CeliB

I'm afraid yes it's all online- most ballet shops I've ever been in have a limited selection for small boys and that's about it. The very best site I have found is Porselli- (https://dancewear.co.uk/) they have a good range for boys/men and very fast delivery (usually within 24hrs, but if you need it urgently do ring and check as if it's not in stock they don't tell you, they just wait for it to arrive...). They stock bloch, capezio, wearmoi, sansha etc and they also do great sales (eg ballet flats for £2). The only thing they don't stock is Grishko shoes and mens dance tops ( if they prefer them to leotards). Grishkos you can get at PlanetDancedirect.com but they are much slower delivery, fitted t shirts at dancedirect.com again not as fast or cheap as Porselli but a reasonable range Hope this helps!

Hope it was fun! My DS sometimes dances with his old teacher here in Sussex in her adult class- there are a real mixture of people of all shapes sizes and levels of ability from a terrifying brilliant lady who must be knocking 70 to a young(ish) chap who is shorter than me and built like a rugby player- I always think that what is so inspiring about the class is how much they are enjoying it!!

so you mean something more than just full soles? I have wondered what is behind the split sole/ full sole debate and now it appears there is a third option! how even more confusing! should I be worried if DS is wearing split soles at 14? (not that I imagine I have any say at all in the matter....)

This may be a stupid question (as I am a complete ignoramus where the technicals of ballet is concerned) but if girls use soft blocks to strengthen their feet, what do boys do? Or do boys not have the same need for strength because they don't do pointe? Or perhaps don't tend to have big arches so problems are not so severe? As mother of a DS with naturally high arches I am curious. I am pretty sure he mentioned borrowing the girls pointe shoes to practise with sometimes but not sure if this is just him being daft... NB normally he uses split sole ballet shoes so I am wondering whether this is perhaps not very good for him? Thanks for info....

Apologies if this is off ballet a bit but I wanted to add that my younger brother (now 24) spent most of his teenage years locked in his bedroom on internet fantasy gaming sites. Funnily enough he now has several friends around the country he met on said sites who he goes to visit regularly. He has a first class hon degreee and is doing a law conversion with one of the top London firms and is very socially successful. I think it is in the nature of teenage boys to lock themselves away in their bedrooms doing something solitary. My DS spends most of his spare time when not dancing on the XBox.... There is a brilliant book about teenagers called 'Get Out of My Life: But First take Me and Alex Into Town' which I found a huge help in understanding the teenage condition (and this is useful for all of us with tricky teenagers whether dancing or not). I am not usually a great fan of self help books but this one is a gem... I also agree with twinkeltoes that whatever your decision it is much better to make it together before talking to your daughter- it would make life unbearable if she is able to play one of you off against the other (something children aquire a skill for at an early age!!!) Good luck xx

Checked with DS last night and in fact its a 3 hr class- with academics either side and partnering 3 evenings (6pm, one hour) and sat (one hour), then 1 hour 'study hall' (though actually he gets more like 3-4 hrs homework at his speed of work). Saturday afternoon and Sunday all day are free. They don't do any dance other than ballet at his age....

Good luck Primrose, hope you have a wonderful time. Our most recent visit to see DS perform was SO reassuring- it makes a real difference to see them on 'home turf' and get a sense of the camaraderie and support they have from their peers and teachers- felt so much happier about him being there. Am sure you you have a similar experience. Will you get to see DD perform? Good luck to her from us x

DS at vocational school at 14 yrs (UK school year 10) does 2 and a half hours ballet class 6 days a week plus 3 nights a week a 1 hour partnering class. Whilst I agree quality is crucial surely there is a point at which quantity is also important? E.g. even with the most amazing potential and the best teacher in the world no-one would make professional standard if they only did one hour class a week? I know DS's friend who is 16 and not at vocational school does a 1-1.5 hour ballet class 6 days a week. She got through to the finals of Elmhurst, RBS and others (didn't hear if she got places in the end as I only see her occasionally when DS is home) so evidently this was sufficient to get to a pretty impressive standard (to my ignorant eye she is a beautiful dancer but I realise I know v little!)....

We had the decision when DS was a bit older (but only 13 and boys can sometimes seem less mature than girls)- luckily the financial side wasn't too much of a problem because fo a big scholarship but the emotional side was for us- no dancers ever in either side of the family so a huge leap of faith (plus DS has gone to another continent) and he is our eldest so a real shock to lose him. In the end what swayed our decision was the idea that he could always stop and come home if he didn't like it, with not too much lost (a bit of schooling which can always be caught up) but we couldnt bear the thought of him applying at 16 for 6th form places, not being good enough, and believing it was because he hadn't taken the opportunity at 13. The teacher who offered the scholarship basically said- 'he will be a dancer whatever you do- it is up to you whether he has the chance to be the best dancer he is capable of (world class soloist) or is just a good dancer in a provincial company or the corps of a bigger company'. Of course there are no certainties in this world so it is not like we think he is en route to stardom, but whatever happens he has had the chance to try for what he wanted to do more than anything else in the world. So far he is very happy, and although I cried almost continuously for a week after he first went, I can see for him it was the right thing- this is his life and he has a right to have a say in how he spends it. We are very close (thanks to facebook and skype- honestly the person who invented skype should win a nobel prize for services to humanity) and you would be surprised how much you still feel a parent despite the distance (doing 'math' homework at 11.30 pm doesn't stop just because of a 5 1/2 hr time difference!!!). So yes it's very very hard and there were a feasible alternative we'd all have taken it. But for us it (so far) has definitely worked out. I have to say I also had lots of supportive positive comments from people on this forum which helped me immensely to feel I wasn't completely insane to consider vocational school. Plus my sister (who I expected to be very anti as she is quite protective of her children) was brilliant- she said that if to be a great dancer you really have to start early then that's just a different sort of life - and there are many parts of the world and times in history where children have had to be adults at a young age and have coped perfectly well. In some ways what an amazing and wonderful opportunity.... Children are more resilient than we think. As long as they always know there is no stigma or failure to them changing their mind if they don't like it then I felt they should give it a go.....

oh yes- sorry I perhaps should have made more clear that I don't agree with an ethic of shouting at children or putting them into a position where they are too terrified of failure to flourish- which I think is one of the points made in the article. It's a really difficult balance though between 'pushing' to establish a strong work ethic given how hard children have to work and commit in order to make it in the dance world, and sending them over the edge into nervous collapse! And having to justify state funding by your success rate makes this even harder. I suppose I was pointing out that however hard the assessing procedure seems at RBS perhaps it is a lot less brutal than in other places- where 'success' is high but failure even more so.... Anyway DS seems to have developed an incredibly strong work ethic in only 6 months without any shouting or fear of assessing out so evidently it is possible.... and even if he doesn't make it at least he will have had a pleasant life whilst trying!

An interesting non RBS perspective- my DS was taught for a while by a Latvian dancer living in the UK who went to vocational school I think in Russia- she told me that of the 26 who started with her at age 11 ish only 3 graduated the school- she was one of them and is no longer dancing (i didn't ask her why). So perhaps we arent all that bad! I often think that the assumption that Russia produces the best ballet dancers in the world should be evaluated whilst taking into account how many applicants they have (size of population/desire to find a job which confers high status etc must affect this), the attrition rate (is it higher than UK?) and what actually happens to those who fall out (eg chance for dance related careers etc)? Interestingly the Russian teacher who teaches my DS in washington says he can't teach in the West in the same way they would in Russia as he would be thrown out for brutality (I remember also in the ENB documentary the Russian soloist recalling being shouted at until his ears hurt and considering this as completely normal). DS teacher says in the west kids just don't want/need to succeed as desperately so can't be driven as hard. The issue of assessing out is really thorny- Kirov, where DS is, doesnt assess out but of course they are private and don't have to justify government grants like RBS does. The advantage is that dancers have the possibility of going through rough patches without being instantly turfed out, the disadvantage perhaps for the school is that their 'success' rate is lower (though I don't get the impression this is a problem for them). But I do notice how caring and supportive the school feels- almost like a company- there is real camaraderie and no sense of competition for places (they know who the 'stars' are but don't seem to resent eachother or feel anxious if it isn't them). I have heard tthat the atmosphere at RBS is very different (but have no personal experience so can't really expound on hearsay). I do however find the idea that children can be assessed out 6 months after beginning school quite disturbing- I can see they may decide to leave if they don't like it but if genuinely assessed out after getting through an audition process of 2000 for 12 places? One has to wonder what is wrong with their audition process....

but isnt that the whole point of the Guardian article posted on another thread e.g. that many of the great dancers of this century wouldn't have been given places at RBS (and other vocational schools around the world) in the current climate because of the trend to value uniformity of physique and extremety of flexibility/technique over artistry and expression? As a complete novice to the ballet world the thing that struck me most powerfully when I saw DS's school winter performance was that amongst the boys (who I was clearly more interested in!) the one who stood out by miles was the one with the most beautiful expressive dancing- there were others who were technically more proficient but had all the presence of a corpse- and made me feel I was watching acrobats, not dancers. This seemed so clear to me as an audience member I am astounded that those who train our children and run the companies don't seem to have the same sensibility....

Unfortunately being a relative newbie to the ballet world I'm not well qualified to answer that question (and I'm sure there are many on this forum who are)- I get the impression that styles of teaching in USA are quite varied- Kirov is the only Russian accredited/affiliated but I believe Harid is Vaganova based as well? SAB has a reputation for being particularly 'Balanchine' (although he was a choeographer not a teacher I think what is meant is a style of training that favours the ability to do Balanchine type choreography). I get the impression that most UK schools follow RAD syllabus and certainly the Russian teachers I have spoken to are extremely dismissive of this (compared say with Paris Opera teaching which I guess is more akin to Russian). After conversation with DS and he with his peers, their opinion of RBS is 'very good feet but appalling hands and arms'. His stated experience of UK teachers and style was that the teaching was much 'weaker' (again his words not mine so please don't shout at me ballet people!!!) and less precise. Also combinations were less complex. Can't say much more than that without drifting into unsubstantiated speculation!

Fascinating thread. Feel I should add my DS to the head count- he is studying in the USA at the Kirov Academy of Washington DC. He's on a 100% artistic scholarship, for board and academics we undertake a means test based on income and outgoings (spending on our other 3 children is included as legitimate outgoings). All in all once we include flights for him back and forth and for us to attend 2 performances a year I think out overall costs are about what they would be if we sent him to White Lodge (of course I don't assume he would get a place!). He was only just 14 when he started at Kirov (last sept- some of you may remember me culling advice from all balletco-ers on what to do!) so it was a real wrench for us to make this decision. So far we feel it was the right thing for him. He has just done his ballet exam (they don't assess out but I assume the scholarships may vary depending on the outcome) and received an A grade and been offered another 100% artistic scholarship for next year. He didn't want to apply to White Lodge as he is wedded to Vaganova training (he has tried both). He has had to cope with leaving home and with a completely different academic system, as well as breaking his foot at Christmas (NOT a ballet injury though- a teenage stupidity one!) and despite this I have been astounded by the change in his ability in 6 months. He seems to have physically grown 2 years (not just height but musculature, stature, attitude), his ability to be responsible for himself and his work ethic and commitment are all extraordinary. Above all he is very very happy. Of course it's early days and we have always said to him he is there only because he wants to be- we have never pushed him and have no agenda for him to be a dancer (he's the only one ever in either side of the family) and he knows if he changed his mind we would adapt and sort it out. It's far too early to know how it will all turn out but so far so good.... (he got accepted to RBS seniors summer school despite being under 15 at the time of the SS so they must see some merit in him too). Anyone interested can see pic of his ballet exam at http://www.paologalli.net/KirovAcademy2011-12/Ballet-Exams/21970748_6sQxMB#!i=1752466366&k=8Zj9Mr6- DS is second from the left... consider he has been FT vocational for effectively 15 weeks (once injury and illness is taken into account) and prior to this he only did 4-6 hours a week....

if we wanted to make a voluntary contribution could you tell us how (practically- and I would definitely vote for paypal), and what is the kind of order of magnitude you need (eg if only 10% of users paid, how much would they each have to pay to keep it going for a year)... if we have even a vague idea how much is needed we can contribute accordingly!

Ha ha, yes well there were nightmarish elements about it for us but I think partly due to having a boy and living a long way away. I think if you have a girl, live relatively locally and are not too easily wound up it provides some brilliant training at potentially v low cost....

my DS had severe ingrowing toenail whilst at SI in USA and they took him to the Dr and simply cut the nail off under local anaesthetic- this is apparently how they deal with all such nail problems as it leads to much faster healing (can just then stick a padded plaster over it)- possibly could consider this as it may make her auditions less painful!

Hi, my son went there on and off for around a year before being offered a full scholarship at Kirov Academy in Washington. I think the training there can be excellent, but a few caveats (just so you know what you are getting into!). On the positive side training is Russian (great if you like it), high standard (as evinced by their results) and they offer large fee discounts if your child is considered talented and is offered training aimed at achieving professional level. Also they have contacts at Bolshoi if you would like to consider that option. On the negative side they are very dismissive of all other forms of training than Russian and will go so far as to wash their hands of you if you consider any kind of english training (eg RBS associates), they have very few boys (can be hard as a boy not to have a cohort especially if they are relatively young- my DS was 12/13 and only one other boy there of the same age/standard who wouldn't speak to him as he didn't like having competition for the position of 'best boy'), they show a singular lack of understanding of the logistics of having a family (wanted DS to be there daily despite a 2 and a half hour commute each way and 3 younger siblings to manage), they are organisationally chaotic (never publish their term times, often don't answer phone or email etc) and lastly I would say that in terms of training (now I have seen the set up at Kirov) the studios are extremely small- so very hard to learn/practise big jumps and combinations. I know they have plans to expand so maybe this will change. That said if you live in London and can manage all the classes alongside normal school this is a good alternative to vocational school. Didn't work for us because of the distance and the lack of a boy cohort, which I do think is important for motivation and camaraderie. NB I should say a friend of DS who still trains with our local (Vaganova trained) teacher also attends a teacher in London who is Russian and is apparently fantastic- I could find out the details if you are interested...

We struggled with getting enough classes for my DS because his teacher only had a limited number at his level, but she was completely open to alternatives (and indeed helped us research them and did a lot of the contacting of other teachers on our behalf). In fact she encouraged him so strongly to take the best route for him that she now only teaches him occasionally in the school holidays when he is home from vocational school- yet she is overjoyed at his progress. My DDs school (where she goes for enjoyment with no intention of taking it as a career) have encouraged her to do additional classes and stretch herself by taking more advanced classes, and have suggested my younger DS apply for associates classes at RBS. I would seriously question how good a teacher or school is if they don't encourage students to reach their potential by whatever means. Especially since it is common that a local school just doesnt run enough classes for someone aspiring to dance as a career- otherwise what would be the point of vocational school! Or am I being naive? I have never heard of these kinds of rules about taking classes elsewhere..... Even more I would question the professionalism of someone who makes negative comments about a student to other schools or teachers. Perhaps if you can tell the forum roughly where you are there are members of the board who could recommend a teacher/school and you could consider a complete change...?

lots in the USA. some even pay for flights as well as tuition and board (I know of someone who went to SAB on a full scholarship including travel expenses) , but of course you need to do an audition DVD which is a bit painful unless you are a whiz with filming and editing (doesn't have to be super quality but different SIs ask for slightly different exercises so it can be quite a job of work to do a dvd for each application.....). We did DVD auditions for Kirov, Bolshoi, ABT and Houston so can offer advice if it helps....

I would really miss it if it went- am happy to pay a fee if that helps as long as it isn't a massive amount!

we got a full refund for turning them down before they had sent out acceptances (after applying DS was accepted at one of his other prefered choices)- not sure whether they refund after acceptance but certainly they are very quick at replying to emails as I recall, so why not ask them... it's a perfectly reasonable question - if you can't afford to attend without a scholarship you certainly can't afford to lose £200.....

I asked a friend of my DS who attended RBS SS a few years ago what it was like- he said he got the strong impression it was a feeder for full time places at the school (almost to the detriment of the course itself). That's only one person's impression but perhaps worth considering...

My DS's application was for the juniors at White Lodge (he will be 14 and 11 months at the time of SS) and then received an email asking if he would be willing to be considered for the Covent Garden SS. Said yes and he has been offered a place which we have accepted. Down side is he jumped off a wall on Sat evening whilst out messing around with mates (teenage boys- a law unto themselves) and has fractured three metatarsals on his right foot. The day before he was due to fly back to school. Grrr. There goes the flight money, and his training for the next 2 months. Hopefully he will be fit by July though..... To add- he has never been a JA or MA at RBS...