CeliB

If you'd like to PM me I would be happy to give you a lot of info about training and working in Russia- my DS is currently dancing with the Bolshoi. It would be good to look at an ambition of dancing in Russia with a realistic idea of what that entails. I don't want to put all details on open forum as some of it is personal to my DS and perhaps not appropriate to share widely. I would say that Russia is not alone in liking taller dancers so it's not exactly your DSs only option - so he needs to think hard about what attracts him to dance in Russia beyond just being worried about getting a job elsewhere....

oops sorry I should have remembered that - I'm not very good at equating BCo and real names (and no doubt losing my marbles as I get older...) C

So pondering your post whilst I potter around my Sunday domestic chores and I think what is worth saying (amongst the good advice above) is: do you and, more importantly, your DD know what it is she is aiming for? Does she really want to pursue a career in ballet (or any kind of dance- and recall these 2 aims may require very different training) and thus want to know if she has the potential for this? Or does she just want to be the best recreational dancer she can be e.g. fulfil her potential to the best of her ability but not make dance her whole life? Or is she mainly a bit bored of doing the same class over and over again and frustrated with being in mixed ability and not really challenged (and believe me I understand this- as due to scheduling issues my DD ended up doing the same RAD grade 5 class for 3 years after having done grades 3 and 4 together in 6 months!). I get from your post above that ballet is not your comfort zone (and I've certainly got that t shirt) so I wonder if you/she have any idea what you might be letting yourself in for if she decides to 'take it further'? At 15 she would need to get up to speed REALLY fast to have a chance at vocational school at 6th form level. Most serious ballet dancers at 15 are doing upwards of 20-25 hours a week at vocational school and whilst it is possible to get into vocational school 6th form with less hours it is the minority who manage this (and would I think require a pretty ferocious level of innate talent). Clearly it's hard to answer these kinds of question without knowing what her potential is (it's a bit chicken and egg isnt it?), so I totally would encourage you to find someone who can give you a good evaluation. But it's worth starting to think about and discuss her the eventual aim at the same time so that you have some idea where to go with the outcome of the evaluation! I speak from experience, having been somewhat stunned when our DS decided to try out for summer school, went, was offered a full scholarship to vocational school and left home all in the space of 6 months. And at 15 she can't be hanging around too long before committing (if she wants to go for a career). Sorry - reading this back it sounds a bit doom laden - I don't mean to be, just warning you that if she steps on that roller coaster you need to be prepared to feel the G force!

In case you are in the Brighton/Sussex area I have to say DSs teacher (does classes in Brighton/Hassocks/Hurstpierpoint) has always been absolutely honest about dancers potential - and her assessment of DS's potential was pretty accurate (he made it to the Bolshoi after all). Other dancers she has assessed as having potential have gone on to get places at top vocational schools... She is very kind and encouraging and happy to teach anyone who wants to learn -my DD continued to take class with her up to leaving to go to med school despite knowing she had no expectation whatsoever of ballet other than a hobby, and she has a dedicated adult class too, so she isn't elitist, just very, very good at judging ability... Happy to forward her details...

To be honest there are always principal dancers who attract negative comments by people who think they aren't good enough and shouldn't have been promoted. I don't consider myself sufficiently qualified to judge but on the basis of his lovely character alone Xander deserves all the promotion he gets IMO. In his interactions with my DS he has been unfailingly warm, encouraging and kind - a true gentleman (in every sense of the phrase). He is a fabulous spokesperson for the art of ballet and his story is also a real success story to inspire those who may be struggling...

Depending on how adventurous she is and whether she has any leanings towards Russian style do consider Vaganova international program. The cost I would say is pretty competitive (all in for about 15,000 US dollars including board and meals and Russian language lessons) and the training really first rate. St Petersburg is a beautiful city and actually relatively small and easy to navigate (and in my experience surprisingly friendly). I know when DS was there they had an Australian boy older than your DD (I think maybe 23 ish?) who had been there for several years so they aren't all that concerned about age - they tend to tell them to stay until they are 'ready'. Under Tsiskaridze the training seems to be only improving in quality so no worries on that score. A couple of the boys went to Prix de Lausanne last year and did well. If you'd like any more details just ask. It may not be something she is interested in at all but I thought I would mention....

No he was perched on the balcony wall next to me (we had a joint ticket with a seat for me and a 'let this one in he's an honoured artist of the Bolshoi' designation for him- which wasn't quite honourable enough for a chair! but then the kind people in the next box ushered him into a spare seat with them, so all good ) It was nice for him to watch as an audience member (he doesn't often do this) and he says it does feel very different and makes him remember all over again just why he wants to be a dancer. Which is odd because you'd think being on stage would do that more - but perhaps when you are so young all you think about is not stuffing it up!!!

I was lucky enough to be in a box right next to the stage courtesy of DS whom I was visiting and having never seen Bayadere before (as I've said before I'm a total ballet newbie) I was actually blown away by the shades- found it hard to believe they could be bettered as they were so perfectly in time and elegant. After reading Dawnstars comment I looked at some YT clips of RB and have to say (I'm going to be controversial) thought RB corps were infinitely less impressive - certainly in terms of being in time with legs and arms at the same angles etc. Also didn't like their excessive bending over compared to the Bolshoi dancers who were more contained (and seemed to me therefore almost more ethereal). But perhaps its the difference between seeing live and seeing a recording or maybe just that difference in style (I honestly haven't seen much of RB and have really only seen ENB or mostly the Russian companies live so Russian style is my kind of benchmark). I agree there wasn't all that much chemistry between the leads, the children capering around in blackface were quite appalling, and I was particularly unimpressed with the bronze idol (maybe he was having an off day). Loved the 3 shades especially Shrainer though the conductor seemed to be rattling along too fast for her liquid movement (she has the same quality I noticed in Sarafanov when I was lucky enough to see him in the Madrid gala), and also really liked the soloist who danced with the little girls with flowers in her hair. Overall it was a great spectacle (and I had a very famous principal dancer and the conductors mother sitting behind me so felt in exalted company and therefore inclined to be easily please )...

That's interesting- the cabriole is just a standard jump but in these 2 clips they are doing a high single and not a double (which I think is what is usually in this variation). I found a clip of Chudin in the variation and he also does the high single. But equally I've seen Tissi do it as a double and DS has not particularly been instructed to do cabrioles 'Bolshoi style' (and he was taught by Tsiskaridze) so maybe there's variation even at the Bolshoi... I personally think Ovcharenko looks incredibly elegant in this variation....

on the other hand it does note in this article one of the female dancers squat lifting 100kg so maybe that's not so unusual!!! https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/jul/15/raising-the-barre-how-science-is-saving-ballet-dancers

Actually plenty of the female dancers weigh more than 50 kg though probably not much more than 60 (don't forget muscle is heavier than fat so even lean dancers might be quite heavy if they are reasonably tall). My DSs first partner was 5.6 and weighed 60 kilos... Though my DS would say it's not the weight that matters as much as the dancer- some 'help' the lifts by springing up themselves, while others (he says, and you can see it) are like lifting a bag of spuds. You only have to compare with the experience (those of us who are parents and grandparents rather than male dancers!) of lifting up small children - some seem to almost fly into your arms whereas other are dead weights - and it's not related to size. As for the gym weights question - for squats and deadlifts- the goal is to lifting own body weight (for my DS who is 6.1 this is 72kg), for bench press or shoulder press the goal is to lift approx partners weight (55-60 kilos). So probably not 100kg unless you are super keen!!!

Just as a side note we were told categorically that our DS at 13.5 needed to be in FT ballet school in order to reach his full potential.... he started therefore at only just 14 somewhat against our better judgement in terms of family/social/education but trusting the teacher's opinion and hoping we could make the rest of it work.... He considered that he remained behind his peers at least until 19 and might (I haven't asked him recently) consider even now he would be better had he started earlier... At 14 he was probably doing around 20-25 hours a week (including rehearsals and other forms of dance although these were a relatively small proportion of the training...)

a little vote for grishko performance canvas split soles. DS particularly likes the elastic in the arch which keeps it snug for those with high arches... and although a bit pricier they are incredibly hard wearing compared to the cheaper shoes (so for example he would go through a capezio canvas shoe in a month, but the grishkos lasted him a term or more). until he got tor stage of getting his shoes supplied the company he never wore anything else.. just dance stock grishkos...

BBC news link just popped up on my facebook feed Fabulous to get this coverage - onwards and upwards I hope... x https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45941597/a-mother-s-campaign-for-autism-care-equality-for-all

agree with Lily_883 - I watched my son do developpe a la seconde in centre of room both unsupported and supported (holding the foot up). He completely raised his knee to his max height with his foot still pointing down and THEN extended his calf and foot up. Apparently the size of the difference between the height achieved when supported and unsupported indicates whether there is a discrepancy in strength Vs flexibility. So if you can raise your leg high whilst holding it but not on its own this would indicate your limiting factor is lack of strength, and if both measurements are low this would mean your limiting factor is lack of flexibility. Obviously supported is bound to be a bit better but just as an indicator DS's angle between standing leg and raised leg was 28 degrees more when supported and this was evaluated as 'no problems identified'... Does that help at all?

Well, and my apologies if I inadvertently fuelled the fire by commenting further... I'm really astonished that anyone would get so aggressive over something so trivial - but as you commented Harwel this says more about the state of mind of this person than anything to do with the conversation we were having - and s(he) is clearly to be pitied. That said, I would feel quite uncomfortable if this vitriol had been directed at me, no matter how absurd and deranged it was, so sending my sympathy...

errm without wanting to fuel the fire actually I think this is probably exactly right (as far as the Russian companies go). My DSs experience of the Bolshoi and Vaganova Academy is that they are extremely old fashioned - he does have access to a medical centre and can get an instant MRI etc but he hasn't really managed to access any kind of rehab advice or treatment (in over a year of being in the company and he's never once managed to see the masseur or physio as they are never available outside his rehearsal schedule, and whilst at the Vaganova pretty much his only advice when injured was to rest until it got better). As a result of reading this article: https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/jul/15/raising-the-barre-how-science-is-saving-ballet-dancers plus some advice from DrDance I arranged for him to be assessed by the dance scientists at Laban and it was a complete eye opener- I don't think there's anything as ground breaking as this going on in the Russian companies. Interestingly one of the key pieces of advice from the physio exactly mirrored a piece of Tsiskaridze's teaching, which shows that those with a brilliant understanding may be able to pass on that knowledge, but Tsiskaridze is really exceptional in DS's experience. The point is that clearly someone who is made it to the top using this kind of regime clearly has the physique that can cope with that. But if scientific research can show a better method, with proven outcomes (look at the injury reduction they quote- it's very impressive) doesn't it behold us all to embrace it? Sorry for a long post, but there is no excuse for avoiding evidence. Otherwise we would still be living in the dark ages. Ballet is no exception.

This is brilliant advice - when DS almost gave up ballet after a horrible experience I was lucky enough to find a great therapist who just had a couple of sessions with him to help him think through his decision and this was one of the key things he did. It was instrumental in DS taking up his place at the Vaganova, and the rest (as they say.....) etc

To be fair its worth mentioning only because there has been a lot of press about London terrorist attacks because the USA's (insert preferred adjective) POTUS likes to make scathing attacks on Sadiq Khan and the state of London as a hotbed of terrorism and danger. So someone relocating from USA could have a very skewed idea about what happens in London or how little attention most Londoners pay to this comparatively minor threat. So worth discussing simply to reassure... Agree that most of what you need to know is just common sense advice on managing London transport and the general advice on safety for young women travelling around a big city alone (which is no different here than anywhere else). And another vote for the London Russian Ballet School from DS.

Totally agree with Pups_mum... our rule has always been that if the fees have been paid with the agreement of the child, then they see the term out (with the aforementioned caveats re bullying etc). All my 4 have had to endure one or other class of something they stopped really enjoying because they had asked for the classes and I had paid. I think it did teach them to think a bit harder before asking to join a class on a whim.. As for the overall question about keeping her interest I guess its worth a conversation to try and unpick what exactly she doesn't like about it. But ultimately you may have to accept that it just isn't what she wants, no matter how talented she may be. My younger son has been evaluated as being possibly more physically talented than eldest who is dancing at the Bolshoi (by the teacher who initially inspired DS1 to become the dancer he is now - the wonderful Judy Breen, whose judgement I trust absolutely) but after 2 years of ballet he gave up because he just didn't want to do it. My youngest daughter has (according to DS1) a ballet physique and feet to die for but after a term of ballet aged 7 pronounced that ballet is too 'sweaty' and has never again put a ballet shoe on. Thems the breaks I guess...

It seems like small fry compared to the successes of many, but DS2 (who is no longer dancing so perhaps the D is now Darling not Dancing!) has just got his GCSE results, and exceeded our expectations. Not by getting a zillion 9s or A* but by actually overcoming 3 years of immense psychological difficulties and going on to sit through every exam and pass enough to go forward to 6th form college. I think I cried just as much and with the same level of joy as when DS1 got offered his contract at the Bolshoi. Off to celebrate!

DS has pretty wide feet and always found the best fit and look for him was grishko widest fitring split sole canvas I *think* style 6 but it might be 5 that are split sorry we haven't bought them in a while as he got a sack of shoes donated to him by tsiskaridze who still gets his hand made by the bolshoi shoe dept and is same size and similar arch to DS (it was like the best ever Christmas present!!)....but talking of arch I think these are particularly good if you have a big arch which DS does have. Also not always easy to source tho I am pretty sure just dance stocks them? Have to say it's a real joy when they join a company and have shoes supplied. ... must be even.more.wonderful for parents of girls- ouch the cost of point shoes!!!

Thanks so much for the recommendations, I will pass them.on to DD. .much appreciated...

Thanks Millie3 there is a dance society with one ballet class she will try but I think she'd like to have other options in case it isn't the right level for her... so its nice to get a feel of what's available...

Hi balletcoers My DD is off to.medical school in Sheffield in Sept and is very keen to find an adult ballet class. She has been doing ballet since age 3, more recently Vaganova but don't think she's overly fussed, and is very keen to find a friendly local class that isn't at too advanced (the adult vaganova class she's been doing works more on strength and getting good basics than the more flashy moves so for example she wouldn't be able to do double pirouettes). Any suggestions would be very gratefully received. Many thanks 😊