Classical V. Contemporary Choreography

[Jan McNulty]

3 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Well... I reckon a ballet company is one where company class is a trad ballet class daily. Barre, centre,  etc.

 

It's not based on Graham technique or anything else technique.

 

https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/excerpt/martha-graham-ndash-the-graham-technique

 

I'm sure others will have their own opinions...

 

 

 

 

Now that is IMHO a good summation but where would Rambert fit as I believe they do classical classes (but not sure if every day or short).

[Jan McNulty]

18 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Is this a case of rumour spreading? Beyond this forum, has anyone had a whisper that Fille is 'cancelled'?  If not perhaps this is simply alarmist?

 

Apart from Alain, Widow Simone, the pony, the harsh, degrading and cruel beating of poor Lise, not to mention the fire risk of locking her in alone...  it's all fine... 🤨

 

 

Ondine - I've just laughed out loud!!

[Ondine]

1 minute ago, Jan McNulty said:

Ondine - I've just laughed out loud!!

 

It's all more MacMillan than Ashton really.

[Ondine]

16 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

where would Rambert fit as I believe they do classical classes (but not sure if every day or short).

 

This is where it gets tricky, but I think Rambert wouldn't describe itself as a ballet company these days and I suspect (don't know not enquired) it also does Graham or other technique class?

 

I know from students I've sent to Laban & London School of Contemporary Dance in the dim distant past that ballet was taught. All were initially ballet trained, up to 'majors' then learned Graham as an 'add on' without any problem.

 

(I was taught by one of Laban's disciples many many years ago, she was a student of his pre war, before her family and Laban removed themselves from the grip of the Nazis.  Not sure what hold he had on those women, who seemed to come over misty eyed at a mention of him. But I digress.)

 

I know many Merce Cunningham dancers used to take class with Margaret Craske in the US, the great Cecchetti teacher. Cecchetti technique they specifically found useful, for various reasons.

 

So much crossover.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/1999/jan/27/guardianobituaries

 

There's an interesting piece about Cunningham here with a small aside about how nice a person Fonteyn was.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/arts-post/post/2011/10/24/gIQASr75CM_blog.html

 

 

[Pas de Quatre]

Most Contemporary companies alternate classes, one day it is a contemporary class, the next a classical class.  Some years ago when Ailey 2 were on tour in UK, I did a masterclass with them which was Horton based.  However, I remember vividly that they said they do a lot of classical classes and the girls do pointework too.

 

Dangers of Fille - in the Karsavina mime Lise spanks her child for not knowing the book lesson!

[bridiem]

2 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Dangers of Fille - in the Karsavina mime Lise spanks her child for not knowing the book lesson!

 

And, Colas lifting Lise up to kiss her from over the top of the kitchen door is surely a H&S outrage. Have they no sense?!

 

And don't get me started on the bum lift.

[Suffolkgal]

I can’t even start on the hens

[Ondine]

And the s e x in the upstairs bedroom, thankfully Ashton spared us the graphics. MacMillan wouldn't have.

[Ondine]

32 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Some years ago when Ailey 2 were on tour in UK, I did a masterclass with them

  

I came across this and had just read it when you posted that.

 

Basically it's about how ephemeral dance is, how, as I think I said way back you can't hang it on a gallery wall to preserve it and show it, 'modern' companies with a charismatic leader didn't perform the work of others apart from Ailey, as mostly there wasn't a great deal of love lost, and so much else that fits into this topic and I recommend people read it.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072703072.html?itid=lk_interstitial_manual_20

 

[capybara]

3 hours ago, Ondine said:

Is this a case of rumour spreading? Beyond this forum, has anyone had a whisper that Fille is 'cancelled'?  If not perhaps this is simply alarmist?

IIRC the ‘rumour’ of there being ‘a problem’ surfaced when, firstly, there was some fairly widespread talk of Fille being mounted to provide a feel good factor after the pandemic - then it wasn’t……. The ‘explanation’ was a little vague and a number of BCF members seem to have heard it informally from within the RB. But that was 2/3 years ago and I, at least, have not heard anything being said officially.

 

Meanwhile, I went to Ruddigore at Opera Holland Park today, a Gilbert and Sullivan Operetta dating from 1887. It has a character called Mad Margaret and, as far as I can remember, she was played and referred to disparagingly as originally written. But the audience did not appear troubled by this in the slightest, with some people near me seemingly laughing along at the character’s expense.

I was uneasy because I felt that mental illness (or, at least, someone who was ‘different’) was openly mocked on stage and off (and at a ‘relaxed’ performance too).
 

And I am left wondering how it was deemed ‘OK’ for that production, with its more extreme portrayal of a disorder, to be shown when doubts continue to surround Fille.

 

 

[Ondine]

Giselle... 'the mad scene' as it's always called...

[stucha]

8 hours ago, capybara said:

IIRC the ‘rumour’ of there being ‘a problem’ surfaced when, firstly, there was some fairly widespread talk of Fille being mounted to provide a feel good factor after the pandemic - then it wasn’t……. The ‘explanation’ was a little vague and a number of BCF members seem to have heard it informally from within the RB. But that was 2/3 years ago and I, at least, have not heard anything being said officially.

 

Meanwhile, I went to Ruddigore at Opera Holland Park today, a Gilbert and Sullivan Operetta dating from 1887. It has a character called Mad Margaret and, as far as I can remember, she was played and referred to disparagingly as originally written. But the audience did not appear troubled by this in the slightest, with some people near me seemingly laughing along at the character’s expense.

I was uneasy because I felt that mental illness (or, at least, someone who was ‘different’) was openly mocked on stage and off (and at a ‘relaxed’ performance too).
 

And I am left wondering how it was deemed ‘OK’ for that production, with its more extreme portrayal of a disorder, to be shown when doubts continue to surround Fille.

 

 

 

There are many 'mad' scenes for sopranos in 19th century opera, Lucia di Lammermoor probably being the most famous.  As I understand it, the character of mad Margaret was based on Lucia and was intended to be a parody of the extremes of operatic excess of the times and not a realistic portrayal of mental disorder. I understand that it may raise issues with some in these treacherous times.

[MAB]

4 hours ago, stucha said:

treacherous times.

 

A good way of putting it.  The arts discover they're standing in a minefield.

[maryrosesatonapin]

On 08/08/2023 at 14:24, OnePigeon said:

Well hopefully we’ll at least get some Bournonville . 😉

Ha ha!  If only.

[capybara]

5 hours ago, stucha said:

There are many 'mad' scenes for sopranos in 19th century opera, Lucia di Lammermoor probably being the most famous.  As I understand it, the character of mad Margaret was based on Lucia and was intended to be a parody of the extremes of operatic excess of the times and not a realistic portrayal of mental disorder. I understand that it may raise issues with some in these treacherous times.

Yes, I get that (and that Gilbert and Sullivan produced comic operettas) but it is difficult to understand why such different ‘standards’ now seem to apply across the arts. 
I know there have been criticisms of casting, for example in Madame Butterfly, but it appears to me (as a largely non-opera goer) that ballet is subject to more critical scrutiny in what you so aptly describe as ‘these treacherous times’.

[maryrosesatonapin]

On 10/08/2023 at 15:07, Fonty said:

 

What?  Can someone enlighten me as to what Toonga has actually done?   I have seen only one of his works, I can't remember what the programme was, but I think I wrote a very scathing review of it on here.  Frankly, I thought it was ghastly.  The idea that he is "continuing" anything with the RB fills me with horror!

 

 

Same here.  When seeing him interviewed, he seemed a nice chap but completely out of his depth IMO.

[MAB]

3 hours ago, capybara said:

I know there have been criticisms of casting, for example in Madame Butterfly, but it appears to me (as a largely non-opera goer) that ballet is subject to more critical scrutiny in what you so aptly describe as ‘these treacherous times’.

 

Butterfly is the tip of the iceberg, drama and literature are also being scrutinised and classics rewritten

 

As for Bournonville, his ballets are being stripped of religious connotations in Denmark because the director is an atheist.

[art_enthusiast]

3 hours ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

Same here.  When seeing him interviewed, he seemed a nice chap but completely out of his depth IMO.

 

I do quite like his works, but I agree that the Royal Ballet definitely needs a ballet focused emerging choreographer, especially given that they already have McGregor as their contemporary offering. 

 

But I do like the fact that Toonga is representing more diversity of race and economic background in the world of choreography - which is needed, I think. If they had worked with him a few times (e.g. for Linbury work) but had someone else as the emerging choreographer for main stage ballet works specifically, that would make more sense.

Edited August 13, 2023 by art_enthusiast

[Fonty]

20 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

 

I suppose Northern Ballet mostly perform dance theatre because they tend to perform story ballets in the classical idiom but (for some reason I don't understand) most people on this forum don't see them as a classical company.  They do have the ability to dance in truly classical ballet if you consider their performances in the very traditional Giselle some years ago and (it it counts as truly classical) their much acclaimed McMillan triple bill a few years ago.

 

To add into the equation previously BRB (probably more when SWRB) were often described as a Demi-caractère company.

 

Matthew Bourne's company would be my idea of dance theatre.

 

Goodness, that was very insulting to SWRB, surely?  Maybe I am reading this the wrong way, but to me Demi-caractère  implies it is somehow a lesser company?  Not capable of putting on the pure classical ballets.  Which is nonsense, because I have vivid memories of seeing them perform Swan Lake when I was very young, and igniting my passion for ballet.  And such a description could never be given to BRB now. 

 

I haven't seen as much of Northern Ballet as I would like, but I consider them to be a classical company.   I adore Matthew Bourne, and I suppose dance theatre is a good way of describing his ballets.  I actually find his version of Swan Lake as moving, if not more so, than that RB's version.   And I really like his Nutcracker as well.  Although he didn't study ballet as a child, I find much of his work to be balletic, with  wonderfully graceful movement.

 

On the subject of Matthew Bourne, he puts wit and humour into his work.  Why is it that contemporary ballet seems to be based on rage and pain?  At least, that is my impression.  Come on, McGregor, give us a laugh occasionally!

[Guest oncnp]

27 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

  Come on, McGregor, give us a laugh occasionally!

The only thing I recall about my first (and last) Dante (aside from the dreadful bathrobe costumes) was a scene where the men were popping up and down out of a cloud. No idea what it was meant to represent but it was funny. Not sure it was intended to be though. 

[LinMM]

To me only the first Act of Dante is really worth seeing, less so the second Act but bits okay and the third Act a bore! So won’t be going this time around as these days don’t want to spend money where I feel

fairly muted about going anyway and would almost certainly have to leave after Act 2!! 

[MAB]

I saw Dante in Paris last May and the audience went crazy for it.  Mind you it is a cut above the non classical rep the Parisians have to endure.

[Jan McNulty]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 

Goodness, that was very insulting to SWRB, surely?  Maybe I am reading this the wrong way, but to me Demi-caractère  implies it is somehow a lesser company?  Not capable of putting on the pure classical ballets.  Which is nonsense, because I have vivid memories of seeing them perform Swan Lake when I was very young, and igniting my passion for ballet.  And such a description could never be given to BRB now. 

 

It wasn't an insult at all.  I assume it would relate to the rep they performed:

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demi-caractère

 

[Pas de Quatre]

23 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

To add into the equation previously BRB (probably more when SWRB) were often described as a Demi-caractère company.

As I remember it SWRB were simply the touring company of RB and had a very similar repertoire, so definitely Classical.  

 

If you star defining ballets in that way, Giselle Act 1 is Demi-caractère and Act 2 is Classical.

 

With regard to contemporary, there are some lovely joyful, musical dances such as those by Richard Alton, Glen Tetley and Paul Taylor, but angst is very fashionable at the moment.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Pas de Quatre
add 2nd para

[bridiem]

18 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

With regard to contemporary, there are some lovely joyful, musical dances such as those by Richard Alton, Glen Tetley and Paul Taylor, but angst is very fashionable at the moment.

 

Also Mark Morris.

[MAB]

Similar but different.  In the days when the RB had lengthy NY seasons most years, the touring company moved into ROH.  Wonderful opportunities to see their dancers in familiar roles and dancing their own rep.  All classical back then.

[MJW]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

To me only the first Act of Dante is really worth seeing, less so the second Act but bits okay and the third Act a bore! So won’t be going this time around as these days don’t want to spend money where I feel

fairly muted about going anyway and would almost certainly have to leave after Act 2!! 

 

That's why I am going to the general rehearsal - if I don't like it at least I won't have spent too much money!

[Pas de Quatre]

Mark Morris Snowflakes

 

I love Mark Morris ballets. It's difficult to choose a favourite,  but his Hard Nut is fabulous. In particular the Snowflakes scene where male and female dancers wear the same costumes and dance the same steps, just makes you want to join in. Mind you I have also quite fancied dancing the role of the tipsy mother at the party too! 

Likewise with Matthew Bourne's swans, I just want to dance along. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Pas de Quatre
add link

[Emeralds]

On 12/08/2023 at 13:43, art_enthusiast said:

so what's the difference between contemporary/dance theatre exactly?

The names of companies eg Nederlands Dans Theater, the former outstanding British company London Contemporary Dance Theatre, Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater, etc can be confusing ...or rather, we might not be using them the way the terms were originally intended. 

 

These companies were and still are contemporary dance companies. I think, when @Bruce Wall says Royal Ballet has become, in his opinion,  “Royal Dance Theatre”, he doesn’t mean they’ve metamorphosed into a contemporary dance company, but that they are no longer purely classical, but a classical ballet company that performs many varieties of styles and doesn’t always perform some classical works eg some Balanchine ballets- to the same standard as their traditional classics (Giselle, Sleeping Beauty, Swan Lake etc) but the same could be said of a large number of companies that stage Balanchine. I think the reports of RB’s classical death are greatly exaggerated though. 

 

The Balanchine ballets do have accredited stagers who have mostly trained and danced at NYCB so if there are any major flaws in the performances, one may have to be ask the stagers (which include some of NYCB’s most eminent alumni) why.

 

The fact is that a) I don’t think Balanchine himself wanted his ballets to be preserved in aspic and performed as carbon copies of the first casts who danced them- he himself did alter his old choreography  if his principal dancer or lead dancer was injured or had an old injury, b) we could say the same of some companies dancing Ashton or MacMillan - “not as good as Royal Ballet”.  But I think as long as the companies dance it in the correct spirit and aim of the ballet, they don’t have to be technically perfect or better than /exactly as good as the original company, or there will be a lot of cancelled runs, which is not fun for audiences or dancers.

 

I would rather see, for example Ashton’s ballets performed by a “not perfect” small or medium company than not danced at all. But a large company that has resources and dancers to dance an Ashton well should do so- I would not like to see a major company dance eg Fille or Marguerite and Armand in a  “quasi Vaganova style” to such an altered extent that it looks like a completely different work. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Emeralds

[Emeralds]

I’ve seen McGregor’s works for his own company, a contemporary dance company, and they are different to what he creates for RB- eg they don’t dance Woolf Works, Yugen, Dante Project, etc which requires strong classical technique in the whole company. Some works like Chroma, Qualia, Dyad, could be danced by both classical and contemporary companies, and they are. 

 

Northern Ballet is a classical company and not a contemporary ballet or contemporary dance company. Their performances of Gloria and guest solos in Elite Syncopations with the Royal Ballet showed they can perform classical works as well as RB, BRB, ENB etc. They developed the niche for story ballets that were made in the twentieth and 21st century (notably Gillian Lynne’s A Simple Man and Christopher Gable’s versions of the classics) which became very popular because no other British company did them like that. Eg instead of a traditional pas de deux with balances, promenades and traditional pirouettes and fouettes, they were in a more fluid style, ie they danced like you expect normal people to move and interact, except with graceful dance passages, which at the time was radical and won them many fans- subsequent choreographer directors of the company continued that style, right up to David Nixon. I expect they don’t stage the classics in traditional Peter Wright/Mary Skeaping/Ashton style because you need large casts for those and they are not a large company. It could potentially reduce ENB & BRB’s market share in those classics if/when they tour the same venues. But the main issue is the size (numbers of dancers, musicians and financial resources) of the company.  What they do now is excellent - from their dancers to their orchestra- and I’m happy with it: their unique repertoire brings originality and creativity to audiences. 

 

I would put NB in a similar style category as Hamburg Ballet (John Neumeier), Stuttgart Ballet (John Cranko), Ballett Zurich under Christian Spuck, and before his retirement, death and the change of the company, Roland Petit’s Ballet de Marseille, Washington Ballet in the 1980s to 2000, Joffrey Ballet before they moved to Chicago (although Joffrey was large enough to stage a traditional La Fille mal Gardee and Petrushka!). Now, it depends on whether members here call those companies classical ballet, contemporary ballet or classical dance theatre! I myself don’t really pick any “classification” because I don’t think one can put art into boxes/pigeonholes. New works can surprise us all the time. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Emeralds

[Emeralds]

23 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I hadn't realised that Nederland's Dans Theatre was originally a British company.

ARGH- my awful device.....again!! It was supposed to go next to LCDT, after I altered the acronyms to spell them out. I don’t suppose you are free to alter it as a moderator .....oh wait, I managed to do it before the 30min cut off time! Yahoo!  Thank you Jan, for pointing it out so quickly. 🙏

[Pas de Quatre]

It is funny how the fashion for names of companies changes. Western Theatre ballet became Scottish Theatre Ballet and then eventually Scottish Ballet. Northern Dance Theatre also changed and became Northern Ballet.