CeliB

There is a caveat to this which is that some other ballet schools round the world are not necessarily so selective and may not assess students out- esp if they don't have any state funding and thus need to make ends meet. For example, at my DSs school students would self select out if they felt they didnt want to do ballet any more or had been told they really wouldn't make it as a professional dancer, but they wouldnt be asked to leave if they wanted to stay. So the school doesn't have a 100% rate of graduate dance contracts- I don't think you can use this to suggest that their teaching isn't up to scratch...(and by the way they have pretty amazing university entrance stats considering the students do a limited curriculum- several to Berkely/Harvard/med school that I am aware of in the last couple of years) Also I have said before and would still maintain that RB upper school has many many students who did their core training (11-16) elsewhere. Who then is respoinsible for that graduate's success on graduation? RB or the original school? How many of those graduate contracts are to dancers who have been at RB since age 11? I'm not implying that RBs teaching ISNT good, just that the graduate contracts don't tell the whole story....

I agree with comments above: in my opinion this is like almost every aspect of human endeavour- everyone is born somewhere on a continuum at one end of which is no inherant ability and the other end is exceptional inherant ability. All can be taught and can improve but probably only to a certain extent (how far being dependant on the quality of teaching and the level of application of the individual to the task). I personally believe this is as true for artistic expression as it is for physical suitability. So whilst I am sure with training and willpower I could become a far better runner than I am today, I would never expect to make the olympic team (ok I know this is now because I am too old, but even if I wasnt!!). My Mum is tone deaf- she could probably be taught to play an instrument but try she ever so hard she could never become a concert musician. My DS has always had natural musicality. He is always exactly on the beat and moves as if the music was moving through his very bones. My daughter is a competant dancer but simply doesnt do this- and she's been dancing for about 7 years longer. No doubt she is better than if she'd never danced, but she'll never get close to what DS has....

ah, this news honestly brought a tear to my eye.... well done indeed and here's hoping the most wonderful time for you there x

My brother, who is an army officer, was most disappointed to discover Bloch booties don't come in larger sizes (DS is lucky that he has small feet for his height!)- if Bro' could have fitted DSs pair I can guarantee he'd have put an order in....

I think I would too. But happily I'm not wearing it!!!

Plus, in reference to the original debate, i don't think anyone is implying that there is anything wrong with Russian training (you would have to be pretty mad to say that when Russia has produced some the worlds greatest ballet dancers), just commenting on the advisability of learning one specific method if you want to get a job at a company that trains and dances primarily in another....not is it a criticism of RB- one could as easily say there's not much chance of a corps job at New York City Ballet if you haven't done Balanchine training. Its more of an observation about potentially having to choose your training method according to your desired career...

DS gets his (well, obviously I get them for him....) at porselli (https://dancewear.co.uk/products/details&prodid=767) he hasn't mentioned a seam anywhere unmentionable so can only assume these are ok?! re rollers- DS also uses a larger foam roller for rolling out muscles. its a right pain to fit in a suitcase (light, but very bulky....) though his most recent one is hollow so can be stuffed with socks, and other smalls such as....... dance belts! (It's all starting to come together ...)

ha ha yes the dance belt issue. I am just glad I don't ever have to wear such a monstrously uncomfortable looking item. But then many women wear thongs (I shudder) so no different really. I remember seeing in the Guardian weekend fashions section YEARS ago an issue on cashmere which included..... wait for it...... a pair of cashmere knickers! with a price tag in the several hundreds of pounds. Wool knickers? are they joking? sounds positively medieval.... It put me off saturday guardian for years I was so appalled..... (for those who want to know about DBs wear moi seems to be the favoured brand- in black)

Oh I'm so sorry Primrose if it feels that way. I agree he is a lovely dancer. I think it is more that this thread overlaps with the thread discussing different styles being more or less acceptable in different companies, and the fact that Julian has a Prix apprenticeship at RB NOT being proof against a possible bias against Russian training in british companies (should it even exist, it was more of a discussion than a truth!). Not meant to be negative towards him personally at all, just pointing out that him going to RB doesn't really prove anything in respect of that debate. I was actually pondering what happened to Patricia Zhou and recall someone I know saw her dance at RB with the company and thought she clearly stood out- in their opinion as being exceptionally good - but of course it then occurred to me that as a ballet company you don't really want a member of the corps to stand out- its all about having a uniform and clean similarity of dancers. Perhaps where the men are concerned this is less of an issue because (in my very limited knowledge of ballet) they don't seem to be quite so constrained to a certain physical norm of height for example. So perhaps having a slightly different style of training will be less of an issue. I hope he has a great time at RB- and if he does get a permanent contract as a result then even better. I am all in favour of diversity in training style, looks, height and all the rest of it!

you think the girls are bad.... my DS goes around in the MOST bizARRE collection of weird and wonderful clothing which a normal teenage boy would faint with horror to be seen in. T shirts with the arms ripped off, onesies which are so voluminous he looks like a clown (yes we do mock him), bloch booties in electric blue, strange headscarf arrangements, - yes the one leg warmer has also been seen. If I ever express surprise he just looks at me pityingly and says'm a dancer Mum, this is what we wear...'

This is what happened to Patricia Zhou who was the top (I think) prizewinner at Lausanne (came from DSs school so Vaganova trained)- she wasn't offered a contract after her apprenticeship year at RB and is now with Staatsballet Berlin....

We don't have experience of the new vocational upper school but our experiences at London Russian tie in with those quoted above. DS attended classes there for a couple of terms. They wanted him to go there exclusively and offered that he could stay there (before they had formal accomodation) and suggested we arrange private academics for him so he could then attend all their classes. For a while he stayed overnight with the 2 other teachers who lived in so he could do friday and saturday classes without having to travel all the way home to Sussex inbetween, but the arrangement was (like the rest of the school) somewhat chaotic. He would turn up to find the room he had been allocated was full of performance clothes so he had no bed to sleep in, there was never any food unless he went alone to sainsbury's and the teachers he was with stayed up all night watching unsuitable (for DS) films and then stayed in bed until class at midday leaving DS wandering around like a spare part. Classes would be cancelled or times changed at short notice etc. We decided against DS attending as there were simply not enough other boys (or anyone) training at his level, and we thought the whole arrangement was not well thought out. Also our experience of the general chaos was not very comforting. As for the classes, he did like the male teachers but the senior mens teacher was (I thought) quite a prima donna and didn't even give us lowly parents the time of day. The manager/headmistress of the school was endlessly and viciously scathing about all english dance training (including the Royal) which I didnt think was terribly professional, and there seemed to be frequent fallings out between staff and students, resulting in students being removed. After DS decided to go to vocational school elsewhere they seemed willing to maintain friendly relations (although having offered DS free classes up to that point they then suddenly presented us with a huge bill so we had to renegotiate that). We asked if DS could come to some classes whilst home in the vacation and were told he would be welcome. He then attended on one occasion and was welcomed with warmth and open arms by the manager/headmistress. However the next day we received an email from her sayingt the senior teachr had said he should not attend any more. No explanation, just a really brutally bald email, and no further response to our reply querying what the problem was. So. I guess our general feeling was the classes are well taught, but everything else is just insanely unprofessional and chaotic. I don't honestly know if they have become more organised but this was only 4 years ago so if the same people are there I find it difficult to believe they have completely changed.... I know however some people on this forum have DKs there and have been very positive, perhaps they might also comment.

We somehow ended up talking about period problems yesterday in the pub when DS disclosed that when he was rehearsing Paquita PDD his partner started her period unexpectedly - only discovered when he bench lifted her and got (in his word) 'leaked on'......so he had a gory face and she was mortified. The mixed gender, mixed age group round the table concluded that of the 2 of them she'd had a far worse experience and I was rather proud that he seemed to take it in his stride and was quite relaxed about it (I imagine if he'd been at all horrified he wouldn't have told the story...). All the assorted teenagers present were definitiely in sympathy (rather than any kind of revulsion). Discussion then moved on to our collective anger at VAT on sanitary products and so on.... I was encouraged by all of the youngsters very open, pro feminist attitude....

Lovely news SP- my DS had a fabulous time when he went to NY for Ellison Ballet. Have you looked at the USA version of this forum for advice and reviews on Joffrey? (http://dancers.invisionzone.com/) - to see the SI pages you have to register but its easy enough. It might be worth looking at this as certainly we got caught short in a few areas when we sent DS to NY- for example no one told us the self catering residence didn't have ANY kitchen equipment, so DS had to go out and buy all his own plates, cups, pots and pans- which he then had to leave there (he donated them to charity in the end) as no room in his suitcase to bring home. As he was in Manhatten you can imagine the cost! Not to want to put a downer on your trip but the costs for DS of travel and eating were astronomically more than we expected. Even basic groceries to cook for yourself are expensive because its central NY.... Bear in mind you can buy a lot of stuff on amazon USA if you have a UK account and have it delivered; this might reduce some costs. Make sure you order at least a week in advance though as the US post can be a bit slow. And check if the residence expects you to provide your own bedding (this is surprisingly common given the international nature of these SIs). If there is a meal plan I would definitely take advantage of it. Even if you miss a few meals to eat out with friends it would probably be worth it... Hope you have a wonderful, wonderful time, and are not put off by my warning (I only advise in case it helps you to be forearmed!).

I take your point about numbers- but this is not asking for a 20 page essay- a few lines perhaps. Or they could have a system where preliminary auditionees dont get feedback but surely they could manage feedback for those who make it to finals at very least? Also not giving feedback because its too cruel? I'm not sure I agree that the answer is not to get any feedback at all. Years ago patients weren't allowed to see their medical notes and Dr's wrote all sorts of horrible subjective comments about their patients which adversely impacted on the way other clinicans treated them. Now they don't because they know the notes are publically visible. Perhaps audition panels could be trusted/expected to be capable of giving feedback in ways that don't include comments like 'you are simply too fat and ugly to ever be a dancer'. And maybe if they knew they had to justfiy their decision a bit more carefully they would be a bit more careful about making that decision.... Yes there is sometimes a situation where they have 20 places for 24 students, but even a gut instinct decision can be justified if you think it through. And maybe auditionees would like to know how close it was and that the differences were only minor, as this could have a very positive impact. As for taking criticism as a reason to give up, well we all have to deal with criticism in life through any job we do, as well as in school from a very young age, and deal with not being as able in academic/arts or sporting areas as we might have liked. And we have to learn to use the constructive criticism to improve our work, and try not to take unconstructive criticism too much to heart. This is a life skill for everyone, not just dancers. I do understand and sympathise with what you are saying hfbrew, I just personally feel the risk is outweighed by the benefit...

I have to say (with no vested interest as my DS already has the place he wants and has never applied to any UK schools) that if schools and companies had to adhere to employment law or an equivalent (in the way public service organisations do, and with the same level of transparency) it would save a great deal of heartache and stress. And not because decisions would necessarily be challenged- we can all appreciate that companies and schools experience change in who they already have and who they need to appoint achieve a balance (in the same way that most organisations have a mix of different skill sets in their departments), but there's no reason at all why this should be kept such a big secret... Also given that people are often charged quite a lot of money to attend these auditions it wouldn't hurt to provide a reasonable amount of feedback (one assumes the decision making committee has to sit and discuss and then record their discussions- why not make a summary of this discussion available to the applicant? if you apply for a job you are allowed to ask to see your interview documentation, and always get feedback...). In most other areas appointment processes have become transparent and recorded precisely to avoid systematic bias (eg ageism, sexism, racism) and to try and make the system more fair. Why should dance be able to remain shrouded in mystery? Many of the schools and companies have access to public funding, maybe they should be more answerable to the public who are funding them!

My DS didn't start seriously doing extra stretching (or in fact anything at all other than laze around) in the holidays until he was around 16!!! I used to despair. Now he seems to have an unbelievable work ethic and is not only spending extra time in the studio and gym but also reading ballet books and biographies voraciously. I think they find their own way. I know there's a balance to be had (if you are paying for an activity you want them to get the best out of it) but at 7 I would err on the side of tolerance....

So sorry to hear of another setback, hope she continues to improve. It must be particularly hard not knowing the cause. I am amazed that you keep it together enough to think that ranting on the forum is something you should apologise for! And that you have the strength to even type coherent sentences. All my thoughts and good wishes to you and your family. xx

I must say I am a little uncomfortable with the interpretation of the photos that a teacher is 'yanking' a child's leg up. From a still photo you can have no idea that this is what is happening- the little girl in question isn't grimacing in pain, she has her standing leg slightly bent to reduce the difficulty and whilst looking a little bemused she does has a small smile her face. Perhaps she is just naturally flexible! Further down there is a pic of a little girl with her foot at a right angle (obviously as far as she could get it) and no one seems to be forcing it higher. I think the assessors would be really upset that people are thinking that's what they are doing... Also yes, some of the kids look a bit glum- maybe they were bored from waiting around for a long process? And a few of them are skipping along looking radiantly happy yet no-one is interpreting SAB as clearly a super wonderful place as a result of those particular pictures... It's only a few photos- I showed them to my daughter and she thought they all looked really sweet....

Yes I was never totally convinced about the anti Russian stance but heard it from several different quarters, so thought I would mention. Also I would think any differences in training must become less evident once dancers have been in other companies for a while anyway. And there are always exceptions to any rule.... edited to add- I do know that Patricia Zhou went to RB as an apprentice after taking first prize at Lausanne, but wasn't offered a contract after the apprentice year- she was Vaganova trained ... but thats a sample of one so not very statistically significant!

There was a lot of interesting discussion on the USA ballet forum a while back about switching between different teaching styles. I think the general consensus was that it is difficult to switch back and forth between different pedagogies when you are at an early stage in your training because when you are relatively new to ballet you need the constant reptition to get the movements 'right' and get them hard wired into your brain. So going from one type of ballet to another might mean you don't master either very well. Once you are more assured in your discipline you can take on board the different nuances of different styles more easily. Certainly that was my DS's experience- early in his training he really hated contemporary and other classical styles (Balanchine for example) as he found them very hard to connect with, and was adamant he would never be any good at them. A few years down the line he adores both. So perhaps this is partly what the commenter meant? From another perspective, I have been told personally multiple times that UK dance companies don't like Russian trained dancers (at the junior level anyway - clearly they are perfectly happy to have guest principals) and that by letting DS train Vaganova we were reducing his chance of getting a job in the UK. But to be honest the dance world is so global (and he is more keen to work over in mainland Europe anyway) I didn't think this was a good enough reason to make him stay in a discipline he didn't like (RAD). And perhaps there's some truth in it, as RB(S) has never shown any interest at all in him, whereas he has had more than enough interest from other (equivalent status) schools and companies around the world to make this quite anomalous....Whether that is because he has a 'Russian' body (!) or has trained Russian is impossible to know....!!

dance direct and porselli both stock wear moi. I have found both companies very good (as well of course as justballet as above)

What wonderful news, and how proud you must be of the fortitude and talents of both your lovely girls

aileen she is now at Dutch National Junior company and I hear she has just signed a contract for the main company (at the tender age of 17). Yes the extract is from the school show... appreciate it seems to be a bit of a hijack of this thread to refer to Riho but I think Miko (along with others as discussed above) deliberately cultivates a massive social media following and this does seem to make people anxious that this is now mandatory to getting a contract. So I think it is important to highlight that you can do just as well with no internet or prize winning presence at all ... (at least it makes me feel better, as I can't face the thought of this as well as all the other organisational challenges we face to support DS!!!)

I remember watching Miko in First Position (she won a bronze medal I think) and I was tickled to see DSs best friend from the Kirov standing quietly behind with... a gold medal Also her teacher in the film is the twin brother of DSs first teacher at Kirov. Guess the ballet world is pretty small! Personally I have always thought Miko looks a bit strained (as if she's trying too hard) compared to the girl I refer to above, who you can see in this link aged 14 (btw you can spot a 14 yr old DS in there too- he's the first Rose Cavalier to appear...and the tallest)