Pups_mum

It's a long time ago now ( and the old vocational syllabus so things may be different) but my DD did both the vocational and graded exams alongside each other and found that they complemented each other very well. If I recall rightly, there wasn't really anything new to her technically speaking in grades 6-8 but they were a lot more "dancey" than the old vocational syllabus if that makes sense, so she enjoyed the contrast.

Thanks so much! My prize will be going to my DD who has recently opened her own school (proud ballet mum moment🙂) so they will be a welcome addition to the studio wall. Lovely end to the year. Many thanks and a very happy Christmas to all our mods.

This is very true. And I think it is something that can be hard for us as parents to admit, even to ourselves. *Of course* it is mainly about our DCs, how they feel and are affected but we are people who have put a lot into the journey too. We have made sacrifices of many different kinds. We had hopes and dreams. We get hurt and disappointed too, before you even get to the guilt thing! And that's ok. We are allowed to be sad for ourselves as well as our DCs. I've been relatively lucky compared to many here. My DD is happy and content with what she is doing now. She's learned a lot from her experiences and has embarked on a teaching career with very firm ideas on how she wants things to be. But there's still a lot I regret and if I could wind the clock back I'd make lots of different decisions. However, it is always worth remembering that whilst different choices would have led to different experiences, there is no guarantee that they would have been better. I could have prevented DD from having some very unpleasant experiences if I had made some different decisions (or encouraged her to do so) but the alternatives would almost certainly have had other negatives. We tend to overlook that possibility when we reflect on things that have happened. It's human nature to assume that if, so to speak, you picked path A and it took you to the witches cottage, path B must have been the one that goes straight to the crock of gold. Real life is of course not like that, and all paths will have their ups and downs, rewards, disappointments, dangers and opportunities. When we are grieving we tend to only see the negatives of our chosen path and the presumed positives of the alternatives. That's ok, and completely normal, but in my experience, time does help. Allow yourself time to do that grieving OP, and things will get better in time as your DD goes on to other great things.

I don't know anything about the dreampointes sorry but my DD wore Gaynors for many years and I can confirm that her experience was as you expect - it was the rest of the shoe that gave way first, she never had any problem with the shanks. She did find that as they were wearing out the shoes would stretch generally and so weren't supportive enough, even though the shanks were still fine. I'm no materials scientist but I'd be very surprised if a warm room could cause the shanks to soften, or you'd think it might happen on stage wouldn't you - I bet it gets pretty hot under the lights?? I wonder if it's another part of the shoe that's softening?

Dont forget @Angela Essexthat Intermediate is the level that the RAD require dancers to have passed to be eligible for teacher training - it isn't easy stuff! I'd think that if you can even follow what is going on in a class like that after such a short time you should be proud of yourself. The other ladies have probably got a lot more experience, and even if they've returned fairly recently,if they danced as children there will be basics embedded in their brains and muscle memory that you unfortunately don't yet. I went to adult classes for a while when my DD was young and it frustrated me terribly that things she could do easily as an 8 year old were way beyond me. But then she'd remind me that she had 6 years of lessons behind her by then and had learned the concept of turnout not that long after she had mastered walking. I on the other hand...hadn't! I'd agree with the others that a more basic class would benefit you if at all possible, but you also need to cut yourself a bit of slack. You're giving it a go, no doubt getting fitter, and enjoying yourself. That's all good. Ballet is hard. One of the most wonderful things is the way a good dancer can make it all look so effortĺess, but it never is. A lot of repetitive, not very exciting practice needs to be done before you really get anywhere- a bit like all the hours of scales a pianist has to do I suppose. Be kind to yourself and don't expect too much too soon.

Yes, I think it is very important to remember that very few of us do end up following paths that were our dreams when we were 10 or 11 and that is not actually a bad thing! If you have a talented child, in any sphere, not just dance, there is soon an assumption that they will want to make that interest their career. And who wouldn't love to make their much loved hobby into their lifelong career when they are a typical primary school child? The difference of course is that there are not many other pursuits that expect a family to make quite the same sacrifices as ballet at such a young age. Not many other activities where children are asked to nail their colours to the mast and move away from their family into a boarding environment and give up quite so much of "normal" childhood for their dream at this age. But you don't have to. There are indeed many roads to Rome and a lot more options open up at 16 and even 18. A classical career is such a small part of the dance world, and not the only dream worth chasing - it's just the dream that most young dancers have because it is what they know about, in the same way that sporty kids dream of Olympic gold and the science mad ones long to be astronauts on the ISS. As they grow up, most see other options and new aspirations develop. Most people don't see the fact that they aren't fulfilling their primary school dreams now that they are adults as a failure - we need to make sure that young dancers don't either. Success and happiness come in many, many different ways.

That's why I said "it's probably impossible..."

Some very wise words here. I confess I had assumed that your move to London was a done deal and that you were looking for a ballet school as a secondary thing, but re reading the thread I can see that's not the case and would urge caution. The RBS, and other British vocational schools do indeed have international students, particularly in the Upper Schools, but as I understand it, the vast majority of them board whilst their families remain at home. I'm sure schools can help obtain visas for their students, but entire families are a different matter. I'm not saying it us impossible for you to move to the UK, but I doubt it will be straightforward and it almost certainly won't be quick. Having an EU passport won't help now that Britain is not in the EU, and even the top schools don't have enough influence that they can circumvent immigration law! You obviously have a talented child and are getting a lot of positive feedback which us lovely, but it is easy to get swept along on a wave of enthusiasm and overlook the negatives. She is still so young (and I assume, pre pubertal) - a lot can change in the next few years so I would think very carefully about moving your whole family on the back of her dreams. I can understand the appeal of Europe when it comes to ballet, but as others have said, it will be very, very different to what you and she are used to and it may not suit you. Enjoy your trip for the audition, but ask lots of questions and find out as much as you can about the lifestyle change if would be, as well as the practicalities of moving here. Don't set your heart on it at this stage though.

I've often thought it would be very useful if schools had to publish what their graduates are actually doing later, say 5 years after leaving. It's probably impossible, but it would, I think, help people make decisions, or at least go into things with their eyes wide open. The (very sound) advice to look at graduate destinations is actually hard to do, unless you have plenty of personal contacts. We get to see the straight from graduation destinations many of which may indeed be schemes of dubious provenance, and then a few carefully selected success stories. With time and experience you start to pick up on wording, and maybe get a bit cynical I suppose, but things are often phrased in a potentially misleading way. "Has performed in..." or " worked with" could mean almost anything! How long for? In what capacity? Was there any actual exchange of money, (and if so, in which direction)? Often what is not said is as revealing as what is. Not actual lies, but certainly incomplete data. Unfortunately by the time we get wise to this kind of thing we tend to be a long way down the path. There needs to be more transparency so that the parents of young dancers see reality early in the process. You know, I think plenty would still give it a try anyway, but at if there were more hard facts to base decisions on and people were making better informed choices the process may be less damaging. There does seem to be a proliferation of schemes from associates through to graduate schemes in recent years that promise great things but don't deliver. The concept of all these things is good, and the originals were doubtless excellent - some of course still are - but at the other end of the scale young people and their parents are having their their dreams exploited.

The only difference I can think leotard choice really makes is to comfort and confidence. If a dancer is happy with how they look, and not fiddling with uncomfy straps etc then they are likely to show themselves at their best. I think most of the JAs/JA parents I've known have disliked the leotard to be honest and would probably prefer something else. Also if I've understood correctly, your DD isn't a JA any more? So she's presumably grown since she was one, and the fit might not be great? Personally, I'd opt for a nice, well fitting camidole leotard that she likes. There's also the small chance that someone on the panel might not like her wearing the uniform when technically she isn't currently a JA. But I would imagine that most panels are professional and experienced enough to see beyond a child who is wearing something less than ideal - especially at the age where it is more than likely the parents choice anyway.

I don't have much to add @Blakeybut just wanted to say how sorry I am to hear of your son and husband's diagnosis and I hope the treatment goes well. It must be a very stressful time. Good luck with your planned move. It sounds like it will be a big change for you all, wherever you end up living. Just bear in mind, that if you don't find yhe perfect place for your daughter immediately, it isn't the end of the world. It is easy to feel that there is only one "right" way to go about things, especially when you've had professional advice, but if you hang around this forum for any length of time you will see that "success" takes many different forms, and can be achieved in many different ways. Also if you look ay the biographies of the dancers in any company you will see that they are very diverse, with lots of different training routes. You have a lot on your plate at the moment. Keep an open mind and remember that what happens at age 11 definitely doesn't define the whole future. Best of luck with everything.

Reviving this lovely thread again, though I'm not sure if my daughter is a DD or a non dancing child now really! But either way, I'm very proud to say that she's now an RAD registered teacher. When I first posted on this forum's predecessor she was probably about 10 and I think I was looking for info on EYB auditions. Feels like yesterday, yet simultaneously, a lifetime ago. Lots of ups and downs, plenty I'd change given the time again, but I'm proud of the creative, bright and spectacularly resilient young adult she now is. Hope all the other fabulous young people mentioned over the years on this thread are thriving despite the current situation.

This is an extremely good point and one well worth thinking about. I am, however, of the opinion that 7 weeks is plenty long enough for at least some people to be quite certain that they've made a mistake. Universities seem to more or less expect a certain percentage of students to want to change courses quite early, even on sought after vocational courses like medicine and veterinary medicine, where the students may well have dreamed of, and worked hard towards a particular course for many years. I'm sure lots of people have attained dream jobs in adulthood and left fairly quickly after discovering that reality didn't match the dream. If that can happen to mature adults, how much more likely is it in young children who don't yet have the life experience or cognitive development to fully weigh things up? At 10/11 when these decisions are being made, the dream is very much that, and I'd suspect that most of the time feelings about what's actually happening are more "real" than feelings about the dream, if that makes sense ? There is no doubt that people, particularly children are very adaptable, but the more people share their stories on this topic, the more it sounds to me as though a lot of youngsters learn to tolerate the situation rather than to really enjoy it, and survival becomes the name of the game. The influences on different people will vary and are doubtless very complex, but the longer I'm around here, the more often I hear that DCs had a hard time but they got used to it. Is that good enough?? Are we too accepting of that as "normal"?

It's very interesting. I have often mused on the differences between my DD's dance journey and her brother's sporting pursuits. I could write pages on the subject (probably previously have in fact) but I won't bore you all! I think there are intrinsic differences between ballet and sport that mean that exactly the same models would never work equally well for both, but I do think there is a lot to be learned, particularly from sports science and from the way a number of sports structure their youth programmes, both their talent development pathways and more recreational programmes. I also think that the dance world would do well to look at the skeletons that have been found in a number of sporting cupboards and learn from what's happened there. No system is perfect, but I do think that sports, at least the ones we're involved with, have modernised rather more successfully than dance so far and there is quite a lot that could transfer well.

I'm so sorry to hear this. It must be very difficult. I've no personal experience, but I have heard lots of people say that their children get unsettled at boarding school after holidays. Come to think of it, I remember being pretty miserable in my second term of University and I had had a whale of a time in the first term and was of course a lot older. I think there's a combination of the novelty and excitement of the beginning wearing off and the enjoyment of a holiday at home, which of course tends to be something of an idealised version of home. So it may just be a blip. But he is only eleven, and living away from home is a huge change which just isn't right for some children. The difficulty is telling the difference of course and I'm not sure there is an infallible way of doing that. Obviously you don't want your DS to be unhappy but nor do you want him to rush into a decision which he later regrets. I think the key thing is to listen to him and make sure he knows that you're taking his feelings seriously, but if you are confident he isn't at risk of harm, I think I'd be inclined to play for a bit of time. Talk to the school - he wont be the first or last to experience this and I would expect them to be able to offer support and advice. (If they don't, that maybe helps your decision too, in a different way!) Also use the time to look at alternatives. He is going to have to be educated somewhere if he comes home, be it a state school, independent school or at home, so you all need to consider your options. It's a tough situation for one so young, but your DS needs to think about where he does want to be, not just where he doesn't want to be, and as a PP mentioned, unfortunately coming hime and slotting back into the old routine may not be possible. So I think deferring the decision til you have some more options on the table would be good if possible. Being told that leaving is a real option and having some sense of control over the situation may alter how your DS feels and bring some clarity to the situation. It's also worth remembering that there are many routes to Rome. After the excitement of gaining a place it must be scary to walk away, for fear of burning bridges, and there will be some difficulties in returning home , dealing with people's questions etc I'm sure. But if this forum shows anything, it us that "success" can come in many, many different forms and that there are many ways to achieve it. Leaving now doesn't preclude reapplying in the future or trying a different route. If he does still want a dance career, stepping off the roller coaster right now doesn't have to be the career ending decision some people speak of it as. And of course there is nothing wrong with recognising that a dance career is not what you really want. It can still be a fabulous hobby alongside other things and that's absolutely fine. So I'd try to create some breathing space if you feel it's safe to do so. (Obviously if you have any safety concerns it's different.) But listen to your gut feelings. It is very easy to get caught up in other people's expectations as a ballet parent but try shut that all out and centre your child and your family. I'm sure you will make the right decisions between you.

It depends on the course Mrs Krabz. There are a few courses that are degree courses - Central and Rambert spring to mind and in those cases, yes, your DC would be entitled to student finance and it is like going to University. However, just be a bit careful as degrees studied at private institutions eg London Studio Centre don't attract the full loan for fees and the fees may also be higher than regular University courses. It's quite a number of years since I was looking, but at the time the maximum loan available was £6k and the fees were something like £10k - you have to find the difference yourself. Also, be aware that if your DC uses their student finance up on a degree they start at 16, apart from in specific circumstances such as some healthcare degrees, they won't be eligible for funding for another degree at the same level if they later change direction. However, most courses are the Trinity Dioloma, which despite being a level 6 qualification is not a degree and therefore not eligible for student finance. As Dancers Dad mentioned earlier, you may be eligible to apply for a DADA but these are competitive and the number available at different schools and colleges varies. They are also means tested, and there is an upper earnings limit above which you are ineligible so make sure you read all the details. Most institutions do have some bursaries and scholarships of their own, but this varies a lot from place to place and are often quite limited. It's an expensive business I'm afraid. Sorry, I know I'm making it sound bleak, but it's not my intention! It is very wise of you to think through the finances first though. I ruled out some courses as financially out of reach even of DD was lucky enough to get a place, and she didn't even go to open days to places I knew we couldn't afford. Different people have different views of course, but my personal opinion, which fortunately DD agreed with, is that there was no point in auditioning for some places as we'd have to turn them down if successful anyway, which would be upsetting - or, possibly worse, we might have let pur hearts rule our heads and made some imprudent financial decisions if a "dream place" had become available.I don't think thereone right approach, but forewarned is definitely forearmed so look very carefully at all your options. Good luck!

Sorry, I also read age 8 to 11, not year 8 to 11, which obviously changes things a bit. That said there are Disney sings that would still be appropriate. My DD did a lyrical solo to "I'll Try" from Return to Neverland when she was in her early teens which seemed quite appropriate as it's kind of about growing up. I've not seen the new Mulan movue - ids there anything nice in that. On the musical front,the big thing at the moment seems to be Everyone's Talking About Jamie but I've not seen it so don't know what the songs or like and I guess the theme might be a bit controversial for some, but it's certainly very popular at the moment.

I'm a bit out of touch with what kids are into now, but my DD is a dance teacher and I know she uses songs from popular films and musicals quite a lot as she's concerned that the lyrics of lots of pop songs are unsuitable. Some of the Disney films have lovely soundtracks which are age appropriate.

I agree @cotes du rhone ! I think the schools actually shoot themselves in the foot by not promoting what their pupils actually achieve. At present it seems like all students and parents are, initially at least, allowed to believe that they're going to be professional dancers. The relatively few who achieve that are feted by the schools and everyone else slips away quietly. It's almost like the schools consider that they themselves are failures if they don't produce 100% professional ballet dancers, and that people won't send their children there if they are honest about the outcomes. But it's just the way things are - the world doesn't need that many ballet dancers and job opportunities are scarce. Personally I would have a lot of respect for any school which gave realistic information about the probability of a classical career and which was able to "sell" to me the benefits of an education there inspite of that. I would like to hear that attendance at School X optimises the slim chances of a classical career but that the school also produces happy, well rounded graduates who are successful in a wide range of other careers, and every student is equally valued. Dance has so many transferable skills and is worthwhile in it's own right, not just as a paid career. I think that this tendency to define success only as a classical performing career actually devalues a dance education and indeed dance itself, which is terriblysad really.

I think it's very difficult Glowlight. This is always this risk when demand massively outstrips supply. Sports, exclusive academic schools, prestigous University courses,top jobs.....anywhere it could be said that "you're lucky to be here " or that " we could replace you tomorrow " there is great pressure not to speak up about anything negative. A of fear of losing something you've worked hard for and guilt at seeming to lack gratitude make a very potent combination that often ensures silence from both students and parents. There isn't an easy answer. Those who have been brave enough to speak out are deserving of all our support and I think the fact that more people are doing so is a very big step in the right direction. Something that I think the whole of the dance world needs is more honesty and transparency. It is very difficult as nobody wants to stamp on a child's dream but more information about the reality of the profession is needed, and not just about the chances of getting into a vocational school, but what happens when you get out. What is the reality of grad destinations? How many of the apprenticeships and pre professional years with companies actually result in paid contracts? "Past students have performed with......." often sounds impressive but what does it really mean? How many past pupils, for how long and it what capacity. What is the outcome for the majority, not just the top few students in each year? I'd like to see more transparency around physical requirements. I know it is an incredibly sensitive issue but the reality is that, like some sports and other pursuits, there are specific physical requirements and sometimes "no" does mean ""no, rather than "not yet" .Often people just want to be kind, but I wish I had had more objective information when my DD was young. On the other hand, I think another thing we parents can do is to share positive messages about our children's lives post dance school. There is a tendency to view a career with a classical company as the only successful outcome and if that doesn't happen we often slink away, feeling slightly embarrassed, ashamed even, because news of our DCs doesn't seem "worthy". It is though, and other parents need to hear it so they can make properly informed decisions. It also potentially helps empower students. We need our young peopke to know that there is more than one valid outcome, and that it isn't only the future principal dancers who matter and are worthy of decent treatment. My DD is a teacher now by the way. She's completed her RAD teacher training, has recently opened her own school and loves working with young childre. I am very, very proud of her. There are some things I would do differently if I had my time again, but overall positives outweigh the negatives and I don't see this as failure. We need to make sure that young dancers know that they all matter and are not powerless - then those who may wish to control or abuse them will not have the power to do so.

I'm sorry to hear that you and your child have had such a difficult start to Year 7 NotadanceMa. My dancing child didn't go to a lower school so I have no direct experience but I think the best piece of advice I have ever read on the topic wason this forum and it is simply that we should not accept from a vocational school anything that we would not tolerate in a regular academic school. Now that can be easier said than done for a whole host of reasons, but I think it is very sound advice. It is true that the school cannot divulge information about the perpetrators to you, but what they can and should do is tell you what they are doing for your child. One of my (non dancing) children was bullied in year 7 and I had multiple conversations with school staff on the subject. Never once was the bully mentioned but I was told things like "X has been allocated a student mentor" "X may spend breaks in the Student Support Centre and can bring a friend for company if they wish" and "We are putting a member of staff on the bus to monitor behaviour and ensure X feels safe to and from school". I had to take it on trust that appropriate measures were taken for the other child involved but that wasn't my business or my concern really, but the support being provided for my child most definitely was. "It's sorted" isn't an acceptable answer in my opinion. You can't be there for your child so you need reassurance that the school is providing necessary care. I would try to have a video call or at least a phone call with the member of staff responsible for pastoral care if I were you. I hope things get resolved quickly - nothing is more important than your chiid's well being.

I think this is a really important point. Those who appear unscathed are, in a way, perhaps the most damaged, as they have accepted toxic behaviour as normal, and may well go on to perpetuate it. I've no dance experience, but I can see parallels with my experiences as a medical student in the 80s - obviously not as bad as we were at least adults and could escape as not boarders, but there were definite similarities. Ritual humiliation was a recognised teaching method, sexism and racism commonplace and nobody dared speak up because the potential damage to career progression was significant. And you could see young doctors behaving just like their seniors. Of course they did - they knew no different and as far as they were concerned such methods were "necessary" to prepare us for the profession. Plus in any hierarchy it's unfortunately human nature that people who are being treated badly from above will vent their frustration on those below them once they get the chance. The good news is that it has changed. I'm sure there's still room for improvement but generally speaking students dont get treated in the way that we did. Fear and humiliation aren't widely seen as effective teaching techniques any more. I'm not sure exactly how it happened but I guess people started to stand up and say "this isn't ok", and tutors actually started to be taught to teach. "Because it's always been like this" ceased to be acceptable and the assumption that because someone has a skill themselves they can automatically teach it is dying. To be honest, some of the best doctors I have ever met were truly terrible teachers - I don't doubt that applies to dancers too. There is hope. Professions with long held traditions are slow to change but will do eventually. Hopefully at least some of today's dance students are going to be tomorrow's dance teachers who will go on to say "I'm not going to do it that way" instead of "We've always done it that way" and eventually the toxic cycle wil break.

I was about to say the same thing. My DD always used suede tips and would brush them with a wire brush after every wear. That stopped them becoming slippery and she'd generally worn the shoes out before the patches were beyond revival.

I think the overall numbers are valuable to know, because it helps a child/parent realise that the vast majority of applicants are actually unsuccessful. It's very easy to feel that you/your child are the only one to get a "no", because human nature being what it is, people tend to share news of success much more freely. Seeing it in black and white that something like 9 out of 10 children will not be chosen can help with expectation management beforehand and disappointment afterwards. But detailed analysis of the odds of success for any particular centre/year group/sex is probably just tying yourself in knots for no real benefit. As with all these things, population statistics do what they say on the tin - describe a population. But what they can't do is predict outcome for individuals. I know it is lots easier to say than it is to actually do, but over thinking things and worrying about stuff that you have no influence over does tend to make all these things even more stressful than they need to be. Not specifically dance related, but I have learned in recent years that energy expended on things that are outside of your control is very seldom positive. My advice these days is very much focus on what you do have influence over, don't stress over what you don't and enjoy the ride as best you can.

Have you looked at Preston College? It may not be a "big name" but I know of several people who have gone there and speak very highly of their experience there. I think they have a number of course options but unless things have changed very recently you can definitely do teaching qualifications alongside their other courses. The facilities look lovely and Preston isn't a bad place to live, with very good transport links.