balletla Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Sadielou your comments are very sad. It reminded me of a paragraph from the Luke Jennings article: "the British White Lodgers have to compete for their places with increasing numbers of students brought in from abroad, a process many find stressful and demoralising. For Claire Calvert, a talented young Royal Ballet dancer who went through White Lodge and the Upper School, it was "very difficult" when, each year, yet another cadre of overseas students arrived. Some of her friends were worn down by the ceaseless competition. "It's so mentally draining. There are girls who say: 'I just don't want to go on.'" And many didn't. Of the 19 girls who joined White Lodge with Calvert, she was the only one to make it into the company" Link to full article is here: http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2012/mar/25/will-they-make-royal-ballet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happymum Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The majority of above comments about British training are about RBS. What about Elmhurst? Are they more supportive? Do they organise shows with classical ballet so children can perform? Do they encourage/allow them to take part in competitions? Majority from lower school makes it to the upper school? Etc etc ... Anyone with Elmhurst knowledge/experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Sadielou your comments are very sad. It reminded me of a paragraph from the Luke Jennings article: "the British White Lodgers have to compete for their places with increasing numbers of students brought in from abroad, a process many find stressful and demoralising. For Claire Calvert, a talented young Royal Ballet dancer who went through White Lodge and the Upper School, it was "very difficult" when, each year, yet another cadre of overseas students arrived. Some of her friends were worn down by the ceaseless competition. "It's so mentally draining. There are girls who say: 'I just don't want to go on.'" And many didn't. Of the 19 girls who joined White Lodge with Calvert, she was the only one to make it into the company" Link to full article is here: http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2012/mar/25/will-they-make-royal-ballet Although this article is interesting it makes me a little cross that emphasis is made at the end about one year not having a graduate into the company that had been at the school since year 7. In actual fact, out of that years original year 7 over 50 % ended up employed by Classical companies and most are actually working in Britain. And 2 are now in fact with the Royal. And over half who joined WL in later years are also now dancing. Admittedly some of these successful students didnt complete WL and went elsewhere but nonetheless they are a credit to their British training. Now I know things may have changed since my ds was at WL but one aspect of training was solos evenings in years 10 and 11 which is how he learnt a lot of classical repertoire. These were performed in house and I remember him being particularly impressed by one Miss Hayward... As for public performances, well ds got to perform in Coppelia and Giselle pieces in addition to the National dances. For ds these dances were a chance to shine. As a parent I also loved the summer fairs too. And we also got to watch class twice a year. Far more than some other vocational schools. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The majority of above comments about British training are about RBS. What about Elmhurst? Are they more supportive? Do they organise shows with classical ballet so children can perform? Do they encourage/allow them to take part in competitions? Majority from lower school makes it to the upper school? Etc etc ... Anyone with Elmhurst knowledge/experience? I think it is probably because the thread was prompted by an article about RBS in the Dancing Times. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
follycat Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 My dc was at Elmhurst from year 7 until year 14 and was fortunate enough to have many performance opportunities during her time there, both within school, external competitions and with Birmingham Royal Ballet. The summer shows after about year 8 included classical pieces as well as modern/contemporary and flamenco. I would just like to say that contracts are few and far between but it isn't all doom and gloom as dc is now working with BRB having started age 8 as a JA . My dc certainly wasn't a wonder child with perfect feet or amazing extensions and flexibility. Neither were they a genee winner or prix de lausanne contestant. It can happen...keep going you just never know! 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Your daughter has done so well follycat, it's good to hear the positives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Don't be impressed of what you watch on You tube! A few years ago, in my DDs ballet school, there was an exceptional very talented child, he was American, living in Italy for a while for his parents jobs; seeing his potential, parents decided he would have left academic school (he was 8 or 9 at that time) for home-schooling and he would have been trained privately by our ballet school director (a former POB etoile), many hours a day, every day. He partecipated to all the best competitions of the world, YAGP, Varna, Lausanne, and won everything. First prizes everywhere, special awards, scholarships in almost every big academy of the world......He refused a place at RBS, POB, ABT and many others as he was too advanced for his age and entering in the appropriate age group would have meant to go back. Then he went back to USA and, for what I know, he went on training privately. Now is working as professional dancer in a small company in the States. This to say that the expectations for this talented child were much more then this: everybody of us thought he would have been an etoile in a big company....He burned out. I'm pretty certain I know the one you mean. That's so sad. Too much, too soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I also know the one that Zacharovitti means and in fact he is now with ABT Studio Company, which most people would consider a pretty good outcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonrothbart Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 After reading some of these posts, I'm beginning to wonder if a "no"might not be such a bad thing for WL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Having just re-read the article in DT this morning, I can't help wondering whether we are concentrating too much on just one paragraph in a 3-page article. The rest of the article is far more positive (IMHO) and quite different in outlook and tone. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 It would be a HUGE achievement to secure a place at WL. Not many would turn a place down from there. It seems like doom and gloom because we are discussing the negatives. If we where to discuss all the good points, biews would change dramatically. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacharovitti Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yes lindsay I apologize as my information were not up to date. The last news I had about him were that he was in a small company, but now I have seen he is at ABT studio company, that is a great achievement! I am very happy for him as he surely deserves it! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 It's so difficult. I remember having discussions with a parent of a student who was a JA and in year 6, was never really considering going away - I imagine she would've been very happy with a place at her local comp (a good school) and MA's. Her DD was a bright girl who was a lovely dancer but never really 'dazzled' at festivals etc, always being overshadowed by her more 'showy' peers. She wasn't even going to tick the WL box on the application form until the JA teacher suggested they might as well, you never know, etc etc. They got swept along in the 'audition fever', and got places at finals for both WL and Elmhurst. The girl fell in love with WL and subsequently got a place. Parents and I had endless discussions about the pros and cons of it all, and eventually decided that if the worst comes to the worst, she can always leave, but that she must take the opportunity while it was available. The academics at WL are so good because the classes are small and children work hard, so that was not really a concern. But the physical and emotional toll was what worried the parents. Despite now being home, and several injuries later (apparently ankle injuries are very common in the lower school at the moment?!) the student in question appears relatively unscathed and is still enjoying dancing. My advice to any parent is similar - firstly, think about the training options available. If your DC has access to excellent teaching/training for 2-3 hours a day, and can attend summer schools, associate programmes and the like then there's no need for them to go to vocational school. However, many don't have this so vocational schools are the better option. Secondly, if your DC is resilient, thick skinned and gets on well with the majority of their peers then life at somewhere like WL will be the making of them. Those DC who are more highly strung, or sensitive in any way may struggle more. Some children just are not suited to that kind of environment and would blossom and thrive staying at home and finding a good school or two with high quality teaching that suited them better. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CouldDoBetter Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 DrDance I am sure you are right the children do not need to go away at 12 to succeed in ballet - but it is all too easy to get on that rollercoaster ride when they become JAs in primary school and so so difficult to get off once the ride has started. My DD is now off the ride and just a recreational dancer, pursuing other options. I never danced myself so cannot give an educated answer to the many questions posed on this thread. But I do have a view that the students at my DCs school should have done more performing than they did - particularly classical performances. I understand that this is improving. And I do agree with you that children do not need to go to vocational schools at 12 but only if they can go to a particularly good local school. CDB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottokeepworking Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) It would be a HUGE achievement to secure a place at WL. Not many would turn a place down from there. It seems like doom and gloom because we are discussing the negatives. If we where to discuss all the good points, biews would change dramatically. My DS was a JA, turned down WL and went to Elmhurst. He spent 5 very happy years there (Camberley/Birmingham) before auditioning for 6th form. Initially he wanted to go the musical theatre route but decided on ballet. He was offered RBS upper school and this time he didn't turn the place down. I identify with all that has been said about sucking the confidence out of the UK trained students, pushing forward the foreign students who usually came into the school via winning international competitions etc. The RBS years were a emotional rollercoaster. We thought he was the only one who was so unhappy, wanted to give up and leave. It was only at the graduation ceremony when we were expressing our relief that he and we had survived that we found out that this was epidemic in his year. Throughout the three years they all had to have motivation to continue to attend school, bounce back when they were constantly being compared to non UK trained students, overlooked for performance opportunities, given no help with auditioning. The list could go on. There was plenty of motivation and resilience. As a 'graduate' all had jobs on leaving although most were in Europe. Good points - the training they received is still regarded as world class by European companies. Edited January 23, 2015 by gottokeepworking 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Oh dear gottokeepworking, really hope your DS got a contract and is happily working now! Tulip - not sure you are right about discussing the good points - there don't seem to be many people lining up to put them forward or put forward different views to the people who have first hand negative experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I know pictures I'm a bit taken a back. At the end of the day these are children and young adults we are talking about. Teacher are meant to motivate students and are there to develop emotional well being in their students. Just because this is a ballet school, it shouldn't be separated from expectations of normal schools regarding students well being. And I don't believe in toughening them up, they are only 11 at the end of the day. Give them confidence to grow and develop, they are our most talented dancers after all, so sad to hear they are being let down 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Tulip I totally agree with you. It makes me so desperate to start a school that nurtures young dancers and trains them in a safe yet effective way. I'm not saying that there aren't schools out there that are like this, but like Ribbons has said, there don't appear to be people queuing up to shout about how wonderful the schools are. Hopefully now maybe some of them will?! I'd love to hear from some satisfied customers of UK training. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Well I'm really really happy with Central School of Ballet. In first year All of them as a year were told that they had been chosen because the school believed that they all had a career in dance. Since then everyone I believe has been encouraged and trained very well. My daughter has come on leaps at this school, I believe if she had stayed at her previous school she would definately not got anywhere near the standard she is at now. Ofcourse some students get more opportunities than others but that's fine and the students feel fine about it too. Almost all of my daughters confidence was ripped away from her by one principle at her previous school. But just like jojo daughter, thanks to outside coaching her dancing and confidence improved enough to secure a place at other schools, with funding. I have not got a single negative thing to say about Central. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 We are only one term and 3 weeks into our Tring journey, but so far all the signs are good. I love the caring side of it, the teachers are approachable and reasonable, tough but fair. Great set up for Physio and Pilates. Performance opportunities, internal and external competitions. I am confident we have the right place for our DS. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottokeepworking Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Ribbons - he did get a contract. He had plenty of motivation to prove to himself that he wasn't as worthless as he was led to believe. He now dances in a large European national company where the director recognises and values his training and artistic qualities. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 So glad your son is doing well gotokeepworking, he's made of tough stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I suppose this problem of British students being compared unfavourably with foreign ones who've arrived at the upper school via international competitions is more likely to happen at RBS because that's the school that tends to attract the starry foreign students and the one most strongly represented at the competitions. Hopefully British kids at the other vocational schools aren't having to put up with this sort of thing as much. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I do think that everywhere will have its bad experiences and detractors .... A quick search on YouTube could put one off sending their children to Russian schools ,but of course doesn't tell the whole story . As JoJo and Primrose can testify their daughters have thrived in Moscow. I think as parents we have a duty to our children to watch,listen and react if things are not right. Why would you leave your children where they are unhappy and clearly not thriving ..... There are other training options out there. If nothing is said then things are unlikely to change - perhaps we as the adults involved ,need to look more closely at which options will suit our children's needs ,including their emotional well being. One size doesn't fit all and sometimes it's easy to get swept along with the excitement of dreams coming true. To date my daughter is very happy in her vocational school ,but if that were not the case,I would be in discussions with staff and if nothing positive came out of that I would look for alternatives. In my mind,you are only young once and you shouldn't spend that time feeling miserable. I have found that you have to give up all control over how they train and what they are doing. It feels alien but acceptable. What would not be acceptable would be thoughts of my child being put down on a daily basis and made to feel worthless,losing their confidence and love of dance. If your child is feeling like this please be brave & take action. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Very well said Kat09! Completely agree with you. ???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 DD had exactly the same experience as Tulip's. In our case it was A-levels that made her stay. I wanted to pull her out anyway, but she preferred to tough it out for 2 years of 6th form, and then went on to train elsewhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 I would echo Tulip - it is incredibly hard for parents to raise issues with the school as there is always the fear that it will make things worse for your child. Also, a lot of these issues are part of the culture and often can be easily explained away using choreographer casting decisions as an excuse (even though it is the school's recommendation in the first place!). Also, parents don't see each other very often at 6th form and unless you know people from before, it can feel very isolated and as gottokeepworking says, it may feel like you're the only one, until you find out too late that you're not. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I will actually reveal one kind of situation we had to deal with. When my daughter was about 14 I noticed that she was starting to become very fixated on her food and portions. She was only very tiny naturally anyway. I was very anxious and I phoned the principle to raise my concerns, I was actually tearful. Firstly and I will never forget it she said is this important as I have a meeting to go to. I explained about my daughters help and the principle said it was not their department take it up with the nurse. I was horrified, what we were hoping for was her class teacher who she was very close with, to explain that my daughter didn't need to cut back on food and calories, just that at that point would have been enough. Did ANYTHING happen, no, it took us and her private outside ballet teacher to put things right. I will have to stop thinking of our experiences there as I can feel my blood beginning to boil as it bring back memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 That is horrifying, Tulip. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regattah Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Luckily we were only year 7 when we noticed the signs - early enough to swap schools .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regattah Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 So pleased that the effects don't seem to be long lasting, Tulip. She's loving where she is now, isn't she? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Any point naming and shaming this place? If both Regattah and Tulip's dcs had a really bad time there, it might be a a public service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 It can't be easy changing vocational schools as there are so few of them and so few places become available other than in year 12 (and it's not easy then, particularly if you have lost a lot of confidence and perhaps not made as much progress as you should have done as a result). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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