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Audience Behaviour - Thread 2


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5 hours ago, Jeannette said:


Hey, Ms Chicken Wings bought a ticket. Nowadays, it’s a balance…bring in new younger audience members. Last year, the Kennedy Center in Wash DC had new rules about drinks with topped cups, for ex. Ye Olde Etiquette no longer works.

Sorry Jeannette, I didn’t really have the correct emoji/response. It was meant to be a shocked emoji 😮 but the thank you reaction also refers to the info about Kennedy Center. So are they allowing drinks with a lid into the auditorium? 

 

Food is a weird category-it doesn’t flash like a smartphone or smart watch does, and it’s not usually noisy unlike talking or slurping a drink noisily. If the woman was in a large box with her own friends and sneaked in a few chicken wings (provided she didn’t choke on the bones....which presents a different problem!) it would probably be ok. But she was seated in an area where the seats are very close together- cheek by jowl, elbow to elbow ....it’s quite rude to eat pungent food just a few inches from someone else’s hair and face. Of course, if she was just taking out cough drops or lozenges to consume to stop herself coughing  loudly or to ease a painful throat, nobody minds. I have brought teenagers to ROH and in fact they’re the ones who put away their phones (even during curtain calls) and wouldn’t dream of eating or talking during the show-to them that is very uncool. 

 

(Just to warn anyone-obviously not our own well mannered forum members- planning to dine on a whole three course dinner picnic in a box at ROH .....there is actually some lighting that illuminated the boxes at ROH, eg at the end of the ballet.... if you chomp away you could be in full view of over 2,000 people- and might even end up being papped during the bows and posted on online.😂.)

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I have just come back from the first night of The Rhinegold at the English National Opera, which in my opinion was a perceptive production and a thrilling success - good to be able to report this after the funding bashing the ENO have taken in the Autumn.

 

But I have to report the bad behaviour of the ushers in the balcony during the performance.  The Rhinegold is performed continuously for two and half hours without an interval, the music plays on without a break through three interludes between the four scenes.  The prelude famously features an extended (136 bar) chord in E flat major, which begins almost inaudibly in the lowest register of eight double basses.  The performance began with a couple of minutes of stage action without music and then the orchestra began "almost inaudibly".  At this point the ushers flung open the doors and led latecomers down both flights of stairs through the audience, showing the way with a torch, allowing them to clatter down the stairs and then making a row of people stand up as they tried to reach their seats.

 

Worse was to come at the end of the first scene.  As the orchestra tried to be heard in the interlude and silent action continued on stage, the ushers flung open the doors again and led a herd of latecomers clattering down each flight of stairs, whilst the music played on.

 

This is the fault of the theatre policy, not the ushers, and they should seat latecomers in boxes, as at Covent Garden.

 

The ushers, however, loitered at the back of the balcony with their walkie-talkies on.  Twice we had to ask them to turn their radios off, because they were interfering with the performance.  I think the problem arises because the ushers at ENO are agency staff, more used to working in theatres presenting musicals or pop concerts.

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Very shocked - or perhaps I shouldn’t be - about the ushers/front of house treatment of the Rhinegold production and their treatment of patrons who have actually bothered to follow the rules and turn up on time or even to be early. If this happened in the balcony, I have no doubt that the ushers did it in the Stalls, Dress Circle or Upper Circle too. 

 

Is it ignorance (“we had no idea that the music is actually continuing to be played during these parts of the performance.....doh”) or is it sheer contempt for the orchestra (“we don’t consider music to be an essential part of the ballet or opera....isn’t it just the “background”, like the set or the curtains? If the singer or dancer hasn’t appeared, nobody cares, do they”) ?!

 

Contempt also actually stems from ignorance. It’s rather like serving ice cream in a restaurant after you’ve left it on a hot surface and it’s completely melted, and believing a customer should still be happy to pay for a dish of melted ice cream liquid. 

 

This follows the same pattern of the front of house staff disappearing during the pause between Acts 1 & 2 of Swan Lake last month at the same theatre, allowing or encouraging patrons to buy and take popcorn into the auditorium to go “CHOMP! CRUUUNCH!’ very loudly during the quietest moments of the adagios, and being oblivious to the photo taking, filming and chattering going on during the show. 

 

If the ROH front of house staff started letting latecomers in during the music at an opera production, Sir Antonio Pappano (music director) would probably go ballistic and have them all fired. (He hasn’t done that, I hasten to add-but that’s because so far the ushers have never done that while he’s been Music Director, as far as we know.) 

 

The veteran staff of the Coliseum who used to be so knowledgeable about productions and had a real love of both art forms have virtually all gone or indeed have probably all been let go. I don’t know who the new staff since January are but they don’t seem to know anything about ushering, never mind opera or ballet. They seem different to all the ushers in November or December, who were still strict about not letting latecomers enter until the interval and not condoning disruptive behaviour in a performance.

 

But the fault lies with the head of the front of house- the supervisor of the ushers, and whoever is duty manager at each show, because they are in charge of which rules are going to be implemented. 

 

We are still considering whether to buy tickets for three remaining productions of the ENO season- they are productions and there are singers we want to see and hear, but the Swan Lake experience was so awful that I’m not sure I can endure it again (plus all the expense and time spent travelling the 22 miles there and back on top of that). And there are others who have told me the same. We pay to hear the entire score, and if 10% of it is going to be cut off by someone else’s contempt for the audience and the composer, then we don’t see why we should be forced to pay for it and made to sit through it. 

 

No idea if this is another attempt by powers that be to drive ENO out of existence, but if it isn’t stopped, it is not going to end well. 

 

Edited by Emeralds
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10 hours ago, li tai po said:

I have just come back from the first night of The Rhinegold at the English National Opera, which in my opinion was a perceptive production and a thrilling success - good to be able to report this after the funding bashing the ENO have taken in the Autumn.

 

But I have to report the bad behaviour of the ushers in the balcony during the performance.  The Rhinegold is performed continuously for two and half hours without an interval, the music plays on without a break through three interludes between the four scenes.  The prelude famously features an extended (136 bar) chord in E flat major, which begins almost inaudibly in the lowest register of eight double basses.  The performance began with a couple of minutes of stage action without music and then the orchestra began "almost inaudibly".  At this point the ushers flung open the doors and led latecomers down both flights of stairs through the audience, showing the way with a torch, allowing them to clatter down the stairs and then making a row of people stand up as they tried to reach their seats.

 

Worse was to come at the end of the first scene.  As the orchestra tried to be heard in the interlude and silent action continued on stage, the ushers flung open the doors again and led a herd of latecomers clattering down each flight of stairs, whilst the music played on.

 

This is the fault of the theatre policy, not the ushers, and they should seat latecomers in boxes, as at Covent Garden.

 

The ushers, however, loitered at the back of the balcony with their walkie-talkies on.  Twice we had to ask them to turn their radios off, because they were interfering with the performance.  I think the problem arises because the ushers at ENO are agency staff, more used to working in theatres presenting musicals or pop concerts.

By the way, li tai po, I just looked carefully at the show website after what you posted... 2 h 45 mins without an interval is well, very unusual indeed.  Not just a problem for latecomers but also audience members who might need the restroom! No doubt it may have its advantages in certain kinds of productions but it’s long even for a film.

 

Wonder if the director should perhaps rethink that and put a pause or interval somewhere. (Also, what if the boxes are occupied or there are too many latecomers to fit into available boxes). 

Edited by Emeralds
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Many years ago I used to be an usher at the Royal Festival Hall for a couple of years and there was one very famous conductor who refused to allow any latecomers in until the interval. Otherwise we would try to admit at a discreet moment. However there were never huge numbers of latecomers just a few. But certainly on “his” night we had to explain they’d just have to wait for the interval.

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On 16/02/2023 at 12:53, Emeralds said:

Sorry Jeannette, I didn’t really have the correct emoji/response. It was meant to be a shocked emoji 😮 but the thank you reaction also refers to the info about Kennedy Center. So are they allowing drinks with a lid into the auditorium? 

 

….


Emeralds, hi - just saw this. This was a year ago, when I still lived in DC. Drinks purchased at intermission were allowed inside the Kennedy Center auditoriums only if they were in a coffee cup with a lid…including leftover champagne, I saw from neighbors. I don’t know if it’s changed…if clear glasses or champagne flutes are allowed into the show. (???)

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5 minutes ago, Jeannette said:


Emeralds, hi - just saw this. This was a year ago, when I still lived in DC. Drinks purchased at intermission were allowed inside the Kennedy Center auditoriums only if they were in a coffee cup with a lid…including leftover champagne, I saw from neighbors. I don’t know if it’s changed…if clear glasses or champagne flutes are allowed into the show. (???)

When I was there yesterday, they officially allow drinks in a specific clear Kennedy Center container with a lid. I did see someone with a plain old unlidded plastic cut. 

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2 hours ago, Emeralds said:

By the way, li tai po, I just looked carefully at the show website after what you posted... 2 h 45 mins without an interval is well, very unusual indeed.  Not just a problem for latecomers but also audience members who might need the restroom! No doubt it may have its advantages in certain kinds of productions but it’s long even for a film.

 

Which might explain the decision to allow latecomers to come in when they did - at what was no doubt considered the least disruptive point(s) in the production.

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2 hours ago, Emeralds said:

Wonder if the director should perhaps rethink that and put a pause or interval somewhere.

 

It's not the director - it's Wagner himself. I can't think of a production of Rheingold where there's been a pause or an interval, and the music doesn't allow for it. There would be many complaints!

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36 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

It's not the director - it's Wagner himself. I can't think of a production of Rheingold where there's been a pause or an interval, and the music doesn't allow for it. There would be many complaints!

I should put in a disclaimer earlier on that I’m one of “those” who doesn’t go to watch Wagner ....yes, one of those! Not just because of the politics/his politics, but more importantly for pragmatic reasons like a) they usually start early while I’m still at work, b) the higher prices (no doubt related to their length, c) not a massive fan of his arias- they just don’t do anything for me, d) the plots don’t  do anything for me either, e) they’re too long for me. I did have a feeling that Rheingold might be one of those marathons which Wagner fans might consider no big deal to sit through 2h 45min without getting leg (or elsewhere) cramps.

 

Anyone here who has attended Bayreuth Festival -

I’m curious as to how Bayreuth does it: is everyone very disciplined and early/punctual and simply doesn’t attempt to go in if they are unexpectedly delayed or is there a latecomers’ area like a different seating area so you don’t disrupt others? 

 

Perhaps what ENO should do is have a separate area for latecomers for this production, eg the last 6 rows of the balcony. Or even the entire balcony area, and make the seats in the last three rows of the Upper Circle balcony prices, but that potentially loses a lot of income. See, this is another reason why I never go to watch Wagner operas....too much fuss. (I found the film Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring bad enough at 178 minutes, although I managed to stay the course, but many patrons had to get up to stretch their legs or use the toilets, and these were all young people! It was quite uncomfortable though. We watched parts 2 & 3 on DVD instead.) 

 

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35 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

 

Which might explain the decision to allow latecomers to come in when they did - at what was no doubt considered the least disruptive point(s) in the production.

I agree-I expect they thought a section with no singing would provoke the least complaint, but I would personally have let people in during the loudest part of the music (even if the curtain was up), because that is technically the least disruptive. I do think any long show over 2 hours with no interval is asking for trouble. Even short shows with no interval  are problematic. I have been to concerts where there is no interval, eg a long symphony, but the bits in between movements are pauses (ie in British concert halls= the time when people start coughing loudly😂), during which they do let people in. These no-interval, no-pause productions are very problematic.....a separate area needs to be cordoned off perhaps! 

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10 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

Perhaps what ENO should do is have a separate area for latecomers for this production, eg the last 6 rows of the balcony. Or even the entire balcony area, and make the seats in the last three rows of the Upper Circle balcony prices

 

They would not, however, reduce prices for the substituted upper circle seats to the level of the cheapest rear balcony seats, which would mean that those who can only afford the cheap seats would no longer be able to afford to attend.

 

Not to mention the dissatisfaction this would cause amongst those who choose the rear balcony seats because this is where the sound carries best.

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13 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

Anyone here who has attended Bayreuth Festival -

I’m curious as to how Bayreuth does it: is everyone very disciplined and early/punctual and simply doesn’t attempt to go in if they are unexpectedly delayed or is there a latecomers’ area like a different seating area so you don’t disrupt others? 

 

I've not been to Bayreuth but I imagine anyone who's gone to the not inconsiderable trouble of getting a ticket there will take extra care to be punctual. As should be expected from most opera (or ballet) audiences, frankly!

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1 minute ago, Scheherezade said:

 

They would not, however, reduce prices for the substituted upper circle seats to the level of the cheapest rear balcony seats, which would mean that those who can only afford the cheap seats would no longer be able to afford to attend.

 

Not to mention the dissatisfaction this would cause amongst those who choose the rear balcony seats because this is where the sound carries best.

Yes, I’ve often picked the last row at the Royal Albert Hall and for operas at ROH because of the sound carries well upwards. There really is no ideal solution. 

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20 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

I've not been to Bayreuth but I imagine anyone who's gone to the not inconsiderable trouble of getting a ticket there will take extra care to be punctual. As should be expected from most opera (or ballet) audiences, frankly!

I think the difference is that Bayreuth is a big occasion, perhaps like going to Glyndebourne- people don’t “pop along after work”, they take the day off (or week off if they fly in for it). Mind you, I did go to Glyndebourne after work once but was a bit surprised at having to apply for time off (half a day) just to “watch opera”! I did find out why when I got there. (That said, Glyndebourne= very long intervals!)

 

But many people do attend RB, ENB, ENO etc after work, which often means a limited amount of time to get there, and one signal failure or “leaves on the line” etc is enough to make them late. It’s a difficult thing to balance- but so long as the venue is in central London there will always be patrons delayed by traffic, on public transport, security incidents, etc despite the best intentions. I don’t know what ROH does if the house is sold out (standing places and all) for Das Rheingold -there is the Royal Box but it can only hold a limited number of people. 

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6 hours ago, LinMM said:

Many years ago I used to be an usher at the Royal Festival Hall for a couple of years and there was one very famous conductor who refused to allow any latecomers in until the interval. Otherwise we would try to admit at a discreet moment. However there were never huge numbers of latecomers just a few. But certainly on “his” night we had to explain they’d just have to wait for the interval.

LinMM, am very curious as to who this conductor was now: Bernard Haitink? Vladimir Ashkenazy? Daniel Barenboim? Colin Davis? Zubin Mehta? (Have I mentioned him already ?) ☺️ I’m in complete agreement with him - I think regular concertgoers would agree too. In fact, we expect it. Actually, Zubin Mehta is still conducting, at the age of 86- impressive!

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3 hours ago, Emeralds said:

But many people do attend RB, ENB, ENO etc after work, which often means a limited amount of time to get there, and one signal failure or “leaves on the line” etc is enough to make them late. It’s a difficult thing to balance- but so long as the venue is in central London there will always be patrons delayed by traffic, on public transport, security incidents, etc despite the best intentions. I don’t know what ROH does if the house is sold out (standing places and all) for Das Rheingold -there is the Royal Box but it can only hold a limited number of people. 

 

But it's not their responsibility, is it? They might let people into a box but that's at their discretion and out of good will. They state clearly that latecomers will not be admitted.

 

I must be very lucky, but out of hundreds of opera and ballet performances, with a full time job and mostly travelling from outside London, I've been late exactly once: my train was very delayed by flooding and I got to the relevant door about 90 seconds past the start. It actually pleased me that a) they'd already started (ROH is regrettably unpunctual in its starts IMO) and b) I wasn't allowed to sneak in.  I'm a strong believer in learned behaviour - once people see others being let in late or performances routinely starting five minutes past the appointed time, they will adjust their own routine.

 

It's not just down to luck, though: the shortest possible journey time from my station to ROH is 2 hours; I *always* allow an extra hour at least, and more if it's important to me not to miss the start. Cutting it fine is something you do at your own risk.

 

With specific reference to the ROH Ring: I don't remember anyone arriving late for any of the last Ring that I attended. Most people had booked a year ahead - there were special booking dates - and weren't going to chance it. (I wouldn't blame anyone for giving Siegfried a miss, though.)

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10 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

But it's not their responsibility, is it? They might let people into a box but that's at their discretion and out of good will. They state clearly that latecomers will not be admitted.

 

I must be very lucky, but out of hundreds of opera and ballet performances, with a full time job and mostly travelling from outside London, I've been late exactly once: my train was very delayed by flooding and I got to the relevant door about 90 seconds past the start. It actually pleased me that a) they'd already started (ROH is regrettably unpunctual in its starts IMO) and b) I wasn't allowed to sneak in.  I'm a strong believer in learned behaviour - once people see others being let in late or performances routinely starting five minutes past the appointed time, they will adjust their own routine.

 

It's not just down to luck, though: the shortest possible journey time from my station to ROH is 2 hours; I *always* allow an extra hour at least, and more if it's important to me not to miss the start. Cutting it fine is something you do at your own risk.

 

With specific reference to the ROH Ring: I don't remember anyone arriving late for any of the last Ring that I attended. Most people had booked a year ahead - there were special booking dates - and weren't going to chance it. (I wouldn't blame anyone for giving Siegfried a miss, though.)

I agree, it’s a slippery slope thing-once people are let in 3 minutes late, then the expectation is, how about letting us in 5 minutes late, and then the psychological expectation is to push it later and later and where does it end.

 

If they operate according to exact timing, then everyone knows where they stand. With at least one interval, the process is straightforward- just wait till the interval. I don’t know what to do if patrons are 90 seconds late for a 2h45min no-interval show though. I remember reading about the special  arrangements for booking the ROH Ring (another reason I don’t watch any of the Ring cycle either-too much fuss just buying the tickets) and I suppose the expense and limited supply of tickets meant people treated it like it was Bayreuth/Glyndebourne/Last Night of the Proms etc - as a special and precious occasion, and hence no/hardly any latecomers.

 

Maybe that’s the problem with the Coliseum tickets for ENO- that because the tickets aren’t as expensive as Ring productions in many other venues and are still relatively  plentiful, it isn’t treated by latecomers and the ushers as something precious enough. (It wasn’t just the late entries but also the noisy walkie talkies of the ushers that disrupted the show). I must admit nowadays I book tickets in venues that let people in during the performing with a degree of caution- I pick seating in the front row where they can’t walk in front of me, and not close to the doors or aisles. (It does limit the options but I’d rather not be interrupted/disturbed.)

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Emeralds …..None of the above lol! …he has the prefix Sir …does that help a bit!! 
At the time my favourite was Ricardo Muti …what a dish… I used to try not to blush if happened to be in the lift with him there. My favourite musician at the time was Izhtak Perlman he was a hilarious character  as well as a wonderful virtuoso on the violin. 
I should add this was back in the very early 80’s and I was 30 something!!! 

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34 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Emeralds …..None of the above lol! …he has the prefix Sir …does that help a bit!! 
At the time my favourite was Ricardo Muti …what a dish… I used to try not to blush if happened to be in the lift with him there. My favourite musician at the time was Izhtak Perlman he was a hilarious character  as well as a wonderful virtuoso on the violin. 
I should add this was back in the very early 80’s and I was 30 something!!! 

Hmm, that’s very interesting, LinMM, and still a lot of people. 😋 So not Sir Colin Davis. Barenboim has an honorary knighthood (as did Haitink) but doesn’t use it of course. So that leaves Simon Rattle, Andrew Davis, Mark Elder, Roger Norrington, George Benjamin (who are all knighted and still alive).....have I left anyone out? 😀 Riccardo Muti is certainly charismatic. Perlman is one of my fave violinists of all time. PS. Sorry I can’t click any likes ....I have apparently used up today’s limit! 

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17 minutes ago, LinMM said:

74D80EE7-9AC2-4054-A963-69B7DA7E258A.jpeg

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a photo of him this young.....lol. Great pic. Looks like the photos of Rattle, Edward Gardner and Mark Wigglesworth in their youth. They don’t look alike, of course, but they all seem to dress that way. Great find!

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On 16/02/2023 at 00:16, Linnzi5 said:

I am the same. If I politely ask someone to turn their phone off or stop talking, I feel tense for quite a while. It takes a lot for me to actually ask someone to stop doing something they're not allowed to do and I suppose by the time I actually pluck up the courage to speak, I am already stressed. I cannot understand why people are so thoughtless. It seems to be happening much more these days. I have yet to encounter someone eating chicken wings during a performance - I sincerely hope I never do!


I agree. I often speak out because I’ve tried my best to ignore it or hope whatever the offending behaviour is will stop, but if it goes on for a while and I start to get distracted thinking about it I’m already distracted (!) so then I say something. It is quite stressful and anxiety inducing. If the person is reasonable we all move on. But if they respond negatively it remains a stressful situation and I wonder if they will continue the behaviour deliberately to annoy.
 

I find it quite disgusting to eat something greasy and pungent in an enclosed space - where smells can be a distraction as much as noise/movement. Nothing against chicken wings generally but totally inappropriate for a theatre. Also eating in the dark just feels very messy and not enjoyable to me - eating mindlessly for the sake of it rather than enjoying the food. 
 

if you really must eat why not at the interval not in the auditorium!

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3 hours ago, JNC said:

 

I find it quite disgusting to eat something greasy and pungent in an enclosed space - where smells can be a distraction as much as noise/movement. Nothing against chicken wings generally but totally inappropriate for a theatre. Also eating in the dark just feels very messy and not enjoyable to me - eating mindlessly for the sake of it rather than enjoying the food.

 

A truncated version of the Alliance Française French Film Festival spends a couple of days in Albury. The last time I went, someone decided that a platter of nachos (stinky, greasy, microwaved, and stinky) was an appropriate accompaniment to a film. I complained to an usher, only to be told "We sell the nachos at our snack bar so they can bring it in if they like" 😳🙄😡🤢 They still sell them, I've checked. But you're not allowed to take in your own water.

 

Unfortunately we have only one cinema complex in our area. As they no longer show the Royal Ballet streams and I have to drive a 7-hour round trip to my nearest ones (Canberra or Melbourne) anyway, I have chosen to spend all my cinema money in places that don't sell/allow such food, making it a weekend trip with three or four films so at least worth the effort.

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I think the usher did her very best telling the latecomers they mustn’t enter as the performance had already started but the latecomers were adamant. There was a fair amount of disruption, particularly unwelcome in the Act 1 Prelude. I rather hoped the Front of House manager might have made an appearance at the interval and red carded the latecomers. I’m sure Solti would have approved of such action.

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Flash photography from members of the audience was particularly noticeable in the first part of the Ballet Icons Gala, despite the ushers walking through the aisles (in the balcony at least) holding up signs stating no photographs. To be fair, however, most people wouldn't have seen them as I only caught them by looking around the auditorium by chance at precisely the right moment.

 

The photography was so bad - one particularly disconcerting flash from one of the boxes looked as though it might have momentarily blinded the dancers - that a firm announcement not to take photographs, citing the effect on the dancers, was made just before curtain up for the second half, to loud applause all round. Merely seconds into the following piece, another bright flash came from the same box, followed by more from the balcony.

 

The new 'eat-and-drink-all-you-can during the performance' policy was also firmly in evidence. To the all-pervading smell of popcorn, the couple behind me munched and slurped non-stop during both parts of the gala, in between exchanging comments whenever they could. There was so much discarded food on the floor when they left that it looked for all the world as though an urban fox had been let loose on the contents of an unlidded dustbin.

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3 hours ago, Scheherezade said:

The new 'eat-and-drink-all-you-can during the performance' policy was also firmly in evidence. To the all-pervading smell of popcorn, the couple behind me munched and slurped non-stop during both parts of the gala, in between exchanging comments whenever they could. There was so much discarded food on the floor when they left that it looked for all the world as though an urban fox had been let loose on the contents of an unlidded dustbin.

 

Frankly, this sort of selfishness puts me off going to the Coliseum, and a lesser extent, Sadlers Wells

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