Audience Behaviour - Thread 2

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

Hello members.  As the previous Audience Behaviour thread had run for 10 years and to 96 pages, we have decided to keep it closed and start a new one here.  We would request, as per our AUP, for comments and discussion to be respectful.  

 

Thanks, and over to you...

[Blossom]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CmU4QPNIbG-/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

As a starter for 10, Graham Watts’ latest post about a performance is worth a read. 

[Sim]

Yes I saw it on Facebook and asked what the ushers were doing when all that was going on!  

[TSR101]

As per Nutcracker Thread, there was awful behaviour in my performance in the stalls. None of the stalls people appeared in a position to see it and therefore do anything but a member of staff in stalls circle clearly spotted them filming and did nothing unfortunately. Do they not have a way of communicating to each other quietly by radio or something?

[MJW]

Perhaps a complaint to ROH is required if staff aren't doing their jobs properly. There is little point in having a policy forbidding filming or the taking of photos during a performance and asking everyone to switch off their mobiles etc if it isn't enforced. It is clearly difficult if perhaps someone is sitting in the middle of the Stalls but perhaps a quiet word during an interval and a further announcement regarding filming etc at the start of the next act?

 

Thankfully (touch wood) I've rarely seen anything too flagrant - I did have to ask someone to switch off their 'phone for a Nutcracker some years ago.

[Nina99]

I do voluntary part-time work as an usher in a certain medium size concert hall in London and I would say that taking photos by the audience is one of our major problems. The thing is with it anything can be done about it it’s often a matter of where the person is sitting. If they’re in the middle of a row towards the front of the auditorium it’s very difficult to get them to stop filming while the performance is going on, without causing disruption.

 

 

[Fairy]

My program was stolen from under my seat by the person sitting behind me during a ballet performance this year, I put it down for 5 seconds and it was gone! This was at the ROH.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Fairy

[Jan McNulty]

Hello Fairy and welcome to the Forum!

[AnneMarriott]

11 hours ago, Fairy said:

My program was stolen from under my seat by the person sitting behind me during a ballet performance this year, I put it down for 5 seconds and it was gone! This was at the ROH.

That's really nasty!

[Emeralds]

On 20/12/2022 at 19:31, Fairy said:

My program was stolen from under my seat by the person sitting behind me during a ballet performance this year, I put it down for 5 seconds and it was gone! This was at the ROH.

You poor thing, Fairy! I’ve heard of awful behaviour but theft is appalling! 

[Emeralds]

This season at the ROH, ushering standards have ranged from wonderfully kind to shocking bad, once in the same show but in different areas of the building.

 

Train cancellations caused us to be late for the start of an opera so we were prepared to wait and maybe watch on the little screen until the interval (it was very long so we’d still get our “money’s worth”! The manager on duty tells us to wait and they would let us in quietly (with several other latecomers) into an unsold box - turns out the box is the Royal Box. Very unexpected and admittedly nicer to hear the arias live instead of poor sound on a tv.

 

After finding our seats at the interval (which were the last row just in front of standing room), as the conductor was walking in after the house lights were dimmed, I hear the young usher telling the people standing  behind me, “you’re welcome to sit in the unoccupied seats”....resulting in several rushing in front of seated patrons and clattering noisily into the seats as the singing began! 

 

Not only that, but as they had previously had an unrestricted view because they were standing up, they now found the rows in front of them slightly obscured their views of the orchestra pit and the very front edge of the stage, so they proceeded to lean forward, blocking us and other audience members in the row behind them. I had considered buying standing room for this show when the performance was sold out before Friday Rush, so I know that they had paid only one third of the price I’d paid for my tickets- it’s pretty appalling that the usher had invited them to sit in seats they hadn’t paid for while disrupting the show for others. 

 

Another performance: audience member in my section but too far away for me to get her attention, whips out her phone at the start of second act of Nutcracker and proceeds to start filming Yasmine Naghdi and Matthew Ball while they were dancing! At least one usher must have been able to see the light from the screen but nobody does anything. She stopped filming when the brief dancing interlude ended. 

 

At London Coliseum, when a man in the middle of a row began filming, the usher got on to it very quickly. She reached him by asking silently (in mime/gestures) a patron in the row behind to get his attention. He tapped the man on the shoulder and pointed to the usher, who gestured to him silently and with a “I mean business” look to turn his phone off and he obeyed.

 

There’s always an effective way to do it. As long as it’s not the ushers themselves aiding and abetting the disruptive behaviour.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Emeralds

[Blossom]

16 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

 

 

Another performance: audience member in my section but too far away for me to get her attention, whips out her phone at the start of second act of Nutcracker and proceeds to start filming Yasmine Naghdi and Matthew Ball while they were dancing! At least one usher must have been able to see the light from the screen but nobody does anything. She stopped filming when the brief dancing interlude ended. 

Was this someone in balcony standing yesterday? I saw also… I am a bit horrified that people seem to think it’s ok and also to miss the actual live performance!!! 

 

In terms of the your other issues @Emeralds I think that this is complaint worthy and hope you wrote to ROH. 

[Emeralds]

3 minutes ago, Blossom said:

Was this someone in balcony standing yesterday? I saw also… I am a bit horrified that people seem to think it’s ok and also to miss the actual live performance!!! 

 

In terms of the your other issues @Emeralds I think that this is complaint worthy and hope you wrote to ROH. 

The young woman filming was indeed on the balcony level but was seated. Looks like there were two people filming! Maybe they need to repeat the “no filming/photographing during the show” announcement at the start of every act as some folk seem to have conveniently “forgotten” after the interval! 

[akh]

On 20/12/2022 at 00:30, Nina99 said:

I do voluntary part-time work as an usher in a certain medium size concert hall in London and I would say that taking photos by the audience is one of our major problems. The thing is with it anything can be done about it it’s often a matter of where the person is sitting. If they’re in the middle of a row towards the front of the auditorium it’s very difficult to get them to stop filming while the performance is going on, without causing disruption.

 

 

I also do voluntary work in theatres and agree it's so difficult to gain their attention and get them to stop. Some people can be quite abusive when you ask them to stop using their phone. Be assured we do try and do our best in our theatres here. 

[FionaM]

Question … what’s the actual issue with filming at the ballet?  
 

At other music genres … pop/rock … filming isn’t controlled at all.  Clips that are shared serve to increase the audience.  

 

I can understand if it’s disturbing other patrons 

[MJW]

28 minutes ago, FionaE said:

Question … what’s the actual issue with filming at the ballet?  
 

At other music genres … pop/rock … filming isn’t controlled at all.  Clips that are shared serve to increase the audience.  

 

I can understand if it’s disturbing other patrons 

 

It is disturbing and distracting to others in the audience and quite possibly to those on stage as well - hence the ban.

[AnneMarriott]

I have very little experience of pop or rock concerts - three in total in my long life so far - but from what I have seen on television the audience is part of the experience, waving arms, holding mobile phones aloft, singing along etc. whereas ballet, like music concerts or straight theatre (I don't include musicals) is expected to be enjoyed without audience participation except for applause at appropriate moments.  Who cares if the view of the stage is blocked by audience behaviour when there are giant screens all around and the performers are actively encouraging the crowd to get involved?  Forgive me if I'm stating the blindingly obvious, but that isn't the case at the ballet - even discreet use of mobile phones to film the action is distracting to say the least.   

[Sim]

There are probably copyright issues in addition to the disturbance it creates for the audience.  However, filming seems to be accepted (tacitly or otherwise) in Russia by audiences, ushers and the companies.  

[Jan McNulty]

22 minutes ago, Sim said:

There are probably copyright issues in addition to the disturbance it creates for the audience.  However, filming seems to be accepted (tacitly or otherwise) in Russia by audiences, ushers and the companies.  

 

I believe there are copyright issues.

 

Do people try and film opera?  

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs, filming during the performance is discourteous to and disruptive for other audience members.

[FionaM]

3 hours ago, Sim said:

However, filming seems to be accepted (tacitly or otherwise) in Russia by audiences, ushers and the companies.  

I’d argue that as long as the filming and any sharing later is discrete … then this practice actually encourages more people to attend.  Nobody is going to post 2-3 hours of a show … and audience filmed clips are not good quality obviously.  So where is the harm.  

 

Dancers everywhere who get clips, repost them and there is no harm there either.  It enhances their reputation and again encourages more audience.  
 

I think it’s something theatre leaders in UK should be thinking about to increase their audience.  

 

I’ve no doubt I’m in the minority here … just observing that it works ‘for’ rather than ‘against’ the performers and theatres.  It’s going to take a significant shift in mindset to change this way of thinking. 
 

Did you know it’s possible to buy glasses with hidden video cameras inbuilt?   So it’s probably happening anyway!

Edited December 27, 2022 by FionaE
Typos

[Peony]

It must be nerve wracking enough for the dancers without the thought that every single performance including the mishaps will be filmed and shared. Personally I hate watching a performance through a sea of phones and iPads whether it’s a pop concert or anything else. Just be in the moment and concentrate on watching!

[alison]

4 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

I believe there are copyright issues.

 

Yes, potentially music, stage designs and costumes, I believe - and possibly choreography.

[FionaM]

Ah music copyright .. that’s another mess to discuss sometime.  The big corporations have too much power.  I post short clips of live dance performances and regularly get multiple music claims against each.   Their algorithm matches sections of the live show to sections from their recordings.  All of which are therefore false claims.  Sigh.  

[TSR101]

1 hour ago, FionaE said:

I’d argue that as long as the filming and any sharing later is discrete … then this practice actually encourages more people to attend.  Nobody is going to post 2-3 hours of a show … and audience filmed clips are not good quality obviously.  So where is the harm.  

 

Dancers everywhere who get clips, repost them and there is no harm there either.  It enhances their reputation and again encourages more audience.  
 

I think it’s something theatre leaders in UK should be thinking about to increase their audience.  

 

I’ve no doubt I’m in the minority here … just observing that it works ‘for’ rather than ‘against’ the performers and theatres.  It’s going to take a significant shift in mindset to change this way of thinking. 
 

Did you know it’s possible to buy glasses with hidden video cameras inbuilt?   So it’s probably happening anyway!

 

It is very rare in the ROH for people to film - and its noticeable that ROH dancers don't appear to share clips of filmed performances on social media as far as I have seen (very different to how Bolshoi/Mariinsky etc do it as you have noted) which suggests to me that the management at ROH have set rules on this so not to encourage it. 

 

I 100% disagree that it needs to be encouraged to bring in a new audience. What ROH management have failed to understand is rather than needing to make ROH less elite looking and more 'of the people' what will actually draw younger audiences would be playing up the experience value of it - as as part of that this includes the sense of there are pictures to be taken/shared etc which drives so much activity now. However, that experience doesn't require filming of the dancing IMO. The new spaces are for example are badly designed, bland and dull and not glamorous (who would want to be pictures there). All in an effort to appear more welcoming and less elitist. The ROH advertising campaign doesn't play up the event value of a night at the ROH at all and doesn't seem to understand this element of how society functions. The ROH could encourage curtain call pictures (which they tacitly approve of without saying anything) and then tailor the curtain call to allow for it.  

 

[Sophoife]

The design of the curtain of the State Theatre in Melbourne (a stylised lyrebird tail) is copyrighted and I have frequently seen and heard people being told not to photograph it. Which is of course often ignored.

 

@FionaEI'm amazed you haven't been banned if you "regularly get multiple music claims against each" of the clips you post.

[FionaM]

54 minutes ago, Sophoife said:

 

@FionaEI'm amazed you haven't been banned if you "regularly get multiple music claims against each" of the clips you post.

I dispute the claims with truth.  Which is accepted.  I’ve not violated anything.  They have … with their over-aggressive algorithms.  
 

And the point is  … their own algorithm should realise that multiple artists cannot claim against one post.  

[serenade]

2 hours ago, FionaE said:

I’d argue that as long as the filming and any sharing later is discrete … then this practice actually encourages more people to attend.  Nobody is going to post 2-3 hours of a show … and audience filmed clips are not good quality obviously.  So where is the harm.  

 

Dancers everywhere who get clips, repost them and there is no harm there either.  It enhances their reputation and again encourages more audience.  
 

I think it’s something theatre leaders in UK should be thinking about to increase their audience.  

 

I’ve no doubt I’m in the minority here … just observing that it works ‘for’ rather than ‘against’ the performers and theatres.  It’s going to take a significant shift in mindset to change this way of thinking. 
 

Did you know it’s possible to buy glasses with hidden video cameras inbuilt?   So it’s probably happening anyway!

I think like others have said the harm is in ruining other people’s experiences. It is so expensive to go to the ballet and then to be sat behind someone who had their phone out filming would absolutely ruin it for me at least. 
 

obviously we as ballet fans would absolutely love to see footage of alternate casts but for me not at the expense of other audience members. And unless the filming is extremely covert (like the creepy glasses with hidden video cameras you mention which are the stuff of nightmares) then it is going to ruin the night for everyone sitting behind and to the people sitting on the immediate sides of the person filming (unless they are extremely easy going about having the light of someone’s camera in their eye line). 

 

Lastly I think filming might have encouraged people to attend in the days before the companies posted their own footage but at the end of the day most of the big companies have a nice amount of footage and (imo anyway) the vast majority of people who would be watching this kind of thing online are already massive ballet fans, I can’t see it attracting more audiences personally. 

[bridiem]

6 hours ago, Peony said:

Just be in the moment and concentrate on watching!

 

This is crucial. If you're filming, you're not fully experiencing the performance first hand which is the whole point of being there - it's being filtered by a screen and your mind is partly on the process of filming. So a) it makes it completely pointless for you as a live performance experience; b) it ruins the experience for everyone else in the vicinity; and c) it therefore breaks the performers/audience bond which is precisely what is so unique and necessary about a live performance experience. I'm not talking about pop/rock concerts where the link between performers and audience is different and based on vocal/physical participation by the audience; ballet is different and the bond is based on silence and complete absorption in the performance (on a good night!). That seems to be an increasingly difficult concept for people to understand nowadays, presumably because of social media. But theatre/ballet is not social media - it's real.

[JNC]

Agree with the many comments above already. The point of going to see a live performance is the magic of the audience experience, seeing it with your own eyes…

 

not through your phone screen or worse through the phone screen of others!! I find it incredibly rude to fellow audience members, the dancers, the orchestra to whip out your phone. And for what - a wobbly, low res video you can view on Instagram that no one will be impressed by! 
 

I genuinely can’t understand it - buy a dvd, write notes of the performance for yourself, watch it at home or the cinema, take pictures of the building during interval or before curtain up  - don’t bother to come to ROH! I would probably stop attending ROH if they allowed filming, it’s already putting me off that people are getting away with doing it covertly. Stop spoiling the magic for yourself and others! 

[San Perregrino]

I don’t believe that there can be such a thing as ‘discreet’ filming in a dark auditorium. A bright phone screen (sometimes accompanied by a shutter clicking) suddenly illuminating in my sight line to the stage is like a meteor in a dark sky or a lighthouse beacon on a dark and stormy night. It attracts my attention, destroys my concentration and breaks the magical spell of a collective audience connection to that imaginary world that is being created and lived onstage by dancers or performers. As such, as with talking during a performance, I feel that this kind of unwarranted unnecessary intrusion is selfish, inconsiderate, insensitive and disrespectful to other audience members.
A while ago, I think that there was an instruction to RB dancers not to post unauthorised clips filmed  ‘mid-performance’ on their social media profiles. I don’t know if this guideline still exists. 
I freely admit that I take curtain call photos and, from time to time, these are reposted by dancers. But, the photos are taken after, not during the event, an activity that is allowed by the ROH. To summarise:

Before: yes, After: yes

During: A resounding No! 

Edited December 28, 2022 by PeterS

[Mary]

I agree whole heartedly with all of the above.  The whole point is to be there.

But also, we all know how unsatisfactory even  the best professional film of the performance can be. How much more so in the case of a little video made on a hand- held phone. It is not going to be very good!

 

[FionaM]

Here’s an example of how life is moving on in this regard … 

 

A clip of Iana Salenko in Don Q in Rome … posted by the Artistic Director of Rome Ballet herself, Eleonora Abbagnato

 

https://instagram.com/stories/eleonoraabbagnatoofficial/3002688563013077178?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

I notice Ms Abbagnato has also re-posted other audience videos.  

Edited December 28, 2022 by FionaE

[FionaM]

55 minutes ago, Mary said:

I agree whole heartedly with all of the above.  The whole point is to be there.

But also, we all know how unsatisfactory even  the best professional film of the performance can be. How much more so in the case of a little video made on a hand- held phone. It is not going to be very good!

 

The point of the audience video is not to be good quality or professional  … but to give a flavour to those not attending of what they have missed by not being at the live performance!