Ballets that have aged badly

[CHazell2]

Hi everybody

 

I was thinking today about how certain ballets seem to be out of favour with today's audiences, I was just wondering what you all thought about what sort of ballets ought to be performed or should be regarded as out of date.

 

I would like to start with Le Corsaire - first of all, I ought to say that I don't know Le Corsaire that well. I do love the Jardin anime scene though. It is splendid in the reconstructed Bolshoi version - which is my favourite version as the storyline makes sense. But I can see how modern audiences can find it a bit difficult to contend with, with themes of white slavery - but the thing is, this kind of thing did happen in North Africa, it wasn't just black people who were enslaved. 

 

I think that it is one of those ballets that ages rather badly, but it does depend on the context. If one sees it in the spirit of a swashbuckling old Hollywood film, then it is very enjoyable. However, we shouldn't rewrite History just because it does not reflect our modern attitudes. 

 

The Past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.  

 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this subject as I think that we need to discuss it. 

 

P.S. I do apologise if this topic has already been on the Forum and I am sorry if I have given offence to people?

Edited November 24, 2023 by CHazell2

[Pas de Quatre]

Sadly people trafficking and modern slavery still exists in many parts of the world. 

[CHazell2]

Just now, Pas de Quatre said:

Sadly people trafficking and modern slavery still exists in many parts of the world. 

Yeah, I know. Sad state of things.

[Ondine]

11 minutes ago, CHazell2 said:

I was thinking today about how certain ballets seem to be out of favour with today's audiences, I was just wondering what you all thought about what sort of ballets ought to be performed or should be regarded as out of date.

 

How odd. I was just thinking about this, then I saw this post. We did recently mention Checkmate (deemed simply old fashioned?) and Pineapple Poll.  Not sure exactly what a 'bumboat woman' is and I'm afraid to Google that one. 

 

Alain in Fille is a recurring subject of discussions, though a man dressed as a woman giving a good spanking to 'her' almost adult daughter could also be a sticking point.

 

Certain things have been altered at the Royal Ballet, Nutcracker Chinese and Arabian dances (I loved the old one, I could smell the coffee) and the 'negro' servant (see old programmes) who carries the cushion in Cinderella is now not listed as such.

 

 I think the Bolshoi last I heard was resisting removing those 'blackface' kids it's so fond of in a couple of ballets. They do come as a shock the first time you see them.

 

https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/35945-blackface-in-bolshois-the-pharaohs-daughter/

 

Yes, in fact it is a serious issue.   I know some companies have been looking into this. The more you think about certain ballets the more you appreciate how 'incorrect' certain aspects are. Yet it would be sad to lose them. Do we drop anything with a 'national' dance? That's a huge chunk of the repertoire!

 

Then there is the issue of 'female' and 'male' steps, shoes and syllabi.

 

https://www.istd.org/discover/news/ballet-without-restrictions/

 

Extract (it's all worth reading)

 

In 2018, Chase Johnsey made headlines performing a typically female role for a major ballet company, English National Ballet, as one of the ladies in the Prince’s court in The Sleeping Beauty.  When questioned about why he’d want to dance as a ballerina, Chase said "women have been my heroes my whole life… Strong ballet women are my superheroes, and that’s what I want to portray."

 

More recently, Californian company Ballet 22 was founded in 2020 to "push the boundaries of what is possible in ballet by breaking gender-normative stereotypes specifically through the ungendered use of pointe shoes."

 

 

The upcoming Cecchetti Society Trust Vocational Classical Ballet Awards

 

 

has this in the T & C

 

CECCHETTI SOCIETY TRUST

Fewster Cecchetti Scholarship and Barbara Geoghegan Award competitors will all participate in an adjudicated ballet
class onstage set at Advanced 1 Level containing free work and the following specified traditional Cecchetti exercises
which should be pre-­‐rehearsed as the set work will not be taught on stage.
• First Set of Ports De Bras.
• Female: Pas de Chaconne and Glissade assemblé, temps levé in arabesque
• Male: Coupé et Fouetté and Assemblé temps levé (en avant and en arrière)
The class will include a pointe work section for those presenting as female work and virtuoso section for those
presenting male work

 

In fact I've had to re-read this several times in case I've put my foot in it. I am not intending to offend and I'm trying to keep it light but there could be, as the song goes, trouble ahead.

 

The times they are a changin'

 

 

 

[CHazell2]

Thanks for your reply Ondine. I agree that times are changing but we need to remember the past as well. Some ballets are masterpieces and should be regarded as such.

 

I don't know whether you know Gilbert and Sullivan but Little Buttercup in HMS Pinafore is described as a 'bumboat woman'. Bumboat | GSOpera - Gilbert and Sullivan Opera 

 

I love La Fille mal gardee

[Ondine]

11 minutes ago, CHazell2 said:

Little Buttercup in HMS Pinafore is described as a 'bumboat woman'.

 

Yes I know!  And of course G & S is the basis for Pineapple Poll. However, best not to Google in a public place.

 

I forgot to mention the pony in Fille.  I love the pony, the audience loves the pony.  But...

 

Don Q solved the horse on stage problem with a 'puppet'. 

 

At about a minute in, there's a WONDERFUL elephant here, though I'm sure a great deal of this is potentially offensive to someone. I think the only way to present a great deal of this is tongue in cheek and a wodge of humour.

 

https://www.facebook.com/MinistryofCultureSportandYouth/videos/720673733254895/?extid=CL-UNK-UNK-UNK-IOS_GK0T-GK

 

Edited to add thanks for that Bayadere link from this post @LinMM

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ondine

[CHazell2]

What's wrong with the pony?

 

I don't think that they are ill treated and it adds a sense of realism to the scene.

[Ondine]

4 minutes ago, CHazell2 said:

What's wrong with the pony?

 

As far as I'm concerned, the pony is the star of Fille, but the pony and animals in general 'performing' is a subject that has been discussed here.

 

Pigeons. Two. Should we, should we not? 

[jmhopton]

Yes, I love the pony in la Fille. Wouldn't be the same at all without 'naughty Peregrine' or an equivalent.

I suppose these days talking of ballets that have aged badly its usually because of woke or politically correct reasons but there are also ballets that were once standard rep that are now never or seldom performed such as Les Sylphides, Graduation Ball and most of Ninette de Valois ballets to name just a few. Is it because they have aged badly,  tastes have changed or they've just fallen out of favour with their respective Artistic Directors?

[Ondine]

4 minutes ago, jmhopton said:

Is it because they have aged badly,  tastes have changed or they've just fallen out of favour with their respective Artistic Directors?

 

All three I think. Depends on the ballet of course.

 

Les Sylphides... if done without the fairy frocks & poet in white tights, the music played beautifully, I'm sure would be fine with a modern audience?  (I love the whiff of the past, but I can see many won't.)

[Odyssey]

Sadly, I think Petrushka could well be a candidate for this list. The music, the spectacle and the tragic figure of the eponymous puppet make it a ballet to treasure, but the moor is undoubtedly a problem.

This article from Dance magazine provides a detailed examination of the issue

https://www.dancemagazine.com/blackface-in-ballet/

[Ondine]

 

11 minutes ago, Odyssey said:

Sadly, I think Petrushka could well be a candidate for this list.

 

Yet reading that history, how Fokine envisaged the characters, the Moor didn't need to be a Moor at all! 

 

Sleeping Beauty? Aurora is presented at 16 with a choice of suitors.  While not quite an arranged marriage, it's problematic in several ways!

[Odyssey]

3 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

 

Yet reading that history, how Fokine envisaged the characters, the Moor didn't need to be a Moor at all! 

 

I

Yes, Something that I had never come across before, but I’m not certain how the solution the article explores would be received.

[CHazell2]

4 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

 

Yet reading that history, how Fokine envisaged the characters, the Moor didn't need to be a Moor at all! 

 

Sleeping Beauty? Aurora is presented at 16 with a choice of suitors.  While not quite an arranged marriage, it's problematic in several ways!

in the 1890 original production, Aurora was 21, the age of majority so it was less of a problem then. I think it has only been within the last few decades that Aurora has been 16 - "Sweet sixteen and never been kissed."

[Melody]

I was rather concerned to read that some companies, both amateur and professional, are being advised not to stage The Mikado (generally considered G&S's best work) because it involves Japanese-ish makeup and is basically a caricature that could be considered offensive. Same thing with portraying Othello (in plays, opera, and ballet) in blackface. I know this is a different issue from some ballets being dropped because they don't appeal to current tastes, but it's rather worrying that pieces which are considered some of the best things written by their authors/composers are on the chopping block because of these issues.

[trog]

My Websters Dictionary (sadly not Morocco bound 🙂) says:
bumboat (noun): a boat that brings provisions and commodities for sale to larger ships in port or offshore

probably from Low German bumboot, from bum tree + boot boat

 

As to blackface or the moor mentioned above, that's the way the story was written, and I think these elements should remain. Should we ban R&J because Juliet is 13?

 

Where do we stand with the Chinese dance in The Nutcracker? I know some American companies don't mention Chinese for it.

 

You might be interested to know Talking Pictures TV censors Kind Hearts and Coronets. What is wrong with this lovely film? https://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/tp.htm#Kind_Hearts_and_Coronets_bowdlerised_when_broadcast_on_Talking_Pictures_8910 Strangely the same station does not censor To The Devil A Daughter - Nastassja Kinski was 14 or 15 when she did her full frontal nude scene.

 

[capybara]

9 hours ago, jmhopton said:

Is it because they have aged badly,  tastes have changed or they've just fallen out of favour with their respective Artistic Directors?

Yes.
And/or ADs are scared of the possible backlash?

[bridiem]

Yes, I'm sure some ballets have aged badly, but since the possible candidates are rarely or never performed it's difficult to say which they might be. I have to say that the last time I saw Pineapple Poll I thought it seemed dated (but maybe I was in the wrong mood). I think older works have to be staged very carefully in order to retain their life and flavour and that's not easy. There also has to be a willingness on the part of ADs to take risks and to understand and present the history of the art form.

 

We seem to live in age in which some people are only prepared to tolerate theatrical performances (of any kind) that reflect exactly the same values as those of today (or what they themselves feel today's values to be). Which is utterly boring and reflects a bizarre and blinkered view of history. It's also dangerous because it morphs into (or springs from?) an unwillingness to tolerate differing views or outlooks in any sphere.

[DVDfan]

This is a fascinating topic. I think that most audiences can cope with the idea that societal attitudes were different in the past, and that films/books/plays/ballet/opera that reflect them should simply be seen as period pieces.

 

A lot of criticism comes from ignorance - an example that springs to mind are the people who repeatedly insist that Cleopatra was black and should not be portrayed by a white woman. Actually Cleopatra was Greek. The same people also seem to me to insist that Henry V can be played by a black actor - well, I don't think you can have it both ways. Casting is either colour blind or should be true to the racial origins of the character.

 

In most societies that have practiced slavery, it was colour blind. Not all, but nevertheless the situation  in the USA where only black people could be enslaved was unusual. During the 17th century coastal areas of Southern England lived in fear of slave raiding by Barbary pirates - the original Corsairs, so you could claim that Le Corsaire is offensive to us. 

 

I think that what makes a ballet or any other art form dated or still relevant is not attitudes or situations that are no longer in favour or acceptable but whether it still contains insights or stories that are relevant, and in ballet whether or not the music and choreography are brilliant or just very good. For example, Fille remains relevant because of the choreography and the feel good story - a story most can relate to of a young woman who wants to marry her own choice of husband for love, and rejects the worldly advantage of the match her mother wants her to make. This taps into the universal theme of coming of age, breaking away from her parent's control and of marrying for the right reasons. 

[Jamesrhblack]

22 minutes ago, DVDfan said:

A lot of criticism comes from ignorance - an example that springs to mind are the people who repeatedly insist that Cleopatra was black and should not be portrayed by a white woman. Actually Cleopatra was Greek. The same people also seem to me to insist that Henry V can be played by a black actor - well, I don't think you can have it both ways. Casting is either colour blind or should be true to the racial origins of the character.

 

 

And Shakespeare’s Cleopatra was first played by a boy in a crinoline, “Cut my lace, Charmian…| etc etc etc

[Suffolkgal]

Love pineapple poll one of my earliest memories! checkmate is of its time but striking and again in our country’s cultural heritage. I find both different drummer and Judas tree very challenging but would never ask for them to be dropped because of my sensibilities... Chinese laundry scene in Bugsy Malone? Broken Blossoms? Pantomime? Ian McKellen and Derek Jacobi in Vicious? Where do you start and where would you stop? Ballet often requires one to take things on trust and in context ... this is an interesting discussion though. We make up our own minds here and by and large respect each other’s views. Would it were so in the wider world of the arts where others like to tell us when we should be offended!

[Pas de Quatre]

The ballet Le Corsaire is set in Arabia which is East Africa, thousands of miles away from West Africa and the transatlantic slave trade.

[offmenu]

4 hours ago, Melody said:

I was rather concerned to read that some companies, both amateur and professional, are being advised not to stage The Mikado (generally considered G&S's best work) because it involves Japanese-ish makeup and is basically a caricature that could be considered offensive. Same thing with portraying Othello (in plays, opera, and ballet) in blackface. I know this is a different issue from some ballets being dropped because they don't appeal to current tastes, but it's rather worrying that pieces which are considered some of the best things written by their authors/composers are on the chopping block because of these issues.

With Othello at least, there seems a fairly easy and obvious fix - hire a black actor/performer. I don’t see why it should be retired simply because white people can’t (and RESOUNDINGLY should not) portray a character of a different race.

 

I’m no expert but I think one of the problems is a significant lack of people of color on the back-end/production side (and certainly on stage, though this is slowly but increasingly diversifying). By cultivating a more diverse production team and staff, you open the door for different stories to be told, and possibly even the relevant expertise to help tell them. This could be a solution to determining what and/or how certain productions can be staged. I agree that it would be a shame to lose a lot of great work - but it would be much worse not to lend a critical eye over what exactly is being portrayed. That’s not to say that isn’t happening (in fact I imagine in the case of the RB it’s happening in droves) nor is that to mean offense towards anyone posting here. Only that perhaps we as a culture place too much emphasis on honoring the past and can be glad of the inclusivity in stories and faces that will hopefully come in the future.

[taxi4ballet]

11 hours ago, CHazell2 said:

What's wrong with the pony?

 

I don't think that they are ill treated and it adds a sense of realism to the scene.

I think it is to do with the level of realism which can be left behind on stage when the pony departs!

[Sim]

I posted elsewhere on the forum quite recently that when I bumped into Naughty Peregrine and his trainer outside Sadler's Wells a few years ago during BRB's fabulous run of Fille, I stopped and had a chat and the trainer told me that NP absolutely loves his turn onstage and can't wait for each performance.  He is happy and loved by his carers, owners and the audience and very well looked after, even spoiled.  So I really don't think there's an issue with having a loved and well looked-after animal live onstage as long as they are happy doing it.  

 

1 hour ago, offmenu said:

With Othello at least, there seems a fairly easy and obvious fix - hire a black actor/performer. I don’t see why it should be retired simply because white people can’t (and RESOUNDINGLY should not) portray a character of a different race.

 

 

So I assume you are also resoundingly against a black actor playing Hamlet, 'fair' Ophelia, Juliet,  Anne Boleyn or Salieri (all of which they have)?  Acting is just that, acting.  It is make believe, so we have to suspend our disbelief.  Acting should be colour blind, so if black actors can play these characters, a white actor should be able to play a black character such as Othello.  It either works both ways, or no way.  If gay characters are only played by gay actors, if Latin characters are only played by Latino/a actors, etc., then much of the challenge of being an actor disappears.  Perhaps I'm being naive and idealistic, but I don't care what skin colour an actor has for any role....what I care about is whether it's a good performance that affects me emotionally in some way.  

 

Back to out of date ballets...I never want to see blackface ever again, anywhere.  However, for censorship to be happening to ballets that are more than 100 years old and are merely portraying fairy tales is, for me, a real shame.  There is nothing wrong with seeing (and reading) about how things were viewed in the past.  If that were the case, we would be deprived of much of our art from the past 1000 years.  I don't get personally offended by anything.  I can get angry or repulsed, but I don't take it personally.  Art should (and often does) reflect the society in which it is produced, and I always find it interesting to look back at those societies through the prism of what its artists convey to us.  

 

I have seen some ballets that look out of date in different ways, but I still really like them.  For example, Checkmate.  Or anything by Martha Graham, who was once so ahead of her time....for me, her ballets now look very dated but I enjoy watching them just to see what pushing artistic boundaries meant back then.  

[offmenu]

17 minutes ago, Sim said:

So I assume you are also resoundingly against a black actor playing Hamlet, 'fair' Ophelia, Juliet,  Anne Boleyn or Salieri (all of which they have)?  Acting is just that, acting.  It is make believe, so we have to suspend our disbelief.  Acting should be colour blind, so if black actors can play these characters, a white actor should be able to play a black character such as Othello.  It either works both ways, or no way.  If gay characters are only played by gay actors, if Latin characters are only played by Latino/a actors, etc., then much of the challenge of being an actor disappears.  Perhaps I'm being naive and idealistic, but I don't care what skin colour an actor has for any role....what I care about is whether it's a good performance that affects me emotionally in some way.  

 

I was referring specifically to the practice and use of blackface in the case of a white actor playing a black role (which given the rest of your post you agree with). 
 

As a white person I don’t think I can fairly comment on this very difficult issue (though I am very uncomfortable with white actors playing other races) nor do I think it has any kind of hard cut solution like the one you are suggesting. My intention is not to make any kind of judgment on the process of acting, but rather to suggest including more people of colour in the production room is the way forward in determining what stories will be told. I dearly hope that that isn’t a point of contention.

[Ondine]

14 hours ago, Ondine said:

In 2018, Chase Johnsey made headlines performing a typically female role for a major ballet company, English National Ballet, as one of the ladies in the Prince’s court in The Sleeping Beauty.  When questioned about why he’d want to dance as a ballerina, Chase said "women have been my heroes my whole life… Strong ballet women are my superheroes, and that’s what I want to portray."

 

An issue to which no-one has responded. 'Traditional 'male & female steps (including pointework) now being danced by all?

 

Leaving aside the Trocks, how soon will we be seeing a male Aurora, I wonder?

 

 

[zxDaveM]

2 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

Leaving aside the Trocks, how soon will we be seeing a male Aurora, I wonder?

 

 

never, I hope!

[Sim]

2 minutes ago, offmenu said:

I was referring specifically to the practice and use of blackface in the case of a white actor playing a black role (which given the rest of your post you agree with). 
 

 

Ah, you didn't mention that.  You said that a white actor RESOUNDINGLY should not portray characters of a different race.  Had you said that they resoundingly should not use black face in order to portray a different ethnic character I would have agreed with you immediately!  I am white and I don't feel uncomfortable with white actors portraying other races as long as it's done sensitively, just as I have no problem with black or Asian actors portraying white characters as long as it's done sensitively.  Or in an amusing way.  I am reminded of Eddie Murphy portraying white and black characters in a Queens barbershop in the film Coming to America.  I am originally from Queens and he nailed each and every one of those characters that I grew up with.  It has never occurred to me to be offended or uncomfortable with his portayal of the white character because he does it so brilliantly, even though he is using 'white face' !  Each and every one of those characters makes me laugh.  

 

Anyway, back to ballet.  Apologies for helping to veer off course with this thread.  

[LinMM]

Thankyou Sim I deleted a post I was going to submit because I thought I might be being too controversial. 

The conundrum I see with Shakespeare is that he was English and his great works are in English and part of our heritage culture. 
So it would be a shame for great roles to be denied to English ( white) actors because they were White!! 
Likewise I would hate to see a black actor from UK (or otherwise)  denied access to great roles because they were black. So in that sense I do think there is room for theatre to be a little “colour blind “ 

Having said that I wonder what Shakespeare would do with casting for his plays if around today 🤔

 

[Ondine]

4 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Having said that I wonder what Shakespeare would do with casting for his plays if around today

 

Of course his women were played by men...  and boys.

[Sim]

The best portrayal of Richard III I ever saw was by a small, Asian woman about 20 years ago at the Globe. I was dragged in kicking and screaming as I thought it would be awful, and it turned out to be one of the finest nights of Shakespeare I have ever seen.  

[Ondine]

Here we are. Men playing women, women playing men.

 

https://theconversation.com/why-werent-women-allowed-to-act-in-shakespeares-plays-177804

 

Perhaps we should mention Coppelia here.  

 

The part of Franz was originally danced en travesti by Eugénie Fiocre,  who was yes, a woman.