Pups_mum

@Isabella the best thing to do is to talk to your DD's teacher and see what they suggest. As you say, there is always a degree of subjectivity, and some adjudicators are more knowledgeable on particular things than others. I am not anti festival at all - my DD did them for over a decade and got a lot out of the experience - but I think it is always wise not to take them too seriously. The adjudicator is seeing just a snapshot of your DD's dancing, and whilst the comments can be helpful, personally, I would generally take the advice of a trusted teacher who knows your DD well, over an adjudicator who has watched her for 90 seconds, especially when there is more than one approach to a particular dance or step. If you tried to follow every piece of advice you would go crazy! I remember one particular national dance that my DD did for a while in her later teens which became a bit of a joke because it seemed that every time she did it the adjudicator would directly contradict the one before. She was told it was too fast, then too slow. She was lifting her legs too far, then not far enough. It was a dance from a hot country, so she was putting too much energy into it, it should be more languid. No, it was from a country where the people are very exuberant so it needed to be livelier....you get the picture! 🤣 The amusing thing was, that as it was from her grandmother's home region she had done a lot of research and choreographed it herself and we knew it was technically very accurate. There was just one step in it that was not completely authentic and none of the adjudicators picked up on that. In fact if I recall rightly she had a few positive comments about that part! But basically, she just focused on doing it the way she knew was right, not changing it every time an adjudicator was critical. I'm guessing your DD is younger and her dances are choreographed by her teacher rather than self choreographed, so I would say that she should dance it how she has been taught, and if she is unclear, ask the teacher. As you say, seeing lots of videos all slightly different is likely to confuse rather than help.

Out of interest, how does the help (or lack of) in job seeking from vocational upper schools compare with that provided by more mainstream academic institutions? I don't recall there being much help from Universities in my day, though admittedly it is a very long time ago now and things may have changed. And I am not sure how much most sixth forms do for their leavers, beyond what is necessary for the UCAS process. My children's (generally excellent) academic school sends out a lot of careers information its true, but most of it is very generic and is along the lines of "these open days are available if you are interested." They provide some general pointers but its really down to the students and their parents to actually make anything happen. Its been the same with work experience. School provided a list of local employers who have taken students previously but expect the kids to arrange things for themselves, especially in 6th form, as it is meant to be as close to a "real world" experience as possible. So I guess what I am asking is are the vocational schools out of step with the rest of the academic world or not? How much is it reasonable to expect any institution to do on behalf of its students? I don't know really. Edited to say sorry, cross posted with rowan!

Walking the line between realism and crushing dreams is very hard indeed. If success is judged only as getting a contract with a classical company and remaining in regular employment as a ballet dancer, then yes, you would be mad to even try as the chances of attaining that are minimal. But I don't personally believe that to be the case. Lots of "failed" ballet dancers go on to have happy and fulfilling careers, some related to dance, others not. I think that dance enhances life, whether we do it or watch it. I believe that there are numerous transferable skills and it is likely that many of those who have trained seriously in ballet (or other art forms or sports come to that) are better at whatever they end up doing as a result of that training. Realism is good, but so is ambition. I believe that as long as someone is following their dream because they truly love it, not just because they want to "win" then it is not a waste, even if the end result is not what was first envisaged. It is sensible to know what the odds of a classical career are, and to have plans B, C, D and E of course. I am experiencing this whole thing again with my youngest child who wants to be a professional sportsman (middle one has his heart set on engineering.....thank goodness, as I am not sure I could cope with 3 journeysof this nature!). Much of the same applies. He probably won't make it big, but he loves it, it keeps him fit and off street corners/violent computer games and there are multiple transferable skills. He has plans B and C at least. I've learned a lot from DD's dance journey, but nothing that stops me making all the same kind of decisions again, we just have more insight. I was going to say"It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" except I don't think that not achieving the original goal is necessarily losing. I do write from the privileged position of being able to support my children's dreams without major financial hardship to date however. I might feel differently were that not the case. I do think more transparency about graduate destinations should be available to allow dancers and parents to take more informed decisions, especially if they are going to be financially compromised as a result. Were it possible, I think it would be more useful to know where dancers are 5 years after graduating, not just what their first job is.

I've just spotted a few pictures on social media of girls dancing in half term dance festivals and its left me feeling a bit nostalgic and philosophical. I saw some very mature looking young ladies dancing in E and F sections and then saw the names and thought "Huh...how did that happen? They were babies last time I looked?" Then I realised that some of the youngest dancers weren't even born when my DD last danced on that stage. But it feels like 5 minutes since I was spending every half term getting costumes ready, or worrying about exams and auditions. It struck me, that both we as parents, and our young people, spend an awful lot of time worrying about where we are going, what the next step will be and where it will end. Sometimes we spend so much time thinking about where we are going, that we are in danger of not seeing where we are at the moment - and that may be a very beautiful place. So whatever stage your little, and not so little, dancers are at right now be sure to savour it, and enjoy it as an experience in its own right, not just as a route to something else, because in a blink of an eye it will be over. If you are old enough to remember Take That....soon this will all be someone else's dream.

Have you looked at London Studio Centre? Though again, be aware that the loan may not cover the full fees. Its a few years since I looked, but it was certainly the case then that there was a significant top up needed.

Sorry to hear about this Mammabear. It must be quite a shock to the system. I suspect the fact that she still wants to do the festival and to attend SAs is a sign that she doesn't truly want to give up dancing. I would be inclined to give her a bit of time and space to think things through herself, as in my experience, the more you try to persuade a teenager to do something the harder they tend to push back. As others have said, it may be a spur of the moment thing but she currently doesn't want to back down and lose face, or it may be that she genuinely doesn't want to go to vocational school at this time. That doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't want to dance any more though. Year 11 is a super stressful time and it may be that everything is just getting on top of her a bit. In your shoes I would probably try to just enjoy this week for what it is and don't mention the future at all. Then if she doesn't bring it up again in a week or two, I would casually ask if she is still of the same mind and if so, what she wants to do instead. That question is quite good at focusing the mind in my experience. Getting another trusted adult to talk to her may also help, though I wouldn't do that right away or she is likely to feel ganged up on. Whatever happens, I hope your DD makes a decision that she genuinely believes is right for her, not based on other people's opinions.

All the best to you and your DD Pictures. I remember your posts back from when you were debating whether she should audition for a year 7 place and it has been lovely to read of her success since then. I hope she continues to go from strength to strength.

I don't want to spread alarm and despondency but I thought of this thread last night when coincidentally an online friend told me that their child (not a dancer) had been very sick from cellulitis of the foot. It arose from a blister which they had ignored due to training for a major competition. They are on the mend now, but their sports season has come to a premature end and they didn't make it to the big comp. Obviously that's rare, but I think it makes the point that whilst blisters are generally no more than a minor problem for most people, they can turn nasty - especially if kept inside sweaty boots or shoes for long periods of hard training. Given the temptation that many young dancers face to push on through injuries I thought it was worth sharing as a (suitably anonymised) cautionary tale. Had this young person sought help sooner, and taken a short time out, the damage would almost certainly have been far less. Take your blisters seriously!

No, no study leave here either. They have to be in school every day until May half term, and then there are still "optional but highly recommended" lessons most days up until the exams were over. My O levels are so long ago now that I cant really remember what happened, but I have a feeling that the exams didn't start until after May half term and that we had normal lessons til then, and then I only had to go in on exam days after the holidays. I think the exams were a bit longer, yes, and they went on longer in the year so there wasn't such a big gap between finishing O leveks and starting 6th form as there is now. But I don't think there were intense weeks with exams morning and afternoon virtually every day like my son had last year. I think I recall quite big gaps between exams, which made it easier to plan revision. I think overall it was less pressured in my day.

For what its worth, my children attend/have attended what is generally considered a high performing state school with plenty of leavers going on to Oxbridge and RG universities and the standard is 9 GCSEs and in 6th form 3 A Levels plus an EPQ, or occasionally 4 A levels, the fourth A level almost always being Further Maths for a pupil planning to take a maths degree at a "good" university. 3 separate sciences is the norm at GCSE here and each is given equal time and a full timetable share. Having seen the volume of work required for the new GCSE syllabi I would say it would be insane to try to teach the 3 individual sciences within a "double science" timetable slot, and that taking 9 subjects, or possibly 10 for the most academically able is more than enough. I think some parents, and maybe even some teachers, haven't yet grasped the enormous changes that have occurred in public exams over the last few years, from SATS upwards. Less than a decade ago most GCSEs were modular and many schools were entering their pupils for 12,13 or even more subjects, so of that is what you have been used to, then "only" 9 GCSEs may sound concerning, but nowadays, getting 9 decent grades across a range of subjects at GCSE is an achievement for any child, never mind one who is at a vocational school or dancing seriously at a local dance school with a view to full time training. There are only so many hours in the day and some of that must be spent on rest and relaxation. Personally, I would prioritise quality over quantity - better 8 good grades than 11 mediocre - and a physically and mentally healthy child over everything .

It's nearly 15 years since my DD auditioned for JAs and we were told back then that overall about 10% were accepted, so it sounds like that is probably a fairly consustent figure. I think it is a very useful thing to know actually, as it puts things into context for parents, and even quite young children can grasp that out of every 10 in the audition one will gain a place and nine won't. I think it is important for those who are disappointed to realise that they are not alone, but are in fact in the very large majority. That applies to parents too - especially on here, as even though the majority of posters here are lovely, supportive people, you do get a bit of a skewed impression around audition time. Not surprisingly, people are keener to post their positive news and it sometimes feels that everyone is getting a yes except your child. It isn't true of course and knowing the real figures is, in my opinion, quite helpful and facilitates expectation management.

It would be interesting to know how dancers who have started out in the "no pain no gain" competition type schools get on if they go to vocational schools, and how they come to view their early training with time. Someone who had been through that experience could be a valuable influence if they have had to "unlearn" early habits and have come to realise the dangers. (I don't know anyone though, sorry.)

I've signed and shared tge petition on my Facebook.

I think you are right Peanut, though I think it would be very difficult to regulate an industry so diverse as dance. You also cannot entirely out regulate stupidity. As I have mentioned (endlessly, I know...) I have a son who plays 2 sports at a reasonably competent level. The contrast between what I see in those highly regulated and controlled environments and the dance world is stark. BUT, there are still parents who think they know best and seek further training outside of the national body's programme, or travel to multiple different venues to make the over training less obvious. And I am sure there are coaches who don't follow the rules, though fortunately we haven't encountered any ourselves. Regulation certainly doesn't totally prevent children being pushed too hard or training inappropriately, but I believe it does help. It also makes the world a lot easier for parents to navigate as it is relatively easy to access information which means you can sense check what you are being told. So when the parent stood next to me an event says "Oh, my little Jimmy is doing eleventy billion hours a week training and we are travelling to Australia to compete next weekend, your son needs to do the same if he wants to progress" it is pretty easy to let that wash over me, because club and regional coaches are all telling me otherwise, and I can look at resources from the national body too. In dance we seem to be reliant on finding a good teacher that we can trust, but everyone seems to be singing a different tune. If you are new to it all, finding the right teacher is hard, and often it comes down to luck. I think the big hurdle in regulating dance compared with sport is the business model. Most sports are run by volunteers at grassroots level, with relatively few people actually earning their living from coaching, mainly at higher levels. Plus there is often an vein of national funding, be that lottery funding, money direct from the government, sponsorship or charitable funding, running through sports. This model lends itself to a national regulatory body and framework. Dance teachers on the other hand are largely self employed or working in small businesses and are pretty much all trying to make a living. External funding, as we all know, is extremely limited and tends not to reach grassroots level. So you have an activity that carries much the same risks as competitive sports but without the same infrastructure, and probably also with a much smaller evidence base as to what actually the right way to train is. The government has invested heavily in elite sports programmes in order to win Olympic medals etc. The knowledge gained at that level trickles down and benefits children like my son. There doesn't seem to be a comparable thing in dance, but surely it is needed? I'm not saying that I think regulation is a bad thing - I absolutely don't - but I think there are big and difficult reasons why it hasn't happened already and why it would not be easy to implement. I do think that better cooperation between the various examining bodies, the vocational schools and organisations like CDET would be a great start though.

That's dreadful drdance. Though if it is any consolation, I would say that that kind of reaction shows that they know you are right. In my experience, people who are secure in their own knowledge and expertise seldom resort to those kind of tactics to "defend themselves". Keep fighting the good fight. Things will change eventually.

Indeed Glissade. Are audiences given what they like, or do they have to like what they are given? 🤔

We probably need to vote with our credit cards on matters like this. Wherever possible, shop with manufacturers and retailers who *don't* use advertising techniques that are potentially detrimental to young dancers, and complain to those who do. I don't really know anything about advertising standards, but is there a case for complaining about photoshopped pictures as being misleading or something? I suppose this is a bit like the anti smoking campaigns. Legislation is obviously effective, but social acceptance is also key. It used to be normal to smoke, "cool" in fact, but now it is seen as antisocial in many circles. In the same way, we need young dancers to stop seeing these dangerous stretches as cool, and over training as a badge of honour and replace with the idea that they are stupid things to do. Advertisers know what they are doing. We need to follow their example and use "influencers" from within the target population and the celebrities they look up to. I am nowhere near media savvy enough to know how you would actually go about that, but I suspect it will be a more effective method than trying to educate parents.

It's very difficult as our young people are exposed to so many negative influences these days. I think it starts with the very perception of dance. Whilst I will argue to my dying day that dance is an artform not a sport, it does have a lot of commonality with sport, not least the physical risks posed, especially by poor coaching/ teaching. But somehow this is not recognised widely. I know people who would never dream of sending their child to, say, an unqualified swimming coach, but are perfectly happy with the village hall dance class run by an 18 year old with no qualifications and quite possibly no DBS, first aid training or insurance. Why? Well, it's "only dance". It seems to be quite a deeply ingrained attitude. I have had no difficulty getting support from our local school for my sporty son's pursuits, or my musical son's activities, but when my DD was at the same school the attitudes ranged from disinterest to scathing criticism. I don't know what the answer to that is, but I do think it is the fundamental problem. You are somewhat "preaching to the choir" here, as most of the parents and teachers on this forum already take dance seriously, understand the risks as well as the benefits and want to improve things. But for every one of us, there are dozens of "drop and run" parents, and, in my opinion, it is the widespread lack of understanding and apathy that allows unsafe practice to flourish. Then at the other end of the scale there is the almost god like power wielded by those in the elite institutions that it is so hard for anyone to challenge. I would like to see more transparency and accountability throughout the industry, and I do think that a national governing body would help. But I can't imagine that happening any time soon. The use of social media has to be key. So much bad stuff is out there, but I think it can only be countered by using the same media to fight back. Atracting high profile people in the industry promote to safe practice via their social media may be beneficial. Coukd the current trend for "ambassadors" be utilised, both by lobbying commercial companies to only use ambassadors who demonstrate safe practice and to drop those posting unsafe pictures etc, or by setting up a specific scheme? TV companies don't help - is there any way of challenging them over the way they portray dance? But ultimately change has to come from more and more parents, teachers and dancers standing up and saying "this isn't ok". Other institutions have changed, so surely dance can to?

Good point @Anna C I suspect there are similar problems in any field where there are more children with talent and a desire to participate than there are places. But in my experience at least, sport is less bad, partly because of the influence of national governing bodies and partly because it is easier to be objective. For example, if there are standard qualifying times which must be reached to progress to the next stage it is easier to pick objectively. Also, sport has embraced science more, so rather than that rather abstract concept of "potential" that we face in the dance world, young people seeking to participate in higher levels of sport can be tested more objectively. Obviously that is not infallible - for example Mark Cavendish who, whatever people feel about his personality, is one of the greatest cyclists of all time, performs very badly in the lab, and really shouldn't have been capable of his achievements. But I think its better than the vague "we know it when we see it" or really " we know what we are looking for but we aren't going to tell you" attitude that seems to prevail in dance. I know its harder when artistry comes in to it, but I do think more transparency would help everyone. I suspect the sports I am involved in are at the higher end when it comes to Child Protection and appropriate training for youth competitors ( driven to some degree by previous scandals) but I don't delude myself that they are perfect. There is however a proper structure. If I saw something I felt was wrong I would know what to do about it, and there are easily accessible and clear standards and codes of conduct for all involved. Dance poses many of the same risks to our young people as does competitive sport, but it lacks the structure and accountability. Sorry, for derailing the thread....I will go now and leave space for those whose children are auditioning this year. I wish everyone all the best and I hope that all the young dancers have good experiences. But those that don't should be able to speak up.

I absolutely agree with you @Yrosered If people we deal with in everyday life behaved like this would we be so accepting? If a doctor didn't bother listening would people say "Well have you any idea how many patients she has seen this week, and you really aren't that sick are you?" Or if a regular school teacher gave a class with his eyes shut would it be "Gosh, he must get sick of having to spend every day with kids, you should be grateful be bothers to turn up at all?" If a checkout operator was rude we would probably complain. If you work in a public facing job there is a standard that your clients can reasonably expect, no matter how tired, bored, hot, cold etc you are. How can we hold shop assistants to a higher standard of behaviour than we do people entrusted with the care of children and young people, simply because they represent an elite institution? A poster hit the nail on the head in another thread recently, talking about the "humble gratitude" that parents and children are expected to exhibit in these circumstances. Yes, we all know that the performing arts world is tough, but these are children and their parents have paid a sum of money which for some will be a significant amount, for this experience. The should be able to expect politeness as a minimum. Some sectors of dance education are stuck in a mindset that most of the rest of the educational world abandoned decades ago, and it really does need to change.

Gosh Sunrise, I am not surprised your DD was upset. I do some sports coaching and I was taught very early on in my coach training that a child's (or indeed an adult's) confidence, and thus performance, can be badly affected if they feel the coach values them less than other participants. Using the names of only some of the children creates a division and will boost the confidence of some whilst damaging the self belief of others, even if that was not the intent. Obviously a teacher in an audition class cannot learn everyone's names, so they should use no-one's. Every dancer has a number on, which makes it easy to treat everyone the same. I know it is difficult to challenge behaviour in such circumstances but I really hope someone feels able to give some feedback. The teacher may be unaware of their own behaviour and how it affects the children, but if this kind of thing is taught on basic sports coaching courses I would really expect an expert teacher to know better. I hope it hasn't upset your DD too much and that she ends up in the school that is best for her.

I would just urge a little caution when making the assumption that you can always take up a more academic career later in life. I had always thought that until I started looking a little more carefully at things when my DD was making her decisions. Of course there is no reason in theory why a dancer cannot take up a totally different career path later, but there is potentially one big practical reason why it could be difficult - money. I had realised that if you have "used up" your student finance one one degree you wouldn't get a second lot for another degree, but until I started looking more carefully I didn't realise the same would apply after a level 6 diploma. When I thought about it, yes, it does make sense that of you have had a DaDA then you have had your share of the education money pot, but I had always assumed that if you self funded a Trinity Diploma you would be able to get student finance for an unrelated degree in the future. However, thanks to the wisdom of some experienced people here I learned that that isn't necessarily so. It seems crazy to me. If you are funded for your Diploma you can self fund a subsequent degree, but if you self fund the diploma there is no guarantee of funding for a later degree. That seems totally unfair to me, but apparently it is the case. This may or may not be relevant to you, and of course the funding arrangements for education in general could change totally before you get to that stage, but I think it is worth knowing about in advance.

Hi Mrsmac and welcome to the forum. I would see getting on the waiting list for the RBS summer school as a very positive thing. There are huge numbers of applicants from all around the world and the majority will receive a straight " no". There will be quite a lot on the waiting list it is true and it is always hard to say if a place will come up as I believe the way it works is that they replace "like for like". So if a 15 year old boy drops out they will look for another one, rather than offering a place to a 16 year old girl if you see what I mean? So to get a place you need someone the same sex and around the same age to decline. But they have obviously seen very positive things in your DD. Plenty of talented dancers apply every year that they are eligible and never make it as far as the waiting list. So whilst obviously it is disappointing to your DD that she didn't get offered a place, I think she can be reassured that she is very much along the right lines to have been put on the waiting list. My daughter is an adult now and I am a bit out of the loop regarding summer schools so I can't recommend anywhere specific. They all have their pros and cons really, but most of the well known schemes will provide a good experience. Obviously there are some exceptions, but I think that if a young dancer has a positive attitude and works hard then they will get something out of more or less any reputable summer school. As has already been mentioned, you might be better off looking in Scotland for the dates that you mention. In England, the majority of schools don't start their summer holidays until mid July so not many summer schools will be available until then. But the Scottish school holidays start towards the end of June, so the summer schools start earlier. As Valentina has already mentioned there are lots of beautiful places in Scotland so if you combine with a family holiday you will find plenty to do. That said, Yorkshire is also beautiful and full of interesting tourist attractions. Just don't expect the weather anywhere in the UK to be as fabulous as Cyprus in July! And particularly if you opt to go to Scotland be sure to pack insect repellent. You won't catch anything nasty from Scottish midgies but they can give you horrid itchy bites. I hope you find somewhere suitable and enjoy your stay in the UK. Tell your DD not too worry too much. There will almost certainly be other dancers doing their first summer school wherever she goes, most will have at least some international students and everyone speaks the wonderful international language that is ballet.

It's lovely to hear how much your daughter is enjoying her dancing and that that you are now able to send her to regular classes. You are obviously a very loving mum who wants the very best for her daughter. 10 is definitely not to late - in fact there are some very well known dancers who were late starters - but there are undeniable challenges to starting late. She will be technically behind her peers, and whilst the fact that she has been teaching herself does demonstrate that she has real drive and passion for dance, which is a very positive thing, there is a very real possibility that she has taught herself some things which are not quite right and need to be unlearned. She sounds to be doing several different styles of dance, some of which have rather different techniques. A 10 year old who has been dancing since they were 3 or 4 and has a good grasp of basic technique might manage a range of different genres quite comfortably, but given that your daughter has only been having lessons for 9 months or so, I think that number and range of classes sounds quite a lot. I don't want to sound too negative, or to dampen her (and your) enthusiasm, but I do wonder if there is a risk of her trying to run before she can walk? It is natural to want to do a lot when she has had to wait for the opportunity, but sometimes less is more. I would second Valentina's suggestion that you consider cutting back on some of the other classes and focus on ballet to start with. Whatever shape her dancing life eventually takes, it needs solid foundations. Ballet is that foundation, providing a platform for most other dance genres. A building based on shaky foundations may be ok til it reaches a certain height but then it can be built no further or it will fall - dancing is much the same. Time spent on the fundamentals of ballet is never wasted and will enable her to progress into a stronger dancer in due course. Just be a little wary of doing too much too soon.

For what its worth I would call the Wear Moi Galate a camisole leotard. And a very nice one at that. Remember that the panel are looking at YOU, not your leotard. Yes, ok, if they have asked for black camisole you would be daft to go wearing a neon pink tank leotard, but little details like a tiny flower or the width of your straps are not worth worrying about. Wear the one that you are most comfortable in and you feel you will perform best in. Goos luck, and enjoy the experience.