Royal Ballet - Swan Lake 2024

[Tango Dancer]

34 minutes ago, Sim said:

Or, you just might not have liked it simply because you didn't like it!  It's allowed!

Definitely things don't always work for us and we just don't like them. 

 

I agree it's not my favourite version of Act 4 either.  I like Siegfried to be more active.  

[Balletfanp]

I think you’ve summed up my feelings on Act IV, @Sim - it always feels so anticlimactic after Act III in this version.

 

When I saw BRB’s version I enjoyed that much more - it didn’t feel like an anticlimax, from the swans rising up suddenly from the mist, to the proper fight between Siegfried and Rothbart.

 

I do, overall, love the Scarlett version but Act IV really lets it down for me.

[San Perregrino]

1 hour ago, Sim said:

He should be up, fighting VR

That would be the obvious man triumphs over monster macho fight, the St George slays the dragon etc

Much more subtle is the girl power of the massed swans rising up in revenge for Odile’s death.

Perhaps Liam Scarlett foresaw that times were changing and so gave us this seemingly unconventional ending. 

[Lizbie1]

6 minutes ago, San Perregrino said:

That would be the obvious man triumphs over monster macho fight, the St George slays the dragon etc

Much more subtle is the girl power of the massed swans rising up in revenge for Odile’s death.

Perhaps Liam Scarlett foresaw that times were changing and so gave us this seemingly unconventional ending. 

 

I think there's a medium to be struck. Having Siegfried just lie there risks making him look useless and not worth Odette's time. It's also unintentionally comic.

[Sim]

 

5 minutes ago, San Perregrino said:

That would be the obvious man triumphs over monster macho fight, the St George slays the dragon etc

Much more subtle is the girl power of the massed swans rising up in revenge for Odile’s death.

Perhaps Liam Scarlett foresaw that times were changing and so gave us this seemingly unconventional ending. 

I didn't say anywhere that he triumphs.  I just said that he should fight.  I would hope that with the imminent prospect of the death of someone you love, you would fight to try to avoid it happening, irrespective of whether you are male or female.  I did mention further upthread that I like the 'girl power' aspect of the swans getting their revenge on VR.  But I would like it more if Siegfried had put up a good fight, then gone over the rocks to join Odette, then let the swans finish off VR.  Nothing to do with 'macho' fights, all to do with fighting for someone you love.  

[San Perregrino]

40 minutes ago, Sim said:

But I would like it more if Siegfried had put up a good fight,

A bit hard to do if you’ve been knocked unconscious. This Siegfried has shown us in previous scenes that he’s under his mother’s thumb and somewhat afraid of Von Rothbart at court. So having him taken out the action with a single blow sort of makes sense. 

Edited April 13 by San Perregrino

[LinMM]

Perhaps Odile should have fallen for Benno then!! Poor old Siegfried! 
 

[capybara]

At least, this run, the Siegfrieds don’t seem to be falling away from VR into a terrifying roll forwards which made the audience fear they would end up in the orchestra pit.

[Scheherezade]

For me, having Odette returned to human form in death and the massed rising of the swans against Von Rothbart makes a lot of sense. It’s just Siegfried’s total lack of agency that diminishes Act 4.

[DVDfan]

What I feel about the last act of Swan Lake is that there is no ending that works with both the narrative as we have it and the music. 

I do a bit of creative writing and sometimes, you have the beginning and the middle of a story, but the ending just isn't right, and you can't get it right. When that happens, the problem lies not at the end but in the middle - it isn't set up correctly to flow towards an end. 

With SL, I feel that the problem is in Act 3, when Siegfried makes an honest mistake. As we all know, alas, in real life honest mistakes can lead to disaster and tragedy, but in a good verses evil narrative like SL that should not happen. Compare with Bayadere, where Solor knows he is betraying Nikiya - he deserves disaster, but Siegfried doesn't.

Although I know it is disliked and with the music as it is I can see why, the only satisfactory end to this narrative is for Siegfried and Odette to survive, having defeated VR through the force of love. Anything else is the triumph of evil, even if VR does get pecked to death by the corps de ballet.

[Scheherezade]

1 minute ago, capybara said:

At least, this run, the Siegfrieds don’t seem to be falling away from VR into a terrifying roll forwards which made the audience fear they would end up in the orchestra pit.

Risk of injury aside, that would certainly add an extra frisson to the proceedings. 

[Scheherezade]

1 minute ago, DVDfan said:

the only satisfactory end to this narrative is for Siegfried and Odette to survive, having defeated VR through the force of love.

Reunion of their souls/spirits? Victory through and beyond death. 

[Odyssey]

13 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

Reunion of their souls/spirits? Victory through and beyond death. 

That to me is the most satisfying ending. I

The music has always suggested this to me.

[Richard LH]

3 hours ago, Sim said:

Siegfried is consigned to the floor for much of the last part

Only near the end after he is struck down by VR just as Odette runs away to jump off the rock. The premise is that  only her sacrifice can defeat VR, so I don't have a problem with S being seen as being pretty useless (again!) at this point. He remains true to character..🙄

 

But where Act IV really  shines is in the wonderful Corps dancing, the PDD, and the music....

Edited April 13 by Richard LH

[Jake]

As aspects of the ending seem so universally disliked, is there any chance that it could be revised one day, or is the choreographer’s ‘vision’ sacrosanct?
With whom would the ‘copyright’ lie, I wonder? Liam Scarlett’s heirs, or the RB which commissioned the version?

[Scheherezade]

4 minutes ago, Odyssey said:

That to me is the most satisfying ending. I

The music has always suggested this to me.

Me too. 

[Jamesrhblack]

I have referenced before the original ending: Siegfried tears the crown from Odette’s head, she dies, the waters overcome them, the swans are seen on the lake.

 

Human aspiration is flawed and fails.

 

Nureyev had an effort at refashioning this ending and although people quibble at its execution the message of the imagery remains indelible for me, possibly because I saw the film at a young age, but had already seen the ballet in the theatre and been encouraged by my parents to discuss and evaluate what I had seen and found this suited both music and message as I understood them.

 

I like much of what Scarlett is trying to achieve in Act 4, but agree that a supine SIegfried isn’t the best solution, whilst thinking the final image is a moving one but would be improved without the vision of Odette.

 

All opinions my own.

 

 

Edited April 13 by Jamesrhblack

[DVDfan]

As to Siegfried and Odette being united in an afterlife, yes, the music does suggest that and I can see that if you do believe this is possible, then it is a satisfying ending.

My own feeling is that Odette has been robbed of her life by VR and that the correct ending to the tale is that it should be restored to her, possibly by Siegfried's sacrificing his own life: even then I feel VR has won, and that should not happen.

But we all see these things differently, and it's important that Art caters to us all. 

I do like the rest of this production, including most of act IV. It seems to me much tighter that in the first run.

[Missfrankiecat]

36 minutes ago, Jake said:

As aspects of the ending seem so universally disliked, is there any chance that it could be revised one day, or is the choreographer’s ‘vision’ sacrosanct?
With whom would the ‘copyright’ lie, I wonder? Liam Scarlett’s heirs, or the RB which commissioned the version?

I'm not sure the ending is 'universally' disliked.  It works for me and for some others.  There are always problems in applying logic to myths/fairy stories but I don't have any problems with Sigfried's 'lack of agency' or failure to put up an effective fight in the final battle.  It is entirely consistent with his character throughout and he is, after all, the only human on stage in the final act - all the others are supernatural beings to some extent, representing forces of good and evil.  If we are looking at a cosmic fight between good and evil, it is hardly surprising that a mere human stands no chance in defeating evil through his puny attempts.  I have always regarded SL as mirroring aspects of the Christian theology/mythology (depending on your faith view). Evil doesn't win by Odette's self-sacrificing death, rather this is a familiar story of self-sacrificial death by a pure being resulting in redemption from the clutches of evil for her followers - this presumably includes Siegfried (the hopeless human) who will be able to return to rebuild the ruined court now that Rothbart is destroyed.  If the true endgame is less to do with a flawed man (who can't even tell the difference between his true love and an imposter that all the audience see a mile off!) getting the girl and more to do with the redemption of a whole kingdom from supernatural evil, then the euphoria in the final music also makes sense. 

[Suffolkgal]

I miss the swan boat and the sailing off to the Elysian Fields! Or wherever…

[Linnzi5]

9 minutes ago, Missfrankiecat said:

I'm not sure the ending is 'universally' disliked.  It works for me and for some others.  There are always problems in applying logic to myths/fairy stories but I don't have any problems with Sigfried's 'lack of agency' or failure to put up an effective fight in the final battle.  It is entirely consistent with his character throughout and he is, after all, the only human on stage in the final act - all the others are supernatural beings to some extent, representing forces of good and evil.  If we are looking at a cosmic fight between good and evil, it is hardly surprising that a mere human stands no chance in defeating evil through his puny attempts.  I have always regarded SL as mirroring aspects of the Christian theology/mythology (depending on your faith view). Evil doesn't win by Odette's self-sacrificing death, rather this is a familiar story of self-sacrificial death by a pure being resulting in redemption from the clutches of evil for her followers - this presumably includes Siegfried (the hopeless human) who will be able to return to rebuild the ruined court now that Rothbart is destroyed.  If the true endgame is less to do with a flawed man (who can't even tell the difference between his true love and an imposter that all the audience see a mile off!) getting the girl and more to do with the redemption of a whole kingdom from supernatural evil, then the euphoria in the final music also makes sense. 

I actually like the end. I agree that Siegfried being supine isn't the best use of him (then again, does he really get to do that much anyway?) but I do like that Odette is the strong one and ends her life as she can't bear to continue as she is - all on her own terms. I also wonder if she sacrifices herself so Siegfried can live?  I took it that Siegfried was killed by VR and the two swans revived him at the end - they certainly go over to him and wave their arms over him, which I just interpreted as them restoring his life? I do quite like the traditional ending of the two of them heading off on a swan boat together, united in death but also find it a little sickly sweet. The only ending I didn't like was the one where Siegfried is swimming under a sea of silk (mimicking waves) - I just laughed inside at that! 

[LinMM]

I don’t have any religious views whatever but still like the idea of them floating off to some sort of other world in that Swan Boat thingy it just so suits the music at that point. 

[Richard LH]

21 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I don’t have any religious views whatever but still like the idea of them floating off to some sort of other world in that Swan Boat thingy it just so suits the music at that point. 

Oh I thought in that version they were just taking  a pedalo trip across the lake...🤔

[LinMM]

Well you do have to have a bit of imagination!! 

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, Missfrankiecat said:

I'm not sure the ending is 'universally' disliked.  It works for me and for some others.  There are always problems in applying logic to myths/fairy stories but I don't have any problems with Sigfried's 'lack of agency' or failure to put up an effective fight in the final battle.  It is entirely consistent with his character throughout and he is, after all, the only human on stage in the final act - all the others are supernatural beings to some extent, representing forces of good and evil.  If we are looking at a cosmic fight between good and evil, it is hardly surprising that a mere human stands no chance in defeating evil through his puny attempts.  I have always regarded SL as mirroring aspects of the Christian theology/mythology (depending on your faith view). Evil doesn't win by Odette's self-sacrificing death, rather this is a familiar story of self-sacrificial death by a pure being resulting in redemption from the clutches of evil for her followers - this presumably includes Siegfried (the hopeless human) who will be able to return to rebuild the ruined court now that Rothbart is destroyed.  If the true endgame is less to do with a flawed man (who can't even tell the difference between his true love and an imposter that all the audience see a mile off!) getting the girl and more to do with the redemption of a whole kingdom from supernatural evil, then the euphoria in the final music also makes sense. 

 

I agree, except that all the emphasis at the end is on Siegfried bringing out Odette's dead body - the image of her hovering above cannot even be seen by some of the audience and seems very much like an afterthought (whether or not it was intended like that). So for me, the euphoria of the final music isn't really reflected in what happens on stage. And if the ballet was called 'Odette', it would be OK for the redemption to come solely through her; but I prefer my SL where it's a joint effort and their love for each other comes together to defeat evil, rather than it just being Odette's love for Siegfried. Siegfried has been the victim of VR's evil just as much as Odette was originally, so they should join forces to defeat him.

[Fonty]

For me, it doesn't work having Odette sacrifice herself so that everyone else might live, and the audience seeing her dead human body at the end.  I find myself thinking, "Well, that was a bit of a waste of true love."  I don't mind whether they both live, or they both die, I want to see them united somehow, having triumphed over evil.  I prefer it if they both die, as the soaring music at the end suggests tragedy, but I'll settle for hand holding in this life if I must.

I am sure there was at least one where VR triumphs, and Odette is condemned to life as a swan forever, isn't there?  I don't think Siegfried dies, though, just watches her vanish into the distance, mourning his loss.  

[Sim]

3 hours ago, San Perregrino said:

A bit hard to do if you’ve been knocked unconscious. This Siegfried has shown us in previous scenes that he’s under his mother’s thumb and somewhat afraid of Von Rothbart at court. So having him taken out the action with a single blow sort of makes sense. 

Clearly I wasn’t referring to after he has been knocked unconscious.  That shouldn’t have happened in the first place.  

[Dawnstar]

 

5 hours ago, Sim said:

Nor do I like the ending (my preference is for them both to die, then reunite in the apotheosis for eternity, as in Dowell's version), although I think I'm getting used to it.  

 

Unfortunately far from getting used to it I'm the other way round. The ending is irritating me a lot more this time around than during the last run because in the meantime I've seen ENB's production, whose ending (once I got over my initial surprise at Siegfried foillowing Odette off the rock) I much preferred.

 

3 hours ago, capybara said:

At least, this run, the Siegfrieds don’t seem to be falling away from VR into a terrifying roll forwards which made the audience fear they would end up in the orchestra pit.

 

I liked the Siegfrieds that did that in the last run. At least it seemed as though he'd been knocked out by Von Rothbart with major force so there was a good reason why he was lying there for ages. When he just collapses gently to the floor at a mere wave of Von Rothbart's wing & lies there for ages I unfortunately feel it makes him look pretty pathetic.

 

1 hour ago, Linnzi5 said:

I took it that Siegfried was killed by VR and the two swans revived him at the end - they certainly go over to him and wave their arms over him, which I just interpreted as them restoring his life?

 

Gosh, that had never occurred to me. I just thought they were waking him up to tell him it's all over & he needs to go & fish Odette's dead body out of the lake!

[Mary]

Like others there is plenty I really like in this production, especially the wonderful sets and costumes, Siegfried's solo and the reconciliation pas de deux - but it does need revising I think.

 

While I agree the ending may not be  'universally' disliked,  the discussion here and on previous occasions suggests there is perhaps a majority who would like to see it tweaked, at least.

 

In the unlikely event that I was directing the next revival and had  a free hand, I would tweak it along the lines of some of the ideas on this thread, making it match the soaring music properly and preventing Siegfried looking like a pathetic weed; I would also:

change Benno's Act 1 costume so he looked less like Buttons in a pantomime;

cut about half his dancing in Act 1  and give it to Siegfried ( I find it very frustrating when Siegfried just teases us with tiny bits of dancing here and there);

cut one of the pas de trois, possibly the second one- (they have delighted me long enough.....)

 

Luckily for you all I am not going to get the chance....

[Sim]

8 minutes ago, Mary said:

 

Luckily for you all I am not going to get the chance....

More's the pity, as I think all of your suggestions are excellent!

[San Perregrino]

2 minutes ago, Mary said:

; I would also:

change Benno's Act 1 costume so he looked less like Buttons in a pantomime;

cut about half his dancing in Act 1  and give it to Siegfried ( I find it very frustrating when Siegfried just teases us with tiny bits of dancing here and there);

It randomly crossed my mind last time I watched SL what would the reaction be if, rather than saying no to dancing with his sisters, Siegfried decided that a bit of a dance might be just what he needed to dispel his melancholy tendencies…? though perhaps then he wouldn’t need to slip off to the woods and the lake which would make it a shorter ballet as he wouldn’t see the swans. 

Personally I’d keep the Benno dancing because it means better opportunities for more male dancers. Siegfried does have a lot to do once he’s out of the starting gate. 
As far as costumes go, I’d get rid of all black tights and shoes. A lot of the choreography especially in Act 3 is lost to view because black blends in to the richness of the Palace background rather than standing out. What’s the point of making all that effort for the audience not to be able to the skill involved? 

[Sim]

I remember seeing a version of SL many years ago (can't remember which company) where Siegfried's body is being carried out of the water (perhaps by Benno) as the curtains open to the prologue music.  At the end, therefore, he and Odette are united in death.

 

I don't believe in any kind of life after death, which is why I love the ending where there is eternal life after death.  It gives me hope, even though I believe it would never happen.  It is, after all, just a fairytale....and the music says to me that there is this redemption.  They have defeated evil, and their reward is to go to a better place together for all eternity.  I'll take that.  

[capybara]

1 minute ago, San Perregrino said:

 Siegfried does have a lot to do once he’s out of the starting gate. 
 

 

Not the way I look at it.

The soliloquy between Acts 1&2 is gorgeous, his Act 3 variation can be spectacular. The rest is partnering an Odette or an Odile who completely obscures Siegfried from view for much of the time.

@Mary’s version (see above) would sort the dancing issue for me nicely. But not the ending 🤔