ROYAL BALLET TRIPLE (McGregor/Wheeldon/MacMillan)

[Ondine]

5 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

That's how I feel @Linnzi5.

We lack here the face to face interaction which tends to moderate our speech and behaviour.  Humour and sarcasm can  be fine of course but I hope I have learned I shouldn't just assume  my own questionable sense of humour, or sarcasm, will be appropriate (even the use of emojis!), especially if personally deployed, in effect, against other posters as part of an  impassioned ballet discussion. It can descend into the sort of rather unpleasant back and forth that has arisen recently. I know I sometimes have to imagine if I would respond in a particular way if it were a "live" discussion, or alternatively if a statement would not work well unless deliverable / explainable face to face. If it seems my post reasonably could be seen as ill-judged, I hope I would think about a re-write in advance of assuming that if any  offence were to be taken, or misunderstanding were to arise,  it must be at the intent, or the fault, of the reader.

 

 

I don't wish to prolong this. I'm clearly the one on the naughty step. At my advanced age it's really quite strange. I don't fit and I may have difficulty getting up again. 

 

I'm sorry if anyone has been offended by my manner of posting. Perhaps though some are waiting to be offended.

 

I've never intended to offend, though I have in fact felt at times quite upset by some things people have said aimed at me. 

 

I've not as far as I am aware been personally offensive to or about anyone.

 

I'm not sarcastic, though at times I can be wry. It's lifetime of reading and re-reading Jane Austen, it rubs off.  It's difficult not to be myself. I've been myself for many decades. I doubt I will change now, and I'm unsure I want to.

 

I began adding emojis to try to get across tone.

 

Can we get back to talking about ballet, and stop getting all huffy? I do read and re-read what I write. Perhaps others should do the same. 

 

 

[Linnzi5]

15 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

That's how I feel @Linnzi5.

We lack here the face to face interaction which tends to moderate our speech and behaviour.  Humour and sarcasm can  be fine of course but I hope I have learned I shouldn't just assume  my own questionable sense of humour, or sarcasm, will be appropriate (even the use of emojis!), especially if personally deployed, in effect, against other posters as part of an  impassioned ballet discussion. It can descend into the sort of rather unpleasant back and forth that has arisen recently. I know I sometimes have to imagine if I would respond in a particular way if it were a "live" discussion, or alternatively if a statement would not work well unless deliverable / explainable face to face. If it seems my post reasonably could be seen as ill-judged, I hope I would think about a re-write in advance of assuming that if any  offence were to be taken, or misunderstanding were to arise,  it must be at the intent, or the fault, of the reader.

Totally agree, Richard. I try really hard to phrase things politely and constructively. I’m sure I fail sometimes, but I would be mortified if my post offended someone 😢

 

Back to the topic at hand - I read the reviews from some of the critics for Untitled 2023 (thank you to the Dance Links thread 😊) and it seems that it was reasonably well received, though most preferred CG. I love the opening duet between Matthew Ball and William Bracewell in CG -  not only are they both amazing (wonderful techniques) it is so emotive and delicately danced. It also appears Anastasia Act III was not so highly regarded. On Friday night CG got the loudest and most enthusiastic applause where I was sitting. Even the critics seems to hate the costumes from CG 🤣 Personally, I was more horrified by the Prima ones! 😱

[Ondine]

4 minutes ago, Linnzi5 said:

Totally agree, Richard. I try really hard to phrase things politely and constructively. I’m sure I fail sometimes, but I would be mortified if my post offended someone 😢

 

I do the same. If people are offended, it is really not my intention.  I have not been personally offensive to anyone.

 

I feel quite offended by this entire ridiculous waste of forum space, which is really aimed at me, isn't it, and perhaps some could see to the mote in their own eyes.

 

Let's talk about ballet, and let's agree we have different opinions, different modes of expressing ourselves,  and we can agree we don't always agree.

 

 

[Fonty]

13 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I feel quite offended by this entire ridiculous waste of forum space, which is really aimed at me, isn't it, and perhaps some could see to the mote in their own eyes.

 

Let's talk about ballet, and let's agree we have different opinions, different modes of expressing ourselves,  and we can agree we don't always agree.

 

 

 

I wouldn't normally respond to this, and at the risk of causing offence, but is it possible you are taking things a little too personally? Of course we all have different views, it is a discussion forum after all, and we all have our likes and dislikes.  I have no problem at all with someone disagreeing with me.  I would expect people to have all sorts of views.  However, I certainly don't take offence if someone disagrees with me.  I was rather startled on the Cinderella thread when someone asked how they could blank me.  That seemed to be bordering on personal dislike of me as a poster, which I thought was rather amusing.  I didn't think I had been THAT controversial, especially as others had made similar comments, and the moderators didn't think so either!  Maybe they don't like my photo?  

 

Anyway, back to McGregor.  I think the main issue I have with him is that I think his style of choreography is suited to a smaller setting.  I find that when his works are on the main stage, he feels the need to fill the space, to the detriment of the overall piece imo.  A more pared back setting with simple costumes and lighting would be my preference.

 

 

[capybara]

6 minutes ago, Fonty said:

Anyway, back to McGregor.  I think the main issue I have with him is that I think his style of choreography is suited to a smaller setting.  I find that when his works are on the main stage, he feels the need to fill the space, to the detriment of the overall piece imo.  A more pared back setting with simple costumes and lighting would be my preference.

 

A very interesting point which has got me thinking.

[Ondine]

4 minutes ago, Fonty said:

I wouldn't normally respond to this, and at the risk of causing offence, but is it possible you are taking things a little too personally?

 

Except it is aimed at me!  It is! And it's bizarre to keep having considered posts 'vanished' or thread locked with a metaphorical wrist slap.

 

As for your photo, I prefer the Sleeping Beauty tiara.  More glitzy.

 

Yes apparently you can mute people. Maybe the readily offended can search for that facility!

 

And I also feel many works are not helped by the size of the ROH, I agree, and I'd be grumpy about certain ballets / danceworks standing all evening peering through binoculars a very VERY a long way from the stage, after enduring problems buying tickets, travel difficulties, eaters munching away, phone flashers next to me... all the stuff endlessly posted about here (ducks)...

 

Ballet though. It's supposed to be entertaining.

 

 

 

 

 

[LinMM]

I think it’s very difficult to judge on occasions ( and I know I’ve made some mistakes here) what you would quite happily say in private discussion with friends or people you know very well and what you should share with people you don’t really know. 
We pick up all sorts of cues (and clues) when we are in the presence of others that you can hardly do in social media posting …..or not unless you’ve read some peoples posts a lot over the years lol!! 
 

Out of interest if the Moderators need to remove a post for consideration do they inform the poster first they are going to do this? 

[Ondine]

12 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Out of interest if the Moderators need to remove a post for consideration do they inform the poster first they are going to do this? 

 

 

No. You're... disappeared. 😐

 

At times it's simply baffling.  And rather offputting.

 

 

[Sim]

17 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I think it’s very difficult to judge on occasions ( and I know I’ve made some mistakes here) what you would quite happily say in private discussion with friends or people you know very well and what you should share with people you don’t really know. 
We pick up all sorts of cues (and clues) when we are in the presence of others that you can hardly do in social media posting …..or not unless you’ve read some peoples posts a lot over the years lol!! 
 

Out of interest if the Moderators need to remove a post for consideration do they inform the poster first they are going to do this? 

We do try to do this; if not we write on the hidden post that it is under consideration from the Mods.  This often happens when a member reports a post;  we always hide whilst we decide whether to keep it hidden or not.

[Ondine]

4 minutes ago, Sim said:

if not we write on the hidden post that it is under consideration from the Mods.  This often happens when a member reports a post;  we always hide whilst we decide whether to keep it hidden or not.

 

I've had posts removed where this hasn't happened. And I can't see what I did that was against forum rules. No explanation, just vanishing. 

 

 

 

[capybara]

I think we need to be considerate in what we expect of our Mods. They are all volunteers with lives to lead, families to see, jobs to do and ballet trips to make. And each issue they are faced with will surely be different and some might require a collective view which takes time.

 

[PS I am not a BCF Mod myself but I know something of the challenges from other, similar contexts.]

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by capybara

[Vanartus]

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

 

 

No. You're... disappeared. 😐

 

At times it's simply baffling.  And rather offputting.

 

 

It’s happened to me and I quite agree!

[Vanartus]

2 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

Except it is aimed at me!  It is! And it's bizarre to keep having considered posts 'vanished' or thread locked with a metaphorical wrist slap.

 

As for your photo, I prefer the Sleeping Beauty tiara.  More glitzy.

 

Yes apparently you can mute people. Maybe the readily offended can search for that facility!

 

And I also feel many works are not helped by the size of the ROH, I agree, and I'd be grumpy about certain ballets / danceworks standing all evening peering through binoculars a very VERY a long way from the stage, after enduring problems buying tickets, travel difficulties, eaters munching away, phone flashers next to me... all the stuff endlessly posted about here (ducks)...

 

Ballet though. It's supposed to be entertaining.

 

 

 

 

 

Agree…

 

and while “I’m/we’re at it” @Fonty if the pointe shoe fits - or glass slipper - then my comment referring to Wayne McGregor getting routinely slammed,  does apply to you because you had previously agreed with another post where some sort of mutual severance from the RB should be on the cards! But it applies to all the others who routinely join in the criticism, not just you.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Vanartus
Missing word

[Ondine]

22 minutes ago, capybara said:

think we need to be considerate in what we expect of our Mods.

 

 I would hope at least for an explanation, not a removal with no explanation, especially a new topic with links which was carefully considered, not only posts, or worse, a slapped wrist.

 

8 minutes ago, Vanartus said:

It’s happened to me and I quite agree!

 

 

Thanks. I'm not imagining things then...

[Fonty]

I have had posts moderated myself, so it is not an uncommon occurrence.  I have no idea why other posts were removed, but the main reason why mine have been is because of potential copyright problems with links.  Maybe if people have questions, then a DM to one of the hard working moderators as to exactly what was/is wrong with a specific post might help?  

Anyway, back to the triple bill.  I was amazed to read that McGregor uses 19 dancers.  That seems a lot to me for a plotless one act ballet.  

 

 

[Ondine]

2 minutes ago, Fonty said:

I was amazed to read that McGregor uses 19 dancers.

 

I suspect he was asked to make a one act work which involved a number of the younger, newer dancers who would enjoy having a work made on them, collaborating with him. Quite an accolade.  I appreciate some of the dancers were principals / soloists but many weren't.  Without this work on the bill, how many would actually have been on stage?

 

 

[Fonty]

2 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

I suspect he was asked to make a one act work which involved a number of the younger, newer dancers who would enjoy having a work made on them, collaborating with him. 

 

 

  Possible, I suppose.  Who would make that request?  Mr O'Hare?  

[Linnzi5]

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

Anyway, back to McGregor.  I think the main issue I have with him is that I think his style of choreography is suited to a smaller setting.  I find that when his works are on the main stage, he feels the need to fill the space, to the detriment of the overall piece imo.  A more pared back setting with simple costumes and lighting would be my preference.

 

 

Very interesting. I had never thought of the choreography being suited to a smaller setting. This has given me something to think about. I did like the costumes and lighting though. I like the stage too, but I do agree the it seemed a little large sometimes.

[San Perregrino]

6 minutes ago, Fonty said:

I have had posts moderated myself, so it is not an uncommon occurrence.  I have no idea why other posts were removed, but the main reason why mine have been is because of potential copyright problems with links.  Maybe if people have questions, then a DM to one of the hard working moderators as to exactly what was/is wrong with a specific post might help?  

Anyway, back to the triple bill.  I was amazed to read that McGregor uses 19 dancers.  That seems a lot to me for a plotless one act ballet.  

 

 

It’s ‘Untitled’, that doesn’t mean to say that it is plotless. The choreographer has been confident enough to credit his audience with the ability to determine his/her/their own plot accordingly. Or, to see the piece as abstract if that be his/her/their preference. How refreshing this can be. Having now seen it several times, I can say that I am getting new & different things with each performance.
A ballet, whatever the length, needs the number of dancers necessary to perform it. ‘Untitled’ is a piece choreographed for 19 dancers so 18 would be too few, 20 too many. Each dancer has his/her/their place on stage, contributing individual dance steps and when seen together creating a sum that greater than its parts. 

if you haven’t yet had the opportunity to see it, I’d suggest doing so before it’s too late. One person’s  meat … etc etc etc. The only way one can know if one likes something is to go along with an open mind and see it for oneself.
 

[KyleCheng]

5 hours ago, Geoff said:

Alastair Macaulay published these thoughts today:

 

https://slippedisc.com/2023/06/alastair-macaulay-covent-garden-has-gone-off-classical-track/

 

Unable to attend myself, I would love to hear some thoughts on this piece from folks who have seen the performance: do you agree? Just from reading the piece, I cannot quite see how the titular conclusion was drawn. I would think that one triple-bill is not enough to represent a company's competency in classicism.

[Ondine]

1 minute ago, KyleCheng said:

Unable to attend myself, I would love to hear some thoughts on this piece from folks who have seen the performance: do you agree? Just from reading the piece, I cannot quite see how the titular conclusion was drawn. I would think that one triple-bill is not enough to represent a company's competency in classicism.

 

 

I've just finished reading it. It's not really a one off and I had better not say what I think or I'll be having posts removed again.

 

Sorry if that sounds facetious but it's one heck of a word salad isn't it?  😐

 

 

[Jane S]

32 minutes ago, KyleCheng said:

 

Unable to attend myself, I would love to hear some thoughts on this piece from folks who have seen the performance: do you agree? Just from reading the piece, I cannot quite see how the titular conclusion was drawn. I would think that one triple-bill is not enough to represent a company's competency in classicism.

 

The title will have been added by a sub editor (or similar) without any consultation with the author, and on Alastair Macaulay's Twitter page he says that it's too sweeping a statement.

[JennyTaylor]

6 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

 

I have thought about that but then it seems an awful waste of money to pay for a full evening of performance & only see 40 minutes of it.... If only Morera wasn't retiring then I could happily skip the entire thing!

I'm with you. I've booked twice, purely for Laura Morera as I admire her so much and I want to see her final performances. I will endure the others and try to concentrate on my favourite dancers within them.  Can't say that I a really looking forward to it though. Oh for Month in the Country 

[MAX]

I have just read the comments about Wayne McGregor coming from those of you who are hoping that he will soon be replaced at The Royal Ballet.

 

As a frenchman, I don't think you understand how lucky your are to have such a repertoire and such choreographers.

 

The Paris Opera Ballet is forced to come to London to steal english ballets such as Dante, Mayerling, Manon, La Fille...

 

I attended the premiere on Friday and I think Untitled is one of McGregor most accomplished work for The Royal Ballet.

 

It is so cleverly made, the dancers are so wonderful, it is really a little masterpiece. 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by MAX

[bridiem]

On 10/06/2023 at 18:12, Emeralds said:

Crikey - he did mix up Benjamin Britten and Leonard Bernstein! (I have a device that somehow managed to get through the Telegraph paywall...not sure how!) Yikes.... Am v surprised nobody at the paper has noticed it. I thought they had proof readers and fact checkers. Maybe not any more..... (At least he noticed the costumes were detestable.)

 

I mentioned this error in the Comments section and it has now been corrected.

[Jan McNulty]

8 minutes ago, MAX said:

I have just read the comments about Wayne McGregor coming from those of you who are hoping that he will soon be replaced at The Royal Ballet.

 

As a frenchman, I don't think you understand how lucky your are to have such a repertoire and such choreographers.

 

The Paris Opera Ballet is forced to come to London to steal english ballets such as Dante, Mayerling, Manon, La Fille...

 

I attended the premiere on Friday and I think Untitled is one of McGregor most accomplished work for The Royal Ballet.

 

It is so cleverly made, the dancers are so wonderful, it is really a little masterpiece. 

 

 

 

That's given us much food for thought, thank you Max.

[Emeralds]

22 minutes ago, MAX said:

I have just read the comments about Wayne McGregor coming from those of you who are hoping that he will soon be replaced at The Royal Ballet.

 

As a frenchman, I don't think you understand how lucky your are to have such a repertoire and such choreographers.

 

The Paris Opera Ballet is forced to come to London to steal english ballets such as Dante, Mayerling, Manon, La Fille...

 

I attended the premiere on Friday and I think Untitled is one of McGregor most accomplished work for The Royal Ballet.

 

It is so cleverly made, the dancers are so wonderful, it is really a little masterpiece. 

 

 

I was going to say yesterday what MAX said today. Was going to say “We are very lucky to have McGregor- other companies would love to have him” but the usual reply to that is “Can they take him, then.....they can pay his salary and stage all his works” (or something like that) so I didn’t bother! I’ve also said before that McGregor’s works do bring in revenue for the RB in terms of copyright when companies acquire it, and sales of DVDs.

 

Of course, sometimes one objects to the use of the company and the ROH space as a “laboratory” for him to experiment- in an ideal world one would just see the grand successes like Woolf Works, Infra, Dante Project, etc and the failures wouldn’t be “taking up space” on our Main Stage. But all master creators had their failures- Ashton, Balanchine, Cranko, Robbins, MacMillan, Forsythe all have works that were performed once or twice and  didn’t turn out to be that great-but we don’t see those today; we just see the successes and masterpieces that are revived repeatedly and acquired by other companies and filmed, and imagine they must have created only successful works for their companies, MacMillan mentioned how hurtful negative criticism felt, and the others have responded in different ways to negative criticisms also.

 

Of course, whether or not a choreographer is genius or the work is a masterpiece, that doesn’t mean one has to like it. And it’s also quite ok if others don’t like one’s favourite work/choreographer/dancer- that makes it easier to find affordable tickets and good seats. 😉

 

It would also be more expensive for RB to acquire all their non-classical repertoire from other companies instead of creating their own, and McGregor working with the RB dancers does bring something positive that working with other choreographers doesn’t (NB I didn’t say he is better than everyone- I said he has something positive to offer that is unique to him.) 

 

Just to say to MAX, I assume you travelled from France to attend the triple bill - if so, thank you for coming! It’s lovely to hear that visitors from abroad have taken the trouble to travel to see dance here. Thank you for your feedback too. The phrase “to steal English ballets” made me smile ....I’m sure they paid all the fees but I know what you mean. 😊

 

The Paris Opera acquiring La Fille mal Gardee is a huge compliment to Ashton and the Royal Ballet as they still had their older, traditional production, from centuries ago, which is special that it still survives. I also thought they might commission their own version of Manon as the original story is by a French author and set in France, so it’s a huge compliment to MacMillan that they chose his version instead of making a new one. 

[candle]

Hello from a long-time lurker who has gratefully enjoyed and gained a lot through reading the forum in recent years, nervously breaking cover... 

 

I attended both the general rehearsal and opening night performance, watching from the amphi and stalls respectively. It is a considerable trip for me to make it to the ROH with travel and overnight stays necessary, so was a lovely opportunity for two viewings of the mixed bill. 

 

I really enjoyed Untitled, 2023. Might even say I was thrilled by it... I will provide the caveat that Wayne McGregor was actually the entrance point to my love for ballet (which has broadened into the classics after first being moved in ways I couldn't fathom by some of his choreography). I appreciate that's probably unusual and that confessing it may colour interpretations of my views, which is completely fair enough. 

 

Did Untitled make great strides in moving McGregor's work with the company somewhere new? Who am I to say, others will be much more knowledgeable; possibly not? But did it strongly bolster and enhance that body of work; for me, absolutely. Some of the reviews have used the word 'primal' and I get why. It was like strange (yet strangely familiar) lifeforms, being alive and experiencing it all. Like Dante, I felt it might have been aiming for big, subconscious, universal ideas and instincts and kind of got there. Thought the lighting, set and costumes worked superbly together, both from stalls and amphi, in different ways.  

 

The performances seemed universally strong. It's always exciting to see Melissa Hamilton in a leading role. Someone mentioned she wasn't wearing pointe shoes; I think she may have begun without but concluded with pointe work? I liked the arc and structure of the piece in the way the ensemble was used in the midst of the solos, PDDs etc. 

 

I've read with great interest the views on how McGregor works with music. Infra and Woolf Works have extremely special places in my heart, and Max Richter's music is a huge part of that, but I also have a slight sense that the music in those pieces is cannily working to unlock my gut emotional reactions and perhaps here and there comes close to overpowering the dance itself because of it. Perhaps weirdly, parts of McGregor's work I've enjoyed watching in silence, getting different responses from the choreography. With Untitled (although I did think there were sections where the dance reacted directly to the music), the more open and gradually shifting nature of the composition seemed to allow the music to almost become part of the set, part of the environment, and let the dance live within it.

 

Much as I adore Tchaikovsky et al., I did greatly enjoy the music. Though I listened to it beforehand and had already found it to my taste. I also loved the use of silence at the end of (one of?) Fumi's solo moments. The intensity and purity that came from just her, and us, together in silence. Similarly at the conclusion of the piece as well. 

 

Corybantic Games was a pleasure, the three simultaneous PDDs in the middle being particularly moving. I liked the changes made to the male costumes and somehow, perhaps through repeat viewing of the old recording, the straps largely faded into the background. These were my first viewings in person and I would relish seeing it again.  

 

Anastasia; Laura Morera as superb as expected, and I was more immersed and invested in the piece than I had expected to be. Can't wait for Manon next year. 

 

All round - a top drawer and thrilling bill that I'm still reflecting on and trying to stop the memories from fading. Hope to have the opportunity to experience Untitled, 2023 again at some stage either through revival or (here's hoping, along with last year's Ashton triple and DGV) streaming...

[annamk]

52 minutes ago, MAX said:

The Paris Opera Ballet is forced to come to London to steal english ballets such as Dante, Mayerling, Manon, La Fille...

it’s really not all so one way  ….

 

Crystal Pite created the outstanding Seasons Cannon (IMO way superior to Flight Pattern) and William Forsythe’s Blake Works 1 both of which I travelled to Paris to see. 

 

As for La Fille - we in London will have to go to Paris to see it next season since it has not been scheduled here for some years. And I can add to that Bayadere which I enjoyed at the Bastille last year. Balanchine seems to be revived more in Paris than London …. 
 

 

[Emeralds]

2 hours ago, KyleCheng said:

 

Unable to attend myself, I would love to hear some thoughts on this piece from folks who have seen the performance: do you agree? Just from reading the piece, I cannot quite see how the titular conclusion was drawn. I would think that one triple-bill is not enough to represent a company's competency in classicism.

I too read the article and wondered when the brickbats suggested by the title were coming. It was fairly long and not his usual scathing self, even if not wholeheartedly loving the programme! Perhaps the editor or subeditor added it for click bait effect.....they do sometimes do that on SlippedDisc if it’s a slow news day! 

[FionaM]

@candle thank you for your different perspective of the triple bill.  I shall now look forward to it with wider possibilities on Saturday.  

[Ian Macmillan]

Candle - thrice welcome ex tenebris.  May your flame burn brightly and often now that you have made a very considered first step.

[Emeralds]

Just changing the subject slightly, but I see that the ROH website, oddly, still doesn’t list the cast for Untitled 2023 or the dancer taking the role of Anna Andersen’s husband for the Osipova cast in Anastasia Act 3 on the booking page, so prospective patrons have to (if they know how) find the Cast Lists page to read the casts from Friday or Saturday in order to guess who might be dancing when they attend.

 

I see that David Donnelly danced the role of the Husband yesterday- I believe his debut? (Watson, Gartside and Whitehead danced the role at the previous revival of the full length version in 2016) Great to see this expressive dancer getting another opportunity in a leading role after his debut as Lensky a little while back. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Emeralds