Starting pointe at 9yo

[Millicent]

My DD's dance school starts girls en pointe around the age of 12, 11 at the very earliest if they are really strong. I've always understood that starting earlier than this risks damage to their feet and joints.

 

My friend's DD (who doesn't live locally to me) wants to join a new dance school as she doesn't feel she's being stretched enough at her current one. The one that has been recommended to her is an "elite" school that requires auditions to get in. She's had an audition and been offered a place but my friend has just found out that they put all their girls on pointe at 9yo. 

 

I'm not sure if I should say anything to my friend as she's not that knowledgeable about ballet and I don't want her DD to be harmed. On the other hand, perhaps this is now accepted practice in "elite" schools and I don't want to risk saying anything unless this is a big red flag?

 

So just wondering if it's still considered a big no no to go on pointe so early? I know that other countries such as Russia, China and the US often show very young dancers en pointe. Is there any advantage to doing it so young?

[Jewel]

It’s considered an even bigger no than it used to be as more is known about injuries etc. 
 

The Royal Ballet school out their girls en pointe in Year 7. Some associates will have stated basic pointe in year 6. They are “elite” not some school that have given themselves the title. 

[Millicent]

But in Year 6 they will only be 10/11?

 

It worries me that if the dance school is doing this, what other bad practices they might have.

[alison]

I thought the point (no pun intended) of putting girls on pointe was that you should do it when they are physically and technically ready for it?  A blanket policy at 9 yo is something I would worry about.

[NJH]

3 hours ago, Millicent said:

But in Year 6 they will only be 10/11?

 

It worries me that if the dance school is doing this, what other bad practices they might have.

and the y6  age  associates or just starting Inter foundation  doing pointe will be doing  rises , releves, echappes and couru at the Barre and progressing to  echappers and releves  in the centre ... 

[Millicent]

Are you saying that's OK to do at age 10/11 if they're ready?

[sunrise81]

My DD is in yr 8 at Elmhurst. They normally wait until til after Xmas of year 7 to start pointe. They focus a lot on building up strength in their feet and ankles. Because of lockdown it wasn't until after Easter of yr 7 that she had her very first pointe class. She was 12 and a half, and she was really upset about having wait so long, especially when friends of hers at RBS and Moorlands started in September. I have to say that waiting I think has benefitted her. She is incredibly strong, and she doesn't look wobbly.......which is something she notices on some of the insta videos of younger ones en pointe. I am sure there are younger ones who are ready at that age but I am very glad that she waited, and was able to build up her strength first.

[Peony]

Some schools definitely do this, is it more associated with Russian training methods? I’m not sure how uncommon it is within some circles as there are a lot of year 7s who are far too competent en pointe to have only just started pointe work. 
The arguments about waiting make a lot of sense to me.however, if you look at RBS they start when a lot of girls are pre-pubescent too so surely their feet aren’t sufficiently developed according to many? Or does it not matter so much if you are handpicked physique wise and are doing enough training to be strong and have good technique?

Edited December 31, 2021 by Peony

[glowlight]

I'm just a dance mum, but from everything I have seen and read, most responsible teachers look at each girl on and individual basis to see determine if she is ready.  My dd started pointe when she was 11 I think (its a long time ago now!) In her pointe class there was 16 year olds just starting on pointe.  I think the youngest in her school on pointe at the time was 8 or 9, but she was incredibly strong AND doing a lot of ballet classes at the time.

 

It may be that your friend has misunderstood what is going on.  Might be worth a casual mention from you to suggest she looks into it further.

[Anna C]

I’d say 9 is way too young.  Dd was just turning 12 when Central Preps started her class en pointe; they had been doing rises/strengthening exercises and working in soft blocks/demi-pointe shoes for quite a while before that.  

 

There may be the odd 9 year old who has started her periods and has the necessary strength and ossification of the small bones in her feet but I’d say that’s the exception, and no reason to put a whole class en pointe before 11.  Apart from anything else, what’s the hurry?

 

If your friend doesn’t think she’s being “stretched” enough at her current school, then I’d be looking for different things than a school calling itself “elite” while having a blanket policy of putting 9 year-olds en pointe.

 

 

 

 

[balletbean]

1 hour ago, Anna C said:

I’d say 9 is way too young.  Dd was just turning 12 when Central Preps started her class en pointe; they had been doing rises/strengthening exercises and working in soft blocks/demi-pointe shoes for quite a while before that.  

 

There may be the odd 9 year old who has started her periods and has the necessary strength and ossification of the small bones in her feet but I’d say that’s the exception, and no reason to put a whole class en pointe before 11.  Apart from anything else, what’s the hurry?

 

If your friend doesn’t think she’s being “stretched” enough at her current school, then I’d be looking for different things than a school calling itself “elite” while having a blanket policy of putting 9 year-olds en pointe.

 

 

 

 

I agree. 9yrs old is far too young. Physically, mentally and technically.  
I also don’t understand the rush by some schools to put their girls en pointe. I wonder whether these schools that advertise going en pointe so early is bring used as a selling point for their school (aka business). Therefore is this announcement recent so they don’t have any evidence that this practice is even beneficial in the long run ie future vocational training and careers of their former pupils?
My DD’s old local ballet school did have a policy. The policy being a pupil would have to at least have passed their RAD grade 4 and were now in Grade 5 and training for their IF. Still no automatic guarantees either as they were individually assessed as the term progressed by the teacher to even be able to buy their first pointe shoe.  Shoes which the teacher again had to check before ribbons were sewn on. This policy has been in place for decades so must be working, not just their exam results but also the achievements by their former pupils. 
The local dance festival won’t even allow any girl to wear let alone perform in pointe shoes until they are at least 14yrs old. Irrespective of how long they had been en pointe for. 

[glowlight]

Interestingly - I have found it difficult to find what type of injury might happen if a girl goes on pointe too young.  I was trying to find out as part of research for a novel, but really didn't get very far.  If anyone knows specifics I would be really interested to hear.

[Fiz]

4 hours ago, balletbean said:

My DD’s old local ballet school did have a policy. The policy being a pupil would have to at least have passed their RAD grade 4 and were now in Grade 5 and training for their IF. Still no automatic guarantees either as they were individually assessed as the term progressed by the teacher to even be able to buy their first pointe shoe.  Shoes which the teacher again had to check before ribbons were sewn on. This policy has been in place for decades so must be working, not just their exam results but also the achievements by their former pupils. 
 

My dds dance school had exactly the same policy. No ifs or buts. 

[Pups_mum]

2 hours ago, glowlight said:

Interestingly - I have found it difficult to find what type of injury might happen if a girl goes on pointe too young.  I was trying to find out as part of research for a novel, but really didn't get very far.  If anyone knows specifics I would be really interested to hear.

I'm not an expert, but as I understand it, there are both risks of acute injury and long term damage. If a girl doesn't yet have the physical strength and technical abilities to get up, and stay up en pointe correctly then they are more likely to get injured either by falls/twisting injuries etc or things like muscle strains because they are using the wrong muscles or using muscles incorrectly to find "cheats" to attempt things that they aren't yet really capable of. 

Longer term it's about putting significant loads through immature joints and bones leading to damage and deformity in later life. Let's face it, beautiful though it is, dancing en pointe is extremely unnatural and it can't be good for anybody's feet and ankles, but for a child where the bones are still developing and the growth plates haven't fused, the risks of damage must be more.

Speaking as someone who has severe arthritis in one of my feet following an accident, it's pretty awful and not something I would wish on anyone, if it can be avoided. Unfortunately of course these kind of things aren't entirely predictable and no little girl who is excited about the prospect of her first pair of pointe shoes is going to think "Oh, hang on, I might end up with crippling arthritis in the future and after all  this is almost certainly not going to be my lifelong careeer so maybe I should wait a couple of years." No, of course all she dreams about is bring a ballerina and pointe shoes are such a rite of passage that it is very tempting to overlook the downsides. With hindsight I wish I had insisted on my DD waiting longer, but fingers crossed she doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects as yet and she's in her mid 20s now. On the whole, I think it's not something to rush into and I would be very dubious about any school with  a significant number of primary school aged children en pointe. I'm not sure such early pointe work is "beneficial" anyway - I doubt there will be significant difference in a girl who started at 9 or 10 and one of otherwise similar abilities who began 2 or 3 years later by the time they are in their mid teens. There seems to be a significant risk for no meaningful benefit as far as I can see.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Pups_mum
Typos

[taxi4ballet]

I'd be very surprised if there is any school in the UK with a sufficient supply of 9-year-olds all talented enough (and sufficiently advanced both physically and technically) for a whole class to be going on pointe all together at that age.

 

Very surprised indeed. And not a little concerned.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by taxi4ballet

[Millicent]

Thank you everyone, this has confirmed my concerns and I will share them with my friend. I'm not 100% sure it's a blanket policy to put all of their 9yos en pointe but my friend watched a class of 9yos and they were all starting pointe work. All in Year 5 at school. 

[Thecatsmother]

https://allaboutpointe.weebly.com/to-the-parent.html

[Millicent]

Thanks for this link, very interesting and good to have some solid facts to be able to share with my friend. 

[Blue Box Ballet]

https://iadms.org/media/5779/iadms-resource-paper-guidelines-for-initiating-pointe-training.pdf

[Neverdancedjustamum]

Sadly, I think that a school that starts their students on pointe at such a young age will prove to be an attraction to some. As with a lot of things these days, there seem to be extreme competition and it’s almost always a race: who gets to go on pointe earlier, who trains the most hours, who has the most associates/teachers/genres/classes/intensives. I may be wrong but although top

vocational schools start their  students on pointe at some stage during year 7, I am willing to bet that most, if not all, year 7s have already been on pointe prior to starting year 7. With a particular school in mind, I would actually guess that a significant percentage would have been on pointe for more than a year.  It’s more obvious these days because worryingly, a lot of these are in the public domain via schools and students’ posts.

[NJH]

4 hours ago, CMcBallet said:

https://iadms.org/media/5779/iadms-resource-paper-guidelines-for-initiating-pointe-training.pdf

I find  those 'Guidelines'   to be  some what less than ideal and  frankly  in any other clinical  environment (even ones with a paucity of evidence and no time  or effort being spent on them ) a number of them would be laughed out of the room ,  and I  say  that is as as someone with a Clinician  background and  experience in  Governance. 

 

for clarity 

1.  given the discussion  ref  bone maturity  elsewhere in the paper why 12 ?   

2. total agreement, however   where is the 'consider implementing a strength and conditioning programme' to address  this  if it's soft tissue rather than bony ) 
 

3.  why ? there needs to be  evidence to  justify this - it strikes me as the kind of statement that would be made by a vocational school to  lock other teachers and students who  did  not  get it at 11/12  out   ( and given the  attrition rates of  full time vocational training ... ) 

4. total agreement 

5. total agreement 

6. broadly in agreement 

7. again a statement  that seems to be designed to lock  certain dancers out of pointe training   and  has  significant  legal  implications that obviously have not be  considered   also makes a mockery of the chance to dance / spotted type stuff ) 

all in all   some  schoolgirl  errors in sometimes purporting to be a clinical guideline to inform regulatory  postions .

 

[Blue Box Ballet]

7 hours ago, CMcBallet said:

https://iadms.org/media/5779/iadms-resource-paper-guidelines-for-initiating-pointe-training.pdf

For clarity on the resource papers purpose.

 

‘IADMS Resource Papers highlight specific areas of research in the field of dance medicine & science. These papers are published with the purpose of disseminating scientifically sound information to the public and are suitable for dance educators, dance teachers, dancers, and parents of dancers.   There are also research-focused resource papers available for those in medical and scientific research and academia that can be found here.’

Functional Criteria for Assessing Pointe Readiness. (Page 6&7)

 

https://iadms.org/media/2945/iadms-bulletin-vol6n1.pdf

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by CMcBallet
Clarity

[Kate_N]

@CMcBalletthanks for linking us to the IADMS site - I keep forgetting how to get there. They have such good resources, from experts in both human physiology and dance, and that checklist is really helpful.  It makes the point that there’s no set or blanket age for starting pointe, although it seems that 12 is the youngest  age it should be considered.   But more importantly, the checklist focuses on technical (as opposed  to physiological) readiness - being able to hold turn out, alignment, strength, and basic flexibility etc.  I wince when I see some children on pointe (and that’s before I have to look away from adults on pointe who shouldn’t be) - not able to straighten their knees or hold their turnout on Demi pointe, and worse on pointe.

 

Delaying starting pointe really doesn’t hold a dancer back in technical terms - indeed it probably means that when a young girl does go up, she’s stronger and more capable and catches up quickly.

 

Our US-based “sister site” has a really interesting series of pinned posts by truly expert teachers, 

“The facts of life about pointe” and they’re really clear that pointe isn’t for everyone.  This might be a useful link to send to your friend, @Millicent

It’s quite similar in spirit to the link to Lisa Howell, and the IADMS paper - so there seems to be a consensus, which might reassure your friend ( or make her anxious - eek)

The author is an ex-professional soloist with American Ballet Theatre, and has just retired as a master teacher (I think she helps judge Youth America Grand Prix and other international competitions still)

 

https://dancers.invisionzone.com/topic/7125-facts-of-life-about-pointe-work/

 

her third point is probably the kind of guideline/rule of thumb which would be useful for your friend:

 

3. In a properly graded school with teachers who know what they are doing, students who have the potential to progress to the pointe level will be encouraged into at least 3 one hour and a half classes a week by the time they reach the age of 10 or 11 and have had 2 to 4 years of training. Pointe work would begin for these students as they arrive at the age of 12 or older and have at least 3 years of training.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Kate_N
Clarity and bad typing

[Anna C]

Thanks Kate, that’s interesting.  Going off-topic very slightly, has YAGP changed its rules around performing en pointe?  I see from the rules/regs that they now “strongly discourage” 11 year olds from performing en pointe, and age 10 and under are strictly prohibited from performing en pointe.  I’m sure in the past there have been quite little girls en pointe, but I may be mis-remembering (or the girls may have been small for their age).

 

If they can prohibit 10 and under, I’m surprised they only “strongly discourage” 11 year olds performing en pointe, because to get to the standard of performing a competition variation en pointe at 11, suggests that the entrant started pointe at least a year before, probably two. 🧐

 

 

 

 

 

[MissEmily]

@Anna CThey’re not prohibiting 10 year-olds from BEING en pointe, but performing en pointe. If they were to start pointework aged 9, they may well be proficient enough to perform en pointe aged 11. As discussed above though, the number of 9 year-olds for whom this would be safe is negligible and there is a big question about why it might be desirable for any. Pointework hurts, is hard and damages feet. Young children should just be allowed to enjoy DANCING and teachers should be ensuring they know how to use their feet and leg muscles optimally and with control so that when they do go en pointe, it is fruitful.

[Kate_N]

Totally agree, @MissEmilyPointe work should come as a “natural” extension of technical proficiency. Like a lot of things in ballet, it’s become a sort of talisman of age or a “right” after a certain length of time of study. Tail wagging the dog sort of thing ….

[taxi4ballet]

The RAD specifies that the minimum age to take their Inter Foundation exam is 11, and this exam includes a small amount of pointework; and the age to take Intermediate is 12, which has a corresponding increase in quantity and difficult of pointework.

 

So it is recognised by the RAD that there will be students with the ability (and physical maturity) to progress to pointework when they are 11. But I suspect that those youngsters would be the exception at most dance schools, rather than the norm.

 

[NJH]

Just now, taxi4ballet said:

The RAD specifies that the minimum age to take their Inter Foundation exam is 11, and this exam includes a small amount of pointework; and the age to take Intermediate is 12, which has a corresponding increase in quantity and difficult of pointework.

 

So it is recognised by the RAD that there will be students with the ability (and physical maturity) to progress to pointework when they are 11. But I suspect that those youngsters would be the exception at most dance schools, rather than the norm.

 

exactly 

also Inter foundation pointe centre is a  few  releves and echappes to pointe and some classical walks on flat, a number of the examples on you tube  have the entirely of the pointe excrcises in about 5 minutes  @sophie_rebecca could comment  as someone i know has done IF   ( as  my  decision to start  working for an exam was relatively further into my ballet journey, hence the reason i'm working towards  Inter  after  discussing it  throughly with  the teacher i see for  exam work) 

looking at the resources it's  a few  basic rises, relevens  echappes and  static courus at the barre  minutes at the barre and a  couple of minutes  in the centre to do the echappe + releve  exercise, it's not  dancing a variation  and turns en pointe aren't assessed until Adv Foundation...  
 

[Pas de Quatre]

4 hours ago, MissEmily said:

Pointework hurts, is hard and damages feet. 

Stating this as a fact is scary and not true.  If a pupil is properly trained and the shoes fitted correctly it might be challenging, but should not be painful and does not damage feet.  Some of today's professional dancers may have problems and awful looking feet simply because their training was a long time ago.  Everything has has improved greatly over recent years.

[Balletmummy18]

Found this topic interesting as brought back memories of my dd going on pointe. Her school wanted her on pointe at 9 years old … horrified I took her out of that school… only to be taken aside by her associate school the following year ( yr 6 )and asked why she wasn’t on pointe yet …her new local school also wanted her on pointe… I gave in .. so she was just 10 . ..& when she started WL the following year they had all already started pointe - this was 6 years ago…
 

[Beezie]

Millicent, wow, that may be a hard topic to address with a friend?  Good luck!  I can only imagine that they are already very excited about the prospects of pointe.

 

I agree with the other posters who mentioned that ‘early pointe’ is probably more about increasing the school’s enrollment than actually teaching pointe.  
 

Someone had also mentioned the adolescent growth spurt.  Yes!  Even if there were no dangers, does it really make sense to learn pointe prior to all these body changes?  It seems like there would be a lot of relearning to do!  Also seems to support the earlier point….that ‘early pointe’ may be superfluous to the dancer, even if not a detriment.  (Though if there is a question of health, why risk it?)

[Dance*is*life]

We start our students on pointe in Intermediate Foundation when the majority are 12.  As stated above there is very little pointework in the exam, but I do slowly introduce slightly more difficult work.  Our policy is to let all the students start pointe together - working slowly and carefully and staying on the barre for several months.  Usually they cope and continue, however there are always the exceptions, whose feet and ankles are not suitable.  When that happens I advise them to stop and they work on demi-pointe.  Sometimes working on pointe can help them.  I have a student new to me this year in IF -she just doesn't point her feet especially when she jumps -  a year and a half of Corona being to blame I suspect.  Anyway, she put on pointe shoes and wow!!!   She has the most beautiful feet!   Now I'm  working on getting her to use that point all the time!  Funnily enough last year's IF class, who are now on Grade 7, started pointe work on Zoom and they are really, really strong!   Because   they are now 13 going on 14, I am able to push the best ones and they are dancing way above the normal level.   I honestly don't see any advantage to starting earlier than 11 and certainly not as a blanket decision.  However, the vocational junior schools offer their students many more hours of dance training than the average child dancing after school a few days a week will get, so students at RBS etc may well be strong enough to start younger.   

[NJH]

7 hours ago, Balletmummy18 said:

Found this topic interesting as brought back memories of my dd going on pointe. Her school wanted her on pointe at 9 years old … horrified I took her out of that school… only to be taken aside by her associate school the following year ( yr 6 )and asked why she wasn’t on pointe yet …her new local school also wanted her on pointe… I gave in .. so she was just 10 . ..& when she started WL the following year they had all already started pointe - this was 6 years ago…
 

at the pointe  when the  too early  pointe  journey  had begun across  ballet as a whole 

also the there is a wrld of difference between IF or inter pointe and variations etc