene even higher) and Vadim Muntagirov is a stylish, eloquent Prince (although I felt Alexander Campbell even more moving in the Vision Scene pas de deux if not, inevitably, so long limbed in the solo). Mr Campbell was a dazzlingly stylish Bluebird (streets ahead of the two I saw in the theatre), although his partner's feet were cruelly exposed by the camera. Other highlights for me were Kirstin McNally's glamorously malevolent Carabosse, Cristina Arestis' Countess (she seems to have inherited Genesia Rosato's mantle of most stunning woman in the Royal Ballet) and Anna Rose O'Sulliovan's Prologue Fairy - there's somebody who knows how to use her eyes and inhabit the space. I still think there is room for a production that honours Tchaikovsky's musical pattern more in Act Two (I'm listening to Previn's recording as I write this) but thought tonight an evening more than well spent. Edited March 6, 2017 by Jamesrhblack 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billboyd Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 With respect, Billboyd, I think anybody giving Osipova anything other than glowing praise would be seen as rude by you. Not at all. Actors/dancers deliver different interpretations of roles. And it is perfectly acceptable to dislike interpretations - without insulting the performer and being rude. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Having also seen an encore yesterday James I can't believe you and I were watching the same Bluebird. Takada's feet looked to me precise, quick and beautiful. There was one small timing co-ordination glitch between her and Campbell (understandable as they were not scheduled to perform together so presumably had limited rehearsal) but I thought their coda in particular was by far the most 'tidy' I have seen all run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrhblack Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Having also seen an encore yesterday James I can't believe you and I were watching the same Bluebird. Takada's feet looked to me precise, quick and beautiful. There was one small timing co-ordination glitch between her and Campbell (understandable as they were not scheduled to perform together so presumably had limited rehearsal) but I thought their coda in particular was by far the most 'tidy' I have seen all run. Hi Lindsay, no quibbles over the speed of Ms Takada's feet, but their appearance seemed very ungainly in HD this evening, an impression initiated by the Prologue... Edited March 6, 2017 by Jamesrhblack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Not at all. Actors/dancers deliver different interpretations of roles. And it is perfectly acceptable to dislike interpretations - without insulting the performer and being rude.Bill, you don't seem to be able to separate the two. If anyone ever gives an even vaguely critical analysis of someone you like, you accuse them of being rude. I can't see that anyone on this thread has been rude to a performer. And as Capybara said, your own opinions and analysis would be welcome, instead of just accusing those who take the time to write of being rude because you don't agree with them. If the moderators had felt that anyone had been rude or personal about a performer we would have taken action, but none of us has perceived any rudeness from anyone on this thread towards a performer. Likewise no-one else has complained either. There is a difference between explaining why you dislike a performance and being rude. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billboyd Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Sim - We've had this discussion before. Clearly, my 'definition' of what is 'offensive' is not the same as balletcoforum moderators and some members. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 My goodness, what a lot of prickly reactions to Ms Osipova from both sides. I didn't see her Aurora so I can't comment. I have deliberately avoided booking to see her in anything strictly classical since her first Odette/Odile, both of which which disappointed me, although I have adored her Giselle since her first, stunning interpretation with the Bolshoi and I have also enjoyed her Lise and Natalia Petrovna (despite not being able to take my eyes off Frankie Hayward's Vera) and I think that it is an absolute tragedy that she and McRae are not repeating their dazzling Rubies performance. From my perspective, I can understand why the Bolshoi chose not to cast her in classical roles but find it a restriction too far to limited her castings to soubrette roles when she has so much to bring by way of both technique and interpretation. I would say that, on balance, I would expect more people on the forum to dislike Osipova's classical interpretations than to like them, although those in the 'like' camp are likely to be extremely fierce in their defence. I second those who find the scope for disagreement on the forum a natural and healthy response to any given performance. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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