Should we stop supporting ballet after Panorama?

[DVDfan]

I too wondered (after hearing the File on Four program) whether I should stop watching ballet. Thinking it over, I came to the conclusion that this is not actually about ballet, but about teachers bullying pupils. This is something that is very destructive, as my family knows to its considerable cost, and also something that can happen anywhere. And wherever it does happen, it needs to be stopped.

If I thought a ballet company was treating its dancers in the ways described in the programs, I would stop watching that company.

[Balletfanp]

There is also a point that there may be many dancers out there who have been through this tough system and possibly/probably scarred by it - but are now in a supportive Company and enjoying their career. Stopping support for Ballet may well make them feel that their experiences had been for nothing, if people stop going to ballet.

 

And you only have to remember how upset dancers were about not being able to perform, plus the worry of losing their profession entirely, during the pandemic, to realise what harm it would do, without solving the underlying problem - which is bullying from teachers. And that can happen in mainstream schools and in workplaces with bullying managers too. It’s part of a wider problem.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Balletfanp

[Drdee]

18 minutes ago, capybara said:

I think you may be one of the posters on here with more knowledge of the issues from the students’ perspective than many of us. Some other experiences and views differ. But everyone is probably struggling to express themselves in writing, which is always more difficult than being part of an ‘in person’ discussion, especially where really important and sensitive issues are concerned. So we need to give ourselves a bit of understanding and leeway too.

 

To answer Ondine’s original question - absolutely not!

 

Agree with absolutely not. I have my ENB ticket ready for Sept and looking forward to it. Education is key and the ‘myths’ of ballet training need to be challenged!!

[Silke H]

I will preclude that I have not watched Panorama (I don't own a TV or pay for TV license)

However, I can't see the relation between stopping watching ballet companies and ballet school teachers changing their behaviour.  Maybe the question should have been whether to financially stop supporting ballet schools?

I must say, that during my active ballet days I also experienced weigh-ins every Monday morning and being told to lose weight.  I certainly wasn't chubby, just athletic as opposed to scrawny like some of my fellow students.  Did that affect my relationship with food?  Absolutely.  Did that make me feel rubbish?  Of course.  Did that diminish my love for ballet?  Absolutely not.  It made me persevere and stubbornly chase my dream even harder.  I pushed through and graduated.  The thing that had me stop dancing were my knees that had given out on me during my graduating year.

My passion for ballet has remained high over the last three decades, albeit being a spectator rather than a dancer.

 

I have also been bullied in my day job that has no connection to dance or the arts, so I would say bullying needs to be addressed in general. But I won't be denying myself of the pleasure of watching ballet and supporting ballet companies by purchasing tickets, merchandise, etc.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Silke H
Typo

[Ondine]

Another perspective. @LukeJennings in a long and thoughful piece in the LRB, 2021. A few quotes.

 

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n18/luke-jennings/learned-behaviour

 

 

"But they crushed us. We were eleven years old and there was no kindness. They drew attention to us only to belittle us. I lost all confidence, and by the first term of Year Eleven, I knew I didn’t want to go on."

 

"Emma, an experienced ballet teacher, works at a dance school unconnected to the Royal Ballet, but which regularly takes ex-White Lodge students. ‘We get the ones who’ve been assessed out, and when they come to us they’re trembling messes. The last three we took were all receiving psychiatric care. No art is worth that cost in children’s suffering.’  "

 

"Scarlett didn’t have an easy time at first. The technical standard of the company is sky-high and he found himself at full stretch. One corps de ballet colleague remembers him ‘really struggling, really suffering’ in Frederick Ashton’s Les Rendezvous and told me he was picked on in rehearsals by a senior member of the company, a man with an established reputation for bullying younger dancers. Still worse, according to the corps de ballet member, Scarlett was ‘passed around like Manon’. ‘Everyone knew about it. Everything Liam was later accused of was done to him. It was learned behaviour.'  "

 

"All of the many people interviewed for this piece asked to remain anonymous. In the dance world, they say, the Royal Ballet has a long reach."

 

There's a final paragraph which ends:

 

"It isn’t enough for the Royal Ballet merely to go through the motions of change in the hope that everything can stay the same."

 

All that glisters is not gold is it? 

 

 

 

[Fonty]

On 12/09/2023 at 23:52, Ondine said:

Boarding schools. So very British yes. So damaging to many, especially those sent off at seven as used to be common, while others say it was 'the making of them' and loved their time at school. It would be useful to hear from those who were at White Lodge and either loved it or loathed it. Should places like this carry on? Is there a different, better way?

 

 

 

I absolutely adored being a boarder at 11.   The calm, regimented life suited me down to the ground.  On top of that there was no need to waste time travelling to and from school, and trying to find time to fit in homework.  Looking back, I would say that I can think of only one girl in the whole school who was so homesick she left.  Anyone who was a day pupil had to live very close to the school, and as someone pointed out not everyone can afford houses in the suitable areas.  Personally, I would have hated living with strangers in an ordinary house, perhaps occupying the spare room.  That sounds as though it could be a bit lonely, no matter how kind the owners are.

 

Certainly I think that 7 or 8 is way too young to be at boarding school, but 11?  I sometimes think the concept of boarding school is harder on the parents than the children, as they frequently  find it more difficult to accept the separation.  

 

Edited to add my experiences were rather a long time ago.  I will post a few thoughts when I get my ideas in order, but it might be a long post as I feel there are so many issues to be raised.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Fonty

[EVWS]

Just now, Fonty said:

I sometimes think the concept of boarding school is harder on the parents than the children, as they frequently  find it more difficult to accept the separation.  

 

As someone who boarded from 11 and loved it, I would agree with this! 

[Lizbie1]

I boarded from 10 and loved it - very few seemed to struggle and indeed there was a waiting list for boarding places from day pupils who wanted to board instead because they felt they were missing out!

[Tango Dancer]

27 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

I absolutely adored being a boarder at 11.   The calm, regimented life suited me down to the ground.  On top of that there was no need to waste time travelling to and from school, and trying to find time to fit in homework.  Looking back, I would say that I can think of only one girl in the whole school who was so homesick she left.  Anyone who was a day pupil had to live very close to the school, and as someone pointed out not everyone can afford houses in the suitable areas.  Personally, I would have hated living with strangers in an ordinary house, perhaps occupying the spare room.  That sounds as though it could be a bit lonely, no matter how kind the owners are.

 

Certainly I think that 7 or 8 is way too young to be at boarding school, but 11?  I sometimes think the concept of boarding school is harder on the parents than the children, as they frequently  find it more difficult to accept the separation.  

 

Edited to add my experiences were rather a long time ago.  I will post a few thoughts when I get my ideas in order, but it might be a long post as I feel there are so many issues to be raised.

 

I think 7 or 8 is too young.  My grandfather boarded from age 7 and he and his brothers all hated it.  There was also a lot of bullying as it was a very big and regimented school with a lot of rules.  I must say the men I know who boarded from that age seem all a bit emotionally stunted (although obviously this is limited to the small number of men I know who went to boarding school). 

 

My father went to a public school with some boarders and he said he actually envied them quite a bit because he was very unhappy at home.    

 

My grandmother went at 11 and loved it.  So did my godmother and some of my aunts and a couple of my friends (all different generations and ages).  They all seemed to benefit from single sex boarding education and were really happy and self confident.  I think they also went to slightly smaller, more supportive schools than the big public schools.  

 

Interestingly the divide seems to be along sex based lines, as the women I know who went to board slightly older seemed to enjoy it a lot more as I think it was more their choice.  

[dance fan]

People here enjoy watching ballet.  Almost nothing will convince them to stop watching ballet unless the ballet becomes "too woke".  As far as I can tell, the only thing that will make ballet fan stop attending and supporting it is if they think the ballet themselves are too woke, or the ballet organization are too woke.  Going the other way, and becoming more "non-woke" will only increase viewership.  Russian ballet companies are the least woke, and they are still revered as the gold standard.  People in the west are no longer able to watch Russian ballet companies perform but I'm certain that once the ban is lifted, people will come back in droves.  

 

Chinese workers are exploited but this didn't stop people from clamoring for iphones.  

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

A post on this thread has been hidden while it is discussed by the Moderation Team.

[Ondine]

A relevant article from 2021, Pointe Magazine

 

As Ballet Looks Toward Its Future, Let's Talk About Its Troubling Emotional Demands https://pointemagazine.com/ballet-and-emotional-demands/

[Ondine]

I would appear that issues of bullying and inappropriate remarks are being taken very seriously in some ballet companies.

 

Michael Auer, the Royal New Zealand Ballet’s fired ballet master and husband of artistic director Patricia Barker, was banned from all company premises after multiple complaints were made about his behaviour, according to documents released under the Official Information Act.

 

The video is worth watching. It suggest he was making comments about weight to dancers. (Thanks to @Ian Macmillan for this from links 14th September)

 

It's the news report part way down the article.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/129475172/fired-ballet-master-banned-from-company-premises

 

 

 

[MAK]

I'm interested to know - if the dancers in principal roles had curvier figures and perhaps looked more like women than young girls (and I'm not by any means saying that some don't, I'm very much generalising) would regular ballet audience members be put off? For me, when I watch dance, I'm inspired by those dancers that draw me in with their incredible artistry as well as exceptional technical prowess. Inevitably with the amount of exercise they are undertaking, professional dancers tend to be lean. But do they really need to be skinny, and in the case of the female dancers, have a kind of pre-pubescent look? 

[alison]

Absolutely not, in my case. When the RB dancers came back after lockdown, I wasn't sorry to see them seemingly carrying a bit more weight than previously.

[Lindsay]

On 14/09/2023 at 18:12, dance fan said:

As far as I can tell, the only thing that will make ballet fan stop attending and supporting it is if they think the ballet themselves are too woke, or the ballet organization are too woke.

I don’t think you speak for all “people here” dance fan.  Ballet is one of the least “woke” (some might call it respectful by the way) of the major art forms.  To the extent that I often go to the ballet alone whereas I would never hesitate to bring friends to the theatre or concerts.  I am still stinging from inadvertently taking a shocked friend to a Bolshoi performance several years ago which contained blackface……

[dance fan]

3 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

I don’t think you speak for all “people here” dance fan.  Ballet is one of the least “woke” (some might call it respectful by the way) of the major art forms.  To the extent that I often go to the ballet alone whereas I would never hesitate to bring friends to the theatre or concerts.  I am still stinging from inadvertently taking a shocked friend to a Bolshoi performance several years ago which contained blackface……

I think you support my point.  I said ballet fan may stop supporting ballet if it became "too woke" thus I'm saying that ballet fans are "not woke".  You appear to agree with me or at least partially because your claim is that ballet is the "least woke" of the "high arts".

[Lindsay]

11 minutes ago, dance fan said:

I think you support my point.  I said ballet fan may stop supporting ballet if it became "too woke" thus I'm saying that ballet fans are "not woke".  You appear to agree with me or at least partially because your claim is that ballet is the "least woke" of the "high arts".

I do not support your point at all.  I think ballet is missing out on new audiences (and outside of the ROH/Christmas Nutcracker remember it is very hard to sell out ballet in the U.K.).  I think the current audience is much smaller than it could be (and ageing and not regenerating itself) because of the dated attitudes and stereotypes.  I am very happy to see  dancers who look like human females rather than the current Russian trend for stick-thin clones.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Lindsay

[Dawnstar]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

I'm interested to know - if the dancers in principal roles had curvier figures and perhaps looked more like women than young girls (and I'm not by any means saying that some don't, I'm very much generalising) would regular ballet audience members be put off? For me, when I watch dance, I'm inspired by those dancers that draw me in with their incredible artistry as well as exceptional technical prowess. Inevitably with the amount of exercise they are undertaking, professional dancers tend to be lean. But do they really need to be skinny, and in the case of the female dancers, have a kind of pre-pubescent look? 

 

I think looking young helps with plausibility for certain roles: Juliet, Manon & Aurora for instance, all characters who are supposed to be teenagers. I wouldn't say being skeletal is necessary but girlish rather than womanly in build. My opinion on this may be influenced by having spent nearly 20 years regularly operagoing compared to only a few years of balletgoing. After years of trying to suspend disbelief when watching stout 50 year old tenors as young heros or very unconsumptive-looking sopranos supposedly dying of TB (yes, there are plenty of physically plausible opera singers but there are also plenty of implausible ones), it's nice when seeing ballet to know that no matter what cast you see they will look suitable youthful & slender for their characters.

[maryrosesatonapin]

1 hour ago, Dawnstar said:

 

very unconsumptive-looking sopranos supposedly dying of TB 

Ah yes, I've seen so many middle-aged plump Traviatas!  I know what you mean. But opera singers have become much fitter, and better actors, than they were when I first started watching opera half a century ago.

Having heard some ballerinas (such as Zakharova) speak about this, they say they are so constantly and extremely active that they actually find it difficult to put on weight; yet, the weight they do have is muscle, so they are actually heavier than they look. We have to think of their male partners too.

[Kerfuffle]

Opera singers reach their peak much later than dancers (in 40s) and I’d prefer to hear a really good mature singer than one who isn’t ready for the role. 

[LinMM]

When people are talking about ballet fans in general could they use the word “some” “many” or “a few” rather than use the word “all”

I dislike the word “woke” because it has gained a pejorative meaning in the last year or two but should refer to people who want to treat all humans on an equal basis regardless of race colour gender etc. 

I don’t wish to be referred to as someone who does not do this as a ballet fan. 

 

[MAK]

12 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

 

I think looking young helps with plausibility for certain roles: Juliet, Manon & Aurora for instance, all characters who are supposed to be teenagers. I wouldn't say being skeletal is necessary but girlish rather than womanly in build. My opinion on this may be influenced by having spent nearly 20 years regularly operagoing compared to only a few years of balletgoing. After years of trying to suspend disbelief when watching stout 50 year old tenors as young heros or very unconsumptive-looking sopranos supposedly dying of TB (yes, there are plenty of physically plausible opera singers but there are also plenty of implausible ones), it's nice when seeing ballet to know that no matter what cast you see they will look suitable youthful & slender for their characters.

Thank you for this. It reminds me of a conversation I've had a few times with my daughter about the acting world, which she has some involvement in/experience of, and whether we should try to rewrite history (and characters) or create new, interesting roles for the world that we live in. Maybe it's akin to the likes of Matthew Bourne (and others) pushing those boundaries and creating exciting new work that both existing and future audiences will love and eventually (hopefully) this will have a knock on impact on the training and physical requirements in the earlier stages of these dancers' careers. Just thinking out loud here.

[LinMM]

I like ENB’s approach of having a revised version of Giselle( Akram Khan) and …at the same time….still running the more traditional version of say Mary Skeaping . I think it’s “both and”  rather than “either or” at least with the bigger classical companies. 

[AnnabelCharles]

I completely agree with this, LinMM. As with art more generally, I want to see and experience traditional ballets and also those that reinterpret classics or explore contemporary themes and attitudes. 

 

I also agree with your comments about the word 'woke'. It means concern for racial and social justice - and is something I find it hard to imagine anyone not thinking was important. Its use as a perjorative epithet is often inaccurate and can be unhelpfully divisive.

[Ondine]

 

I'd love to have dancers like Michaela DePrince not be the exception. She is an inspiration however.  She's had to overcome so many difficulties and obstacles to be where she is, including assumptions about her weight & bodyshape. 🤨 Do please watch!  She's a lovely dancer. Boston Ballet. (Official link)

 

'To spread more poppies in a field of daffodils'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alison]

Boston? Has she moved?

[capybara]

3 minutes ago, alison said:

Boston? Has she moved?

Michaela has been in Boston for quite a while now.

[Emeralds]

Tamara Rojo invited Michaela de Prince to perform Myrtha in Mary Skeaping’s production of Giselle at the London Coliseum as a guest artist in 2017. Having seen the home company at ROH struggle with the tempi for Myrtha’s solos for many seasons, it was a relief to see not only a production that didn’t rush the music for Myrtha, but also a dancer who could handle the technical demands of the choreography and not seem to be struggling to keep up. She was a fierce (in both the conventional and the urban slang sense!) Myrtha, and it was an outstanding debut with the ompany.

 

Another role British audiences might have seen her in (besides the award winning First Position documentary) was the lead in the online film of Coppelia with  Daniel Camargo and many Dutch National Ballet colleagues. She also has a supporting role in the DVD (occasionally aired on Sky Arts) of Ted Brandsen’s Mata Hari. Now that she’s moved to Boston Ballet, I hope she’ll return here at some point in either a gala or another guest artist appearance. What is wonderful about her is her “go for it” fearlessness. You never feel she is hesitant about anything - she is so focused and so strong. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Emeralds

[LinMM]

I thought she was terrific as Myrtha at the Coli 

[Fonty]

22 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

 

I think looking young helps with plausibility for certain roles: Juliet, Manon & Aurora for instance, all characters who are supposed to be teenagers. I wouldn't say being skeletal is necessary but girlish rather than womanly in build. My opinion on this may be influenced by having spent nearly 20 years regularly operagoing compared to only a few years of balletgoing. After years of trying to suspend disbelief when watching stout 50 year old tenors as young heros or very unconsumptive-looking sopranos supposedly dying of TB (yes, there are plenty of physically plausible opera singers but there are also plenty of implausible ones), it's nice when seeing ballet to know that no matter what cast you see they will look suitable youthful & slender for their characters.

 

I am not quite sure what you mean by being "womanly" in build when it comes to ballet dancers. It always strikes me when I watch video clips of Margot Fonteyn that while she was obviously slender, she still looked like a woman.  She didn't look scrawny.  Shapes have definitely changed, and I for one would like to see some of the ladies with a fraction more meat on their bones.  After all, the ability to portray youth comes from their ability to dance and act youthfully, not from being so thin they look prepubescent.  

I know very little about opera, but no matter how stout the individual is, they should be able to convey youth by their body movement.  After all, there are plenty of well upholstered youngsters around, although I grant you an overweight consumptive is pushing it a bit.  Maybe their acting skills leave something to be desired?

[Ondine]

On 15/09/2023 at 22:18, Dawnstar said:

Juliet, Manon & Aurora for instance, all characters who are supposed to be teenagers

 

Juliet gets married and has s e x with Romeo during the ballet. At one point in the ballet she discovers she has grown breasts. Manon... well. Young yes but she doesn't need to look like a child. In fact better she doesn't. Aurora on her birthday is being shown her prospective husbands,  so looking young womanly rather than girly would be fine.

 

Dancers can be slim (ballet does burn off the calories and builds long muscles) without being skeletal. 

 

We've not really touched on male dancers. Maybe we should.

 

 

[Melody]

On 15/09/2023 at 15:14, MAK said:

I'm interested to know - if the dancers in principal roles had curvier figures and perhaps looked more like women than young girls (and I'm not by any means saying that some don't, I'm very much generalising) would regular ballet audience members be put off? For me, when I watch dance, I'm inspired by those dancers that draw me in with their incredible artistry as well as exceptional technical prowess. Inevitably with the amount of exercise they are undertaking, professional dancers tend to be lean. But do they really need to be skinny, and in the case of the female dancers, have a kind of pre-pubescent look? 

For example, would ballet have been better off if Lynn Seymour hadn't existed? Unfortunately, today's Lynn Seymours probably aren't going to have careers in ballet. Personally I don't think that's a good thing.

 

One of the greatest Juliets was Galina Ulanova in her 40s, and she looked like a woman.