bridiem Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 13 minutes ago, Ondine said: I really don't know what to say to someone who read what I wrote and didn't see it as anything but lighthearted. "Untitled, 2023, inspired by the untitled art works of the late Cuban-American artist Carmen Herrera, who has designed the set." Herrera clearly was beneath contempt. How dare she. I don't think I misunderstood your comments. And I don't actually care if Herrera chose not to give titles to her works; I'm just not enthused at the prospect of a ballet without a title inspired by works without titles. Call me old-fashioned... (or even beneath contempt). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 3 hours ago, Sim said: Yes I am going to Morera’s farewell. Just that one show as I don’t like Corybantic Games and another McGregor short ballet doesn’t excite me. I love Chroma and Infra but none of his other short ballets have done it for me. Infra has to be his masterpiece, right? At least I loved it. Chroma is just okay. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Well I definitely preferred Infra to Chroma but couldn’t say whether that makes Infra his masterpiece of course. Im kind of thinking Woolf Works will turn out to be his masterpiece …but you never know …he might still have his masterpiece up his sleeve!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, bridiem said: I don't think I misunderstood your comments. And I don't actually care if Herrera chose not to give titles to her works; I'm just not enthused at the prospect of a ballet without a title inspired by works without titles. Call me old-fashioned... (or even beneath contempt). But it has a title, of sorts. It's called Untitled 2023. Why must abstract works be given some arbitrary name? You'll never believe where some 'untitled' artworks are! https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/fischli-weiss-untitled-tate-t12468 Edited June 1, 2023 by Ondine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeralds Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Benjamin said: Infra has to be his masterpiece, right? At least I loved it. Chroma is just okay. I think it’s down to personal preference. Chroma has to be seen in person whereas for me, Infra is powerful both in person or filmed as long as you have a good cast. If you want objective evidence/numbers, Chroma would appear to be more popular and lucrative (in terms of royalties and tickets sold) as it’s been acquired by San Francisco Ballet, National Ballet of Canada, Boston Ballet, Bolshoi Ballet, Australian Ballet, the Alvin Ailey company, etc. Apart from the Mariinsky Ballet acquiring Infra, I don’t know which other companies dance it (there isn’t a list on his website)....but it is on the GCSE Dance syllabus though! That said, McGregor’s works that are viewed by the greatest number of people and most often are not Woolf Works, Infra, or even Chroma, but.....his choreography for the characters in animated film Sing and the Fantastic Beasts films scripted by JK Rowling. 😁 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Am I right in thinking that this will be what you might call McGregor's first "post-Watson" ballet? If so, it'll be interesting to see whether that has any effect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Benjamin said: Infra has to be his masterpiece, right? At least I loved it. Chroma is just okay. Yes its definitely my opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeralds Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, alison said: Am I right in thinking that this will be what you might call McGregor's first "post-Watson" ballet? If so, it'll be interesting to see whether that has any effect. Not counting works for his own company, Paris Opera, ENB and other companies, the first one for the RB without Watson, yes. That sounds really sad! He was working on creations with Ed Watson way back in the 1990s before the idea of successes like Chroma and Woolf Works on the Main Stage was even contemplated. Would be nice if Ed had a walk on part or something like that. Edited June 1, 2023 by Emeralds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanJL Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 I noticed in an early comment that Melissa Hamilton is suggested to be in this new piece. For me at least, the prospect of Hamilton in a new McGregor (or any McGregor!) is very enticing! Looking forward to seeing this one 🙂 A few people have tried to make this point already, but it seems to me that the work does have a very specific title, based on the name of many of Herrera's works. It's not the ballet which is untitled, but the works it is based on. In the same way someone may decide to make a ballet inspired by Van Gogh and call it Sunflowers or similar. Seems as good a title as any. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue J Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Two of the most moving, original, and ambitious productions l have seen at Covent Garden in the last 12 months (or just over) have been choreographed by Wayne McGregor. Obviously they were the Dante Project and Woolf Works. Personally, l can't wait to see what he does next, and l don't care what he chooses to call it! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 7 hours ago, Ondine said: You'll never believe where some 'untitled' artworks are! https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/fischli-weiss-untitled-tate-t12468 Why would that be difficult to believe? It's exactly where I would expect untitled works to be. And I assume you mean that if it's in the Tate it must be good? I beg to differ. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Emeralds said: You don’t even like The Winter’s Tale or Woolf Works, Lizbie1? For the short ballets, it depends....Wheeldon’s Within the Golden Hour, Polyphonia and Ghosts (not in the RB repertoire-it’s in San Francisco Ballet’s) I like, but not Strapless or CG. I like DGV and After the Rain if it’s a cast I like. For McGregor, it actually depends on the cast too....I have seen one cast whom I’m afraid were quite wrong for Infra apart from Yasmine Naghdi, who absolutely understood her character, the style of the piece and was utterly moving, and I thought Infra was “easy” to dance, so that was an interesting discovery. I haven’t seen all his one act works nor do I like all of them, but Chroma, Infra, Limen, Yugen, Terractys (which I liked) are very different to WW (I like) and Dante Project (not sure). I liked the music for Obsidian Tear but not the choreography. I think perhaps if you’re the sort of person who enjoys Forsythe, Dawson, Tetley and a lot of the abstract works often danced in North America and continental Europe, you might like their one act works, but if you don’t like them then you might feel similarly about WM & CW ballets. I guess that if one believes the best ballet should be less abstract and more like Ashton, Fokine, Petipa, Bournonville, MacMillan, Perrot (Giselle, Esmeralda), maybe the one act ballets feel too..... boring? (Actually Infra is very interesting-different people in the city, including one young woman who may be suicidal - and is almost more like Fokine or MacMillan.....a really sad one, that is.) Then again, MacMillan did abstract works too, as did Ashton, so there’s some overlap. And oddly, I like Bournonville, Petipa, etc but also like CW & WM. Wheeldon and McGregor sometimes use music that isn’t classical (sometimes quite loud!) or may be borderline classical (eg is Michael Nyman film music or classical?) and both use Joby Talbot who has his distinctive sound that one might not like. I’m ok with what they’ve picked- have endured worse - and a lot of Wheeldon’s classical picks are beautiful. The other funny thing is that I find Chroma doesn’t look as interesting on screen as it does in real life, while I appreciated WTGH more only after the being able to see it onscreen during the pandemic and appreciate the fine details. WW enjoyed as a spectacle. I didn't think much of Winter's Tale. I like a lot of abstract choreography very well and I'm OK with a lot of the music though I find the repeated use of Joby Talbot a bit of a mystery (I think his music is straightforwardly boring rather than distinctive). I assume Wheeldon finds him good to work with, which does count for something. My problem is with the quality of the choreography itself, which I don't think is in the same class as, for example, Forsythe or Ratmansky. I find McGregor limited and repetitive, but I'm happy enough to watch his shorter works "in the moment" (though I'm not keen on the overuse of manipulating the women into extreme positions). Wheeldon is IMO bland for the most part, OK sometimes and wilfully ugly at others. I don't normally air all this because I realise it's down to personal taste, but since I was asked... Edited June 2, 2023 by Lizbie1 Missed word 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, DanJL said: A few people have tried to make this point already, but it seems to me that the work does have a very specific title, based on the name of many of Herrera's works. It's not the ballet which is untitled, but the works it is based on. Well the ballet is untitled in the same sense as and for the same reason as the art works are untitled. There is a title literally written down, which isn't quite the same thing as a real title. I regret this discussion about the title or lack of has become so prolonged and I apologise for my part in it becoming so. I (almost) always look forward to new works and I still have hope that this one will be prove to be worth watching. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 8 hours ago, Ondine said: I really don't know what to say to someone who read what I wrote and didn't see it as anything but lighthearted I saw your post as a rather rude deployment of heavy sarcasm against members of the forum who had expressed different views to your own - unnecessary and uncalled for. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 14 hours ago, FionaE said: “electrifying” ??? this flashes visions of Olivia Newton John telling John Travolta that he'd better shape up, whilst poured into those leather trousers... 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoVR Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 7 hours ago, alison said: Am I right in thinking that this will be what you might call McGregor's first "post-Watson" ballet? If so, it'll be interesting to see whether that has any effect. I'm pretty sure Mr Watson wasn't in Yugen, even though he was still in the company then. I think that's the one and only piece of McGregor's he wasn't in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 12 hours ago, Emeralds said: I think the actual dances/choreography will be more important than what it’s called, but the dances/choreography haven’t been premiered yet, so fretting over a title is probably not worth it. I remember Chroma and Woolf Works being just as unfathomable (to me anyway) before their premieres and Chroma turned out to be electric (still is) and WW poignant and beautiful (still is). Certainly lots of dance companies agree re: Chroma-it’s been staged by many companies in various countries on different continents. (Yet the title still doesn’t seem to give much information about the ballet to someone who doesn’t know it!) Am more concerned about this pessimism.....does this mean nobody is going to Laura Morera’s farewell? Or is this just a bit of a chit chat? Website still showing a lot of unsold tickets. (I’ve bought mine). Well, I'm going with an open mind about the new piece and am booked for three shows (including the first and last nights); I was booked for four but something else came up that means I'll now be in a different part of the ROH that evening! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 18 minutes ago, zxDaveM said: this flashes visions of Olivia Newton John telling John Travolta that he'd better shape up, whilst poured into those leather trousers... my thoughts exactly! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 10 hours ago, Ondine said: some people should try to get out into the wider world more. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamk Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Lizbie1 said: My problem is with the quality of the choreography itself, which I don't think is in the same class as, for example, Forsythe or Ratmansky. I find McGregor limited and repetitive, but I'm happy enough to watch his shorter works "in the moment" (though I'm not keen on the overuse of manipulating the women into extreme positions). Wheeldon is IMO bland for the most part, OK sometimes and wilfully ugly at others. I don't normally air all this because I realise it's down to personal taste, but since I was asked... You express exactly how I feel about McGregor and Wheeldon. Their residencies have been at the RB for many years now and I feel it's time they were moved on. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 9 hours ago, Benjamin said: Infra has to be his masterpiece, right? Probably my favourite. One flaw though - the section when all 12 dancers are dancing in the square light boxes; no symetry, and all doing completely different things. To my mind, had they started synchronously, and diverged chaotically, or even better, merged into synchronicity, that would have been marvelous. Happy to report though, that he does seem to have discovered a level of synchronous dancing in the UniVerse, down in the Linbury currently 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeralds Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, MoVR said: I'm pretty sure Mr Watson wasn't in Yugen, even though he was still in the company then. I think that's the one and only piece of McGregor's he wasn't in That’s correct- Edward Watson wasn’t in Yugen, not in Live Fire Exercise (if one doesn’t count Morgen, which was limited to being a pas de deux because of the pandemic)....I don’t know if that was due to injury or just an artistic decision to stick only with the dancers who eventually premiered them. Just feels odd now that Watson has retired as a principal dancer, but still working in the company. It will probably be felt more keenly when Dante Project is revived because both Dantes (Watson and Bonelli), coincidentally, have retired. Edited June 2, 2023 by Emeralds 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 10 hours ago, Ondine said: Nobody has even seen it yet! Nor heard a note... I'm afraid you are mistaken. The music is two pieces by Anna Thorvaldsdottir, CATAMORPHOSIS and METACOSMOS and you can listen to the latter and an extract from the former on her website. METACOSMOS was the first piece on the programme of Prom 6 in 2019 and I was in the Arena to hear it (a very enjoyable concert BTW, with the Britten Violin Concerto and The Rite of Spring). 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 25 minutes ago, zxDaveM said: this flashes visions of Olivia Newton John telling John Travolta that he'd better shape up, whilst poured into those leather trousers... 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Richard LH said: I saw your post as a rather rude deployment of heavy sarcasm against members of the forum who had expressed different views to your own - unnecessary and uncalled for. Did you? Just wait until I do deploy 'heavy sarcasm' then! Blimey! Or told you what I really thought of the blinkered blimpishness of getting knickers in a twist over a title of a dancework they haven't even seen as yet. Humour is sorely in short supply in this thread, and so it carries on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 24 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said: 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Well anyone horrified, in 2023, at an abstract work being called 'Untitled' could perhaps pop into a nearby art gallery? Maybe the Tate, which holds a number of 'untitled' works? 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Emeralds said: That’s correct- Edward Watson wasn’t in Yugen, not in Live Fire Exercise I had a definite feeling, when I saw Live Fire Exercise, that there was a "ghost" of Watson in the choreography, as if some of it had been created on him before he got injured. I never did find out if that actually was the case, and am insufficiently bothered to go back and re-view the work to find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 50 minutes ago, Ondine said: Did you? Just wait until I do deploy 'heavy sarcasm' then! Blimey! Or told you what I really thought of the blinkered blimpishness of getting knickers in a twist over a title of a dancework they haven't even seen as yet. You have told us what you really think. Maybe it would also be helpful to remind you of one of the rules of this forum: Contributors must be respectful to others. It's perfectly possible to disagree without being rude under the guise of humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, bangorballetboy said: I'm afraid you are mistaken. The music is two pieces by Anna Thorvaldsdottir, CATAMORPHOSIS and METACOSMOS and you can listen to the latter and an extract from the former on her website. METACOSMOS was the first piece on the programme of Prom 6 in 2019 and I was in the Arena to hear it (a very enjoyable concert BTW, with the Britten Violin Concerto and The Rite of Spring). Well thanks for that. I'll have a delve. I can't say I've delved as yet much beyond the fact I know the artist and admire her work, within the context of its time and place in the 'history' of art. I can see why McGregor was attracted to using her as designer and inspiration. The dancework could be a dud, it could be memorable and lasting, until it's performed in its entirety no-one knows. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Last word here now but am looking forward to peoples reports of this programme next week and maybe even some suggestions for their own titles for this work lol! A couple of friends are going on the first night so am waiting for a report from them as well and then if it’s a big positive for the McGregor I might be looking for a standing ticket but it’s a busy couple of weeks so can only make one date anyway so it’s not looking likely. It’s bound to be a work of genius! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, bridiem said: You have told us what you really think. Maybe it would also be helpful to remind you of one of the rules of this forum: Contributors must be respectful to others. It's perfectly possible to disagree without being rude under the guise of humour. Rude? Wait until I really try! Lady Bracknell personified! I've spent many decades honing my rudeness levels, I've reached the grand age of not giving a damn as Mr R Butler said, but I was actually just being lighthearted! It is all quite amusing really, that there is all this angst being expressed over a title. Or not a title. At the end of the day, it's a short one act dancework and it has a title. It won't cure world poverty or get anyone on Mars. Perspective is surely being a little skewed here? I get that some don't like Wayne McGregor, but many do, and I'm sure for those, a new work is an event to which they look forward. And I look forward to reading what they have to say about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 I shall be relieved when we can express our views about the work itself rather than about one another. I don’t want to open a thread and find little more than a ‘slagging match’. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 I'm hoping for a Pussy Riot style demo at the Opera House on opening night. So much online controversy over a short dancework! 🙂 I'm additionally hoping forum regulars will be there with cameras in hand to capture it all. 🙃 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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