Classical V. Contemporary Choreography

[Bruce Wall]

16 minutes ago, capybara said:

Where is that tin, please?

I have never seen a written  statement outlining the RB’s vision and how that translates into the balance within the rep.

Without that, all I know is what I see  and interpret more as a mishmash response to current forces in society and the ballet world than a fully thought through transition from the classics/heritage rep. to …… what exactly.

 

Bingo, capybara. 

The TIN that I was referring to was the verbal one I heard with my own ears - delivered as it was in shards and only - but politely - issued when pressed.  I think, as ever, we have to look between such lines and let our native instincts fill in the proverbial gaps.  We don't, I think, have many other options in real terms.  It seems on this Forum many have been more than accurate in doing so in the past few years as reality itself has illustrated.  I, too, would love a written statement.  I suspect that kind of material - where it is to be found - is woolly at best and lodged in funding applications scrawled by paid consultants who are simply feeding back what the particular money sources have already fed.  In short, dry spin.  That's a different kind of dance altogether! 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Bruce Wall

[LinMM]

Looking at what oncnp has found to be written you are dead right in post above Bruce Wall! 

[Sim]

Is Resident Choreographer a lifetime appointment, I wonder?

[art_enthusiast]

2 hours ago, Sim said:

Is Resident Choreographer a lifetime appointment, I wonder?

 

Who was the resident choreographer before Wayne McGregor, or did they not have one? Just curious

[The Sitter In]

Alas, it doesn’t look like the post of Resident Choreographer will be up for grabs any time soon.  The current incumbent has been there far too long and seems he can do no wrong, spend however much he wishes and thoroughly dominate proceedings with an internal profile far greater than either Ashton or MacMillan.  More Balanchine, Robbins, Nijinska v. more McGregor? No contest in my book.  When will. it all end?

[Dawnstar]

4 hours ago, Bruce Wall said:

It is clear if we wish an alternative as opposed to what once we clearly saw a mainstay - i.e., both perceived and witnessed - we must on balance go elsewhere.

 

Where is there to go though? For those of us who can't afford to travel further than London there aren't a lot of options beyond the RB. ENB does only 2 or 3 full-length ballets per season. BRB & overseas companies occasionally visit to London. The RB is the only company which does a full season in London.

[Sophoife]

 

2 hours ago, Sim said:

Is Resident Choreographer a lifetime appointment, I wonder?

 

Not at the Australian Ballet, @Sim.

 

Alice Topp currently enjoys that title and presumably support. Hers is the sole name under that heading, and she was named some time in late 2018 (between the production of programmes for September and December).

 

Natalie Weir was named resident choreographer in I think 2000, but none of her work has been performed by the company since 2001, and she dropped off the list some time in the mid-2000s.

 

Stephen Baynes was named resident choreographer in 1995, and remained on the list until 2021.

 

Stanton Welch was a resident choreographer from 1995-2021.

 

Tim Harbour was a resident choreographer from 2014-2021.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sophoife
Missed out a conjunction

[Sim]

1 minute ago, Sophoife said:

 

 

Not at the Australian Ballet, @Sim. Alice Topp currently enjoys that title and presumably support. Hers is the sole name under that heading, and she was named some time in late 2018 (between the production of programmes for September and December).

 

Natalie Weir was named resident choreographer in I think 2000, but none of her work has been performed by the company since 2001, and she dropped off the list some time in the mid-2000s.

 

Stephen Baynes was named resident choreographer in 1995, and remained on the list until 2021.

 

Stanton Welch was a resident choreographer from 1995-2021.

 

Tim Harbour was a resident choreographer from 2014-2021.

 

Hmmm...wonder if they will ever change it from Wayne McGregor at the RB.  It's been 18 years now (he was appointed after 2005's Chroma).

[Sophoife]

Change in AD, @Sim...?

[bridiem]

4 hours ago, oncnp said:

Mission statement proving a little difficult to find but the website does say this (edited to remove superfluous and self-congratulatory fluff) 

 

Under the leadership of Director Kevin O’Hare, grand balletic tradition and an illustrious heritage are united with innovation, daring and exceptional standards of artistry, creativity and stagecraft to produce supreme theatre. It is a beacon in the cultural life of Britain and a driving force behind the development of ballet as an artform. ......

 

today’s most dynamic and versatile dancers come together with a world-class orchestra and leading choreographers, composers, conductors, designers and creative teams to share an awe-inspiring theatrical experience with diverse audiences worldwide. .........

 

The extensive repertory of The Royal Ballet follows a unique trajectory from 19th-century classics to the singular legacy of works by Founder Choreographer Frederick Ashton and Principal Choreographer Kenneth MacMillan and the compelling new canon of work by Resident Choreographer Wayne McGregor and Artistic Associate Christopher Wheeldon. Along with innovative commissions and choreographic initiatives across the main stage and Linbury Theatre and strong links with The Royal Ballet School, the Company continues to refresh and surprise.

 

I appreciate that these are words that need to be used nowadays: innovation, daring, creativity, development, diverse, initiatives, etc etc. And I'm sure there are good intentions here, and it's true that the company does indeed often produce high-level theatre. I do note however that the word 'dance' is used nowhere above, which is interesting. Also that the RB's 'extensive repertory' is mentioned but in practice largely ignored. And it has to be admitted that in spite of these brave words, with a very small number of exceptions the new works at the RB in recent decades have generally been very disappointing. Wayne McGregor is a media darling and so usually gets generous reviews regardless of what he produces; but very little has actually been successful and very little will last. Even the late lamented Liam Scarlett was not, in my opinion, really fulfilling his great early promise, and I'm not sure why that was the case.

 

Perhaps it would help if emerging choreographers in the field of ballet were encouraged and nurtured, rather than someone in the field of hip-hop who will never produce anything approaching a ballet let alone one that will contribute to the company's 'singular legacy'.

[capybara]

16 minutes ago, bridiem said:

I appreciate that these are words that need to be used nowadays: innovation, daring, creativity, development, diverse, initiatives, etc etc. And I'm sure there are good intentions here, and it's true that the company does indeed often produce high-level

The words quoted by @oncnp above are little more than ‘promo -speak’ . Although I have heard a sentence or two about the rep. from KOH himself, the piece was clearly from the pen of one of the ROH’s group of friendly writers - eg Sarah Crompton. No criticism of her or Anon intended but Kevin simply doesn’t express himself like that.

 

However, soon after he was appointed, he did explain (in more than one interview) that his pitch for the Directorship was akin to a triumvirate with McGregor and Wheeldon alongside him. So, that ‘team’, the current overall shape of the rep., and the direction of travel which concerns many of us are unlikely to change until there is a new Director.

[Fonty]

Quote

I see from an item in today’s Links that Joseph Toonga is continuing his choreographic residency with the RB for a third season.

 

What?  Can someone enlighten me as to what Toonga has actually done?   I have seen only one of his works, I can't remember what the programme was, but I think I wrote a very scathing review of it on here.  Frankly, I thought it was ghastly.  The idea that he is "continuing" anything with the RB fills me with horror!

 

 

[Bruce Wall]

38 minutes ago, capybara said:

So, that ‘team’, the current overall shape of the rep., and the direction of travel which concerns many of us are unlikely to change until there is a new Director.

 

I have a feeling it could be a good couple of decades yet - and may well see a goodly number on this board out. 

 

Certainly I can't beat them - (wouldn't want to try) ... so I've proudly joined in support of the RDT Triumvirate well before their parade dances by - but - in more than equal measure also seen - as I felt was critical for me - to have a rightful balance where at least the frolicking leap of the forward march of the balletic idiom could stand at core.  Certainly I well know time waits for no man, (sorry, person).  

 

(In answer to Dawnstar, - since you quoted me - I know it is hard but I think we should be oh, so grateful for what we DO have.  We ARE privileged to have ENB and BRB as much as the RDT.  There are many on this planet who dream of having access to such.  Sadly I will miss ENB doing Theme (will have to make do with NYCB doing it) but I'm so glad I'll be able to see a goodly many of the Skeaping Giselles.  Before the dates were announced I had thought I'd miss a chunk.  I so love that production - one more akin to the Ratmansky that the Wright.  I oh, so ADORE that

fugue.  

 

Also to answer a number of notations as to a desire for foreign companies:  I think these will become - at least in the foreseeable short-term - (now there's a contradiction to dwell upon) - that it will be very UNlikely.  I think we have to remember that the 2023 TAB visit will inevitably have been agreed at the time of - and I think most assuredly BEFORE - the pandemic.  Certain costs and procedures would have been contained at that time.  Much in this world has changed.  The UK government hugely upped the arts touring requirements and visa costs for foreign entities.  Thus you really haven't heard any other announcements short of individuals and I suspect you won't.  The Americans had just earlier done the same - to an even greater extent.  I doubt you will be seeing the RDT - as a Company, say - in NY at any point in the near future.  Look at the Kennedy Center - apart from the past annual Russian company visits - one after the other - their season was chocker-blocked with international dance - including a lot of ballet.  The last season and next features virtually has NONE.  It's all indigenous - and cut down at that.  Tis a different world.  The Europeans are freer in this aspect - so Paris remains a haven - but even there it's not as keen a stunning array as it once was.  

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Bruce Wall

[alison]

12 minutes ago, capybara said:

However, soon after he was appointed, he did explain (in more than one interview) that his pitch for the Directorship was akin to a triumvirate with McGregor and Wheeldon alongside him.

 

Didn't he say that McGregor, Wheeldon and Scarlett were all prepared to work with him?  I never did find out whether any of the other candidates thought to ask them ...

[capybara]

20 minutes ago, Bruce Wall said:

I have a feeling it could be a good couple of decades yet - and may well see a goodly number on this board out.  

 

Certainly me but that does not diminish my interest in the RB's present and future.

 

KOH will surely not continue into his late seventies and there may even be a number of 'hopefuls' eyeing the position now as he approaches 60.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by capybara

[Bruce Wall]

5 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

Certainly me but that does not diminish my interest in the RB's present and future.

 

KOH will surely not continue into his late seventies and there are may even be a number of 'hopefuls' eyeing the position as he approaches 60.

 

And here was me thinking that they might well be  'Call[ing Him] Madam'!

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Bruce Wall

[Fonty]

It always amazes me that we are even having these discussions about dance.  I know absolutely nothing about opera, but surely it would be unthinkable for the Royal Opera to abandon much of its operatic repertoire in favour of new works by contemporary composers?  With the argument that today's highly trained singers are willing and eager to leave behind Mozart, Rossini, Verdi, in order to embrace works by the radical new composer,  Mr Rusty Nail.   Cue new works that show them making gargling or loud coughing noises, screeching like badly oiled doors, or imply standing still in complete silence, with the critics going wild and exclaiming that it will encourage a whole new audience to come and enjoy opera.....

[zxDaveM]

Yhe only opera I'm ever likely to go see is Pete Townsend's rock opera 'Tommy'.... 😉

[Pas de Quatre]

I am not an expert, but have a working knowledge of opera. The singers are even more compartmentalised than ballet. If you are known for Italian operas you will be unlikely to be singing German opera.

[LinMM]

Your post just made me laugh Fonty 

“Mr.Rusty Nail” 😂 and “complete silence” being the order of the day lol 😂

Edited August 10, 2023 by LinMM

[Tango Dancer]

2 hours ago, Fonty said:

It always amazes me that we are even having these discussions about dance.  I know absolutely nothing about opera, but surely it would be unthinkable for the Royal Opera to abandon much of its operatic repertoire in favour of new works by contemporary composers?  With the argument that today's highly trained singers are willing and eager to leave behind Mozart, Rossini, Verdi, in order to embrace works by the radical new composer,  Mr Rusty Nail.   Cue new works that show them making gargling or loud coughing noises, screeching like badly oiled doors, or imply standing still in complete silence, with the critics going wild and exclaiming that it will encourage a whole new audience to come and enjoy opera.....

 

They do perform some newer operas but they still need to be "operas" even if they're more modern.  So for example ENO is doing an opera of "Handmaid's Tale" composed by Poul Ruders in 1999 this season.  ROH is doing some more modern things (I think there's one by Martinu) but mainly at the Linbury.  

[Dawnstar]

Although the Royal Opera performs fewer new operas than the Royal Ballet performs new, er, works (I really can't call some of them ballets), at least with the RB you know if you are going to a classical piece then it will have an attractive & reasonably traditional production, which cannot be said for many of the opera productions at the moment.

[capybara]

@Sim has just mentioned on another thread that the 60th anniversary of Fille was missed in 2020.

The fact that it isn’t performed here any more while it continues to be shown in Europe is a prime example of the extent to which external factors are among the drivers changing the RB’s rep. by stealth as much, if not more, as by vision and design.

[Suffolkgal]

Can only concur with the unquiet sentiments here. Every ballet was new once so we must have new works ... but the balance between new pieces and  the RB’s unrivalled repertoire seems to me off kilter given the art form that classical ballet is. One rich in heritage where the art is passed from one generation to the next and beyond. I can see many of the recent expensive contemporary ballets withering on the vine. All too often I fear it’s all about a series of big ticks to meet targets and secure funding.

[Ondine]

7 hours ago, Fonty said:

Can someone enlighten me as to what Toonga has actually done? 

 

Joseph Toonga has worked with the RBS students for a piece for the 2022 show. He may have done more.

Whatever your views on the merits or not of his choreography, I'm sure for the students involved it's useful experience and good to have on a  CV that they have been part of the creative process leading to a finished contemporary piece for performance.  Given how few of the RBS students end up in the company, versatility is key to employment surely? He appeared to have some rapport with these young people.

 

 

 

He also choreographed this: Rehearsal of New Toonga: See Us!! Music Michael ‘Mikey J’ Asante Joseph Toonga, Choreographer Ashley Dean, Soloist of The Royal Ballet Joseph Sissens, First Soloist of The Royal Ballet

 

Ignore the 'Diamonds' it isn't. 

 

 

 

 

[jmhopton]

On 09/08/2023 at 10:46, bridiem said:

The RB really have no choice about their guesting policy, given how few performances most of the principals get. 

Yes,good point, briediem and one Vadim himself mentioned in an an interview during (I think) one of his many guests with Cape Town Ballet. He said he could get quite a few more shows with them than he gets at the ROH.  However,  if his Instagram account is anything to go by he does seem to be a workaholic, having spent most of his Sumner 'break' guesting with other companies all over the world, so even if he had more ROH shows than he currently gets it still probably wouldn't be enough to stop him guesting. However, I don't know if what he dances abroad really extends him artistically as it seems to be a mix of galas and traditional full length ballets. Also, it's interesting that even though he dances so much he seldom gets injured and I wonder if that is because (as someone previously suggested) he doesn't mix dancing styles by taking on very modern dance works with very different physical demands.

 

However, to return to his dancing rep, it is ironic that the one company with the rep to stretch him technically and artistically and to potentially encourage him to dance more over here is the RB; if they would utilise it. They have a back catalogue second to none if only we could see more of it.  So many Ashton and Macmillan short ballets that are in danger of becoming obsolete under the use them or lose them mantra. Also Balanchine,  Robbins,  de Valois,  most of the Ballet Russes rep and probably many others I've not even heard of as I've never seen them. It's very frustrating. Comes to something when a ballet like Fille which you think is one of the RB signature ballets, hasn't been programmed for over 5 years. Surely they have to programme it for the Ashton Foundation celebrations?  You can't have an Ashton celebration without Fille.  I'm hoping Iain and Margaret Webb from Sarasota will pass on some of their extensive knowledge of the more obscure Ashton rep when they're over here next Sumner. Kevin invited them so perhaps he's not totally in thrall to the modern mantra he seems to favour. 

[taxi4ballet]

14 hours ago, oncnp said:

 

Mission statement proving a little difficult to find but the website does say this (edited to remove superfluous and self-congratulatory fluff) 

 

Under the leadership of Director Kevin O’Hare, grand balletic tradition and an illustrious heritage are united with innovation, daring and exceptional standards of artistry, creativity and stagecraft to produce supreme theatre. It is a beacon in the cultural life of Britain and a driving force behind the development of ballet as an artform. ......

 

Well there we are then... "a driving force behind the development of ballet as an artform."

 

Ballet. Ballet as an art form, not ballet developed so far it morphs into contemporary.

[Bruce Wall]

What you don't hear in those clips above is Mr. Toonga talking about his journey WITH BALLET.  Indeed he doesn't mention the word in terms of his own work.  Surely if it is going to be 'a development of 'ballet as an art form' it needs to be AN INTER-ACTIVE CONVERSATION - hip-hop included - but with the emphasis in/on the balletic idiom.  This is where, for example, it is VERY different from Kyle Abraham's association with NYCB.  He comes from a not entirely dis-similar background to the RDT's current charge but is willing and has embraced the balletic idiom in his NYCB efforts.  It is in this aspect that I previously struggled vis a vis Mr. Toonga.  That said, I can now clearly see how this fulfils the established theatrical commitment of the RDT - much, say, as it might, Adventures in Motion Pictures - which I now see as a close associate of the RDT in terms of their own purposeful drive - and, heavens knows, the former has been gloriously successful in carving out a dedicated audience.  Moreover, they truly cover this nation - as well as international ports.  They could quite rightly lay claim to a 'National' tag. 

 

For now I look forward to seeing what and how Mr. Toonga develops  - and really can only type those words with any sense of comfort as I've now clearly settled in my own mind what the over-riding structure of the core organisation supporting him in reality is.  (Thanks be to the RDT's noble leader.)  That said, I must confess I have not been particularly taken with those pieces I have seen of Mr. Toonga's work.  I will keep trying.  I'm sure there is something there to gain.  Just look at the response from the RDT artists.  I look forward to his future RDT development.  I can only now feel he is in a 'right place' FOR HIM - as he seems, himself, to suggest.  Good luck to him I say.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Bruce Wall

[Ondine]

Progress though. Nothing remains static and certainly not ballet. 

 

Below are links to videos with performances of dances based on my research. These include reconstructions of extant dances in notation, or newly created choreography based on a variety of primary sources, performed by Mojca Gal with male technique. (Before c1730, women dancers, even on stage, were expected to be more modest in their movements.)

Eighteenth-century ballet consisted of four distinct conventional styles: the serious, the half-serious, comic, and grotesque. These differed not merely in kinds of roles but also in movements and positions as well as choreographic principles. (For a discussion of these styles, see my The Styles of Eighteenth-Century Ballet.) The dances in the videos below are in the serious, half-serious style and comic styles.

 

https://eighteenthcenturyballet.com/videos_eighteenth-century_dance/

 

 

[Richard LH]

18 hours ago, bridiem said:

Wayne McGregor is a media darling and so usually gets generous reviews regardless of what he produces; but very little has actually been successful and very little will last.

I think I recall him saying  that he is not that interested in whether his productions prove to be lasting...he seems to be more inclined to jump from one project to the next, taking rather an ephemeral,  "butterfly" approach. Being generous, this could be argued to be celebrating the excitement of the creative process itself.  If I am being ungenerous, it could be seen as  a good excuse for some works that seem to lack new ideas and end up quite similar and forgettable.

[Ondine]

A great deal of Ashton is no longer performed and it's possible that if these were revived we'd think they were quaint, of their time,  and there was a reason for them dropping from the rep.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ballets_choreographed_by_Frederick_Ashton

 

[zxDaveM]

40 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

Wayne McGregor .... very little has actually been successful and very little will last.

[sorry, that should be quoting bridiem, not Richard]

 

You could argue that for any choreographer though - as the artform inherently ephemeral.

Puzzles me when ANY work by genius choreographers like Ashton, or MacMillan, or Balanchine are described as 'masterpieces', when they obviously aren't, and have not been dropped from the rep without good reason. As for McGregor - I think something like Woolf Works will endure, and maybe Chroma and Infra, maybe act 1 of Dante, even Untitled 2023 (though the naming of that infers maybe not - though most newly commissioned works have two runs, it seems) whilst some works may be revival worthy, others not so much. But whilst he is still around, don't think McGregor himself will be doing the reviving on the whole, as he is too busy creating something 'new' around the world (I say 'new', as it isn't difficult to see many of his abstract works as similar due to his choreographic language, without different stories to hang them on)

[Pas de Quatre]

There has long  been the theory of "a baker's dozen" applied to the Arts. For every one genuine masterpiece there will be a dozen or so that aren't very good, or even if popular at first, are soon forgotten.