Royal Ballet's Swan Lake (Spring 2022)

[JennyTaylor]

What a fascinating discussion. Personally, I find the Rose Adagio far more nerve wracking, possibly because it goes on for far longer and there is far more propensity for mistakes. I saw both Anna-Rose and Frankie's debuts in this role and they were both tear jerkingly wonderful.  I saw Anna-Rose in rehearsal for Swan Lake and there were no mishaps. I was nervous for Frankie yesterday as I had read reviews of her first performance but it was all going so well in up to that point. For me, her less than perfect execution didn't really detract from the whole performance because it had so much depth in characterisation and chemistry with Will Bracewell, it didn't seem so important. Will was magnificent in his execution - though still different from Vadim and Cesar Corrales. He held one arabesque for so long, there were gasps from the audience. This was so in time with the music but so different from anyone else that it was breath-taking.  Beautiful, I suppose.  It just shows that you don't have to do exactly the same "showy" steps to get a reaction.  I also don't think of Francesca as a "showy" dancer. Is that what is required to play Odile successfully -  discuss -  but I don't think so really?  Of course, compared the Marianela's single, double and treble turns, all perfectly in time with the music, she fell short, but this was only her 2nd performance in the role. 

 

I was very curious with one comment on the Forum about Yasmine, Frankie and Anna-Rose all having graduated via Royal Lodge. What an interesting thought.  Surely any budding ballerina dreams of and practices these fouettés from the year dot?

[TomS]

I really liked Hayward's role debut, so I managed to buy a return ticket to see how Hayward comes back, fouettes included. It was a bit unfortunate, but she is still one of my favorite Odette/Odille of seven so far. 

Even in Fonteyn's 1967 video with Nureyev on YouTube, she did only 14.5/16 bars of the music, so it does happen.

Howver, it's a legacy for more than 100 years since Pierina Legnani did it in Swan Lake's revival with Petipa & Ivanov, and as iconic as four little swans, I must to say dancers must be ready for this when it comes to Swan Lake. Magri, Nagdhi, Nunez, Osipova and Kaneko all did well including the doubles. Kaneko did double-double, if I recall correctly. 

I just want to say it's a part of it just like any other parts. I don't want to make a big deal out of it, but will be happy to see good ones. 

 

[capybara]

1 hour ago, JennyTaylor said:

I was very curious with one comment on the Forum about Yasmine, Frankie and Anna-Rose all having graduated via Royal Lodge. What an interesting thought.  Surely any budding ballerina dreams of and practices these fouettés from the year dot?

All three, in common with Lauren Cuthbertson I believe, trained at the RBS’s White Lodge before going to the Upper School whereas their contemporary South American and Japanese Principals grew up under a different regime where possibly more emphasis is placed on technical prowess and, indeed, on competition entry where fouettés are very much in evidence.

[Dawnstar]

I apologise to those who I have annoyed by mentioning the fouettees in my post last night. I actually did it primarily to reassure people who saw/read about O'Sullivan's fall at her first performance that yesterday she was alright. I didn't mention anything else because I was too tired by that point to think straight, not because I wanted to emphasise the fouettees to the exclusion of everything else. I had no idea that my single sentence would annoy people enough to kick off a whole discussion. I'm so sorry. As I can't seem to say anything on here without accidentally annoying people so I'd better not say anything else about yesterday's performances.

[Florine]

4 hours ago, JennyTaylor said:

What a fascinating discussion. Personally, I find the Rose Adagio far more nerve wracking, possibly because it goes on for far longer and there is far more propensity for mistakes. I saw both Anna-Rose and Frankie's debuts in this role and they were both tear jerkingly wonderful.  I saw Anna-Rose in rehearsal for Swan Lake and there were no mishaps. I was nervous for Frankie yesterday as I had read reviews of her first performance but it was all going so well in up to that point. For me, her less than perfect execution didn't really detract from the whole performance because it had so much depth in characterisation and chemistry with Will Bracewell, it didn't seem so important. Will was magnificent in his execution - though still different from Vadim and Cesar Corrales. He held one arabesque for so long, there were gasps from the audience. This was so in time with the music but so different from anyone else that it was breath-taking.  Beautiful, I suppose.  It just shows that you don't have to do exactly the same "showy" steps to get a reaction.  I also don't think of Francesca as a "showy" dancer. Is that what is required to play Odile successfully -  discuss -  but I don't think so really?  Of course, compared the Marianela's single, double and treble turns, all perfectly in time with the music, she fell short, but this was only her 2nd performance in the role. 

 

I was very curious with one comment on the Forum about Yasmine, Frankie and Anna-Rose all having graduated via Royal Lodge. What an interesting thought.  Surely any budding ballerina dreams of and practices these fouettés from the year dot?

 

13 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

I agree that performances should not be judged to stand or fall by the things but I've now seen three debutante or near-debutante dancers struggle with the fouettés in this production: Hayward, O'Sullivan and back in 2018 on her debut Naghdi.

 

Genuine question: is it a coincidence that they all came from White Lodge?

 

With you all the way Jenny, beautifully articulated (see above) and very much in agreement. Regards all three recent debutantes coming from WL: 

 

I don't remember Naghdi struggling with the fouettés in 2018. WL/RBS has its own training syllabus that is much more nuanced and, I'd argue, balanced, than many national schools globally. Of course fouetté's are part of it, but they aren't a focus. 

 

Some dancers are natural turners, some have natural elevation etc. And yes, in some schools the focus is on fireworks like fouetté's. It is very rare for all aspects of training, interpretation and physiology to come together for every single (for the purpose of this debate let's say) 'classic'. 

 

As has been noted, pressure comes into it; having a bad day comes into it. Getting behind the music by throwing in a double on on the fourth (as O'Sullivan on her swan debut) and subsequently trying to catch up with momentum throwing you off balance (think of a top) comes into it. Hayward had the weight of debut expectation just before lockdowns to deal with on top of newly awakened expectations, but will never be a 'natural' turner in the way she is a natural Ashtonian/MacMillan interpreter. 

 

Ospiova is a natural turner, but delicate choreography can leave her feet looking buttery, and her arms are characteristically Russian even now. 

 

There isn't a 'right' or 'wrong': we all prefer different things. Of course, when the fouetté's are pulled off  - like Aurora's balances - they are noteworthy and additive, but (as already stated in my forum debut) for me, they are not the sum of a performance parts. 

 

With regard to counting the fouetté's, if you've done them many times and know the music, there probably isn't any need to count? 

[Florine]

1 hour ago, capybara said:

All three, in common with Lauren Cuthbertson I believe, trained at the RBS’s White Lodge before going to the Upper School whereas their contemporary South American and Japanese Principals grew up under a different regime where possibly more emphasis is placed on technical prowess and, indeed, on competition entry where fouettés are very much in evidence.

You've summed it up in a nutshell 🙂 

[Florine]

In the 2017/18 SL run, Osipova omitted the act 3 fouettés in favour of piqué turns in all her shows. 

 

Changing the subject: the ghost of Liam Scarlett will forever hover over this production for me. I am so glad he kept the Ashton Neapolitan pdd, one in which he was often cast and memorably performed. In the wake of all that has gone, it is a kind of positive valediction to him. 

[Scheherezade]

1 hour ago, Dawnstar said:

I apologise to those who I have annoyed by mentioning the fouettees in my post last night… As I can't seem to say anything on here without accidentally annoying people so I'd better not say anything else about yesterday's performances.

Dawnstar, I’d be very surprised if you annoyed anyone with your post. The importance or otherwise of the fouettés is a totally valid discussion point, as witnessed by the range of opinions posted by way of reply, so please don’t hold back with your views on the rest of the performance. 

[CCL]

Dawnstar, I’d very much like to hear your thoughts on Friday’s performances. A persistent back problem has prevented me from attending any of the recent Swan Lake shows so everybody’s comments on this run of performances has been extremely welcome. 

[Mary]

6 minutes ago, CCL said:

Dawnstar, I’d very much like to hear your thoughts on Friday’s performances. A persistent back problem has prevented me from attending any of the recent Swan Lake shows so everybody’s comments on this run of performances has been extremely welcome. 

Seconded.

 

 

 

[Swan]

@Dawnstar, as a newbie to this forum I enjoy reading everyone’s comments and have found the fouettés discussion fascinating. Please continue to post your thoughts and, like others, I look forward to hearing about Fridays performances. I attended my first ever double performance last Tuesday and it was amazing! I travelled home exhausted, exhilarated and full of joy at having had the privilege of watching so many wonderful dancers in just one day!

[Fonty]

11 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

I apologise to those who I have annoyed by mentioning the fouettees in my post last night. I actually did it primarily to reassure people who saw/read about O'Sullivan's fall at her first performance that yesterday she was alright. I didn't mention anything else because I was too tired by that point to think straight, not because I wanted to emphasise the fouettees to the exclusion of everything else. I had no idea that my single sentence would annoy people enough to kick off a whole discussion. I'm so sorry. As I can't seem to say anything on here without accidentally annoying people so I'd better not say anything else about yesterday's performances.

 

Speaking personally, I wasn't the slightest bit annoyed by your mentioning them, and I didn't think for one minute you were giving them too much emphasis.  I have found the subsequent discussion very interesting.

[emmarose]

I haven't seen anyone say they were annoyed by the post that mentioned the fouettes @Dawnstar, I actually wondered how both managed them the other day. 

 

I haven't seen anyone ever say they were annoyed by your posts but you've expressed that they are a few times, are people saying that elsewhere? I've never once seen it on the threads of the forum.

 

 

A post may create a debate about something, that doesn't mean annoyance, it's just part of a wider conversation.

Edited March 27, 2022 by emmarose

[Mary]

That's right emmarose.

I expect many of us have, at some or other. felt a bit sensitive, a bit 'got at ; or something about reactions to a post, or thought 'I wish I hadn't said that'

However, it is usually not necessary.

 

Anyway, the fouette debate has to take place every time we have a Swan Lake season- that is a strict rule.....so it would happen anyway...

 

 

[Fonty]

It is indeed compulsory to discuss fouettes. 🙂

 

Diverging slightly (but only slightly as it has already been mentioned) with regard to the topic of Italian fouettes, I am assuming these are even more difficult?  They certainly look it, at least every time I have seen them performed.  With the right dancer these look absolutely wonderful, really graceful. 

[art_enthusiast]

5 hours ago, Fonty said:

It is indeed compulsory to discuss fouettes. 🙂

 

I think it's interesting and I agree with many of the opinions on here. It's not so much the fouettés themselves but their purpose - hypnotising Siegfried, the audience, whoever - so if there's obvious difficulty the audience will undoubtedly notice. 

I think that one of the most important skills a principal dancer must have is to presumably be aware of their own strengths and how far they can take risks. For example, if you know you're about to fall out of something - end it and go into something more manageable, like the pique turns. If done smoothly, everyone will assume that's what you intended all along.
I didn't see Osipova in 2018 or O'Sullivan's second performance, but if that's what happened on those occasions then good for them. It's much better to compromise on a piece of choreography rather than risk doing it all and then causing yourself an injury.
I found myself quite shortchanged by Hayward's first performance as I found it slightly obvious that the fouettés were stopped early and I don't think much was done to replace that part of the music/tension of the Act - e.g. by pique turns or some other piece of improvisation that could presumably be slotted in. That's part of being a professional, I believe - to improvise and cover up mistakes on stage.

Of course, being a debut - as it was for both of them - it's definitely harder. Also, as these are much hyped post-pandemic debuts, there's even more expectation and tension involved. I was very impressed by O'Sullivan's debut as minus the slight fall, she did extremely well and her Odette was simply stunning.

 

[JennyTaylor]

Interesting isn’t it. All the different Siegfried’s are doing variations on a theme in their performances, so why can’t the Odiles do the same? I’ve gasped at Vadim, Cesar, Marci and Will - all for different reasons. I’m sure I could do the same for the ballerinas. 

[Lizbie1]

20 minutes ago, art_enthusiast said:

I didn't see Osipova in 2018 or O'Sullivan's second performance, but if that's what happened on those occasions then good for them.

 

Osipova did piqué turns (which were thrillingly fast, by the way!) from the start in both of her 2018 performances and IIRC it emerged later that she had either been carrying a slight injury or was worried she wasn't fully recovered from one, I don't remember which.

[DrewCo]

4 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

Osipova did piqué turns (which were thrillingly fast, by the way!) from the start in both of her 2018 performances and IIRC it emerged later that she had either been carrying a slight injury or was worried she wasn't fully recovered from one, I don't remember which.

 Osipova's piqué turns in 2019 were indeed thrillingly fast--one benefit perhaps of having planned for them. I saw one of her later performances and knew what to expect from reading reports, but if I'm honest with myself I have to admit that if I hadn't been prepared, I might have been a wee bit disconcerted at the change -- even if she was dancing brilliantly.

 

(At least in the U.S. where I am -- I have always considered it established ballet-fan law that the fouettés in Swan Lake shall be discussed. Of course, that doesn't preclude occasional acts of civil disobedience...)

[Pas de Quatre]

I seem to remember that Russian companies didn't used to do the fouettés, their choreography had a fast manège of posé (piqué) turns and it was only towards the end of 20th century that they also adopted fouettés. 

[Florine]

On 26/03/2022 at 09:10, Odyssey said:

I’d add that it always surprises me when comments are made that a dancer achieved say 25 fouettés in the same breath as stating that they do not consider this technical aspect should be important in indicating a dancer’s ability to perform the role of Odile . So why do they start counting?

Anyone who has repeatedly done or performed 32 fouetté's to the Odile or Minkus music (or equivalent), does not need to start counting to know how many are achieved. Anyone very familiar with the music, even without the fouettés, would also probably be able to state the number with some accuracy. 

 

So it's not a matter of starting to count: it's arguably an innate performance understanding in the context of an entire interpretation that can sometimes contribute, in a different way, to a rounded/informed commentary of a dancer's ability to portray Odile (as argued in my previous post). 

 

That's not intended as criticism or any sort of 'put down', just to explain that it's not necessarily a matter of 'starting to count'. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Florine

[bridiem]

37 minutes ago, Florine said:

Anyone who has repeatedly done or performed 32 fouetté's to the Odile or Minkus music (or equivalent), does not need to start counting to know how many are achieved. Anyone very familiar with the music, even without the fouettés, would also probably be able to state the number with some accuracy. 

 

So it's not a matter of starting to count: it's arguably an innate performance understanding in the context of an entire interpretation that can sometimes contribute, in a different way, to a rounded/informed commentary of a dancer's ability to portray Odile (as argued in my previous post). 

 

That's not intended as criticism or any sort of 'put down', just to explain that it's not necessarily a matter of 'starting to count'. 

 

Yes - I never count, but it's clear if the fouettés are 'on track' or otherwise.

[FionaM]

Yes it’s been a fascinating discussion about fouettés and I have a better appreciation for how hard they are even for the best professionals.  
 

We could have a discussion another time when relevant about Italian fouettés which even fewer ballerinas can do well. 

[Pas de Quatre]

Frequently, problems with the fouettés are caused by not respecting the beat of the music.  It used to be that 32 single fouettés were done completely in time with the counts of the music.  Then people started throwing in the odd double turn (or even triple) without coming down.  A double takes longer than a single turn, but not as long as two turns with the plié in between, so the dancer is then across the music and often doesn't seem to have planned how many turns to fit in for each section, whether counting bars or musical phrase (8 bars) so eventually they lose their way and the timing becomes more and more random which also seems to affect balance and positioning! 

[cjp]

On 26/03/2022 at 23:48, Florine said:

I don't remember Naghdi struggling with the fouettés in 2018. WL/RBS has its own training syllabus that is much more nuanced and, I'd argue, balanced, than many national schools globally. Of course fouetté's are part of it, but they aren't a focus.

I am catching up with the fouettés discussion with interest and agree with the above, I saw Naghdi's Swan Lake debut at ROH in 2018 and don't remember any problems with her fouettés.  

 

I think the problem with the fouettés generally is that the music at this point demands something very dramatic, so if they are not performed, any alternative choreography needs to be suitable to the moment in terms of music and storyline to avoid a feeling of anticlimax, whether or not the audience is actually expecting the fouettés.  Many of them may not be (in fact I am always surprised in hearing conversations around me how few seem familiar with even the story of Swan Lake, even a couple of acts in - the synopsis is freely available!)

 

I don't particularly enjoy the fouettés as a spectacle in their own right, still less as some form of arbitrary test for a ballerina, but I think they arguably work in emphasising Odile's authority, her relentless assurance and total mastery at this point, as proven shortly afterwards in the denouement.  She is literally spinning a spell over the court and the prince and nearing her moment of triumph. 

 

Unfortunately as they are now famous, or maybe infamous, this moment in the ballet must hang heavily over all ballerinas, especially debutantes, who I am sure routinely perform them without issue in class and rehearsal when there isn't such a stress attached.

 

It does seem a good idea for dancers to have a plan B if the fouettés go awry, just because as others have mentioned, if it all goes wrong at this critical moment it does break the spell rather abruptly for the audience and dancer.  Even if we can see something has gone wrong, at least continuity allows things to get back on track and so it won't ultimately spoil a peformance which has been wonderful apart from that one moment.  

 

[Lizbie1]

8 minutes ago, cjp said:

I am catching up with the fouettés discussion with interest and agree with the above, I saw Naghdi's Swan Lake debut at ROH in 2018 and don't remember any problems with her fouettés.  

 

Since two people have now said this I thought I'd link to my post at the time (note further down that people with different vantage points felt differently):

 

 

[capybara]

7 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

Since two people have now said this I thought I'd link to my post at the time (note further down that people with different vantage points felt differently):

 

 

 

Yes, Yasmine Naghdi did have various problems with 'those fouettes' throughout the first season of Swan Lake, including In Madrid. The fact that she has mastered them now is possibly indicative not only of their difficulty but of the part which nerves surrounding them affect their execution by those new to the role of Odile.

[Sim]

1 hour ago, capybara said:

 

Yes, Yasmine Naghdi did have various problems with 'those fouettes' throughout the first season of Swan Lake, including In Madrid. The fact that she has mastered them now is possibly indicative not only of their difficulty but of the part which nerves surrounding them affect their execution by those new to the role of Odile.

If I remember correctly (and I saw all of her performances), she might have suffered from nerves a bit in her debut.  In her second and third performances she was doing doubles and triples in addition to singles, and like Fumi did this time, raising one of her arms above her head in a port de bras as she went around. So I don't remember it being 'throughout the first season'.

 

As the 'go to'  Principal replacement (as it would seem), soon after her debut performance she replaced Cuthbertson and danced with Bonelli, with whom she had little rehearsal time. 

 

I think we can excuse her if her fouettes weren't great in Madrid.  Yet again she was to the 'go to' replacement, and was asked with little notice to fly out there and replace both Cuthbertson and Osipova.  She came down with a terrible and debilitating chest infection.  They called a doctor to her hotel and he told her that under no circumstances should she dance.  But, drugged up with very strong antibiotics, dance she did....otherwise the whole thing would have had to be cancelled.  There was no announcement made to the audience that she was so ill; she just went out there and did her very best.  She danced two SLs in 48 hours, despite being ill.  

 

Whilst some dancers have done two Swan Lakes and can now rest (especially if they are not in the current triple), Yasmine has done four SLs with three different partners, is dancing her own two performances of this triple and will most likely do Akane's three performances if Miss Takada doesn't recover.   This is after having recently danced three SLs in a week, the final two of which were once again within 48 hours.  

 

Miss Naghdi has very strong technique, coupled with a beautiful and natural classicism, with thoughtful approaches to her role interpretations.  She also never seems to say no when she is asked to replace others, so does not always get the same amount of breaks and rest as other principals.  Despite all of this, there is almost never a wobble or an error in anything that she dances, so to bring up a couple of slightly imperfect performances from four years ago is a bit disingenuous, even if it's to show that she can now do the fouettes.  She could actually do them back then.

[Sharon]

Totally agree Sim.

I saw 2 of her performances in 2018 and there were absolutely no problems with her fouettes. She was whipping out doubles like there was no tomorrow. 

Yes dancers can have an 'off night'. But you are not having an off night if you continually mess up a turn you will have learnt years ago at school,  a turn you may practice daily in class. After all if you are a principal having a pristine technique should be a given, aswell as musicality and artistry and interpretive skills.

Yasmine Naghdi has all of these qualities in spades which is probably why she is the go to replacement when someone is injured.

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Frequently, problems with the fouettés are caused by not respecting the beat of the music.  It used to be that 32 single fouettés were done completely in time with the counts of the music.  Then people started throwing in the odd double turn (or even triple) without coming down.  A double takes longer than a single turn, but not as long as two turns with the plié in between, so the dancer is then across the music and often doesn't seem to have planned how many turns to fit in for each section, whether counting bars or musical phrase (8 bars) so eventually they lose their way and the timing becomes more and more random which also seems to affect balance and positioning! 

 

I'm not a teacher like you PdQ but you have expressed very eloquently what I think so thank you.

 

I have a personal preference for single fouettés done in time with the music - I think they look far more effective.  There is only one dancer I have seen who can whip them out so fast that the doubles and triples are also in time with the music (and I have seen even her have an off-night).

 

I've always assumed that when the music changes it gives the conductor a chance to finish early if the dancer does so that it still looks natural but that wouldn't work if the dancer tries to keep going.

 

Am I correct in thinking that if more than one turn is done it is technically not a fouetté?

[Lizbie1]

42 minutes ago, Sim said:

Despite all of this, there is almost never a wobble or an error in anything that she dances, so to bring up a couple of slightly imperfect performances from four years ago is a bit disingenuous, even if it's to show that she can now do the fouettes.  She could actually do them back then.

 

It was originally brought up (by me) simply as part of a broader question about former White Lodge students, not to make a point about Naghdi in particular.

[FionaM]

@Jan McNulty technically yes … if a dancer does 2 singles and 1 double in the same 4 counts that someone doing 4 singles would use, then yes the first dancer has done 3 fouettés and the second dancer has done 4.  However multiple turns (double, triple, more …!) are more difficult as the balance and timing can go off.  

Some do 3 singles and 1 fast double in 4 counts.  So that is upping the difficulty even further.  And that is then 4 fouettés (5 turns) in 4 counts. 
 

Others will spin on ‘through the music’ so that the turns don’t match the counts.  Not my preference usually, but it can be quite impressive if they keep their own rhythm going and it works.   Others like Alina Cojocaru and Svetlana Zakharova get the conductor to up the tempo so that they can whip out single fouettés at impressive speeds.  

[bridiem]

Francesca Hayward has posted this on her Instagram account, and I think it perhaps can usefully be read in the context of the above discussions: 'I’ve dreamt of dancing Odette and Odile since I was three years old. The reality of doing it was a whole lot harder than I ever imagined. This ballet is like a marathon to get through and I’m honestly very proud of myself for doing just that. I am the luckiest Swan Queen to have had @williambracewell as my Prince, it has been the biggest joy and honour to dance with him and I’ve absolutely treasured every second in the studio with him and with my coach Lesley Collier. I couldn’t have done any of the big ballets in my career without Lesley and it was truly special working with her on this iconic one. I hope I’ll have years more of learning how to master Swan Lake but it feels good to have finally started somewhere.'