NY Honours 2018 - Darcey Bussell made a Dame, & more

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, Shirley said:

Showing my ignorance here but when was the last time a dancer was made a Dame or a Knight who hadn't been a director of a company?

 

An interesting question. Apart from the RAD presidents, I don't know the answer. If the answer is none or very few, that would be quite annoying! Quite a few actors and actresses (and at least some singers) have received knighthoods or damehoods just by virtue of their acting careers, especially in recent years. So why should this not apply to dancers too?

[Fonty]

1 hour ago, FLOSS said:

I think that a dancer has to do something else after retirement other than doing her job, however well she does it, to be in the running for a DBE or knighthood.

I am usually a very cynical soul but I think it is the RAD connection that is significant here as the presidency is not a figurehead role.

 

Not just dancers, I think that is supposed to be the rule for anyone who becomes a Sir or a Dame.  However, I think they have been awarded rather lavishly in recent years.  Just look at all the titles handed out to sportsmen and women after the last couple of Olympics. I don't begrudge them recognition for their achievements, but surely the highest honour should wait until they have done that something else, whatever it happens to be?

 

I would stress that in I am not in any way questioning Darcey's award, which I am sure is fully deserved.  

 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Fonty

[FLOSS]

I think that given that a number of the male Directors of the RB have received knighthoods and both of the women who have been Directors were made DBEs it is easy to assume that the gong goes with the job but I don't believe that is the case.I don't think that there is a direct connection between running the RB or any other company and getting a gong when you look at the details of the careers of the people who have have been directors. See what you think.

 

De Valois was made a DBE in 1951 while she was running the company she had founded in 1931. She was later made CH and OM. 

 

Ashton Director 1963-1970 received his knighthood in 1962  while he was working as the company's principal choreographer. He became director in 1963 receiving  his CH in 1970 the year he "retired" from the directorship and his OM in 1977.

 

MacMillan Director 1970-77 was knighted in 1983.

 

Norman Morrice Director 1977-86 (the forgotten director ) was not knighted.

 

Dowell  Director 1986- 2001  was knighted in 1995. 

 

Ross Stretton Director 2001-02. It is said that the event which precipitated his departure was Lady M's threat made to the Board to withdraw the rights to perform her late husband ballets. Stretton had dared to suggest that only MacMillan;s full length works should be performed on the main stage and that his one act works should be shown in smaller spaces. At the point that Lady M intervened and made her threat the Board was dithering about how to respond to allegations that Stretton was casting dancers in exchange for sexual favours. David Drew a senior member of the company made public these allegations which had been made to him in his capacity as union representative by  company members.

 

 Mason Director 2002- 2012 was first appointed as Acting Director when Stretton left and then Director.  She was made DBE in 2008. 

 

Other DBEs and Knighthoods. 

 

Alicia Markova DBE and Anton Dolin founded a short lived ballet company before the war, After the war they established Festival Ballet which became London Festival Ballet and later ENB. Markova retired from dancing in 1963 the year she was made DBE. Dolin was knighted in 1980, It would be a mistake to see these awards as rewards for establishing and running LFB as both of them made major contributions to the development of ballet in this country and abroad.

 

Merle Park was appointed director of the RBS in 1983 was made DBE in 1986 for services to dance.

 

Again with Sir Peter Wright it was not just the fact that he had been the director of SWRB/BRB  but his contribution to the development of dance  which was of significance.

 

Gillian Lynne 

Former member of the Sadler's Wells Ballet. Choreographer and Director. DBE 2014

 

Peter Darrell co founder of Western Theatre Ballet  who moved the entire operation to Scotland where it became Scottish Ballet. Founder Director of the company and its main choreographer. He was a contemporary of Cranko and MacMillan and made a large number of good ballets.including aThe tales of Hoffman which I recall as being very impressive. He got as far as CBE in 1983 and I have no doubt that if he had not died in 1987 he would have made it to KBE

 

This list is not exhaustive.

Edited December 30, 2017 by FLOSS

[Shirley]

Thank you so much Floss.

 

The only other dancer who came to my mind was Beryl Grey who was awarded a DBE in 1988 and then the CH in 2017. I see she  is a Vice president of the RAD as is Gillian Lynne and  David Bintley.

[bridiem]

14 minutes ago, Shirley said:

Thank you so much Floss.

 

The only other dancer who came to my mind was Beryl Grey who was awarded a DBE in 1988 and then the CH in 2017. I see she  is a Vice president of the RAD as is Gillian Lynne and  David Bintley.

 

And of course she was director of Festival Ballet. It does seem that being a dancer is in itself not considered sufficient.

[Quintus]

 

 

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 

 Just look at all the titles handed out to sportsmen and women after the last couple of Olympics. I don't begrudge them recognition for their achievements, but surely the highest honour should wait until they have done that something else, whatever it happens to be?

 

 

Some jobs or activities (typically those that already have their own industry medals and awards) seem to come with a guaranteed gong, so why not make the honours fit? Give the luvvies the Order of Old Entertainers, the Order of Political Donors to the rent-a-peers, the Order of PE to the Olympic medallists and retired footballers and so on. Save the OBEs, CBEs etc for ordinary people who have done something extraordinary outside their job...

 

 

[capybara]

I would like to reinforce the suggestion that those would like to see David Bintley knighted should get organised. I believe that 'ordinary folk' did quite a bit to promote Monica Mason's cause. Maybe the way forward could be by securing the cooperation of OneDanceUK?

[LinMM]

Not completely ...but a little nearer how I see these things Quintus.

 

Not everyone ...in whatever field they are in ...who possibly deserves an "honour" will get one and that includes the Dance world.

 

However as Darcy has received an honour....even though there are others who may be as deserving.....many congratulations to her ....I'm sure she works very hard when not on Strictly as well.

 

I feel a bit ambivalent about these awards though. On the one hand it is quite nice to have such awards to reward people who have achieved over and beyond for the good of society in one way or another but do they go out to people for the best reasons on occasions

 

So understand where Quintus is coming from .....there are so many "ordinary" members of the public who do great work for others in a quiet way and without reward but then many of these would see an award as superfluous as its just part of who they are. Still I think it's nice for society to recognise such people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[George C]

I have long harboured doubts about ‘gongs’ and felt that frequently in the world of arts and culture there is an element of being famous for being famous. It seems so unfair that someone of David Bintley’s stature is overlooked. He has nurtured Birmingham Royal Ballet to international status yet still providing ballet to areas of the U K that otherwise get to see little  first class ballet. At the same time BRB contribute enormously to the community through their education work and projects in the city.On top of that he is a driving force in Ballet Now to launch new choreographers. Finally who could doubt he has contributed enormously to heritage of British ballet. Sir David is long overdue.

[thewinelake]

7 hours ago, cavycapers said:

I see that all the broadsheets have pictures of Darcey as ballerina (Odette and Sylvia) whilst the tabloids have pics of her from Strictly  i don't think she received the award for services to Strictly.  Sir Craig Revel Horwood...?

Dame, surely?!

[Tony Newcombe]

I get the impression that actors and opera singers get their awards for carrying out their professions whereas ballet dancers have to do something extra. I know Collier was awarded a CBE while she was still dancing, but I personally am saddened that she has not been recognised. She came through the system set up by De Valois and we have been lucky to see her pass on all her knowledge in numerous masterclasses since she retired from dancing. Bintley has achieved many things at BRB. I have really enjoyed travelling to smaller venues to see the split tour programmmes. I have heard that funding for these is becoming more difficult to obtain. My feeling is that somebody high up in the arts world does not like him.

[SwissBalletFan]

I think in ballet there have always been a number of artists, at all levels and throughout the world who have pushed themselves (or had influential hands pushing from behind) to the front, to be noticed, recognized and to make the most of their careers. Some may call it self promotion, some may calling it making the most of your lot.

 

I think that it is quite obvious when people are doing this, and there is no shame in it. Ms Bussel, isn’t the face of BBC ballet and all things dance purely by luck.

 

I am sure her charities and the companies she is connected to will benefit a great deal by this recognition too. So it’s all good for her.

 

However, in ballet, as in life, we all see those showing it all and pushing for all, while secretly rooting for the less showy, ambitious or more natural or humble person/dancer who would do equally well in the role.

 

I think it’s up to the fans and audiences to recognize these quiet and kind individuals, give them an extra applause or recognition they are not expecting...from ballet studio to opera house.

 

 

[capybara]

46 minutes ago, SwissBalletFan said:

I think it’s up to the fans and audiences to recognize these quiet and kind individuals, give them an extra applause or recognition they are not expecting...from ballet studio to opera house.

 

Well said! I think that we try to show our appreciation on here as well.

 

However, pushiness does seem to carry weight in terms of opportunities in the ballet world and Directors' favourites for particular roles and advancement do not always align with those of fans.

[MAB]

Of course many turn down honours and although we may think Seymour or Bintley  deserving, they may not care for a title.  A former colleague of mine, an eminent economist, accepted a knighthood and a couple of years before, a lesser honour.  He felt his acceptance was recognition of the teams he led and the work they had done together.  Good excuse for an office party though.

[FLOSS]

 Irving's knighthood was the sign that theatre had become respectable and that players were no longer regarded as "rogues and vagabonds". I am not sure that many of the actors and actresses who have been given gongs have been awarded them merely because they are" famous for being famous" although I am sure that in fifty years time it will be generally assumed that Maggie Smith became a DBE because of Downton Abbey and that Diana Rigg got hers for playing Mrs Peel. As far as dancers are concerned they generally retire at an age when they would be deemed far too young to be considered as eligible for a gong.

 

It also has to be remembered that while the period from the forties to the seventies was one in which the arts were thought to be of sufficient importance to society as a whole for it to be the duty of government to  make them accessible through state subsidy that is not the case today. The powers that be operate in the world as it is today and  I suspect that to some extent they judge what is appropriate by how it will play in the media. It is still clearly thought acceptable to award senior civil servants with their "God Calls Me Gods" which are part of what is thought to hold the system together. But ballet has gone from being a living art form sufficiently well known and popular with the general public for National Savings to issue a poster with an image of Pamela May as Aurora and a slogan about keeping a good balance on it, to one that is seen as inherently elitist.I suspect the fact that ballet performances are no longer to be seen on terrestrial television channels and the fact  that the press' default vocabulary for ballet are words like "elite" and "elitist" does not help when it comes to handing out gongs to those connected with ballet.

 

The powers that be are going through a populist phase at present and it could be that to them the world of ballet appears to be too small, exclusive and a bit too elitist for its practitioners generally to be in the running for awards. Bintley has already been awarded his CBE  but perhaps at sixty he is not judged quite old enough for the knighthood. Dame Beryl was awarded the DBE when she was in her mid sixties while Sir Peter was given his award when he was in his seventies. Being the director of a company is a starting point but other factors such as age are significant. It will be interesting to see whether by the time he is in his mid sixties Bintley has been given a knighthood.

 

Bussell is different she has been good at publicity from the outset of her career. She is a celebrity, she has adorned the bedroom walls of countless little girls who dream of being dancers, but she has also worked hard.Her performances, including her farewell one have been seen by enormous audiences worldwide because they have been televised and some issued on DVD. Whatever you may think of her as an artist for many people, for good or ill, she is British ballet. After about five years as President of the RAD she has been made a DBE. That should not come as a surprise to anyone as the RAD has a significant place in dance education worldwide. If appointing Bussell  a DBE gives classical dance a bit more of a profile that can't be bad can it ?

 

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by FLOSS

[toursenlair]

On 12/30/2017 at 06:33, Darlex said:

My thoughts exactly. Think of all the wonderful roles she created. 

 

On 12/30/2017 at 03:09, Two Pigeons said:

How about Lynn Seymour?  Someone else who I think has been overlooked.  I know she's a CBE but we have Dame Merle and Dame Antionette -both well deserved- but i think Lynn should have had equal treatment.

 

 Canadians are not allowed to accept UK honours.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/organic-foods-canada-s-military-role-in-iraq-free-trade-nation-1.2868748/why-canadians-can-t-be-dames-or-sirs-and-why-some-people-want-that-to-change-1.2868741

 

Not that the Canadian government is falling over themselves to give Lynn Seymour the Order of Canada, as they ought to be.

[Fonty]

5 hours ago, FLOSS said:

 If appointing Bussell  a DBE gives classical dance a bit more of a profile that can't be bad can it ?

 

If the announcement is accompanied by clips of her as a judge on Strictly, rather than ones taken during her years with the RB,  I don't hold out many hopes that it will.  

 

I would really like to see Darcey doing a serious programme about classical ballet, with lots of dancing in it; the sort of thing that Deborah Bull used to do.  Rojo did a good one about dancing the role of Swan Lake, I don't see why we can't have more along those lines with Bussell either presenting or dancing herself.  

[penelopesimpson]

On 12/30/2017 at 12:43, Shirley said:

Such a shame that the usual posters are making their usual negative comments about Ms Bussell  

 

I would like to congratulate all 5 of those in the dance world who received honours for 'Services to Dance'.

 

Really?  This is a discussion forum, not a gush-fest.

 

[Shirley]

 

Quote

Really?  This is a discussion forum, not a gush-fest.

 

Well aware it is but thank you for pointing that out and  I have enjoyed reading many of the discussions over the years.

 

I only made an observation from years of reading posts. I come from the world of 'If you have nothing nice to say then say nothing' but as you may see from my post count I usually say nothing  - not even the nice. (I think, apart from this thread, nearly of my previous posts have been in the ticket threads as it's a fantastic place to purchase the wonderful Stalls Circle Standing Tickets.)

[Shirley]

6 hours ago, FLOSS said:

Bussell is different she has been good at publicity from the outset of her career. 

 

It's interesting that you mention this Floss. I could be wrong but I think the first time she was seen on TV was on Blue Peter with others from the RB school. I'm not sure how much of a say she had in that  but being British and her seemingly quick rise to being made a principal definitely got the press interested.

[LinMM]

Shirley don't apologise ....some people are a bit down on Darcey so a perfectly good original post!! 

 

I hope you will will post more than on the ticket thread in future ....and totally agree about that thread ...I'm going tomorrow courtesy of the Forum ...have standing ticket for Nutcracker!!

[Shirley]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 

If the announcement is accompanied by clips of her as a judge on Strictly, rather than ones taken during her years with the RB,  I don't hold out many hopes that it will.  

 

I was very disappointed about that when I saw the clip of Strictly on news last night Fonty.

[Shirley]

22 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I hope you will will post more than on the ticket thread in future ....and totally agree about that thread ...I'm going tomorrow courtesy of the Forum ...have standing ticket for Nutcracker!!

 

You never know I may well do. Have a fantastic time at the show tomorrow LinMM 

[Two Pigeons]

7 hours ago, FLOSS said:

 Irving's knighthood was the sign that theatre had become respectable and that players were no longer regarded as "rogues and vagabonds". I am not sure that many of the actors and actresses who have been given gongs have been awarded them merely because they are" famous for being famous" although I am sure that in fifty years time it will be generally assumed that Maggie Smith became a DBE because of Downton Abbey and that Diana Rigg got hers for playing Mrs Peel. As far as dancers are concerned they generally retire at an age when they would be deemed far too young to be considered as eligible for a gong.

 

It also has to be remembered that while the period from the forties to the seventies was one in which the arts were thought to be of sufficient importance to society as a whole for it to be the duty of government to  make them accessible through state subsidy that is not the case today. The powers that be operate in the world as it is today and  I suspect that to some extent they judge what is appropriate by how it will play in the media. It is still clearly thought acceptable to award senior civil servants with their "God Calls Me Gods" which are part of what is thought to hold the system together. But ballet has gone from being a living art form sufficiently well known and popular with the general public for National Savings to issue a poster with an image of Pamela May as Aurora and a slogan about keeping a good balance on it, to one that is seen as inherently elitist.I suspect the fact that ballet performances are no longer to be seen on terrestrial television channels and the fact  that the press' default vocabulary for ballet are words like "elite" and "elitist" does not help when it comes to handing out gongs to those connected with ballet.

 

The powers that be are going through a populist phase at present and it could be that to them the world of ballet appears to be too small, exclusive and a bit too elitist for its practitioners generally to be in the running for awards. Bintley has already been awarded his CBE  but perhaps at sixty he is not judged quite old enough for the knighthood. Dame Beryl was awarded the DBE when she was in her mid sixties while Sir Peter was given his award when he was in his seventies. Being the director of a company is a starting point but other factors such as age are significant. It will be interesting to see whether by the time he is in his mid sixties Bintley has been given a knighthood.

 

Bussell is different she has been good at publicity from the outset of her career. She is a celebrity, she has adorned the bedroom walls of countless little girls who dream of being dancers, but she has also worked hard.Her performances, including her farewell one have been seen by enormous audiences worldwide because they have been televised and some issued on DVD. Whatever you may think of her as an artist for many people, for good or ill, she is British ballet. After about five years as President of the RAD she has been made a DBE. That should not come as a surprise to anyone as the RAD has a significant place in dance education worldwide. If appointing Bussell  a DBE gives classical dance a bit more of a profile that can't be bad can it ?

 

 

I take a certain amount of comfort from what you say here FLOSS about David Bintley possibly being too young for the next honour.  

 

the point about ballet being 'elitist' is also interesting.  My two ballet goddesses when I first starting watching regularly were Lesley Collier and Marion Tait.  As memory serves me they are very close in age.  In the early/mid 90s Lesley was awarded the CBE (no arguments from me) and Marion the OBE shortly afterwards.  I can remember Mary Clarke making the point that the main company seemed to get senior honours, the touring one a grade below and that this was wrong.

 

So, the 'elitist' company was recognised more than the not so 'elitist' one.

 

there are no two ways about it, Darcey was an out and out star from the moment she stepped on to the Opera House stage in Concerto at her graduation performance.  I met her once while she was dancing with SWRB, I interviewed her when she guested with BRB and I met her again at the 40th birthday party of a mutual friend in 1998.  She remembered me on both the later occasions and was so incredibly approachable.  She clicked with the wider public in a way that has eluded other British ballerinas, such as Lauren Cuthbertson for example.

 

With or without the Strictly link she was one of our great national cultural assets who was appreciated all round the dance world.  I understand she had offers to join NYCB but declined to leave the RB, except to guest.  I do not grudge her the honour as she has indeed brought a great deal to the world of British Ballet.  She was also able to balance this with a happy marriage and family life and if she has made a fair bit of money and not wound up in destitution like poor Margot I cannot blame her for that.

[aileen]

I wonder why Darcey (during her dancing career) became much more of a household name than, say, Lauren Cuthbertson. I know that she'd had an agent from a young age but there must be more to it than that. Was it the ROH / RB, perhaps keen to promote her as the next British star after Margot Fonteyn?

[penelopesimpson]

22 minutes ago, aileen said:

I wonder why Darcey (during her dancing career) became much more of a household name than, say, Lauren Cuthbertson. I know that she'd had an agent from a young age but there must be more to it than that. Was it the ROH / RB, perhaps keen to promote her as the next British star after Margot Fonteyn?

Darcey had all the right things going for her at the right time.  She was a great dancer, had the looks and 'presence', and the determination to push herself along.  Others will know the exact timing better than I , but she caught Macmillan's eye and was around when there wasn't really another British heavyweight dancer.  She seems to be a planner - made a very good marriage to a good provider, left the stage with the public wanting more, disappeared to Australia for a while and then came back set on a media career.  Strictly came along and she has never looked back.  But I don't think we can pretend it has all just fallen into her lap; apart from her ballet career, Darcey is an assiduous networker, acquired a publicist relatively early on and even used a 'memorable' middle name as her Christian name.  It all added up and she became and remains high profile.

 

I don't know that much about Lauren other than that she had to fight a long and serious injury, but it may be that she just didn't want to push herself into the spotlight.  When Darcey came to prominence her only serious rival was the wonderful Viviana Durante who was, IMHO, a more dramatic and accomplished dancer, but could be equally temperamentally dramatic.  With Darcey one always gets the impression of a sunny-natured character who would be easy to deal with and she has made this work for her.

 

I am not her biggest fan (which does not imply having a 'downer' on her) but I applaud her Honour and her presence representing ballet in the UK is valued.  

Edited December 31, 2017 by penelopesimpson

[alison]

29 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

made a very good marriage to a good provider

 

Ouch.

[alison]

9 hours ago, FLOSS said:

Bintley has already been awarded his CBE  but perhaps at sixty he is not judged quite old enough for the knighthood. Dame Beryl was awarded the DBE when she was in her mid sixties while Sir Peter was given his award when he was in his seventies. Being the director of a company is a starting point but other factors such as age are significant. It will be interesting to see whether by the time he is in his mid sixties Bintley has been given a knighthood.

 

Which does rather back up others' surprise that Bussell should have got the female equivalent relatively early, doesn't it?    I know I've repeatedly railed against them being awarded young e.g. to sportspeople who sometimes haven't even finished competing, but once you set a precedent you have to continue with it, so perhaps this is simply a continuation of current practice.  Anyway, congratulations to her: it is indeed a great honour, both for her and her profession.

[aileen]

It's a bit off to comment on Darcey's choice of a husband, penelope. As for her choice of forename, is there any evidence that she adopted this name because it would make her more memorable from a professional profile point of view?

[DrewCo]

An outsider here, but wanted to say I can’t help but be happy at this news, though I am sure there are other very deserving figures and...uh...I know that not everyone is a fan. I guess this speaks to Bussell’s international reputation which has been mentioned. The first time I saw her was when she appeared with NYCB in Agon (when she danced the whole ballet) and I remember how electrified the audience was. During intermission, it was not just a tiny number of fans talking about her—it almost seemed as if everyone in the audience was looking at each other excitedly and feeling compelled to say something. In the ladies room strangers were nodding to each other and saying how great the performance had been. The person sitting in front of me had arrived late and was seated at the end of intermission after Agon had been danced only to have the person next to her glance over and ask in an almost horrified tone (if not very considerately) “you missed THAT?!?” This response was not about star quality (though she had that) but a presentness, alertness, and musical responsiveness in her dancing  that made her seem absolutely fresh and in the moment in a way that for me, and some others, even recalled Farrell while still being completely distinctive. At the time, there was a lot of unease at how Balanchine was being danced in the wake of his death and I suspect her success had an extra frisson because of that as well.  Later I very much admired and enjoyed her dancing in other repertory with both NYCB and the Royal Ballet — though I saw her much less than many here and, if it weren’t for this website wouldn't even have known about her television career — but that first time she danced Agon in its entirety with NYCB is also just a special memory for the sheer excitement of discovery experienced in the theater with so many others.

Edited December 31, 2017 by DrewCo

[alison]

On 12/30/2017 at 15:32, Fonty said:

It seems to me people are much more likely to have their names put forward if they are known to a wider audience, and currently in the public eye, even if it has nothing to do with their original career. 

 

On 12/30/2017 at 15:49, Shirley said:

 

It would be interesting to see how many top honors are given to people not known to the wider public. 

 

 

Most honours, surely, are given to "unknowns" - hundreds of them?  It's just that the newspapers tend to highlight the few "big names" - viz Ringo Starr, Jilly Cooper and Barry Gibb this time.

[Shirley]

11 minutes ago, alison said:

 

Which does rather back up others' surprise that Bussell should have got the female equivalent relatively early, doesn't it?   

 

Fonteyn was 37 when she was awarded a DBE so even younger 

[penelopesimpson]

6 minutes ago, aileen said:

It's a bit off to comment on Darcey's choice of a husband, penelope. As for her choice of forename, is there any evidence that she adopted this name because it would make her more memorable from a professional profile point of view?

Perhaps I expressed myself badly but I can't see why saying Darcey made a good marriage to a wealthy man is viewed as derogatory? I was fortunate enough to be introduced to him once and he was absolutely gorgeous.  The point I am trying to make is that Darcey is the sort of person who does everything right.  I have always thought of her as a Princess, the sort of girl at school who always came up smelling of roses and who makes all the hard work they've put in look effortless.  Personally, I see that as a tribute to her other than anything else.

 

As for the name, I have no idea why she changed it.  Her first name is actually Marnie so I can understand her swapping for Darcey.  It was just handy that it was also a name with media appeal.  

 

We tend to put a high price on amateurism in this country.  Darcey has become highly successful in her field but nobody should underestimate the hard work it has taken, and I don't just mean at the barre.  She is high-profile because she has worked at it and I do not criticise her for the skill she has shown in building a lengthy career.  I hope other dancers will be equally successful.  

 

As for 'criticism,' I reserve it for her dancing.  For me she was wonderful, but never truly great.