CeliB

oh yes, sorry I think you are right, they do say they take class in the week into account but it doesn't appear to count towards much (at least that was the impression the chair of the jury gave DS- it was the performance that was 'make or break')...

I agree with allthebest2all - one boy from DS's school who did PDL the year before had been practicing the same classical variation for around 2 years. And lots of the attendees were veterans of the competition circuit and had performed said variation on stage numerous times. DS decided which classical variation and started practicing about 3 weeks beforehand and didn't even learn the contemporary until the week before, and he really was in the minority in this respect... BUT the really great thing about PDL Vs other competitions or auditions is that the company scouts (ADs or whoever attends) watch numerous classes throughout the week, so although the competition prizes are solely based on the 'on the day' performance the offers made by the various companies/schools are not. That was our experience anyway.

well if it is, it's still a pointless question IMO- both my boys are built to dance (although one doesn't want to) but my daughter is built like a rugby player. If parental physique was such a predictor of child physique we'd all be identical for ever....That's the wonders of genetics folks! And if it's a socio economic question to sniff out those with the cash to pay for full time school I find that even less justifiable (cash over talent?)

they are czech! sorry should have said so the point is stay local or go abroad- the usual difficult decision about distance vs quality....

HI all, I have been asked by DH on behalf of a work colleague to ask if anyone has knowledge or experience of Czech national ballet school. His DS is 12 and a very promising dancer; he wants to train in Russia (Vaganova method) but really is too young at the moment (his parents couldn't be in Moscow with him as they are both in film and there are other children too, and Vaganova only takes from 16). They are concerned Czech school doesn't have a male teacher (I am surprised but will ask more) and are not sure if it is a good enough standard to teach him up to 16 (like we were at the same stage they are total ballet newbies ) . If anyone knows anything I would be really grateful. I know its a long shot... Thanks Celi

I think if you consider the number of company ADs there it works out a LOT cheaper than individual auditions...and they all get to watch numerous classes as well as performances, so the competitors get much more exposure than just a single audition packed full of people. I think its pretty good value when you consider it like that. And that's even before you consider the expert teaching and chance to mix with peers all working at a very high standard...

June 2017, as he elected to stay the extra year (akin to a third 6th form year I guess). But last year the graduate class mostly got offers from exam time (Easter ish) as all the top directors (well Russian anyway) come and watch the exam classes... Also the director apparently speaks to all of the students to ask where their preferred company is and then starts the dialogue with those company directors- it does seem like the students are given every possible assistance to get a contract. Of course they are primarily linked with Russian companies but they do also have good contacts in Germany. Anyway DS would consider it the greatest moment of his life if he got offered a contract with a Russian company. He looks pretty much set to stay there...

We have reached the scary realms of company auditions. Although at Vagaova it seems that directors approach students after attending performances/exams - in the last graduating year of boys I believe almost all all got company contracts at one of the big Russia companies (mariinsky/bolshoi/mikhailovsky) without any kind of formal audition... Still pretty nerve wracking- it just lasts all through the whole year!!!!

Well there was only one application from Russia so I'm not sure you could read too much into this!

In case anyone would like to watch it the Vaganova Prix was live streamed on Russian TV and is still available to watch https://mariinsky.tv/e It is followed by a gala concert of the Fairy Dolls performed by Academy students on the Mariinsky stage. Fairy Dolls is especially nice for children to watch (set in a toy shop, not too long) (p.s. DS is the sad clown- comes on at around 2.15)

you can buy a display mannequin on ebay for less than a tenner- also useful to have the hanger as can sometimes be easier to fiddle around a costume if its hung up.. e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-QUALITY-HALF-HANGING-FEMALE-MANNEQUIN-TORSO-BODY-FORM-DISPLAY-BUST-/261328228477?var=&hash=item3cd860507d:m:mpXQwrVG2zW0Vf_F1EzjQag

Well it seems the reputation the Russians have for shouting is not undeserved- DS had a hilarious experience the other day when the younger boys teacher (by reputation the scariest teacher in the school) marched his class into DS's (whilst they were warming up ) screamed at his 12 year olds to stand at the barre, screamed at DS to go to the barre, yelled 'TENDU' and when DS complied he pointed at DS's foot (with his big wooden stick- I kid you not) and screamed at the 12 year olds 'SEE, SEE- THAT'S WHAT YOUR FOOT SHOULD LOOK LIKE' and then marched his class back out without another word. DS was completely made up. Now all the little boys bow when they see him in the corridor. But seriously, I have not come across ballet teacher shouting in the UK at all. Compared to football, rugby and even swimming (the screamiest by far) ballet teachers are positive pussy cats

Kirov Academy in Washington DC. DS went on 50% scholarship first ever SI, and 100% scholarship in subsequent SIs in 2014 San Francisco Ballet offered him 100% scholarship (including 100% bed and board) Ellison Ballet offered him 100% teaching scholarship (not including bed and board) Dutch National Ballet Academy offered him 100% artistic scholarship (not including bed and board) So yes lots of places abroad have scholarships available. Of course once you pay for travel and sometimes bed and board in the end the cost is still pretty ferocious (especially New York OMG even now I blanch to think of how much DS spent...). But Dutch NBA isn't so bad for travel or living costs..

I think this is completely unprofessional actually. 2 of my DKs attended a local school on and off over over 3-4 years- it is a good school which has sent several children to White Lodge but in the event both children (DD and DS2) eventually switched to DS1's Vaganova teacher as they preferred her. However they didn't both leave at the same time so I did have one at the old school after one had already left there to join the Vaganova classes. I didn't inform the school I was moving to another teacher- just gave notice re the next term's classes. No one ever asked me the reason. They knew DS1 had a different local teacher and in later years when he was back from vocational school in the holidays once or twice let him come and do a class with his sister just for the interest/fun, and were all really really lovely to him. By the way DS1 Vaganova teacher was instrumental in getting him sent off to vocational ballet school when she felt he needed more teaching than she could provide (no sense of ownership there). As far as I am concerned, you are paying for a service. If it no longer suits, you give notice and leave. If they are a good school they should have sufficient demand that the loss of one child makes no difference to their business (as long as agreed notice periods have been respected). If the school is so petty as to exclude your little girl at the age of 4 for something her sister wants to do aged 12 you are better off elsewhere anyway (however upsetting the move is). So sorry to hear about this, how unpleasant.

I agree with the above - a break is a really good idea. I was so nervous about DS taking summers off that I more or less persuaded him to do a summer intensive every year- in retrospect I would say only half of these or less had any real value (and some only because he had such fun being e.g. in New York), Not because the training was poor quality, just because he would have done better with a complete break. Because the summer break in the USA is so long he still ended up with about 5 weeks completely free and even then I used to get anxious he should be stretching etc, but he was totally determined to do nothing but laze around and have a normal life with his friends (he is very very lucky to have maintained a close friendship with one of the boys he was at school with here until 14 and so had instant access into a great friendship group). I know one of DS's friends at vocational school never took a single summer intensive (her parents couldn't fund it) and it didn't seem to do her any harm (she got a contract with prestigious European junior company at the age of 16 and with the parent company at 17). I think at 13 it won't be a career ending decision if she drops back a bit (my DS didn't even START intensive training until 14, although I am aware its a bit different for boys) - and if she then decides to go back to the intensity of vocational level training at least you will know it is her decision and not just an inability to work out how to get off the treadmill. I often think some DKs who have trained intensively from a young age go on to vocational training simply because its the only thing they've ever known, and it takes massive strength of character to step back and decide you really aren't sure this is what you want. I would see your daughter's doubts as evidence not just of being a bit overwhelmed, but of a really impressive, questioning mind and ability to express her doubts that this is the right path for her. And she certainly won't be able to make that big decision if she's feeling low and exhausted. So whatever happens it sounds like a break to clear her head and regain some energy is a good idea. Also it may be completely left of field but when my DS had a big crisis about continuing vocational training I arranged a couple of sessions with a counsellor, so he could talk through how he was feeling with someone neutral. I know he found it hard to talk to us as he felt so guilty about how much we'd invested in his training and how sad we would be if he gave up (no matter how neutral you try and be you really aren't!). I could see he was having a hard time trying to organise in his head why he was unhappy (was it ballet overall, recent events, wanting a normal life etc etc) that it really helped having an experienced person to bounce his ideas off. Only 2 sessions but the best money I ever spent. So perhaps keep this in your back pocket for if it's needed later on... And be kind to yourself. It's hard to see your child in distress and sometimes you just want it all to go back to how it was before because they were happy at that point. But a crisis for her will also be a bit of a crisis for you because its so difficult and distressing to steer them through it. So give yourself some space and time to think too....

I agree LinMM, especially when written by a dance teacher, it sounds just a little bit threatening ('don't expect to get away with letting your face relax into neutral, you must have a pleasant expression at all times OR ELSE the ballet police will immediately mark you out as an uncommitted slacker thus ending your chance of a career instantly'....) (!)

protein bars. in bulk. though maybe this is a boy thing?! lots and lots of chocolate (American chocolate is terrible- having Green and Blacks definitely made him the most popular person in school!)

Also worth keeping in mind that Russian ballet method is a little different when taught in Russia than when taught in other countries- not the pedagogy but certainly the stamina and strength required (my DS had 4 years in a Vaganova school in the USA taught by Russian teachers who graduated from the Vaganova in St Petersburg- he still found the classes in St P markedly more strenuous). Having witnessed a class there I can honestly say I've never seen work so intensive and unrelenting. If you are interested in seeing what it looks like there is quite a lot of footage on youtube of exam classes for both the Bolshoi and the Vaganova. If you are looking at post 16 you would need to look at levels 6 or 7.

probably a personal thing but I know DS much prefers the cotton/lycra tights (like the intermezzo pantaplie) to the more shiny lycra ones, at least for day to day class. He generally only favours the shiny type for performance. In our experience Porselli is one of the better online stockists for variety of mens dance wear...

I completely empathise with the worry. Even though DS has been consistently (with one notable, almost career, ending exception) been told he has everything he needs to make it as a professional I have still worried continuously that we have done/are doing the right thing in supporting this career pathway. It is probably only in the last 6 months because he is astonishingly happy and the feedback is so extraordinary that I have started to let the worry go (a little). When I compare this with my daughter who had 6 years (age 6-12) as an elite high board diver it feels to me (looking back at the decisions) that we had a gut instinct for when the training wasn't working - she wasn't enjoying it, she wasn't keeping up with her peers, just had gone a bit 'off the boil' if you know what I mean. Most significantly when we tentatively suggested it was time to call it a day her response was 'thank goodness, I really wanted to give up but was worried you would be upset'. 6 years later she still talks of her time with nostalgia and is completely aware of the skills it gave her in terms of independence, application, camaraderie with a team etc (all the sorts of things that go with ballet too) but doesn't regret stopping. With DS he only had 1 wobble in the last 5 years. Otherwise even when he has not been 100% happy in his vocational school (for various reasons) he has not really considered giving up ballet itself. I honestly think that if he genuinely wanted to we would be able to tell the difference. As long as you are realistic with your DD about the chances of success (and it sounds as if you are being exactly as 'honest-while-supportive' as you can be) and she is happy, and you can afford for her to carry on (in time and money) that is the best you can do. Quite honestly even if you could get a dance teacher to give you a 100% certainty of her future it would still only be the opinion of one person, and as I have learned there may always be one person out there who thinks your DK is totally useless, lazy and talentless (exact quote), so perhaps its just as well most teachers are kinder and less certain...!

Just to add my twopennyworth: My DS was turned down for RBS associates twice as a youngster, but at 14 with almost no training he he was offered a full scholarship to a vocational school abroad. At Lausanne the ONLY school/company there who didn't tick the box to interview him was RBS - everyone else there offered him a place of some kind at their school/company. He went to Amsterdam because the the junior company director loved him but once he got there it was apparent the Academy Director didn't and told him straight out there was no chance of him making it professionally (that's a long and distressing story in itself). However a month later he was accepted to the Vaganova Academy in Russia after literally 2 minutes of an audition class (he turned up late because they gave him the wrong time, missed barre and had to go straight to centre, did one jump and got a 'yes'!). He has this year been the only international student to get a solo in the Russian Graduation performance and is one of only a handful of students (Russian included) to get the highest mark achievable in all 4 ballet exams (after only 4 months of being there). So I would add that ballet is an international occupation with many, many schools and companies looking for very many different attributes. Don't take the first opinion as gospel even if the person giving it has a reputation of being knowledgeable. If she continues to be wedded to classical ballet have a think about other countries/companies where she may be a better fit (even those students with so called perfect bodies will have to consider going abroad- there simply aren't enough places in the UK anyway). So long as you are not following the dream to anyone's detriment (e.g. you can afford the training in time and money and your DD is happy) I see no reason at all not to keep going and see what happens. Good luck

Gosh Lisa that sounds tough, but good news about the grant... In answer to the original question I find it hard to imagine anyone who could defend the position that good dancers AREN'T priced out of the running if they come from lower income families. I would take it one further and say even exceptional dancers might well never make it if they come from low income families- after all there are plenty of households in the UK who wouldn't be able to afford a single ballet lesson- and even if vocational schools try and award places on raw potential rather than current skill/technique, in order to know about and even want to audition a child would have had to attend some lessons and be able to travel to an audition and have the requisite clothing. Of course as posters above have suggested there are ways to shop around, be judicious with the opportunities that are available and so on. But I can honestly say that my DS could never have taken up the opportunities he has been offered without masses of financial support (100% scholarships and evaluations of 'exceptionally talented' notwithstanding). But honestly this is why we as a society should fund the arts, sports and other forms of education (both elite and non elite). Unfortunately the 'haves' are in charge at the moment and not interested in furthering opportunities for the 'have nots'...

totally agree with everyone who talked about strength of feet and calves. DS started doing rising exercises regularly and his jumps improved massively. He says the jump comes completely from the foot and calf and not really from the depth of the plie/thigh strength. of course that assumes same for boys as for girls... and I add he started this at 16 not at 8 (he didn't even start ballet until he was 10!!)

My daughter and her friend stayed in a hotel in Vienna unaccompanied when they were 16. DH was filming there but then unfortunately had to then be back in the UK the very week she went to visit him. The hotel were fine as long as an adult signed them in and gave a contact number (one of DH's colleagues kindly did this). So you may be fine as long as you check her in at the beginning - why not call one of the hotels and ask? Premier Inn helpline are really good....

I don't think being a type A or B means you are all identical to others of your type- after all there are only 2 personality types in that particular lexicon so clearly we don't all fit into an exact either/or identikit personality. As a classic type A I recognise many of the traits described, but am also regularly described as empathetic, kind, helpful etc... type A is more about the internal battle you wage with yourself than how you interact with others I would say... In some ways I am surprised that dancers are more commonly type A and survive such a gruelling competitive environment. I personally feel my DS's personality is much more resilient (once he bestirs himself to get out of bed, that is).... I would have thought a type A would be far more likely yes to achieve highly but also to crash and burn more easily... edited to add ...tho having glanced at your references I'm not terribly convinced about the evidence presented (I guess there must be more out there than you've posted?) a lot of the studies quoted seem to be looking at personality traits of dancers AFTER they have achieved a certain level- can't help wondering if they started out with those traits or whether those traits were the ones selectively enhanced and reinforced by the nature of the training.... I *think* there is evidence that whilst the fundamental personality doesn't change, personality traits do change in response to to external factors... not my field though so I'm not an expert..