Pups_mum

I think the pressures on school budgets and the demands of the national curriculum are likely to limit the success of this scheme in the state sector at least. It is admittedly a long time since I had a primary aged child of my own, but I have a few friends and relations who are teachers/TAs and they all tell the same kind of stories. Whilst this scheme may be inexpensive compared to paying a "live" qualified dance teacher, I can't see the kind of schools where teachers are paying for glue sticks and cereal bars out of their own pockets and SATs scores take priority over all else, being able to find £500-£1000 for a "non essential". And that's the kind of thing I'm hearing from my teacher friends at present. One of my relatives was telling me recently that a significant proportion of her pupils come to school hungry in the morning and her school budget barely covers basic stationary costs. Ballet is not likely to be a priority there, even though it would probably benefit the children. I could envisage some independent schools liking the kudos and reduced costs compared to in person teaching maybe though.

Sending you virtual hugs @Sooty I hope all your loved ones are safe and that some semblance of normality returns for you soon. It certainly puts a lot of things into perspective when we think about the situation in Ukraine. I hope your son continues to enjoy his dancing and that other opportunities come his way when the time is right.

Don't worry everyone. Assuming EYB is still run along the same lines as it was when my DD was young enough for it, you'll get really clear instructions about everything. Of all the things my children have done through their various hobbies over the years I think EYB is right up there around the top in terms of both organisation and quality of experience. DD did it multiple times and on every occasion it was well organised and what you expected to happen did so, when and how you expected. On the odd occasion something had to change it was well communicated. Miss Lewis and the other staff expect hard work and commitment from the participants (expect your children to come home tired after rehearsals!) but it cuts both ways, and you can expect the same back. My DD got a great deal out of EYB and we were a bit sad when she was too old to continue. One of the key things to remember is that there are no "bad" parts. Everyone gets plenty of time on stage and the choreography is done such that in the big groups the dancers rotate so everyone can be seen - there's nobody stuck on the back row or hidden away in the corner. So of your young dancers come back from the casting day disappointed that they haven't got the role they were dreaming of, do reassure them that all the parts are good and enjoyable. In fact my DD really enjoyed being in the groups as she made loads of friends and learned a lot of new skills. Enjoy the experience everyone!

I think young dancers sometimes see examiners as being some kind of alien species and it can be helpful to remind them that the majority are teachers too, who enter their pupils into exams as well, so they do know how the dancers are feeling. In my experience, the vast majority are nice people who want to see youngsters doing as well as they can. I would guess that the examiner could tell that your DD wasn't dancing to her usual standard because of nerves and I'm sure all examiners understand how difficult it is for children who have essentially been dancing in private for 3 years to now perform in front of a stranger. The fact that she was given the chance to start again sounds positive to me. I'm reminded of the time my DD came out of a ballet exam in tears. I think it was grade 5 and she'd worked very hard for it and was fairly confident so I was surprised it hadn't gone well. But it turns out that her friend who was the only other pupil doing that grade was ill, so DD had only discovered when she arrived that she'd be alone and it had thrown her. Much like your DD she started off with a bit of a wobble and the examiner had told her to start again. It went ok from then but she was convinced she had done badly because of the restart. In fact she got a Distinction and if I recall rightly, with the highest mark she ever got in an exam. Examiners are human, and they understand that dancers are too! I think your DD might be pleasantly surprised. And if not, she has still learned from the experience and from doing the syllabus, which is actually what matters much more than the mark on a piece of paper anyway.

I shouldn't worry. Do make sure she wears socks rather than tights for the audition though, as assuming we are back to pre Covid routines, they may want to look at bare feet.

Congratulations and good luck with the future to the yesses and congratulations and good luck for the future to the nos. All your children have achieved something significant and will, I'm sure, go on to do so again in the future. In some ways I think a no at this stage is the hardest to bear. A few years ago one of my sons got to the last 8 in trials for a fairly prestigious sports programme. They wanted 4 and he didn't get in. Obviously he was very disappointed To have got so close and then be left with what felt like nothing was hard to bear. But now we look back on it with relief. It would have been massively disruptive to our family life and cost us a fortune in money and time. He would have to have given up other sports and activities that he enjoys. There would have been good things if he'd been picked too of course - we wouldn't have gone if we hadn't thought there were benefits - but with time, things don't look so black and white as they did then. When you are right in the middle of these things (especially if you're a child) everything looks binary - yes/no, good/bad, winner/loser, but in reality different outcomes are just different. There will be ups and downs either way. Right now it is difficult, probably impossible, for your children to see positives in a no, but with time hopefully they will, and will also come to see the experience itself as valuable. Initially my son lost confidence after his rejection but after a while realised that of course he was good. He got to the last 8. He wouldn't have been there if he wasn't under serious consideration. And that ultimately gave him a boost. Plus he can now look back and appreciate that he had a great weekend playing in an excellent venue with other likeminded boys, being coached by national level coaches. Many people would pay a fortune for that and he got invited. I think children who have received a no (and their parents) need time and space, and to be "allowed" to feel sad, but good things will come in due course, even if they're not exactly the good things you were imagining. And likewise, children with yesses (and their parents) need to be able to express the anxieties and sadness that will no doubt tinge the excitement of such a big life change. Sometimes successful candidates feel they have to be happy about everything as to express anything negative is ungrateful, or hurtful to friends who can't go, but they need to express themselves too. Best of luck to you all, whatever comes next.

I would definitely accept your regular secondary school place @Julsgalaxyuntil a vocational school place is absolutely sorted.. If you reject it and for any reason your DC doesn't end up going to vocational school there is no guarantee you will get a place back at your original preference. It's easy enough to let the LEA know that you don't want the place after all once everything is signed and sealed for vocational school. If your local secondary is over subscribed then that will lead to someone on the waiting list getting offered the place, and if it isn't it doesn't really affect anything, so no harm either way. But the last thing you want is to turn down the regular school place, hit some kind of hitch with vocational school admission and end up with your DC having to go to whatever other secondary in your LEA that happens to have places left, and potentially being faced with more stress over waiting lists and/or appeals. A golden rule of the dance world is always to have Plan B (and preferably CD and E!) sorted, so get your secondary place in the bag now so that's one less thing to worry about. Hope you all get well soon.

That's a really difficult question as it depends so much on the context. I would have different opinions depending on things like the age and stage of the dancer, what else they were doing and precisely what the classes were. For instance, if we are talking about a child who dances multiple times a week and the 45 minute class is something non essential (for instance my DD used to do a class that was between 2 that she wanted to do and she preferred to do the extra rather than wait on her own) and the monthly class was a good quality associate scheme then I would think most people would say that the time and money was better spent on the monthly class. However, for a dancer who is not doing many classes the opposite might be true. Any skill needs regular practice and a monthly class without additional regular lessons in between probably wouldn't do a lot of good no matter how great the teaching was. Plus there would be the risk of injury to consider for a dancer taking a 3 hour class if not already doing a fair bit of dancing. So my answer I'm afraid, is a very woolly "it depends"!

So sad. One of the real tragedies of doping in any sport is that it detracts from what an athlete actually can do. I don't believe there is a drug on earth that can turn a mediocre performer into a world beater in any sphere. Doping may make an already talented athlete perform a bit better for a bit longer but they would still probably be great if drug free. And the longer term effects are just not worth it. This case is particularly shocking as it's a child who I doubt has any real understanding or say in what happens to her. Reminds me of the young gymnasts we used to see from the USSR, East Germany etc in the 70s and 80s. I thought things were moving on, but clearly not fast enough.

I'd second the advice up thread about not over analysing things. There's no doubt that at this stage the various associate programmes are looking for potential,and physique is a very important part of that. But none of us knows exactly what panels are looking for, and even if we did, it is likely to be things that we can't change anyway. The best thing is to go along, view it as a nice day out and try to enjoy the audition as an experience in it's own right and not worry too much about the result. I'm not sure of the most recent figures, but traditionally there's something in the region of 10 applicants for each JA place, so the vast majority of applicants will be unsuccessful. Not that I'm saying don't apply, but it's worth doing some expectation management. The majority of applicants will be the most promising dancers in their local schools and this is often the first time they will have encountered this kind of situation, so if they're not chosen the disappointment can be hard to manage. I think it's worth understanding the odds yourself, and trying to get that over to your child beforehand. Especially if they know others who are or have been JAs its easy to think that they are the one who didn't get in if that happend, whereas of course they're actually in the large majority. RBS are looking for the children they think will best fit with their system. Not being chosen doesn't mean that you're not a good dancer or that other routes aren't available. Nothing is set in stone at this age. Of course someone has to be successful, and it could well be your DD - it's definitely worth a try if it's something you feel she would enjoy. Just don't stress about it. It's easy to get sucked into trying to second guess everything in the ballet world, but over thinking things rarely helps and can stop you doing what matters most of all - enjoying it!

My son doesn't dance but he does do a couple of sports fairly intensively and has a restricted diet due to allergies which mean he can't have a lot of the more typical snacks that his peers use. Things he likes include dry cereal (typically granola or cheerios), malt loaf or similar - soreen make quite a lot of different flavours in lunchbox sized bars - rice cakes and fruit puree pouches. He also has a vegan protein recovery shake ( we use My Protein too) after intense workouts. Another idea is high protein yoghurts such as Skyr. You can get quite a few varieties in pouches now so you're not left with sticky spoons in the bottom of kit bags!

My children have been on all sides of the "not the best" winning something scenario and I agree that it depends a lot on how the adjudicator phrases the feedback. The best I ever heard was at a music competition which my son won, despite obviously not being the best player on the day. And there was a significant monetary prize so it was all a bit awkward! But the adjudicator explained it beautifully. It was actually a masterclass kind of thing. Each competitor gave their performance, had what was essentially a short public lesson from the adjudicator and then performed their piece again. She gave really detailed feedback to them all, but said that she'd chosen my son because he was the one who had best implemented her teaching into his second performance and gave very specific examples. The word "best" was never used. It made sense. My son felt like he deserved his prize, and whilst the most accomplished player was clearly still disappointed, they "got it" too. Nobody felt insulted. (Or if they did, they hid it extremely well.) I've noticed that the standard of adjudication at music festivals, even our little local ones, is very high generally, with all the competitors getting detailed individual feedback regardless of placing. However, that just wouldn't be possible at any of the dance festivals I have been to, unless they doubled the number of days they ran over.

Being asked to contribute to the theatre hire seems a bit odd. Every school I have known do shows in theatres aims to cover the costs of things like theatre hire, scenery hire, lighting/sound techs from ticket sales, but as a PP said, if you then don't have to pay to watch that would be fine. I think it's pretty common to be asked to buy costumes, unless the school is very well established and has a "library" of costumes that are reused year on year. It costs a lot to put on a show. I had some idea when I helped out when my DD was a dancer but now she's a teacher it's even clearer to me. €25 per costume is probably reasonable, assuming prices are similar to the UK. I used to source costumes for the school my DD danced with and I would do everything I could to minimise the costs - buying from abroad, scouring Ebay for multiple sellers who had small numbers of the same costume trying to make up enough for a group, ringing up companies trying to negotiate discounts on bulk purchases, altering things for people myself at no cost etc. I managed to get things much cheaper that way, but it was hard work and stressful and I can understand why lots of teachers just order from the IDS catalogue or similar. It's an expensive business unfortunately. I nearly fainted when I discovered what it costs to hire backdrops!

Lots of people have strong feelings on festivals/competition in general. Personally I think they have their place, but it's best not to take them too seriously. There is a lot to learn from them, especially for dancers who don't have many other performance opportunities open to them. And they are definitely a lesson in resilience. Any kind of assessment, be that adjudication in a festival, or an exam, or an audition, is a snapshot of a dancer's ability and to some degree a reflection of the assessors personal opinion and taste. Judging an art can, in my opinion, never be completely objective, and dancers do have to learn to deal with that. Faced with choosing between a less demanding dance performed flawlessly and a far more difficult one with a few errors, or a technically excellent but somewhat uninspiring presentation vs a less refinined but captivating performance, what is "best"? We might all have our preferences, but as the saying goes "the adjudicator's decision is final" and we do know that when we enter competitions. The important thing is not to place too much importance on that one piece of feedback but to add it to the bigger picture. My DD did festivals from the age of 5 to 17 and encountered a wide range of adjuducators. There were times when I thought she was hard done by but also others when she was placed and we were both very suprised. That's how the cookie crumbles. I have come across a few (and only a few) adjudicators who I considered "poor" - the ones whose comments were more about hair and make up than dance, and the odd one who made harsh comments to small children. Teens are a bit different. They are masters of their own fate to a larger degree and should be better able to accept negative feedback as well as positive, but I have no time for any adjudicator who criticises a 5 year old's grooming for instance. Fortunately these are few and far between in my experience and on the vast majority of occasions there was something to be gained from the comments, either directly to DD or to other competitors, even if I didn't necessarily agree with the placings. Adjudicators are humans after all, with strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes, and they are giving a subjective opinion, not marking a maths paper with definite rights and wrongs. DD learned a lot from festivals, and at least as much of it was general life lessons rather than dance specific. Learning to deal with, as Kipling puts it, those "2 impostors" is very valuable, whether a young person goes into dance as a career or something unrelated. I'm glad my DD got the chance to learn some of those lessons from a young age, with me and a supportive teacher by her side, as they have come in very useful in her later life. I'm sorry your grandaughter was upset by this decision OP, but from what you've said, I doubt the adjudicator was trying to break anyone's spirit. Probably if anything she was trying to encourage the other girl in whom she saw potential. Therr are, without doubt, some bad apples in the adjudicator pool, but in my experience most are decent people doing a job where they can never please everyone.

I think the big problem is that although the world has kind of stood still in some respects for the last 2 years, and may continue to do so for a while longer, it hasn't done so for the schools and colleges who are still producing graduates at the normal rate. There are always more graduates than jobs, even in more normal times, but Covid has definitely exacerbated the problem. Even if job opportunities return to the pre Covid norm in a couple of years, which is probably optimistic,surely there is going to be a huge pool of dancers chasing them? I would imagine that the newest graduates would be first choice for some roles, and experienced performers for others. But the Covid cohorts are potentially very disadvantaged as they will no longer be fresh new graduates, but they haven't had the opportunity to develop and gain experience either. Even keeping at the level they were when they graduated is going to be difficult. It's terribly unfair to this cohort of talented young dancers and I absolutely understand why so many are so upset and disillusioned. Many of my DD's friends are in this position, and I really for them. It is very sad, but for many, the most pragmatic option is a change of direction, be that a new path in the dance world or something completely different. Waiting a few years isn't a realistic option for many unfortunately. Other professions will have similar issues but I think the fact that the average dancer has a fairly short performing career under normal circumstances makes them particularly vulnerable.It isn't the dancers' fault, or the colleges', or the companies' - or anyone's fault really. But it is unfortunately reality.

I think you are very wise to suggest some "time out" @FlexyNexy It is extremely difficult for anyone to see a way out of a situation that they are not happy with when they are right in the middle of it. This has always been a problem of course but the pandemic has made it a great deal worse. It's probably hard for your DD to see it right now, but so much of the situation is outside her control and sometimes it helps to accept that you can't change what's happening, but you can change how you respond to it. She is still very young and clearly has a loving and supportive family. There is no harm in taking some time out to think and reappraise the situation. Not having a plan B at this age is not the end of the world, upsetting as it may seem now. And she certainly will have many transferable skills - it's not been wasted time. Good luck to her in whatever the future holds.

I can see things from your perspective Squawk020 - it's tough to have a dream and not be able to chase it, and I quite understand the "better to try and be unsuccessful than not to try at all" ethos. However, I also have a lot of sympathy for your Mum and Dad, and it sounds like they want the best for you. As Rowan has said, you will be competing with the very best dancers, not only in this country, but internationally, many of whom will have been in full time vocational training since they were 11. Even those who who aren't currently in full time training will probably be having many hours of tuition from local teachers as well as associate schemes, youth ballets, summer schools etc and most will have being dancing since they were quite young. I'm not saying it is impossible for late starters to go onto professional careers, but it is a lot, lot more difficult, and those who succeed are generally exceptional talents. What are you doing besides classes with your local teachers? Have you auditioned for any associate schemes, youth ballets or summer schools/othet intensives? If not, I would say that this is where you need to go first, before thinking of auditioning for a prestigious upper school like Elmhurst. This will give you more idea of where you currently are compared to those dancers who you would be competing for places with, and you'll get some more objective opinions regarding your potential. Things are starting to open up again post Covid now so hopefully you will be able to find some opportunities fairly close to you. My advice would be for you to work very hard for your GCSEs because whatever happens these are very important - everyone needs a plan B, and to broaden your horizons. Don't focus on only Elmhurst. Whether dance is destined to be your career, or to stay a lovely hobby, there are many, many ways in which it can be enjoyed. After A level there are other options and student finance may be available. And don't be too hard on Mum and Dad. Chances are they want what is best for you and are trying to protect you - read some of the stories on here and that might become clearer to you. It's great to aim high, but temper that with realism, keep your options open and try to communicate as much as possible with your parents. Do they know you are posting here by the way. Please take care online. We are a nice bunch here, but remember that anyone can read your posts.

My DD has experience of both, and indeed ITDA, as a student and teacher. I think she would agree with @Colman that they are all different rather than easier or more difficult. Of course any individual student may find one syllabus more or less challenging depending both on their particular strengths and weaknesses and on their teaching to date. I think I'd be inclined to start with grade 5 and see how it goes. It will take a little while to get used to the differences in terminology and structure of the exam etc. As a general rule, I think it's better with most things in life to begin someyhing new at a level you can manage without too much stress and then move up, rather than aim too high, find it difficult and lose confidence.

My DD would like to thank the forum mods for the prize she's now received. She loves it and can't wait to show her pupils. 🙂

I think you are right @Whiteduvet It is a fine line to tread, and nobody wants to crush a young person's dream, but sometimes no really does mean no. Not that I am advocating giving up at the first no, because learning resilience is very important, and for some there will be great success after initial rejections. But for a lot of dancers there does come a point when reality requires a change of direction. I am loathe to use the words "give up" as that is so negative and implies that the journey so far has been worthless, which it seldom is. But very often, these dedicated and talented young people do have to come to terms with the fact that repeatedly banging on closed doors is not good for them and that they need to find other outlets for their talents and passions. People often say very well meant things that actually can be damaging. One is the idea that you will succeed if you want it enough/ work hard enough. Obviously that is not exclusive to the ballet world - I have heard it said to many, many young people in different circumstances. Unfortunately it isn't true of course, and whilst motivation and hard work are crucial to success, on their own, they cannot guarantee it. We simply can't all be whatever we want to be. And when that eventually hits home, it can leave the young person believing it is their fault, for not working hard enough or being sufficiently dedicated, when of course that is rarely the case. The other thing that we experienced was people telling my DD not to worry as her (in ballet terms) sub optimal body proportions may well change as she grew up, despite a quick glance at everyone else in the family for several generations suggesting that was pretty unlikely. Or tales of great dancers who made it big despite physical imperfections. All true, but of course the stories are well known because they are so unusual, and the individuals involved had exceptional talents. Not that I think anyone ever intended their comments to be anything other than kind and encouraging, and of course it's natural to want to believe them, but I think a bit more pragmatism would help a lot of young dancers. And to be fair, had my DD faced reality earlier, she might not have discovered her talent and passion for teaching. But I do wish some people had been more up front with us. Maybe the answer is that somehow we need to encourage our young people to see alternatives to a performing career as equals, earlier on in their lives, rather than the second rate options to be taken if things don't work out, as they are often perceived. I'm not sure how to do that though!

I don't know the details sorry, but I believe that several of the dance organisations share a kind of mutual recognition scheme with the others whereby if you are qualified with one you can apply to be registered with the others, without having to go back to square one in the teacher training. As you aren't in the UK, I'd suggest contacting the ISTD and/or IDTA for advice as they both definitely have teachers in numerous countries and have syllabi in numerous genres.

I quite agree. There seems to be a culture of dispensibility in dance, and it's perhaps more marked in some other cultures than in this country. (It's not just dance of course, I've certainly observed the same in sport though I think it's getting less in the sports I'm involved in.) But there are definite vibes of "if they break we can just throw them out and get another one" and an acceptance that there will be a lot who fall by the wayside but that's ok, as long as enough of a suitable "product" come out at the end. Likewise we might hear things along the lines of "yes I suffered but it was worth it to get where I am" from those who succeeded, but we very rarely hear the stories of those who didn't "make it". Do they think it was worth it? What long term physical and psychological damage have they sustained? We need to remember that these are real young people and to hear their voices. Otherise nothing will change.

I'm not an expert, but as I understand it, there are both risks of acute injury and long term damage. If a girl doesn't yet have the physical strength and technical abilities to get up, and stay up en pointe correctly then they are more likely to get injured either by falls/twisting injuries etc or things like muscle strains because they are using the wrong muscles or using muscles incorrectly to find "cheats" to attempt things that they aren't yet really capable of. Longer term it's about putting significant loads through immature joints and bones leading to damage and deformity in later life. Let's face it, beautiful though it is, dancing en pointe is extremely unnatural and it can't be good for anybody's feet and ankles, but for a child where the bones are still developing and the growth plates haven't fused, the risks of damage must be more. Speaking as someone who has severe arthritis in one of my feet following an accident, it's pretty awful and not something I would wish on anyone, if it can be avoided. Unfortunately of course these kind of things aren't entirely predictable and no little girl who is excited about the prospect of her first pair of pointe shoes is going to think "Oh, hang on, I might end up with crippling arthritis in the future and after all this is almost certainly not going to be my lifelong careeer so maybe I should wait a couple of years." No, of course all she dreams about is bring a ballerina and pointe shoes are such a rite of passage that it is very tempting to overlook the downsides. With hindsight I wish I had insisted on my DD waiting longer, but fingers crossed she doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects as yet and she's in her mid 20s now. On the whole, I think it's not something to rush into and I would be very dubious about any school with a significant number of primary school aged children en pointe. I'm not sure such early pointe work is "beneficial" anyway - I doubt there will be significant difference in a girl who started at 9 or 10 and one of otherwise similar abilities who began 2 or 3 years later by the time they are in their mid teens. There seems to be a significant risk for no meaningful benefit as far as I can see.

I think @Kate_N is absolutely right. It's extremely difficult to say that anywhere is "best" because different children respond so differently. It's quite possible for one child to be thriving in the same class where another is struggling. I think you are wise to look at this aspect carefully though OP as it does often seem to be a secondary consideration and given the probability of a successful performing career is so small, it makes a lot of sense to do whatever you can to ensure that your DC gets at least a decent set of GCSEs. I've no personal experience of any of the schools under discussion, but just as a general point, I would look at the breadth of the curriculum as well as the results. Obviously it is hard to predict the future and lots of students change schools between GCSE and A level anyway, but if, for instance, your DC's plan B would be sciences you might be less keen on a school that doesn't offer science A levels. As Moorland is primarily a regular academic school with additional ballet and sport programmes I would assume there would be quite a wide range of subjects available at all levels, but I don't think that's the same everywhere, especially for A level so its worth checking.

Happy birthday balletcoforum and many thanks to all Mods past and present. I remember how sad it was when the previous forum closed and hiw excited and grateful ex members were when the new forum was launched. This forum, and it's predecessor have meant a lot to me over the years and I've met some lovely people as a result of being here. Obviously you get the occasional falling out on any forum, but the fact that they are so rare here is a testament to both how good the moderation is and how nice the members are. I think we definitely demonstrate how false the "dancemom" stereotype is as the vast majority of members here are kind, helpful and suportive to other parents and dancers. My "DD" is all grown up now so I feel rather out of touch but as she's now a teacher I am starting out again as some kind of surrogate dance grandma so who knows, maybe I'll have more to say in the coming years? Right now, I'm just glad that all the costumes and dancewear in our loft are starting to get some use again. I knew they'd come in useful one day! 😂 Happy Christmas to everyone, and let's hope the New Year brings better times.