Classical V. Contemporary Choreography

[bangorballetboy]

30 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

 

 

I've just looked at the ROH website to check which pieces on the list will be done by the RB & which by Sarasota Ballet but I can only find the RB Ashton bills & can't find the Sarasota Ballet performances listed. Am I missing something or are they not on there yet?

 

It's all in the season press release (which is somewhere on this forum) but can also be found here.

 

[jmhopton]

3 hours ago, OnePigeon said:

Which is why I think it’s so very important right now to get the Ashton works taught and recorded properly by the artists who worked with him, before it’s too late.  When they’re gone, it’s gone.  I can’t imagine the Balanchine foundation being so cavalier in their attitude.  Thank goodness for Sarasota, though it does us as a UK audience little good, at least they’re passing on the tradition.

 

 What I've said before, many times, OnePigeon. In a way it is happening slowly as the Ashton Foundation do their Masterclasses which are coached by people who knew his works well well, and filmed and collected them on their website.

 

I've provided the general link to their website.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-VFxoZ0k5S4n8bU3LUB6kw/videos?view=0&sort=dd

 

Their rehearsal of Blessed Spirits by Anthony Dowell, performed by Vadim, led to Vadim performing it on the ROH stage, and the Hamlet and Ophelia rehearsal done for the filmed doc. Links in the Chain may have lead to it being performed on the main stage next summer. They also did a rehearsal session on Les Rendezvous which is another ballet featured next summer. So, small steps but every little helps.

 

I do find the report that animals may be being excluded backstage a bit worrying. Something I might ask Kevin about if I see him at the stage door next season. I suppose you could perform Fille without a pony. It would be a loss to the production but still possible. But I don't see how you could perform 2 Pigeons without pigeons unless you created some sort of electronic version. Bizarre and not at all in the spirit of Ashton. Two Pigeons is one of my favourite ballets as well.

[OnePigeon]

I love watching those masterclasses.  I do feel sad seeing Ronald Hynd and Anthony Dowell physically struggling when they were once so incredibly fit and strong.  
 

Does anyone know when Voices of Spring was last performed?

 

[Ondine]

It may not be the case that the pony and the pigeons are banned, and that Fille won't be danced because of sensitivities around Alain etc.  It's none of it confirmed. 

 

Of course, Widow Simone is a parody of a female (in the panto dame tradition) and As A Woman I could be offended.  (No!)  She / he / they (there's that pronouns issue to contend with) also spanks Lise. Child abuse?  Doesn't bear thinking about!

 

My main fear is that it has been decided to retire the ballet for now to 'update' it with new designs.  That would be awful.

 

 

[Sim]

4 minutes ago, OnePigeon said:

I love watching those masterclasses.  I do feel sad seeing Ronald Hynd and Anthony Dowell physically struggling when they were once so incredibly fit and strong.  
 

Does anyone know when Voices of Spring was last performed?

 

Didn't Anna-Rose O'Sullivan do it with Marcelino Sambe relatively recently, perhaps a gala of some kind?  I'm sure I remember them doing it at the ROH....unless I'm going totally bonkers!!

[Ondine]

6 minutes ago, OnePigeon said:

Voices of Spring

 

Not so long ago, Marcelino Sambe and Anna Rose O' Sullivan? 

[Ondine]

19 minutes ago, Sim said:

unless I'm going totally bonkers!!

 

I couldn't possibly comment... 

 

It's on Youtube.  June 2021

 

Also just found the whole of Two Pigeons Lauren Cuthbertson and Vadim Mintigorov but it's not official so can't link.

 

(Also all of Apollo, Matthew Ball Melissa Hamilton Fumi Kaneko Claire Calvert Could vanish quite soon so watch while you can.)

 

This is official so enjoy.

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ondine

[LinMM]

Yes I found the Cuthbertson/ Muntagirov Two Pigeons and tried to post the final pas de deux here …..for completely different reasons ( nothing to do with this thread) but it had to be removed unfortunately. 

Personally I cannot see that “Peregrine” should be removed from Fille or the two real pigeons from the Ballet for animal cruelty reasons. 
It feels like this could be a convenient cover for not performing these ballets for entirely other reasons which seem to be rather shrouded in mystery…..perhaps a new Peregrine is having to be trained up? 
I sincerely hope though we can see both these ballets within the next 2 years as they are both a delight …so much more offensive theatre around! 
 

[Ondine]

In the touring company days I can quite see that in some theatres, getting a pony on stage would have been a challenge.

 

 

 

 

I've also seen the pigeons misbehave and fly around the auditorium.  That was fun. 🤭

 

And we are getting off the topic... 😏

[alison]

So what's new? 😀

[bridiem]

Perhaps Peregrine would prefer to be in a Wayne McGregor piece.

[alison]

4 hours ago, Ondine said:

 I am interested to know who will dance the Isadora. 

 

Cuthbertson? Pajdak?

[Ondine]

If Padjak has returned it's possible. She's certainly danced it before.  Cuthbertson would be lovely.

 

Or someone newly promoted?   Gasparini would be an interesting choice...

[Ondine]

10 minutes ago, bridiem said:

Perhaps Peregrine would prefer to be in a Wayne McGregor piece.

 

 

Well now. That WOULD be different!  Though neigh, I suspect he prefers Ashton's choreography. His Fille role could be expanded, his talents more widely harnessed.   His pas de cheval is beautifully executed I hear, cabrioles crisply beaten.

 

I'll get me coat.

[SheilaC]

The next Ashton masterclass dates have just been announced.

The October one is Sunday 15, focusing on the Awakening pas de deux in Sleeping Beauty , led by Dowell.

The second one will be on Sunday 18 February, so far no information on the coach or ballet piece.

[Richard LH]

Isn't RB's acknowledgement of the start of "Ashton Worldwide" rather underwhelming, given there are only 10 (5 each) dates for the two Ashton triple bills this season? Not conducive to the widest range of dancers practicising his work and getting a good number of performances under their belts. 

[Jan McNulty]

So where do story ballets such as those performed by Northern Ballet fit in?  Or David Bintley's magical Hobson's Choice, Madding Crowd, Cyrano?

 

 

[Fonty]

I cannot load the Ashton foundation website at the moment, as I am abroad and it says the website is not secure.  I notice a tab that says "Ashton Ownership" which I assume contains a complete list of his ballets and who owns the rights to them.  It is obviously too late to question why Ashton chose to bequeath his ballets in that way; is that normal for ballet ownership?  What happens if the original owner dies without any instruction as to what to do with the rights in the future?  Does the piece just drift into oblivion?  Alternatively, if the current owner has no interest in ballet, why not just hand it over to the Ashton foundation?  I have no knowledge of these things, would a huge amount of money be involved in purchasing the rights?  Exactly how does it work in the arts world?

 

And what exactly are they doing to La Fille?  We waited ages and ages for the new Cinderella.  The result was hugely elaborate stage sets for the second act, which I got used to, but it did seem a pity that the ballet had been out of action for so long just for that reason.  What on earth could they do to Fille?  Get rid of the summery colours and redo it in somber tones?  Or worse, redesign in such garish shades that you need sunglasses to watch? 

[LinMM]

My problem is I’ve never seen any of the Contemporary Companies that choreographers for the RB like McGregor say  create for …so don’t have any idea of just how different …or not…as it were these works would look to the works created for RB. I can only guess that they would be rather different or why would McGregor want to work with trained ballet dancers as opposed to trained Contemporary dancers. So I’m not sure just how “contemporary” the RB really is (or is becoming) in style in the general scheme of things. 

 

However Ballet is a highly trained style/ art form and so any ballet company does need to acquire choreography which expresses this high level of training as a large part of its Rep. or dancers will start to lose that expertise. 
I love Indian Classical dancing which requires a lot of training but don’t mind the odd bit of “Bollywood” too!
But it would be a poor thing if there were to be only Bollywood on offer. 
 

Contemporary Dance  has  a huge umbrella / range of styles these days …thinking of the Rambert as the most “balletic” of Contemporary Companies I have seen….and I would put ( I think) the RB ….when dancing more contemporary works on the very edge of this umbrella….so far anyway. 

I definitely think of Northern Ballet as a Ballet rather than Contemporary Company though perhaps crosses the fine line between pure Ballet and Dance Theatre which some worry the RB may be crossing too frequently. 
 

I think for me though it’s not always which is the Dance style I want to see (although classical ballet has always been my first love)  but the quality of the individual work on offer in any particular style

so : is the choreography interesting, does it relate to the music, does the staging of the work enhance the experience, are you drawn into the movement/story, are the dancers convincing in roles or what being asked to perform, etc etc etc. 

I could be bored at a classical performance and fully engaged at a more contemporary one but I suppose would expect to see ..largely anyway …contemporary works with  a contemporary company and more classical dance with a ballet company. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alison]

I can't see any reason why anyone should be redesigning fille.

[Ondine]

I hope not, the Osbert Lancaster designs can rightly be said to be 'iconic'!  But you never know....

[Jan McNulty]

54 minutes ago, LinMM said:

My problem is I’ve never seen any of the Contemporary Companies that choreographers for the RB like McGregor say  create for …so don’t have any idea of just how different …or not…as it were these works would look to the works created for RB. I can only guess that they would be rather different or why would McGregor want to work with trained ballet dancers as opposed to trained Contemporary dancers. So I’m not sure just how “contemporary” the RB really is (or is becoming) in style in the general scheme of things. 

 

 

 

I've seen Wayne McGregor's company over the years and have found that the dancers he employs have a variety of training background.  A dancer I know, who had been trained in classical ballet and danced with a classical company, joined his company a few months before the first lockdown.

 

I don't think that he has a permanent company of dancers but employs them when he has a project coming up.

 

I absolutely LOVED Tree of Codes which he created in collaboration with POB.  I'm not overly keen on driving into the centre of Manchester so had only booked for the world premiere but was so enamoured I booked another performance the minute I go home.

 

What I find interesting is that most (but not all) ballet-trained dancers can perform well in many different genres and not just classical ballet.

[LinMM]

Absolutely agree about that ..in theory a classically trained dancer should have the greatest degree of freedom of movement in the body. 
Precisely performing some particularly unique style is a different issue of course and may take some time to acquire if not specifically trained in it but dancers not trained classically at all although they may have brilliant performance in a style they have trained in can never really have the range of a classically trained dancer. 
It could be this which May fascinate McGregor to work with RB 

[art_enthusiast]

so what's the difference between contemporary/dance theatre exactly?

[Dawnstar]

4 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

So where do story ballets such as those performed by Northern Ballet fit in?  Or David Bintley's magical Hobson's Choice, Madding Crowd, Cyrano?

 

The only one of these I've seen is Hobson's Choice & that seemed to me to be definitely ballet in choreographic style rather than contemporary.

[Odyssey]

I have seen these Bintley ballets, albeit some time ago, and I would say these story ballets are firmly rooted in the classical tradition. However, Edward II which I recall I found very interesting and powerful,  is more a dance drama.

[Missfrankiecat]

3 hours ago, alison said:

I can't see any reason why anyone should be redesigning fille.

Me neither.  The last times I saw it at CG, it still looked enchanting.  It's a wonderful piece, suitable for adults and children alike - also for 'first timers' who are reticent to watch any classical ballet beyond Nutcracker at Christmas.  I have taken several reluctant/uncertain friends to see Fille over the years and it has always been greatly enjoyed.  At the same time, it contains all the Ashton tropes and some of the fiendish choreography which looks so easy to those of us who don't have to do it.  I really hope the concerns that it may be being 'cancelled' or otherwise neglected, are unfounded.  Ashton and MacMillan are the jewels in RB's crown as far as I am concerned and the powers that be are mad if they don't recognise how influential the chance to dance these works regularly, coached by those who worked in a direct line from the originators, has been in recruiting great dancers to London, as well as delighting audiences.

[Sim]

6 minutes ago, Missfrankiecat said:

Me neither.  The last times I saw it at CG, it still looked enchanting.  It's a wonderful piece, suitable for adults and children alike - also for 'first timers' who are reticent to watch any classical ballet beyond Nutcracker at Christmas.  I have taken several reluctant/uncertain friends to see Fille over the years and it has always been greatly enjoyed.  At the same time, it contains all the Ashton tropes and some of the fiendish choreography which looks so easy to those of us who don't have to do it.  I really hope the concerns that it may be being 'cancelled' or otherwise neglected, are unfounded.  Ashton and MacMillan are the jewels in RB's crown as far as I am concerned and the powers that be are mad if they don't recognise how influential the chance to dance these works regularly, coached by those who worked in a direct line from the originators, has been in recruiting great dancers to London, as well as delighting audiences.

Well said, and I couldn't agree more.  There is something for everyone in it, and to rob audiences of it would be a crime.

[Bruce Wall]

1 minute ago, Sim said:

Well said, and I couldn't agree more.  There is something for everyone in it, and to rob audiences of it would be a crime.

 

and ... at least for me .... just 'bits' will not suffice.  

[Ondine]

Is this a case of rumour spreading? Beyond this forum, has anyone had a whisper that Fille is 'cancelled'?  If not perhaps this is simply alarmist?

 

Apart from Alain, Widow Simone, the pony, the harsh, degrading and cruel beating of poor Lise, not to mention the fire risk of locking her in alone...  it's all fine... 🤨

 

[Jan McNulty]

8 minutes ago, art_enthusiast said:

so what's the difference between contemporary/dance theatre exactly?

 

Who knows???

 

I suppose Northern Ballet mostly perform dance theatre because they tend to perform story ballets in the classical idiom but (for some reason I don't understand) most people on this forum don't see them as a classical company.  They do have the ability to dance in truly classical ballet if you consider their performances in the very traditional Giselle some years ago and (it it counts as truly classical) their much acclaimed McMillan triple bill a few years ago.

 

To add into the equation previously BRB (probably more when SWRB) were often described as a Demi-caractère company.

 

Matthew Bourne's company would be my idea of dance theatre.

[Ondine]

Well... I reckon a ballet company is one where company class is a trad ballet class daily. Barre, centre,  etc.

 

It's not based on Graham technique or anything else technique.

 

https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/excerpt/martha-graham-ndash-the-graham-technique

 

I'm sure others will have their own opinions...

 

 

 

[Ondine]

15 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Apart from Alain, Widow Simone, the pony, the harsh, degrading and cruel beating of poor Lise, not to mention the fire risk of locking her in alone...  it's all fine... 🤨

 

The arranged marriage?

 

Crikey. The list grows... 😐