Audience Behaviour - Thread 2

[Sophoife]

 

8 minutes ago, FionaE said:

A clip of Iana Salenko in Don Q in Rome … posted by the Artistic Director of Rome Ballet herself, Eleonora Abbagnato

 

Looks like it was filmed from the lighting desk, so not the same as an audience member annoying everyone around them at all!

 

And frankly just because Abbagnato posted it doesn't mean it's right.

 

The social media videos mid-performance I can approve of and enjoy are the ones filmed by other dancers, on- or off-duty, from the wings. Such as this one from former ENB principal Yosvani Ramos (retiring in April) in, yes, what I consider to be a hideous costume - and purple is normally my favourite colour (sorry Yos) 😂

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Sophoife
Costume comment added

[Guest oncnp]

14 minutes ago, FionaE said:

Here’s an example of how life is moving on in this regard … 

 

A clip of Iana Salenko in Don Q in Rome … posted by the Artistic Director of Rome Ballet herself, Eleonora Abbagnato

 

https://instagram.com/stories/eleonoraabbagnatoofficial/3002688563013077178?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

I notice Ms Abbagnato has also re-posted other audience videos.  

 

Whose company's policy clearly states  General informations | Teatro Dell'Opera Di Roma (operaroma.it)

 

Photographing, either with or without a flash, is strictly prohibited in the Theatre, as is audio and video recording.
The use of mobile phones is prohibited in the auditorium.

[FionaM]

23 minutes ago, oncnp said:

 

Whose company's policy clearly states  General informations | Teatro Dell'Opera Di Roma (operaroma.it)

 

Photographing, either with or without a flash, is strictly prohibited in the Theatre, as is audio and video recording.
The use of mobile phones is prohibited in the auditorium.

🤣🤣

[MJW]

37 minutes ago, FionaE said:

The point of the audience video is not to be good quality or professional  … but to give a flavour to those not attending of what they have missed by not being at the live performance! 

 

Presumably that's why companies use extracts from previous professional filming for cinema screenings/recordings etc in their advertising. They have no need to rely on filming from the audience.

[Linnzi5]

1 hour ago, PeterS said:

I don’t believe that there can be such a thing as ‘discreet’ filming in a dark auditorium. A bright phone screen (sometimes accompanied by a shutter clicking) suddenly illuminating in my sight line to the stage is like a meteor in a dark sky or a lighthouse beacon on a dark and stormy night. It attracts my attention, destroys my concentration and breaks the magical spell of a collective audience connection to that imaginary world that is being created and lived onstage by dancers or performers. As such, as with talking during a performance, I feel that this kind of unwarranted unnecessary intrusion is selfish, inconsiderate, insensitive and disrespectful to other audience members.
A while ago, I think that there was an instruction to RB dancers not to post unauthorised clips filmed  ‘mid-performance’ on their social media profiles. I don’t know if this guideline still exists. 
I freely admit that I take curtain call photos and, from time to time, these are reposted by dancers. But, the photos are taken after, not during the event, an activity that is allowed by the ROH. To summarise:

Before: yes, After: yes

During: A resounding No! 

I totally agree with you. I try and take photos or film the curtain calls and I see many people taking photos before a performance, which I think is unobtrusive and fine too.  I have had people film, on their phones, around me during performances and I always ask them to stop, reminding them it is forbidden. So far, they have apologised and put their phones away. I dislike filming during performances for several reasons. Firstly, it is prohibited  and therefore we should not do it. Secondly, it could be distracting for the performers and finally, it distracts me! Do I want my eyes to be drawn to a lit mobile phone waving around in front of me? Absolutely not. I pay a lot of money for good seats and I do not want my experience to be ruined by people breaking rules. I find it most annoying and inconsiderate.

[FionaM]

@Sophoife I agree about enjoying the #fromthewings videos.   They give a different perspective for us.    
 

It’s brave of any dancer to post these .. they do reveal technique imperfections more than the audience straight-on view.  

[FionaM]

17 minutes ago, MJW said:

 

Presumably that's why companies use extracts from previous professional filming for cinema screenings/recordings etc in their advertising. They have no need to rely on filming from the audience.

Indeed.  Audience clips can never replace professional filming.  That’s not their purpose.  It’s probably fair to assume that the followers of ROH social media are people already attending shows.  
 

Audience members have unique sets of interests and therefore followers on social media who might never have seen a ballet.  Theatres are missing out on that wider reach.  

[JohnS]

16 hours ago, FionaE said:

Question … what’s the actual issue with filming at the ballet?  
 

At other music genres … pop/rock … filming isn’t controlled at all.  Clips that are shared serve to increase the audience.  

 

I can understand if it’s disturbing other patrons 

FionaE has surely answered her question in her first post. Filming during performances is disturbing to other patrons. I would say it’s massively disturbing. One person using their phone imposes unacceptably on dozens and sometimes hundreds of other patrons. The person happily filming is spoiling the magic of live performance for many others.

[Sim]

11 minutes ago, FionaE said:

Indeed.  Audience clips can never replace professional filming.  That’s not their purpose.  It’s probably fair to assume that the followers of ROH social media are people already attending shows.  
 

Audience members have unique sets of interests and therefore followers on social media who might never have seen a ballet.  Theatres are missing out on that wider reach.  

I am old enough to remember theatres and concert halls being full before the advent of social media, clips, sound bites, etc.  Somehow we all managed to find things that interested us, buy tickets, and go along.  Without mobile phones, we could all sit in the dark and get immersed in what was happening onstage.  Happy days.

[FionaM]

1 minute ago, Sim said:

I am old enough to remember theatres and concert halls being full before the advent of social media, clips, sound bites, etc.  Somehow we all managed to find things that interested us, buy tickets, and go along.  Without mobile phones, we could all sit in the dark and get immersed in what was happening onstage.  Happy days.

that’s a good point.  
 

I guess the issue with social media and today’s world is that there are more events competing for an audience.   If alternative events grab attention by utilising current tools available then those that don’t risk losing out.  

[zxDaveM]

17 hours ago, FionaE said:

Question … what’s the actual issue with filming at the ballet?  
 

At other music genres … pop/rock … filming isn’t controlled at all.  Clips that are shared serve to increase the audience.  

 

I can understand if it’s disturbing other patrons 

 

At rock/pop events, being allowed to use your phone is getting rarer. For a 'major' star's performance, you may indeed be forced to hand in your phone before entering the auditorium these days

 

As for the ballet - you've answered your own question really. I suppose it is akin to the reason why you wouldn't do a running commentary with your companion all the way through, as the action unfolds on stage. Or, sing-a-long with the music!!!

[Guest oncnp]

5 minutes ago, zxDaveM said:

 

 Or, sing-a-long with the music!!!

 

Non sequitur...sitting in center front row of stalls at an RB performance and kept hearing someone humming along to the music. Really annoying...until I realized it was the conductor. 

[bridiem]

28 minutes ago, FionaE said:

I guess the issue with social media and today’s world is that there are more events competing for an audience.   If alternative events grab attention by utilising current tools available then those that don’t risk losing out.  

 

There are endless (official) clips of ballet performances online if enthusiasts want to share them with others to encourage attendance. My suspicion is that posting self-filmed clips is not aimed at encouraging others but is mainly about self-promotion.

[capybara]

Interesting how FionaE's post of yesterday has stirred so many of us from our post Christmas slumbers!

 

I've arrived late to the pass and everything which I would have said has already been written - except for a recent variation............. someone leaning forward from the front row of the ROH Stalls in order to film her friend playing in the orchestra. In doing so, she blocked off half of the stage for me and probably more for the person behind her. A touch on the arm from me was sufficient for her to pull back and switch off her phone, but ..........😨!!!!! By the way, the musician was obviously delighted to see the footage.

[FionaM]

34 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

There are endless (official) clips of ballet performances online if enthusiasts want to share them with others to encourage attendance. My suspicion is that posting self-filmed clips is not aimed at encouraging others but is mainly about self-promotion.

well motivationally I can only speak for myself … I repost videos precisely to advertise shows to my friends. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by FionaE

[LinMM]

I agree with Bridiem’s post above that to be honest filming while dancing is in progress is more about “ look at me I’m at the Nutcracker ( or whatever) because that’s how social media seems to flourish …on clips about what you are doing in your life whether eating out at a restaurant or out at the theatre etc.

Sometimes it can be to record as a memory of a visit so realise it could be more tempting for UK visitors who may never visit again or not for a very long time to break the rules…. However less understandable for people who will be there the very next week and the one after that ….and so on!!! 
It’s of course okay to film yourself and others you are with in a restaurant but it is not allowed in most theatres with live shows and that should be respected. 
 

I also really don’t think watching somebody’s (illicit) phone clip of a live ballet is in any way seriously going to contribute to an increase in audience attendances. 

[FionaM]

For balance, it would be interesting to get views from the younger generation.  
 

I’ve seen short clips made by UK ballet school students and junior members of UK companies on social media. The purpose of those is to applaud colleagues and dancers that they admire.  They add applause 👏 and similar emojis and and ‘well done’ type comments.  
 

I think the (mostly) older generations in this forum may be misrepresenting the generosity of younger people, particularly on social media.   
 

The dancers posting videos of themselves (whether from the wings or audience) or re-posts of official clips … those obviously ARE self-promotion.   And who else is going to do it, if not themselves?  Only a few have agents.  I notice Friedemann Vogel’s agents regularly repost any audience video and curtain calls.  

[serenade]

4 minutes ago, FionaE said:

For balance, it would be interesting to get views from the younger generation.  
 

I’ve seen short clips made by UK ballet school students and junior members of UK companies on social media. The purpose of those is to applaud colleagues and dancers that they admire.  They add applause 👏 and similar emojis and and ‘well done’ type comments.  
 

I think the (mostly) older generations in this forum may be misrepresenting the generosity of younger people, particularly on social media.     
 

 

 

I don’t think age has anything to do with the views here and more to do with the fact people on the forum love ballet and just want to watch something they love without distractions,  are paying for their tickets and attending performances so it’s going to be those people who would have the problem with it!

 
I don’t know, I can’t speak for people now growing up with social media the way it is today having never known any different but I’m 34 and have been going regularly to ballet performances for about 12 years. I know there’s never a point where my 22 year old self would have thought it was ok to whip out my phone and film my favourite dancer but i think it depends how much you think about those around you and I don’t think that that’s age related, it’s more just general manners. I’ve had performances ruined by fellow audience members of all ages 😂😂

[Balletfanp]

I don’t think you can blame it on being an “age thing” when it’s actually about having your enjoyment of the performance spoilt by someone waving a brightly lit phone around in your field of view (possibly multiple phones if it gets to the point where this becomes accepted and allowed!).

 

Whilst not being young anymore myself, I do know a number of younger theatre-goers who would not find it acceptable either.

[capybara]

33 minutes ago, FionaE said:

I’ve seen short clips made by UK ballet school students and junior members of UK companies on social media. The purpose of those is to applaud colleagues and dancers that they admire.  They add applause 👏 and similar emojis and and ‘well done’ type comments.   

As one of the ‘older generation’, the cynic in me finds some of these posts just as self-promoting as if they were images of the originators themselves.

[Sophoife]

48 minutes ago, FionaE said:

The dancers posting videos of themselves (whether from the wings or audience) or re-posts of official clips … those obviously ARE self-promotion.   And who else is going to do it, if not themselves?  Only a few have agents.  I notice Friedemann Vogel’s agents regularly repost any audience video and curtain calls.

 

Yes, @FionaE.

 

I just wonder, has it occurred to you in your zeal, that company members and/or their agents get company permission to post such videos, either as a one-off, part of the company terms and conditions, or as part of their individual contract?

 

Also, you said up-thread something about phones at concerts. Madonna, I know for a fact, requires device surrender on entry, as do many other artists. Yes, I'm guilty of occasional gig footage or photos, but I don't spend the entire gig glued to my phone and find those who do extremely puzzling - aren't we there at enormous expense to enjoy the music live in our ears and faces?!

Edited December 28, 2022 by Sophoife
Added bit about concerts

[bridiem]

51 minutes ago, FionaE said:

For balance, it would be interesting to get views from the younger generation.  
 

I’ve seen short clips made by UK ballet school students and junior members of UK companies on social media. The purpose of those is to applaud colleagues and dancers that they admire.  They add applause 👏 and similar emojis and and ‘well done’ type comments.  
 

I think the (mostly) older generations in this forum may be misrepresenting the generosity of younger people, particularly on social media.   
 

The dancers posting videos of themselves (whether from the wings or audience) or re-posts of official clips … those obviously ARE self-promotion.   And who else is going to do it, if not themselves?  Only a few have agents.  I notice Friedemann Vogel’s agents regularly repost any audience video and curtain calls.  

 

The self-promotion I was referring to wasn't so much by dancers/students but by ordinary audience members advertising their cultural life to their friends/followers. (Though dancers/students should be even more aware of the importance of the stage/audience bond - if they're not, they're in the wrong profession.) Videos taken from the wings are presumably taken with the permission of the company/dancers and are irrelevant from the point of view of the audience and therefore irrelevant to this discussion. 

[FionaM]

Personally I’m not planning on filming any performance … except curtain calls … as I too am there for the uninterrupted live experience … whether it’s ballet or something else.  
 

However I am grateful for those who do, as afterwards I get great pleasure from reliving the occasion through someone else’s clips.  (Not the whole thing I hasten to add, just short clips). Perhaps the theatres could think about adding this to their social media, which is effectively what AD Eleonora Abbagnato did with Don Q.  

[bridiem]

9 minutes ago, FionaE said:

However I am grateful for those who do, as afterwards I get great pleasure from reliving the occasion through someone else’s clips.  (Not the whole thing I hasten to add, just short clips). Perhaps the theatres could think about adding this to their social media, which is effectively what AD Eleonora Abbagnato did with Don Q.  

 

And thereby breaching their own filming/social media policies? Wouldn't that be ever so slightly ridiculous and self-defeating?? Either they change their policies or they don't post audience clips. (And if the former, they will face major protests!).

[LinMM]

Well I guess none of us is perfect all the time …….Phew Serenade glad you are too young to have been disturbed by my alarm clock going off in a performance of Giselle!! Too long a story to go into here but am sure I wasn’t too popular that night in stalls circle standing area especially in my kerfuffle to try and find it and switch it off hidden down in a rather large dance bag 😳

Unfortunately I’ve also been known to get the giggles on rare occasions when with certain friends about the silliest of things ….usually some costume issue…. but do try to be a reasonable audience member the vast majority of the time which currently means being neurotic about turning off my phone….the alarm clock episode ..… ⏰ looking pretty much like this one….has scarred me for life!!! 
I do hope phones continue to be banned in most theatres but worry that now food and drink is creeping into the auditorium in more and more of them that it might start to become acceptable to allow phones/filming during performances. 
Hopefully the thing guarding against this is that if enough people in the audience were doing it the dancers/actors on stage would find it just too distracting for their performances so it would never gain momentum and so phones will continue to be banned! 
 

[Emeralds]

21 hours ago, FionaE said:

Question … what’s the actual issue with filming at the ballet?  
 

At other music genres … pop/rock … filming isn’t controlled at all.  Clips that are shared serve to increase the audience.  

 

I can understand if it’s disturbing other patrons 

 All filming is disturbing. Even a phone switched to a “dark” mode emits a light when you start filming or photographing, the most discreet “spy” or “paparazzi” camera makes a sound. Imagine being the person in a £150 seat that you’ve saved up for ages to buy as a treat, to have someone whirring and clicking through the stirring, legato melodies of Tchaikovsky, Delibes, etc. and ruining your treat and experience that you’ve waited ages for and sacrificed funds for.

 

While many of us may have the means to attend ballets frequently, and a slightly off day doesn’t mean much to us, for others with important financial obligations (infirm family members, disability, children with educational or special needs expenses, etc) or don’t have the time to go to the theatre more than once or twice a year, someone flashing or clicking their way through the grand pas de deux is not an off day- it’s a selfish act that ruins another person’s or other persons’ once a year  treat. 

 

The light (which may not look bright in daily life outdoors or a bright room) is accentuated 1000 times in a darkened auditorium to look like an extra spotlight which can be distracting or even dangerous for dancers trying to spot turns in fouettes and multiple pirouettes, especially those coordinated with a partner. 

 

Pop and rock concerts are very different as most are held in large indoor arenas or outdoor stadiums (where honking horns and ambulance sirens from passing traffic are part of the atmosphere) where the sound and what you see isn’t meant to be formal and neatly choreographed- performers bring bottles of water (sometimes it’s not water either) to unscrew and drink on the stage, drop drumsticks or other musical equipment accidentally and it’s not considered an error like it would be in ballet or opera (unless you can cover it up), wipe their sweat onstage, etc. People are also allowed in and out during the show, and eating or drinking  during the performance is normal. It’s a far more informal and unchoreographed show, so phones, lights and singing along are just part of it.  They’re completely different to watching ballet in a theatre and comparing them to ballet is like comparing chalk and cheese.

 

Dancers or companies who have brought ballet to outdoor arenas as a different form of entertainment, eg Roberto Bolle, Maurice Bejart, etc, can set different rules about what is or isn’t disruptive -or infringement of copyright. NB some pop singers or bands now ban filming during their shows, eg Madonna, so even the informal practices of most pop/rock shows might not apply to all.

 

Having been part of the generation not having social media or even email (!) in our childhood, and being part of the generation that had to grapple with the drawbacks and dark sides of social media as well as learning to harness its benefits, I think one has to be realistic and honest about why most (maybe not all) people film a theatre show and put it on social media- to show off. Face it, if one posted a video  and the platforms did not show how many views, how many likes or allow any comments, and one couldn’t receive any feedback privately eg through email or social media accounts, one probably won’t even bother filming it. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Emeralds

[bridiem]

8 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Phew Serenade glad you are too young to have been disturbed by my alarm clock going off in a performance of Giselle!!

 

Was it just before she emerged from the grave??!! That would have been quite something.

[Sim]

In one of the early Open Barre podcasts Brandon Lawrence discusses how distracting it is for dancers onstage to be filmed or photographed.  He hates it.  He said that even with stage lights shining all around, you can often see that little red light out there in the audience, or the reflection of the mobile's light.  Those dancers work so hard to give us so much pleasure that I think it's incredibly disrespectful to distract them in any way.  

[LinMM]

😂😂 Bridiem 

I can't remember the exact point now but it was during a very quiet bit of the second Act!! 
It probably only disturbed a few people nearby but at the time I felt the whole theatre could hear it 🙄
 

[DanJL]

The discussion on filming at performances is a really interesting one. I certainly would never like to be distracted by someone filming (and likewise wouldn't want anyone else to be, obviously even worse if it put off the dancers).

 

On the other hand, I have to admit that I regularly benefit from seeing clips of ballets in other countries on Instagram that I would very much like to have attended, but couldn't in reality due to cost and practicalities. This often includes Royal Ballet dancers guesting in roles that they haven't performed in the ROH, as well as some favourite dancers from other companies who rarely visit the UK. In both cases, the dancers regularly re-post these recordings (which is usually how I get to see them). If only there were a way for this to be possible whilst guaranteeing no inconvenience for anyone in the theatre. 

[alison]

2 hours ago, Sim said:

In one of the early Open Barre podcasts Brandon Lawrence discusses how distracting it is for dancers onstage to be filmed or photographed.  He hates it.  He said that even with stage lights shining all around, you can often see that little red light out there in the audience, or the reflection of the mobile's light.  Those dancers work so hard to give us so much pleasure that I think it's incredibly disrespectful to distract them in any way.  

 

Now, that is a side of the question I'm afraid I would never even have thought of - I was only thinking of it from the POV of other audience members, not the artists themselves.

[FionaM]

1 hour ago, alison said:

 

Now, that is a side of the question I'm afraid I would never even have thought of - I was only thinking of it from the POV of other audience members, not the artists themselves.

I agree distracting the artists is not on.  My iPhone 12 has no lights on the dancers’ side.  (Not that I’m personally planning to use it, as I said above.)

[FionaM]

I think we are agreed that “from the wings” is fine.  Here’s a short one of Riho Sakamoto of Dutch National Ballet as Aurora.  Awesome control.
 

Instagram story https://instagram.com/stories/riho_sakamoto/3003073615389382718?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=