Sim Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I don't follow either of them, but last night a friend posted up on Facebook a screenshot of a heated discussion on Twitter between Luke Jennings and Wayne McGregor. It started when LJ posted up a photo of a female dancer with one leg way above her head, leaving not much to the audience's imagination. LJ asked if this is what dance viewers wanted to see, and it descended from there. Each of them accused the other of being 'crotch obsessed' ! I wonder if anyone followed this last night? I think it is very interesting to hear both sides, one from the choreographer involved, the other from the critic. I must say I don't often agree with LJ on most things, but on this occasion I am with him all the way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Sim: I became aware of it as I started my shutdown last night, and it had run over the previous two hours or so - with some additional contributions from Cloud Dance Festival. Should you want to see what started it, have a look here or on the Twitter feed on DanceTabs: http://twitter.com/LukeJennings1/status/671413724805267456 From what I can tell, the last word was with Wayne McGregor at around 1130: http://twitter.com/WayneMcGregor/status/671474115967123456 Between those two posts I have to say that they both used Twitter's 140-character limit to a more creative extent than in any other argument that I recall there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Each of them accused the other of being 'crotch obsessed' ! Sounds fair enough to me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thanks so much for that, Ian. Very interesting to read the whole debate, with interjections from others. The photo used to start the debate is awful, and at first I couldn't even tell if it were a male or a female.... I think that what LJ is objecting to is the more and more frequently used 'spatchcock position' for female dancers in contemporary pieces. I agree with him in that I really don't like it, and don't particularly need someone's crotch being thrust at me from the stage. There is nothing lovely, erotic or shocking about it; I don't even think it is exploitative of the dancer....it is just ugly and presents the females in an unfortunate light (when there IS any light, that is). 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Evidently Ashton's influence on McGregor..I was never that keen on it in Monotones to be honest. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 That's an awful photo. Stills are worse than vide or live performance though as the effects are fixed rather than momentary. I feel that the trend for leotards / pants and vests without tights does exacerbate 'the problem' (if there is one). At the recent RNZB performance I was sitting quite close to the stage (row G?) and I found flashes of white knickered crotches as some of the female dancers with their backs to the audience lifted their legs in lowish arabesques pretty uncomfortable. I would have found it really embarrassing if I had been sitting in the front row (which was very close to the stage) looking directly into their crotches. You can understand why some dancers insist on approving photographs of themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 In light of this discussion, what do people think of the shot the ROH have selected to lead this year's Nutcracker advertising? http://www.roh.org.uk/showings/the-nutcracker-recorded-2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Not nearly as graphic (and that pose has been used before with Sarah Lamb, I believe). The dancer is wearing tights with pants over them and they form a seamless (!) whole with the rest of the costume. Of course, dancers' pants have always been seen since the advent of the short tutu and higher arabesques but the crotch wasn't being presented to the audience. I've noticed that tutus from the Fonteyn era seemed to sit higher with the result that the pants (certainly the bottoms) of the female dancers were more visible than they seem to be today. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 In light of this discussion, what do people think of the shot the ROH have selected to lead this year's Nutcracker advertising? http://www.roh.org.uk/showings/the-nutcracker-recorded-2009 Well, La Cuthbertson always looks beautiful - and at least she's wearing tights. It's an interesting debate on Twitter but I thought Wayne McGregor was a little rude, asking if Luke Jennings was crotch obsessed and having a mid-life crisis. Mr McGregor may be "gender and body part-blind" but not all of the poor folks in the front row of the stalls will be. His choreography combined with lack of tights and hideous vest and pant combos can be a little uncomfortable to watch when it is literally in your face. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 That Nutcracker shot (so to speak!) is not an absolutely terrible photo, which the other one was. Cameras always lie. Neither is erotic, assuming you're past the first flush of teenage hormones (in which case *everything* is erotic). As for the rest, possibly I've been desensitised by spending a couple hours a week with scantily dressed women, but I don't get it. And ballet *is* my mid life crisis. :-) (If we're going to go on a nether-regions-are-vulgar rant I'd rather see something done about the male assets on display. Seriously guys, get a decent dance belt.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Yes, it's about context and I think the difference is in part that the Sugar Plum in that picture has agency, is in control and is not being manipulated/(di)splayed by a partner. Anna, I agree that McGregor was extremely rude and seemed to think he could dictate to the audience what they should see. I was sceptical too about his claims to collaborative co-creation if that is the way he reacts to critical ideas (although I would question in any case the likelihood of any meaningful disagreement from dancers who want to be cast in his works). And I don't recall his choreographic credits ever being shared - his name is always firmly above the title. Which isn't to say that I don't like McGregor's work - much of it is interesting and Woolf Works was the best new thing I saw last year and, for me, best new creation at the ROH in a very long time. But a bit of self-reflection and listening to criticism never harmed any creative artist. "Cosiness" isn't healthy for an art form. Which I think also links to the points made in Joseph Carman's article on choreographers for Dance Magazine: http://dancemagazine.com/inside-dm/ballets-boys-club/ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Evidently Ashton's influence on McGregor..I was never that keen on it in Monotones to be honest. To me, the difference is that Ashton 'uses' his dancers beautifully and respectfully even when the movement is quite extreme. McGregor (most of the time) uses his dancers as bodies, not as people. Presumably that's his intention since he apparently takes pride in disregarding gender and the humanity of the human body. I have no interest in what the human body can do; I want to know what it can say. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I was joking about Ashton's influence on McGregor. Would that the influence were a bit stronger! However, Ashton did famously say that that move in Monotones was 'like a chicken on a spit' which does not sound all that respectful of the dancer as a person. Personally I love Ashton's work, but that particular move has always been my least favourite moment. I can't see that it is that different to some of McGregor's extreme postures. It's a very interesting distinction you make and I shall ponder it- I think McGregor is interested in humanity but whether he succeeds in showing that through dance is debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Talking of old fashioned tutus, they had lots of rows of ruffles of tulle on the briefs part. Starting at the top almost as long as the lower tiers of the tutu skirt and getting narrow lower down, so you hardly saw the outline of the body. They don't seem to be added these days. Personally although I love much contemporary work, I agree with LJ. In fact I find much of WM limited in vocabulary and rather boring. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I was joking about Ashton's influence on McGregor. Would that the influence were a bit stronger! However, Ashton did famously say that that move in Monotones was 'like a chicken on a spit' which does not sound all that respectful of the dancer as a person. Personally I love Ashton's work, but that particular move has always been my least favourite moment. I can't see that it is that different to some of McGregor's extreme postures. It's a very interesting distinction you make and I shall ponder it- I think McGregor is interested in humanity but whether he succeeds in showing that through dance is debatable. Sorry - didn't realise you were joking! Whatever Ashton said himself (clearly not very respectful!), I do find the feel of Monotones very different to that of much of McGregor's work. Though I loved Woolf Works - the first time for me that he did allow his dancers to be people, and it was wonderful. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I suspect Mr McGregor would have had a ticking off from the moderators on this forum had that text appeared here!! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Q Fan Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Interesting sitting on the sidelines observing such a debate! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Sorry - didn't realise you were joking! Whatever Ashton said himself (clearly not very respectful!), I do find the feel of Monotones very different to that of much of McGregor's work. Though I loved Woolf Works - the first time for me that he did allow his dancers to be people, and it was wonderful. I should have used a :-) That's interesting as I felt the same about Woolf Works. However, it moved me more as a theatrical experience, with hindsight. I really can't remember much about the dance itself. The staging, the lighting, music,effects made a really effective beautiful experience...but the steps? I agree with you entirely about Monotones. A word often used re McGregor is "contortions"- that is the key. Contortions imply the body being forced into unnatural postures -there is something painful,something unpleasant about that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 This is not the first time LJ has said this, was there anything specific that sparked it off? Other than the photo, that is, which is not the most flattering I have ever seen. What is it from, BTW? Although it doesn't really matter, I have seen that position many times in WM ballets. I did enjoy Woolf Works, but I think a lot (most?) of that came from the performance of Ferri. Plus the fact that as I have disliked just about everything else I have seen by him, so it was a relief to find that there was something I could enjoy! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 It is from the Orlando act of Woolf works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) I looked for some photos showing the appropriate angle in a classical ballet. Came up with this one: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/53dcdde9e4b06edf127a2085/53dce347e4b05b7d2eaeda4c/55b5e159e4b04ba2ac15fd01/1437983107929/?format=300w Edited to add that it is Sylvie Guillem. I was trying to find some where the female is partnered, but in the quick search I did, I couldn't find one. Edited December 1, 2015 by Fonty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl H Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 There is another photo of the same position in Orlando showing Olivia Cowley but it was taken more sideways and is not offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneMarriott Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 That's an awful photo. Stills are worse than vide or live performance though as the effects are fixed rather than momentary. I feel that the trend for leotards / pants and vests without tights does exacerbate 'the problem' (if there is one). At the recent RNZB performance I was sitting quite close to the stage (row G?) and I found flashes of white knickered crotches as some of the female dancers with their backs to the audience lifted their legs in lowish arabesques pretty uncomfortable. I would have found it really embarrassing if I had been sitting in the front row (which was very close to the stage) looking directly into their crotches. I was in the front row and didn't know where to look ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newcombe Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 It is from the Orlando act of Woolf works Looks like Osipova and Watson(Ed's calf muscles) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 This is not the first time LJ has said this, was there anything specific that sparked it off? Other than the photo, that is, which is not the most flattering I have ever seen. What is it from, BTW? Although it doesn't really matter, I have seen that position many times in WM ballets. I did enjoy Woolf Works, but I think a lot (most?) of that came from the performance of Ferri. Plus the fact that as I have disliked just about everything else I have seen by him, so it was a relief to find that there was something I could enjoy! Yes, I think Ferri's performance was very significant in the impact of Woolf Works. She couldn't be dehumanised if she tried. Maybe for once that inspired McGregor to use his heart rather than his head (or rather, his heart as well as his head). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanartus Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Heavens - am I the only person on this planet/forum who likes McGregor? I've always felt/seen the heart and sometimes humour in all of his pieces. WW brought the heart to the fore - but it was always there. Infra shows it the most in his short works - I feel it's a question of understanding the vocabulary of his choreography. There's a harsh, clinical, sharp honesty which isn't easy...but I do feel he's genuine about what he does. And as I've said before, a triple bill of Ashton, MacMillan and McGregor is my kind of RB heaven - and I'm sad it seems to be such a hell for so many... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanartus Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 PS the RB website does have some good clips of Wayne in rehearsal - I think he comes over well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavycapers Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 this thread has made me laugh! Reminds me of a couple of times when flimsy covering of lower regions has been very distracting! One is the fabulous Elite Synchopations that the BRB did a couple of years ago, where the all in one leotards they were wearing left very little to the imagine anatomically speaking when you were sat on the front row, as I and my elderly mother were, and two was the very lovely Romeo and Juliet in the Round at the Royal Albert Hall the year before last. I was sat on the front row of the stalls, and Mr Deane, obviously very keen to use all the extra corps he had hired for the production, had hem standing around the edge of the arena for a lot of the production as townspeople, or whatever, so basically, I had a very poor view from my low down position of Rojo and Acosta, but a marvellous view of twenty little male bottoms in tights so thin I could see the labels on their dance belts! C'mon wardrobe, it's not nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure I agree with this comment of Wayne McGregor's: "Baffled why an 'experienced' dance critic cannot understand that a body can be abstract: pure form, pure line, pure kinetic." When you put a 20-something girl in a skimpy costume, sort of flesh-coloured with high-cut legs and no tights, and with her nipples clearly showing, and create choreography like in that photo, my reaction to his comment would be, yes a body CAN be abstract, pure form, pure line, pure kinetic, whatever, but that particular body isn't. If he's really that keen to make a body abstract, why isn't he putting the girls in body stockings of a colour that doesn't show every detail of every contour, instead of in something that provides minimal coverage? Reminds me of the rationalisation of the school bully after reducing a sensitive kid to tears: "can't you take a joke?" Well, yes, but that wasn't a joke. Edited December 2, 2015 by Melody 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissBalletFan Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) I believe that the Twitter discussion can be separated into 2 different points. 1) The issue that started the debate by Mr Jennings that asked is it correct that such a photo should be released for publication by an Opera House? ROH released it, and I think all (including Wayne Macgregor) said that is was not a flattering photo at all, and it shouldn't have been used. On this I think all can agree. 2) The conversation then spilled into whether the choreography and its context was fundamental behind the form/art and therefore the photo. I cannot speak about WW specifically as I have not seen it, but having seen Wayne Macgregors works in Zurich and elsewhere, the tight leotard costumes are no different to anything such as 'In the middle somewhat elevated'. Also some of the forms and body parts presented by 'In the middle' are no different to his choreographies that I have seen. My judgement is that Wayne Macgregor is not guilty of releasing the photo, which it should not have been at all. He is also not guilty of producing 'crotch-obsessed' or overly sexual choreographies when placed in context to other choreographers, of which I could name many. The point about a 20 year old girl in a tight fitting costume where you can see her nipples, is really most modern choreographies, and typical of most in a 'Triple Bill' setting. Purely on a biological note, nipples become more prominent for all dancers due to the athletic ability and a lot of curtain calls this can be noticed on M and F dancers. I speak as a heterosexual man when I say that, in this day and age, I very much doubt many people are going to the ballet for any titilation in that respect, and in the outfits and context of the choreography, I can certainly see Macgregor's point about the form and the abstract over 'crotch-obsessed' choreography. It would be akin to someone pointing out things in a yoga class, and in this way I agree with Macgregors pointed statement in that what LJ takes from these moves is in the eyes of the beholder, and it is more a representation of what LJ sees in a photo that shouldn't have been released anyway. I think also, that as a 'friend of the ballet member' in Switzerland, fans are invited to watch selected classes' in the mornings, to which point I would feel terrible if I thought that some of the female dancers might think, he is watching me in a sexual element when a leg is raised at all. Which is certainly not the reason I or many watch the ballet at all. From my forays into this forum, I also understand how many take Wayne Macgregors language as direct or offensive, and I am sure the flock would be on him for saying anything like he has on a forum. However he was talking to a 'Critic' who you might imagine has a thicker skin than most. Edited December 2, 2015 by SwissBalletFan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The costumes for "In the middle..." are unsupportive and a bit revealing for the female dancer's bust BUT she does wear tights, which make quite a difference in exposure of the nether regions. The thing is with McGregor's stance is that he is not considering the dancers OR the audience by continuing to use these moves in his choreo and having them bare legged. If he wants to create "pure line" then a unitard would be more suitable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betterankles Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 However - dancers all over the world really love to work with McGregor. He is very special in the rehearsal room, interesting and indeed collaborative. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissBalletFan Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) The costumes for "In the middle..." are unsupportive and a bit revealing for the female dancer's bust BUT she does wear tights, which make quite a difference in exposure of the nether regions. The thing is with McGregor's stance is that he is not considering the dancers OR the audience by continuing to use these moves in his choreo and having them bare legged. If he wants to create "pure line" then a unitard would be more suitable. I have never been to the ROH, but I have been to most of the important houses in the world, and usually sit in the orchestra seats, and for the life of me, I have never had the time to see any exposure of the nether regions. I must get my eyes tested Or maybe I do not understand the sensitivity that women may have to this region. However I have to say that speaking to the dancers at the Premiere Party after Kairos and hearing what the dancers male and female had to say, was that it was 'life changing' to work with Macgregor and that the dancers themselves often are allowed to choose their own moves and ways of expressing themselves based upon words or feelings he uses. Dancers also said they loved his use of language in getting them to express themselves. Then he acted as a conductor he used these movements to bring it together in a great piece. In Kairos (5 stars in the guardian for the appearance at the Edinburgh festival) there is a part where 5/6 female dancers are dancing and leaning against a wall with some potentially revealing poses, (though tights are indeed being warn) and these moves were the choice of all of the female dancers, who from, what I gather really could tell Magregor what they liked and what they didn't like. Edited December 2, 2015 by SwissBalletFan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now