NY Honours 2018 - Darcey Bussell made a Dame, & more

[bridiem]

23 minutes ago, DrewCo said:

An outsider here, but wanted to say I can’t help but be happy at this news, though I am sure there are other very deserving figures and...uh...I know that not everyone is a fan. I guess this speaks to Bussell’s international reputation which has been mentioned. The first time I saw her was when she appeared with NYCB in Agon (when she danced the whole ballet) and I remember how electrified the audience was. During intermission, it was not just a tiny number of fans talking about her—it almost seemed as if everyone in the audience was looking at each other excitedly and feeling compelled to say something. In the ladies room strangers were nodding to each other and saying how great the performance had been. The person sitting in front of me had arrived late and was seated at the end of intermission after Agon had been danced only to have the person next to her glance over and ask in an almost horrified tone (if not very considerately) “you missed THAT?!?” This response was not about star quality (though she had that) but a presentness, alertness, and musical responsiveness in her dancing  that made her seem absolutely fresh and in the moment in a way that for me, and some others, even recalled Farrell while still being completely distinctive. At the time, there was a lot of unease at how Balanchine was being danced in the wake of his death and I suspect her success had an extra frisson because of that as well.  Later I very much admired and enjoyed her dancing in other repertory with both NYCB and the Royal Ballet — though I saw her much less than many here and, if it weren’t for this website wouldn't even have known about her television career — but that first time she danced Agon in its entirety with NYCB is also just a special memory for the sheer excitement of discovery experienced in the theater with so many others.

 

That's very interesting, DrewCo. Bussell did have a very special quality, and for me it came out most effectively in 'abstract' roles especially Balanchine and above all, to my surprise, Song of the Earth. I never found her very persuasive in dramatic roles. But I think that the fact that she chose Song of the Earth for her farewell performance shows an admirable level of self-awareness.

[bridiem]

5 hours ago, toursenlair said:

 

 

 Canadians are not allowed to accept UK honours.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/organic-foods-canada-s-military-role-in-iraq-free-trade-nation-1.2868748/why-canadians-can-t-be-dames-or-sirs-and-why-some-people-want-that-to-change-1.2868741

 

Not that the Canadian government is falling over themselves to give Lynn Seymour the Order of Canada, as they ought to be.

 

But Seymour did get a CBE in 1976. Your link above mentions all honours, but maybe in fact honours below knighthoods etc are OK? Or has it changed since 1976?

[alison]

35 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

That's very interesting, DrewCo. Bussell did have a very special quality, and for me it came out most effectively in 'abstract' roles especially Balanchine and above all, to my surprise, Song of the Earth.

 

Yes.  I always wished she had gone to NYCB: I think both would have benefited greatly.

[penelopesimpson]

43 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

That's very interesting, DrewCo. Bussell did have a very special quality, and for me it came out most effectively in 'abstract' roles especially Balanchine and above all, to my surprise, Song of the Earth. I never found her very persuasive in dramatic roles. But I think that the fact that she chose Song of the Earth for her farewell performance shows an admirable level of self-awareness.

I thought Song was her best role which was, as you say, surprising.  I thought she was excellent in Sleeping Beauty because her smiley niceness helped.  That is the difference between her and Francesca Hayward who both have joy in their dancing.  Darcey was always Darcey on stage whereas Francesca truly inhabits her roles.

[toursenlair]

4 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

But Seymour did get a CBE in 1976. Your link above mentions all honours, but maybe in fact honours below knighthoods etc are OK? Or has it changed since 1976?

people on this board were complaining about her not getting a DBE. I was explaining why that is not possible for Canadians.

[MAB]

If honorary KBE's can go to non Brits exactly why can't DBE's.

[capybara]

12 minutes ago, MAB said:

If honorary KBE's can go to non Brits exactly why can't DBE's.

 

I think that they can. DAME Nellie Melba, DAME Joan Sutherland, DAME Anjelina Jolie etc

[Kate_N]

On 30/12/2017 at 13:03, Jan McNulty said:

I've looked into this in the past for a variety of reasons and people are nominated for honours.  Anybody can nominate someone.  Supporting evidence is required.  The level of award (if approved) is decided by the Honours Committee.

 

I think it's wonderful that Ms Bussell has been recognised, ad it's sad that there are mean-spirited responses to it. I'm a political republican (small 'r' not the US kind!) but I can still appreciate the public recognition that British imperial honours give, and celebrate the way that such honours show how the arts are recognised and appreciated.

 

As for why some people are awarded honours & others not ... when I was working at a very large eminent civic university, there was quite a push on us senior professors to think about honours & awards - seriously! (very ambitious university with a Sir at the helm). What was very clear from the various meetings I attended where this topic came up - at least for the award of honours to academics - was that nominees for awards should be not only be really really excellent at their jobs, but also should be doing a lot of community service to promote their profession/expertise more widely.  (Rather controversially, I don't think that such a requirement applies to senior civil servants ... ).

 

So on these grounds, Ms Bussell's extensive work in popularising dance, and ballet especially, is being recognised. Judging Strictly is only part of it. But isn't it wonderful to have a Strictly judge who was such a beautiful dance artist and at the top of her profession? I really hope that Ms Bussell's work on Strictly helps to break down the idea that ballet is elitist.

[Nicola H]

17 hours ago, Shirley said:

 

It's interesting that you mention this Floss. I could be wrong but I think the first time she was seen on TV was on Blue Peter with others from the RB school. I'm not sure how much of a say she had in that  but being British and her seemingly quick rise to being made a principal definitely got the press interested.

 I think that is a significant factor as she is seen as British Home Grown etc etc...

 

With respect to the comments about presenting etc. Surely someone with that level of public recognition has the opportunity to steer work  they are asked to br involved with in one direction or another. Although there is always the fear of being typecast... 

[bridiem]

2 hours ago, Kate_N said:

As for why some people are awarded honours & others not ... when I was working at a very large eminent civic university, there was quite a push on us senior professors to think about honours & awards - seriously! (very ambitious university with a Sir at the helm). What was very clear from the various meetings I attended where this topic came up - at least for the award of honours to academics - was that nominees for awards should be not only be really really excellent at their jobs, but also should be doing a lot of community service to promote their profession/expertise more widely. 

 

That's fair enough, but if this is a 'requirement' it just doesn't seem to be applied consistently or fairly. Awards are given to some clearly deserving people and not to others. And some receive honours who are simply excellent at what they do. I do support an honours system, but if it becomes (or appears to become) a lottery then it fails to fulfil the purpose it should be serving.

Edited January 1, 2018 by bridiem

[bangorballetboy]

3 hours ago, capybara said:

 

I think that they can. DAME Nellie Melba, DAME Joan Sutherland, DAME Anjelina Jolie etc

 

Nellie Melba (GBE...) and Joan Sutherland's damehoods were not honorary; they were Australian (so Commonwealth) and full honours.

 

And as Jolie's damehood is honorary, she is not entitled to the use of the prefix Dame.

[Lizbie1]

3 hours ago, capybara said:

 

I think that they can. DAME Nellie Melba, DAME Joan Sutherland, DAME Anjelina Jolie etc

 

I think the rules have changed for Australians since Dame Joan, so presumably the same holds for Canada since Seymour's CBE. I think NZ still allows it, though I could be out of date. I remember it being suggested about 20 years ago that NZ might opt out, as it were: Dame Kiri Te Kanawa was quoted as being "appalled" at the idea!

 

As for Angelina Jolie's honorary damehood - I'm not sure if these are available to subjects/citizens whose head of state is the Queen.

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Lizbie1
Clarification by adding "for Canada"

[Kate_N]

29 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

That's fair enough, but if this is a 'requirement' it just doesn't seem to be applied consistently or fairly. Awards are given to some clearly deserving people and not to others.

 

Oh, I agree (which is why I'm not particularly in favour of an honours system at all), and I think every year, there is public & private discussion of the rights & wrongs of various awards. 'Twas ever thus.

 

I do know that there have been very strong attempts to give higher honours to women - whose work tends to be overlooked - and to broaden out the kinds of activities & contributions which are recognised and rewarded. And as someone else noted upthread, we'll never know who has been approached to receive an award and has turned it down. 

 

I think the whole system is so mixed that it's fairly pointless to lament the "unfairness" of awards or non-awards, recognition and non-recognition. The system itself is fundamentally - well, if not "unfair" - at least flawed and from the outside looks very arbitrary. So any decision could be criticised. Better simply to celebrate those who are recognised, and if one feels strongly, enter into the process of nominating worthy recipients.

[toursenlair]

4 hours ago, capybara said:

 

I think that they can. DAME Nellie Melba, DAME Joan Sutherland, DAME Anjelina Jolie etc

they're not Canadian, last time I checked.

[bridiem]

41 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

Oh, I agree (which is why I'm not particularly in favour of an honours system at all), and I think every year, there is public & private discussion of the rights & wrongs of various awards. 'Twas ever thus.

 

I do know that there have been very strong attempts to give higher honours to women - whose work tends to be overlooked - and to broaden out the kinds of activities & contributions which are recognised and rewarded. And as someone else noted upthread, we'll never know who has been approached to receive an award and has turned it down. 

 

I think the whole system is so mixed that it's fairly pointless to lament the "unfairness" of awards or non-awards, recognition and non-recognition. The system itself is fundamentally - well, if not "unfair" - at least flawed and from the outside looks very arbitrary. So any decision could be criticised. Better simply to celebrate those who are recognised, and if one feels strongly, enter into the process of nominating worthy recipients.

 

I'm not sure if 'twas ever thus', in fact. I think in recent years the awards have become more and more apparently random to an outsider. But I agree that nominating worthy recipients is a good idea; however, even if someone is 'worthy' it doesn't necessarily work!

[bangorballetboy]

2 hours ago, toursenlair said:

they're not Canadian, last time I checked.

 

To be fair, that post was a response to a question about honorary awards so not being Canadian is irrelevant.

[Arky]

When I decided to read the comments on the Forum about Darcey Bussell being made a Dame I commented to my husband that I was going to check if the Darcey bashing had started again. From a minority of Forum member it had, though some posters have begun retreating for their initial hyper-critical comments. Equally “a gush fest”, as one member puts it, is not necessary, just plain common decency in our comments and rejoicing that a former Principal of the Royal Ballet has been honoured thus.

 

One aspect of the criticism included Darcey’s name.

Changes of name for ballet dancers have happened often enough in the past. To give just three well-known examples -

Alicia Markova’s birth was registered as Lilian Alicia Marks

Anton Dolin was registered as Sidney Francis P C Kay,  and not as Encylopaedia Britannica and Wikipedia would have us believe as Sydney Francis Patrick Chippendall Healey-Kay [his mother’s maiden name was Healey].

Margot Fonteyn’s birth was registered as Margaret Evelyn Hookham

 

However, Darcey Bussell did not start to use her middle name to be noticed, as has been suggested. Her name at birth was registered as Darcey Andrea Crittle  [https://www.freebmd.org.uk]. After her parents’ divorce, her mother remarried Mr Bussell; obviously I do not know whether or not he adopted Darcey but she took his name.

 

Congratulations, Darcey, on your honour!

[SwissBalletFan]

13 minutes ago, Arky said:

When I decided to read the comments on the Forum about Darcey Bussell being made a Dame I commented to my husband that I was going to check if the Darcey bashing had started again. From a minority of Forum member it had, though some posters have begun retreating for their initial hyper-critical comments. Equally “a gush fest”, as one member puts it, is not necessary, just plain common decency in our comments and rejoicing that a former Principal of the Royal Ballet has been honoured thus.

 

To be fair, preaching isn’t really included in ‘plain common decency’.

 

Ms. Bussell invites some level of criticism for the way in which she goes about things, and I don’t think that anyone  has ‘begun retreating’.

Even her statement that she is ‘deeply humbled’, has a ring of the disingenuous about it for me.

 

I am not sure her award has been delivered as a sign of approval from her adoring public clamoring for her to be recognized, rather that it has been given after some deft political understanding of what it takes, and some words in the right ears at the higher echelons of power.

 

In these awards, there are hurdles to go through, and she has ‘ticked all the boxes’ to receive this award. Just because we are all Dance fans, it does not mean we should rejoice, for an award for one of ‘ours’. 

 

Actually, one poster said something that, although she danced beautifully, she was always still ‘Darcey’ and didn’t fully inhabit the role to steal the audiences’ hearts or emotions.

 

I feel exactly this way about her receiving this award. Respect that she has received it, and for all the right things she has done to deserve it; in her charity work and in her career, however it leaves me rather cold.

[Fonty]

54 minutes ago, Arky said:

When I decided to read the comments on the Forum about Darcey Bussell being made a Dame I commented to my husband that I was going to check if the Darcey bashing had started again. From a minority of Forum member it had, though some posters have begun retreating for their initial hyper-critical comments. 

 

I hadn't notice any hyper critical comments.  My own remark was meant to be a light hearted one, I was a bit surprised that it was taken as criticism.  I should have used a smilie smilie. 

 

8 hours ago, Kate_N said:

So on these grounds, Ms Bussell's extensive work in popularising dance, and ballet especially, is being recognised. Judging Strictly is only part of it. But isn't it wonderful to have a Strictly judge who was such a beautiful dance artist and at the top of her profession? I really hope that Ms Bussell's work on Strictly helps to break down the idea that ballet is elitist.

 

Well, I am not sure that her being a judge on Strictly is  doing that.  Which is why I am a little disappointed by some of the programmes she has done since she retired.

 

As I mentioned previously, I would like to see her front a programme about classical ballet.  And I don't mean one with lots of talking heads saying that they once saw Fonteyn dance, or that their grandmother cried when they saw Pavlova.  I am talking about a programme that features ballet dancers dancing.  As someone mentioned above, she was wonderful in the Balanchine ballets.  Why not front a programme, saying what it was like to dance in them, with clips of dancers rehearsing, information about the technical aspects and so on.   

 

After all, if Tamara Rojo can get someone to make an in depth programme about Swan Lake, then I am sure Darcey has the clout to get a similar programme made about some other aspect of the art form in which she excelled, and with her popularity it could introduce a lot more people to the world of classical ballet.

 

. 

[Shirley]

34 minutes ago, SwissBalletFan said:

Ms. Bussell invites some level of criticism for the way in which she goes about things,

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

 

 

 

[capybara]

5 hours ago, toursenlair said:

they're not Canadian, last time I checked.

 

So what is the difference? Canada is in the Commonwealth too, I believe.

[Lizbie1]

8 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

So what is the difference? Canada is in the Commonwealth too, I believe.

 

If you're really interested: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom#British_honours_in_the_Commonwealth_realms

[Don Q Fan]

I was a very surprised Darcey Bussell was made a Dame seems far too young for that. A different award yes, but a Damehood? Agree re David Bintley but perhaps he's been offered a knighthood and refused it. Who knows. Anyway all goes to show how the honours system definitely needs an overhaul.  I'd prefer to see awards go to the likes of emergency and defence services and volunteers rather than high profile individuals. I'll stop here as don't want to get embroiled in politics.

 

[Lizbie1]

1 minute ago, Don Q Fan said:

I was a very surprised Darcey Bussell was made a Dame seems far too young for that. A different award yes, but a Damehood? Agree re David Bintley but perhaps he's been offered a knighthood and refused it. Who knows. Anyway all goes to show how the honours system definitely needs an overhaul.  I'd prefer to see awards go to the likes of emergency and defence services and volunteers rather than high profile individuals. I'll stop here as don't want to get embroiled in politics.

 

 

As someone mentioned earlier: they do, it's just not widely reported. (I remember our school's electrician getting a gong 30 years ago, for example.)

[bridiem]

5 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

If you're really interested: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom#British_honours_in_the_Commonwealth_realms

 

Thanks for posting this, Lizbie1. If it's correct, it seems that there is a difference, or at  least a potential difference, between theory and practice.

[alison]

42 minutes ago, Fonty said:

Well, I am not sure that her being a judge on Strictly is  doing that.  Which is why I am a little disappointed by some of the programmes she has done since she retired.

 

Possibly the programmes she has been asked to do?  They've certainly had more of a "ballroom" bent than a ballet one recently - and let's face it, that's a subject about which she originally had little more experience than the rest of us.  And I imagine she got the DBE for services to dance, rather than ballet. But then there are probably quite a few people in the country now who don't realise that she ever was a ballerina - after all, it's pretty much a decade now since she retired from that.

 

Quote

After all, if Tamara Rojo can get someone to make an in depth programme about Swan Lake, then I am sure Darcey has the clout to get a similar programme made about some other aspect of the art form in which she excelled, and with her popularity it could introduce a lot more people to the world of classical ballet.

 

She did do a "Darcey's top 10" programme a few years ago: I can't remember whether it was roles she specifically had danced, or what now.  And anyway, if it were about ballet, it'd probably be ghettoised on BBC4, where much of her target audience wouldn't spot it.

[penelopesimpson]

36 minutes ago, alison said:

 

Possibly the programmes she has been asked to do?  They've certainly had more of a "ballroom" bent than a ballet one recently - and let's face it, that's a subject about which she originally had little more experience than the rest of us.  And I imagine she got the DBE for services to dance, rather than ballet. But then there are probably quite a few people in the country now who don't realise that she ever was a ballerina - after all, it's pretty much a decade now since she retired from that.

 

 

She did do a "Darcey's top 10" programme a few years ago: I can't remember whether it was roles she specifically had danced, or what now.  And anyway, if it were about ballet, it'd probably be ghettoised on BBC4, where much of her target audience wouldn't spot it.

Ooh, Alison, I adore BBC4 and live in hope that its funding may be increased allowing it to create more programmes.  Its the first channel I look at to see if the box can provide anything to watch.

[Nicola H]

9 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

That's fair enough, but if this is a 'requirement' it just doesn't seem to be applied consistently or fairly. Awards are given to some clearly deserving people and not to others. And some receive honours who are simply excellent at what they do. I do support an honours system, but if it becomes (or appears to become) a lottery then it fails to fulfil the purpose it should be serving.

1. Nominations  and the quality of the nominations  if submitted  ...   it;s only long service  awards that  are made on the basis  of  box ticking , Honours   +  'distinguished# medals ( and obviously gallatry medals)  depend on  the citation covering the requirements 

2. peopel who decline the offer  but  don't make a hoo-ha aobut the fact they have decline 

[Nicola H]

10 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

I think the rules have changed for Australians since Dame Joan, so presumably the same holds for Canada since Seymour's CBE. I think NZ still allows it, though I could be out of date. I remember it being suggested about 20 years ago that NZ might opt out, as it were: Dame Kiri Te Kanawa was quoted as being "appalled" at the idea!

 

As for Angelina Jolie's honorary damehood - I'm not sure if these are available to subjects/citizens whose head of state is the Queen.

 

 

 

the  quick and dirty  summary is :-

British citizens get the full gong , and  if you  have the  'honorary' version but subsequently gain British  Citizenship ( as  Terry Wogan did  ) it  gets converted 

some of the Commonwealth countires it gets complicated becasue they systems while still awarded in the name of the Queen as  titular head fo State  of that Country  ( but as Queen of that  Country  not of GB&NI) , which means  it complex or near impossible for them to get the 'British' awards  

where as for a none commonwealth  country   there;s not really a lot that can be done  by  the other country  other than diplomatic whinging  and i doubt  there are many  who  spark a full diplomatic spat over it   unless they  were  currently in a  hostile  relationship with the UK 

[ninamargaret]

I think.ballet suffers from a poor image in this country. It's very much thought of as being ladies in long white dresses,skipping about on their toes. The average theatre goer will probably go to  Swan Lake, Nutcracker, maybe,if they're feeling adventurous even R and J. This is not helped by the Press, who,except for the more serious papers,tend to ignore it.And even The Times today in a section headed The   best of the Arts totally ignored dance. Theatre, film, tv, classical music - dance just didn't get a mention. Don't know what the answer is. Theatres have worked hard at encouraging and educating children, and I am sure ballet companies try to do the same but I suspect lack of funds and poor perception of dance is the problem.

 

 

 

 

[Nicola H]

1 minute ago, ninamargaret said:

I think.ballet suffers from a poor image in this country. It's very much thought of as being ladies in long white dresses,skipping about on their toes. The average theatre goer will probably go to  Swan Lake, Nutcracker, maybe,if they're feeling adventurous even R and J. This is not helped by the Press, who,except for the more serious papers,tend to ignore it.And even The Times today in a section headed The   best of the Arts totally ignored dance. Theatre, film, tv, classical music - dance just didn't get a mention. Don't know what the answer is. Theatres have worked hard at encouraging and educating children, and I am sure ballet companies try to do the same but I suspect lack of funds and poor perception of dance is the problem.

 

 

 

 

I know Northern has  it's  whole 'Ballets for little people' thread of works   ( which is also choreography  and director/ producer   nursery slope   for   the more senior  Dancers within the  company - and  and opportunity  looking at cast lists for the younger members of the company to get to play  actual 'named' roles  ) 
https://northernballet.com/productions

 

[fashionista]

On 12/30/2017 at 08:09, Two Pigeons said:

How about Lynn Seymour?  Someone else who I think has been overlooked.  I know she's a CBE but we have Dame Merle and Dame Antionette -both well deserved- but i think Lynn should have had equal treatment.

Totally agree!!!!

[Lynette H]

14 hours ago, ninamargaret said:

. Theatres have worked hard at encouraging and educating children, and I am sure ballet companies try to do the same but I suspect lack of funds and poor perception of dance is the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

I thought it was very good to see that David Pickering of the Royal Ballet received an MBE for his education and outreach work. Congratulations to him.