CeliB

I would second all the helpful advice here in dealing with your poor DDs 'black dog' but just wondered if the fundamental problem derives primarily from her being told she won't make it as a ballet dancer due to her weight. Quite apart from the collective inbreath of horror from all on this forum that anyone should say such a thing it occurs to me that in applying to only Tring both you and she have effectively believed this teacher (sorry I don't mean to disparage Tring for ballet but I get the impression that had you been considering ballet primarily you would have also applied elsewhere). Maybe you might consider that not only is the teacher evidently old school and shockingly insensitive but quite possibly entirely wrong about your DDs potential and hence has held her back from applying to other schools where she might be able to get funding. I don't know which country you are in but the acceptible norm for dancers' height and weight does vary culturally and even from company to company. I do remember being shocked at the part in the film 'La Danse' where the AD of the POB comments that a new corps dancer is looking 'so much better' as she had lost even more weight (she was like a stick to start with), and I get the impression that POB, for example, is particulary inflexible on the height/weight range. There is plenty of evidence of dancers being told they would never make it due to some reason or another who went on to be very successful. And many who got turned down by one big name ballet school and then accepted by another who went on to be principal dancers. At very least I would get a few more opinions... Good luck with it all....

As far I have ever been able to tell ballet flats are unisex, the only difference being the colour, fabric and size (doubt any boys would ever wear pink or satin!!). I know some websites advertise shoes as men's or women's but I can't see any difference other than in the range of sizes offered.Perhaps justballet might have a view given the experience in ordering ballet shoes?! My 15 yr old DS favours black canvas split soles and has done since he was 12. Sansha and capezio are both reasonably priced. I think sansha come in width fittings which is useful for the wider foot. He had one pair of grishkos which I thought looked more sturdy (the canvas was thicker and had a slight sheen as if it had been treated) but in fact he wore them into holes in less than a term so they didn't last any better than the sanshas and he didn't think they were any better in any other way (though they were almost twice the price!). Also they came up narrow- not so good for his feet (though they stretched after a few days use). The huge advantage of canvas over leather is they can be chucked into the washing machine (vital if dancing 4 or more hrs a day otherwise they are not pleasant to live with- DS brought an unwashed pair home in his suitcase last holiday and we nearly passed out when he opened it...) There is a split sole/fullsole debate which centres around the strength of the foot/arch. DS's Russian teachers all insist on split sole, DS has unusually high arches for a boy and very strong feet so perhaps he is just lucky that split soles are ok for him- my understanding is that full soles work the foot/arch harder so are good when the dancer is younger/needs to work on this more (but others on this forum are far more ballet knowledgable so perhaps can explain reasoning better). Hope this helps, good luck!

my DS didn't have any difficulty adjusting to RAD at RBS- he just didn't like it! interestingly, having been very anti-Balanchine previously (he maintained he would be rubbish at it) he is now doing a Balanchine ballet for a performance, being taught by John Clifford who danced with Balanchine himself, and is loving it. So perhaps the ability to adjust to different styles is partly to do with dance maturity? Out of interest Taxi4ballet do you mean Legat at St Bede's? If so, and this means your friend is anywhere near Brighton I can wholeheartedly recommend DS's Vaganova teacher who is Brighton based (after 18 months of teaching DS once or twice a week he was accepted into Kirov Washington on a full scholarship.....)

Am so pleased to hear the good news- well done to her, but most of all to you for keeping your faith in her so well she didn't lose faith in herself.... All these lovely DCs who are achieving success are only doing so because they have wonderful parents supporting them through thick and thin- and if they don't go on to a career in dance their wonderful parents support them to find another niche whilst also maintaining their self esteem. It's a hard, hard job and I am constantly encouraged by everyone on this forum who consistently does it so well and shares their skills with us all. Thank you one and all!!!

Gosh Fiz how sad- and I find it hard to believe that you could be written off at 10 for having missed the boat- Patrician Zhou who went to DSs school didn't join vocational school until 14 (prior to that she had a minimal hour or so a week for fun) went on to win the prix de lausanne at 17, spent an apprentice year at royal and is now with stuttgart ballet... you may never had made it to be the best dancer in the known universe but a career in ballet must surely still have been possible? I suppose my feeling for my dcs (and non dcs) is a to adopt the same prinicipal as 'better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all'- how can you ever know what 'might have been' unless you give it a go? picturesinthefirelight these decisions are always so hard and we make the decision that seems right with the evidence available at the time so don't beat yorself up about it- if you fel it might have been wrong then the best thing to do is move on and use that feeling to inform the decision about whether to give it a go in later years. My impression is that unless you are wanting to be a purely classical ballet dancer (which doesn't sound like what you or your dd are thinking of) there is really no need to be in vocational school at 11 so you/she have plenty of time to think about what she really wants.... good luck with whatever you decide...

for those on the wait list- my DS did turn down a place at RBS SS the year before last, so it isn't a complete impossibility!

I have to order DS's shoes online cos he's in washington so never around to try them out - but he wears split sole canvas.. however I always get sansha or capezio from porselli using their recommended shoe size equivalents to a UK shoe size and they have always been correct....

I have to put a vote in for the lovely bicycle... I voluntarily cycle a 26 mile round trip 3 days a week (could easily do it on the train) because I cannot bear to be unfit and with 4 children using my work commute is the only time I can claw out of the daily routine. I love the headspace, freedom and contact with the elements. cycling is fabulous cardio exercise-my DS who trains 25 plus hours a week admits he is not cardiovascularly fit so dance doesn't cover it all! (btw I only learnt to drive 6 yrs ago and I still prefer the bike- do yourself and the environment a favour - and if you aren't trying to make dance a profession then who cares if the 2 aren't wholly compatible- be an all rounder)

My DS has been doing partnering since he joined his vocational school at 14; lifting started a little later when he had been at the school about 6 months and by this I mean more like assisted jumps (e.g. so the girl was about 2ft above his head height briefly) plus he did 'fish dive' after one year. This year he has been doing bigger lifts (e.g. he learnt one of the sleeping beauty pas de deux) including carrying his partner at shoulder height for a distance. As well as normal class he does gym weight training to strengthen arms and upper back about 3-5 times a week (I'm not sure exactly what but could easily find out if you want to know). He is currently 15 1/2 and 5 foot 10 1/2 inches. He says he has never had (so far touch wood) any back pain associated with doing lifts... Prior to vocational school he hadn't done any pas de deux at all (and not much ballet either really!).

As an interesting related statistic I was talking to someone who trained at a prestigious ex soviet block ballet school (I honestly can't remember which) and she told me that of 26 students who entered the school at 11 years old only 6 graduated at 17/18.....

of course I have just thought of option 4) which is: suppose that in 20 countries there are 40 international standard classical ballet schools generating around 800 students at age 16. Assume therefore 80 are in the top 10% for ability. If a third of them decide to apply to RBS because it has such a great reputation, that's 25 or so applying. At the lower school, assuming there are 40 16 year olds, there will be 4 who are in the same top 10%. So you can easily how the Upper School places go to international students. You can fiddle with the numbers a bit (I have no idea in truth how many ballet schools there are and how many apply to RBS and whether only the really top tier ones apply or all sorts!) but if you look at the figures like this then the lower school looks actually pretty good if around half the school get places. Apologies about all the numbers (you can tell I do statistics as part of my job!)

I think the key question is here is not 'why aren't the British students given priority at RBS upper school' but more 'why, having come through 5 years of full time training in the specific method/style the RB/RBS US want to see, aren't more of the RBS lower school better able to compete with their international peers'. To me this is the 6 million dollar question!! I don't think anyone is suggesting that RBS should practise positive discrimination, it's more a query about the teaching quality at the lower school. I have often wondered about this because amongst the (mainly Russian) teachers who have taught DS the general opinion of RBS lower school is not that high (sorry if this annoys people and I don't say I agree as I have a huge degree of ignorance of the general ballet world). But because the upper school does take so many international students (who have had the majority of their training elsewhere) I do think the RBS rep for high employment after upper school is harder to interpret.... Logically there seem to me to be 3 possible explanations: 1) UK is a small place and simply can't produce all that many internationally competitive dancers (and never has done); 2) RBS lower school teaching is currently out of step with the type/style of dancer favoured by upper school and RB company; 3) RBS lower school teaching is just not up to the job so only the most extraordinary talented youngsters stand out when it gets to US level... Of course there are many examples of students going through White Lodge to US to RB, but the issue here is why aren't there more. I really don't know the answer but I do think there is very little information available with which to judge this objectively (it would be pretty easy to analyse the data but it isn't made public)........ By the way when I was desperately canvassing opinion about the merits of sending DS abroad for vocational training at 13 the vast majority of people on this site who responded were extremely positive about the concept of going abroad and how to cope with it- in huge contrast to the USA ballet forum where most people said we should take the stay at home option. So I don't think UK parents are all that inflexible when it comes to thinking about international training....

My DS is training in the US at a vaganova school and I have always been quite impressed by the absence of the scarey stringy looking dancer type amongst the girls. The only one I can think of who is exceptionally thin is genuinely naturally so (she is a close friend of DS so he knows this for definite). You can see a good selection of school performances at http://www.youtube.com/user/KirovAcademyDC so can see for yourself a lot of the girls are quite stocky and muscly... all the teachers are Russian, many trained at the vaganova school but clearly they aren't insisting on the underweight profile- all the messages we get from the school via newsletters re nutrition talk about the necessary food needed for muscle strength and stamina... As far as I am aware the majority of concerns with the boys focus on how tall they will be, as there is a general assumption that to be a leading man you need to be taller than your partner (who is of course on pointe) so as not to look daft. Though of course you can always find exceptions...I personally think the boys get rather forgotten in the nutrition debate- i know my DS struggles with eating enough both in quantity and frequency. I have to send him protein bars to supplement his meals as the school just doesn't make it easy enough for him to snack inbetween academic and ballet classes... I also agree re parents profile- DH and I come from completely different genetic types- he is a shortish and very stocky 5' 8", my family are all tall and lean (I am 5' 7", older sister 5' 8", younger brother 6') except for my younger sister who is only 5' 4". DS takes after my younger brother (DS is about 5' 11" at 15 yrs old). How would evaluation of me and DH given any clue as to who DS would take after?!

A couple of years back we applied for RBS and Yorkshire (for which you have to pay a hefty deposit) among others. Then when DS got a place at RBS we immediately called Yorkshire and they were kind enough to refund our deposit (they hadn't even cashed the cheque so just sent it back). So that's probably worth knowing if you were considering them as one of your options....

Hi, this is only hearsay but when I was researching ABT via the US ballet forum I got the distinct impression that the ABT SI's varied in prestige according to location with NY being the one that was considered the most top flight and consequently most difficult to get in to. Of course it is also the one that doesn't have accommodation so that limits it to older student IMO (unless you have the luxury of being able to take a 3 week break to NY just to accompany your DK!)... Of course this doesn't mean the teaching varies and we don't have direct experience- but I really would recommend looking at the US forum it is a mine of useful information.... (dancers.invisionzone.com/)

and who's to say that standard school education with all it's cultural cliques and academic only expectations isn't just as narrow... yes for some kids it can be a rounded and enriching experience but if you don't fit the system it can be a horrific torture. My DS, being mildly dyslexic and severely dyscalculic but very bright (so not qualifying for an educational support) drifted along as an average student, fairly ok but in a difficult, snipey social cohort so was frequently sad and upset and not pushed to achieve in any way. In vocational school he is mature, independant, with a loving close and nurturing group of students and staff, having amazing experiences (dancing at the Russian embassy in Washington, flying all over the world on his own, staying with a friend for an American Thanksgiving etc etc), absolutely loving his dancing and even being pushed academically because it is such a small school... we miss him, but the positive rewards for us are also huge... he stays in touch with his mates at home and one of them is the son of my best friend so i know exactly what he would be doing at the moment were he still in his old school. I honestly don't think he would be having a richer or broader education if he had stayed at at home, and that's even before you put the loss of his potential career into the equation....

Hmm. I have some sympathy with the issue of whether the end result meets the dancers aspirations (in terms of whether you can get a job, what your roles are like etc) but I don't think the life in vocational school described by this article bears much relation to the experience of my DS, who rang me excitedly for a 5 min chat last night to say he didn't have time to skype later as he had rehearsal for a show, then partnering, then an hour to practise guitar as he and a teacher were accompanying a fellow student who was going to sing at the school valentine party that evening.... oh and only went to vocational school at 14 after begging us on bended knee to let him go... I can't help feeling that the key factor here (and why this article is less relevant to western Europe and the States) is that most of our children are doing ballet because they passionately want to (by and large we parents are the slightly unwilling but resigned support team) and we constantly strive to show them that if their career doesn't turn out the way they hoped there are other avenues/careers/ ways to have a great life. Ballet for us isn't an instant ticket to fame, stardom and riches as it used to be in the USSR (and in China- has anyone seen Mao's Last Dancer?!) and certainly the impression I get from all parents on this site is that our DKs are following THEIR dream, not ours.

We have found (and been advised) regular icepacks and neurofen - good at getting any inflammation down and this often allows the affected part to heal by itself. But you have to persist for at least 24 -36 hours (not just do it once and then think that'll do the trick).... But it kind of depends on what is causing the soreness. In my experience (it's a family trait so have a LOT of experience) ingrowing toenails which are becoming infected often look perfectly normal for quite a long time so this is a possibility- did she pull a hangnail at all? (the most common cause). But agree with Jane, anything that persists for more than a day or so should prompt expert evaluation- you can't afford to hang around when they are dancing at this level...

Depending on what your DKs age and ambitions this may or may not be relevant but we saw Easter and Summer schools as a chance for DS (who was coming 'late to the party' as it were) to evaluate whether he really would consider a career in ballet or even attending a vocational school- I think it's hard for children who have been doing one or 2 lessons a week after school to really get a sense of what it's like to live and breathe ballet all day every day and to work so consistently over longer periods. Long holiday courses do give a flavour of this... (although of course you have to beware of them then thinking vocational school is one big dance plus fun extravaganza- it's easy to forget the added pressure of academics!).

I have to say that whilst I agree with everyone who says one must be realistic about ballet as a career I have much sympathy for discouraged- after all surely if you have been consistently encouraged to believe your child has the potential to be a professional (as evinced by doing well in exams, associates places etc) you are right to wonder what's going on when you don't even pass the first round at 16. It's not as if she is complaining that her DD didn't make principal at RBS is it? One would hope that the succession of teachers who have given this impression have some degree of knowledge/competence, otherwise what's the point of them? In almost every other field of endeavour qualifications and accolades received along the way have real meaning and generally do act as predictors of future success. Sometimes it feels like ballet is pure guess work right up until the point you are suddenly Darcy Bussell or equivalent....(and probably even then you worry in case you suddenly stuff it up and get the sack)!!!

I have to say this isn't what I've been told on numerous occasions (although I personally know zip about it so am relying on the ballet teachers we have spoken to being right....). Obviously 100 hours of lessons that are all totally rubbish won't get you far, but it's a balance isn't it? Surely if you could get to the same standard with 6 hours a week (plus or minus one or 2 more private) no-one would bother with vocational school and the 25-30 hours they do there? I know we were categorically told that if DS left it to much later than 14 he would have 'missed the boat' - not that he would never be any good or never be a dancer but he definitely wouldn't achieve his full potential. And I always thought this was even more the case for girls as boys can get away with leaving it a bit later..... I know there are always cases of individuals making it from a non vocational route but if you drill those stories down often you find they did do huge numbers of hours, they just had a single teacher 'on tap' (think Daniil Simkins mother for example!). With those who start late etc- yes maybe they do still make it, but maybe that's because they were in the top 0.0001% of people with exceptionally high potential, and if they had studied vocationally may have been even better! Sorry if this makes me sound depressing or negative about non vocational routes, perhaps it's just that we are suffering so much with the loss of our beloved son that I feel have to justify our decision.....so slap me down if you think I'm talking nonsense!

in terms of schools abroad our experience in the US is that vocational training is much more expensive than the UK and similar to the cost quoted for Canada (I think you can see this in the cost of summer schools which is also much higher) but there seems to be greater scope for scholarships which are awarded purely on artistic merit. At DS's school there is also means testing for the remainder of the fees (e.g. board and academics) and the needs/costs of the whole family are taken into account in this. I also know someone offered a place post 16 who was allowed to not do (or pay for) any academics as there isn't much point at this stage trying to fit into a high school system (perhaps you could do a few A levels by correspondence if you wanted to?). An interesting parallel is that the mother of DS's (non dancing) best friend at home is looking at universities abroad for exactly this reason- apparently you can go to university in Amsterdam for a fraction of what it costs in the UK and it's one of the top Universities in the world.... (and let's face it what student wouldn't want to go to Amsterdam- it's about the coolest place on the planet!!!). The cost of education across the board in the UK in ballet or anything else is simply depressing beyond measure...

Hi, have just had a reply from DS who says they did a ballet class for about 2 hrs in the morning, the rest of the day was the other stuff. Hope this helps!

Hi Afab, no he didn't apply to POB. He is doing the first Kirov summer session and then plans to do classes at home with his old teacher supplemented by his own stretching and gym regime...and rest a lot...!

Hi, am trying to sift through the paperwork from last year, havent got all of it (am sure DS shed bits along the way) but this is what I can find school day classes are 9.30-11, 11.30-1, 2.15-3.30, 3.45-5 (breaks in between) there are 2 classes on the first sat, the rest of the weekend is free. the final sat is a half day as there is a performance. classes included classical ballet, contemporary, character, body conditioning, repertoire, jazz, musical theatre (and pointe and partnering as appropriate) I see from DS's class list that 7 out of 26 were from the UK. He said the majority were foreign. The summer school is BIG there were at least 4 boys groups of about 15 students, and I think more groups of girls. Groups were on the basis of age largely as far as I could tell... according to DS standard was mixed- he said most had a lot of potential but he didn't think all were particularly technically advanced. pastoral care was exceptionally good. I know others on the forum have said their DKs loved the school, my DS was less impressed but then he's very wedded to russian training so perhaps not surprising. hope this helps, any more questions I can help with let me know! Oh and finally, he got his acceptance letter Jan 3rd- have just found it! edited for typos!