Ballets that have aged badly

[Fonty]

16 hours ago, FLOSS said:

One thing that puzzles me is when and in what circumstances Ashton's ballets  began to be described as "twee" and to which of his ballets this label is to be applied? I don't recall this description being in circulation in the late eighties when MacMillan's ballets began to be promoted and the amount of stage time allocated to the Ashton repertory began to be reduced. I recall reading an article  by John Percival in which he reported that he had heard dancers being encouraged by colleagues to "camp up" the Ashton choreography which they had been learning. Did that lead to his works increasingly being thought of as "twee" and "silly"?

 

 

 

Maybe @zxDaveM could answer that?  I believe he referred to some twee one act Ashton ballets earlier on in the thread?  

 

I do find it a bit ironic that Dowell decided to get rid of much (if not all?) of Ashton's  choreography for the Sleeping Beauty when he commissioned a new one, given that he was such a wonderful performer of Ashton's work.  

[Vanartus]

2 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

 

Please could we have one more revival first because I'd really like to see it!

Stick with the film - nice scenery too!

[zxDaveM]

19 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

Maybe @zxDaveM could answer that?  I believe he referred to some twee one act Ashton ballets earlier on in the thread?  

 

 

Only a personal opinion of course, but:

Wedding Bouqet, Daphnis  & Chloe, parts of Sylvia's last act (though I do love that), some of the ghastly bits of Ondine (ie when Ondine not on stage), Beatrix Potter, are a few examples that instantly and vividly spring to mind

[AnneMarriott]

5 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I have a vague memory of a TV interview where Wayne Sleep was talking about the mask and costume problems.

I have a worryingly clear memory of Squirrel Nutkin nearly plunging into the orchestra pit a few feet away from where I was sitting, Stalls Circle right. I think Ashley Page was the squirrel.

[AnneMarriott]

22 minutes ago, zxDaveM said:

 

Only a personal opinion of course, but:

Wedding Bouqet, Daphnis  & Chloe, parts of Sylvia's last act (though I do love that), some of the ghastly bits of Ondine (ie when Ondine not on stage), Beatrix Potter, are a few examples that instantly and vividly spring to mind

Very much agree about some of these although I loved Wedding Bouquet.  I described Two Pigeons as embarrassingly twee (from start to finish for me) and have survived, which is a testament to the tolerance of different views by BalletcoForum readers.  I stick to my guns and don't book to see it.

[Jan McNulty]

Having seen, over the years, BRB perform Job, Rake's Progress, The Prospect Before Us and Checkmate the only keeper is Checkmate.

 

Job and The Prospect Before Us are of their time and more tableaus than ballet.  The Rake's Progress is awful - I don't like the story and I don't like the Hogarth paintings either!

 

Checkmate, especially with a good cast, is well worth reviving.

[MAB]

I think the score for Job is superb, but I'm resigned to the fact I'll never see it again. The music is massvely important to me, I'll sit through 19th century rubbish music for the choreography and the dancers, but if I never saw Corsair, bayaderka or Don Q again I could live with that but not ballets to scores of genius, e.g. Stravinsky, Ravel.

[AnneL]

14 hours ago, MAB said:

I think the score for Job is superb, but I'm resigned to the fact I'll never see it again. The music is massvely important to me, I'll sit through 19th century rubbish music for the choreography and the dancers, but if I never saw Corsair, bayaderka or Don Q again I could live with that but not ballets to scores of genius, e.g. Stravinsky, Ravel.

I agree 100%. Music is crucial. I have never seen Job but I love the score. Perhaps if the old choreography is dated a contemporary choreographer could use it? Or would that be prohibited? 
Music is the reason that Firebird is a favourite of mine and why I would like to see Daphnis and Chloe again. If the ballets are lost to the rep then the danger is that the music is neglected too (unlikely perhaps for the Firebird). I know it can be played in concerts, but a ballet score needs to be used for its real purpose at least sometimes. There is a rich 20th century musical repertoire  which was created for the burgeoning ballet scene of its day and it needs a chance to live. 

[Fonty]

As has been mentioned earlier, once a ballet gets a reputation for being "twee", then I think the dancers themselves start to lose faith in it and begin to dance without real conviction.  A lot of Ashton was created for specific dancers.  I know that Two Pigeons was created for Lynn Seymour, and from what I have read about her, twee was the last word to describe her.  Yet when I saw it, a lot of the dancers seemed to be too ladylike, too balletic?  They didn't give the Girl a genuine personality.  They were trying hard, but they just didn't get it quite right.  I would have loved to see what Morera could have done with the role.  I suspect she would have made her into a proper feisty character.  

 

I was also disappointed with Birthday Offering.  Originally the choreography was created to enhance each dancer's specific talents.  The production I saw  had a cast of principals, but the only difference between them all was the colour of their costumes.   It just looked a bit dull as a result.  

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Fonty

[Ian Macmillan]

Earlier this morning, BBC Radio 3 was investigating recordings of Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin, apparently a 'Pantomime Ballet' first put on in Cologne in 1926.  In some 13 years of doing Links I can't recall seeing it mentioned anywhere, and I submit it as a prime candidate for 'having aged badly.'  Is it in any company's current rep?  (A very noisy score in places, it seems.)

 

 

 

[Jane S]

Maurice Bejart's 1992 version was probably the best known but it hasn't been done in the last 10 years or so - details here including some video.

 

There were earlier versions - Todd Bolender's, Flemming Flindt's - and Alfred Rodrigues  made one for the RB in 1956, with Michael Somes in the leading role.  The new Somes book says that at the first London performance 'a stunned silence lasted for several curtain calls before the applause mingled with hisses began'. (Can this really be true? - must have seemed very strange for the dancers.) Daily Mail readers thought it 'more suitable for Soho, not a Royal Opera House'.) It only lasted 10 performances.

 

Scenario inlcuded in this account,

 

(Absolutely nothing to do with this but 2 things that amused me when checking Dance and Dancers account of the RB version - the opposite page has an article on the British dance scene by 'David Vaughan, a young dancer and choreographer', and in the next issue, covering the Bolshoi's first appearance in London, they quote this from The Times's personal column: Bolshoi - Single ticket wanted, swap two good tickets  Liberace.)

 

 

[Fonty]

Well, I have to say that the Miraculous Mandarin looks a heck of a lot more exciting than some other modern works I have seen.  

Bela Bartok.  Ah yes.  When I did music exams on the piano, there were two compulsory pieces, and a choice of 2 (?) for the third piece.  One of the choices was always by Bartok.   I, along with everyone else I know, chose the other one every time.  

[Pas de Quatre]

I am pretty sure there was a BRB version touring some 20-25 years ago, but I will have to see if I can find the programme. It was a fabulous dramatic dance work. Yes a glorious noisy score at times. I have used extracts for my own choreography. 

[Ian Macmillan]

Jane: Many thanks for that scenario link.  It makes Judas Tree seem a tad pale by comparison.  I see from "The Royal Ballet, The First 50 Years" that the first RB performance was at the Edinburgh Festival in August 1956, and that there were 10 performances in all, with no sign of any in later years.  It is summarised as 'unsatisfactory,' with "Somes miscast as the sinister but pathetic central figure."  So, whatever has happened elsewhere, it didn't last long enough with the RB to age at all!   (It doesn't figure in the Rep for the Touring Company back then, but I guess BRB may have had a go with it in later years.)

[maryrosesatonapin]

On 27/11/2023 at 14:32, bridiem said:

 

Matthew Bourne completely rewrote the scenario of Swan Lake, re-choreographed and created a male swan character. He didn't create a male Odette.

Yes, I know - as I said, I saw it.  And have seen it several times since.

[alison]

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

Well, I
Bela Bartok.  Ah yes.  When I did music exams on the piano, there were two compulsory pieces, and a choice of 2 (?) for the third piece.  One of the choices was always by Bartok.   I, along with everyone else I know, chose the other one every time.  

 

Ugh. My grade 5, I think, had his Round Dance. Bo-o-o-ring. It turned up again in some piece by Wheeldon, I think.

[Fonty]

15 hours ago, alison said:

 

Ugh. My grade 5, I think, had his Round Dance. Bo-o-o-ring. It turned up again in some piece by Wheeldon, I think.

 

You don't mean to say you actually played it, Alison?  They were horrible pieces, and I don't know why they were always included.

[Tango Dancer]

5 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

You don't mean to say you actually played it, Alison?  They were horrible pieces, and I don't know why they were always included.

Bartok is generally awful as I've yet to hear anything of his I've actually liked.  I went to his opera of Bluebeard as a concert performance and it was really boring and went on far too long. Never again!

[Lizbie1]

Very interesting to read the Bartok scepticism as he's one of those composers I like more in theory than in practice. (And here I'll own up to not liking Stravinsky in either theory or practice - IMO, the more he's "borrowing" from other styles, composers or sources, the better his music.)

[alison]

6 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

You don't mean to say you actually played it, Alison?  They were horrible pieces, and I don't know why they were always included.

 

I did ☹️

[Pas de Quatre]

As well as seeing the ballet, I have also been to a concert with Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra playing The Miraculous Mandarin. It was thrilling and I loved it!

[Sophoife]

Australian piano exams in my youth had from approx grade four (AMEB syllabus) four "guided choice" pieces (i.e. choose one piece from each of these four lists), and they were roughly divided into Bach And His Mates, Mozart Et Al, Beethoven To Chopin Stopping Off At Liszt, and Twentieth Century.

 

I met and immersed myself in the 48 that way, discovered Mozart added far too many acciaccaturas and appoggiaturas for my (ill-practised) fingers, and fell in love with 19th and 20th century piano repertoire.

 

We also had scales, sight reading and an "aural" section, where the examiner played notes, chords and phrases for us to identify (phrases we had to say the key).

[Geoff]

On 01/12/2023 at 18:44, Fonty said:

As has been mentioned earlier, once a ballet gets a reputation for being "twee", then I think the dancers themselves start to lose faith in it and begin to dance without real conviction.  A lot of Ashton was created for specific dancers.  I know that Two Pigeons was created for Lynn Seymour, and from what I have read about her, twee was the last word to describe her. 

As has been discussed on the Forum in the past Two Pigeons is known to be autobiographical, or at least inspired by important events in Ashton’s personal life. A little more attention to the history of the work and what it is really all about - and “twee” disappears.

But I would not be the first to observe that Royal Ballet “traditions” do not always serve works well. Performing tradition is passed on from person to person, but that risks a mechanical process leading to institutional forgetting, when some in the chain have not the faintest understanding of what is going on or may have once known but have long forgotten everything except the steps. 

[Fonty]

9 minutes ago, Geoff said:

As has been discussed on the Forum in the past Two Pigeons is known to be autobiographical, or at least inspired by important events in Ashton’s personal life. A little more attention to the history of the work and what it is really all about - and “twee” disappears.

 

 

@Geoff  If I knew that, I have forgotten.  I have done a quick search, but there are so many posts about the ballet, it might take me a long time to find the answer.  Could you tell me what the incidents were, please?  

[Suffolkgal]

Re the music comments - in Alan Bennett’s the history Boys is there not a line advising a would be oxbridge candidate not to say they like Mozart? (Everybody does!) and suggesting Bartok instead?! It’s going to take a very special dancer to get me to sit through different drummer again! It’s one of Schoenberg’s most agreeable pieces of music but I never took to the piece even with best beloved mr eagling!

[alison]

2 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

@Geoff  If I knew that, I have forgotten.  I have done a quick search, but there are so many posts about the ballet, it might take me a long time to find the answer.  Could you tell me what the incidents were, please?  

 

I know that Ashton said that the woman in his ballets was often him (or words to that effect), so I assume this would be a reference to someone who abandoned him but later returned?

[Sim]

1 hour ago, Suffolkgal said:

Re the music comments - in Alan Bennett’s the history Boys is there not a line advising a would be oxbridge candidate not to say they like Mozart? (Everybody does!) and suggesting Bartok instead?! It’s going to take a very special dancer to get me to sit through different drummer again! It’s one of Schoenberg’s most agreeable pieces of music but I never took to the piece even with best beloved mr eagling!

I never liked it and I don't like the music either.  However, last time I saw it it was with Thiago Soares and he turned me completely.  I will be interested to see what I think this time around.  

[alison]

Soares was dancing a secondary role in it, not the lead.

[Blossom]

Slight diversion to ballets with are not considered palatable these days- Bayadère, Corsaire, potentially Fille, I found this sign at the Duke of York theatre tonight quite interesting…

“This play is set in 1979 and consequently reflects some of the attitudes, language and conventions of the time”.

 

Unfortunately cant work out how to shrink a photo file size on my phone…

[Jan McNulty]

6 hours ago, Blossom said:

Slight diversion to ballets with are not considered palatable these days- Bayadère, Corsaire, potentially Fille, I found this sign at the Duke of York theatre tonight quite interesting…

“This play is set in 1979 and consequently reflects some of the attitudes, language and conventions of the time”.

 

Unfortunately cant work out how to shrink a photo file size on my phone…

I usually email them to myself selecting size medium or small.

[DVDfan]

Personally, I find that things made in the 2020s reflect attitudes, conventions and language of the time as well.

 

 

[Blossom]

3 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

I usually email them to myself selecting size medium or small.

Thanks Janet!

[Fonty]

I am trying to think what attitudes, language and conventions were so controversial at the time that they need a warning sign outside.  Are theatres doing this for everything now?  I would imagine some of Shakespeare's works might be pretty alarming to the modern generation.