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British students lack motivation.....


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When my dd was a RBS associate and did classes with the Royal faculty they were hands on. I believe that they are trained well there. RBS have a 100% graduate list of students getting jobs. However RBS are very quick to get rid of students who dont appear to be benefiting from their training and that can be interpreted in many ways. I believe in some cases that many of the students just needed more teacher time to grow into their bodies and abilities. Once again the confidence of those students must be so low. I must be correct in what I am saying as so many of the assessed out students have continued their training elsewhere and have sucessfully gained professional contracts. During the audition process so many extremely talented dancers are overlooked due to them not being quite right for RBS. I think what I am trying to say is that if they nurtured their students more and instilled and built confidence every step of the way. If they instilled a desire to want more and to be pushed more then maybe so many more would be selected for upper school. Its not okay to say students lack motivation. Whose fault is that? They were certainly motivated enough to audition for the school and probably worked their socks off to get to that stage. The schools themselves need to look at who is to blame for this lack of motivation as I dont think the students should be blamed.

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I saw a girl who had been assessed out of the Royal (she was not chosen to go on to Upper School) at a Yorkshire Ballet Summer school once.

I could not take my eyes of her she had such quality IMO.

 

She was probably not the most perfect build for the Royal I think (right sort of height though) and I found it very disheartening if this was in any way part of her de selection.

 

Would Lynn Seymour have got in to Upper School these days .......one of the best the Royal has had over the years.

 

(I know she went on to train somewhere else so hopefully others will see the quality in her)

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Well, there must be some British students who are not very motivated and enjoy the accolade of being at vocational school rather than a 'normal' school. However, they won't last long and will eventually be assessed out or fail to gain a place at upper school. However, Powney is not saying this; he is saying that British students *in general* lack motivation. A culture of fear (centred on negative criticism, impatience with students who are struggling, loss of interest in the less talented students in the class and, most of all, the ever present threat of being assessed out) is not conducive to creating confident dancers who dance with flair and enjoyment. The current system seems to be a curious blend of cautiousness and negativity. It sounds to me as if negative rather than positive feedback is used and that students are ever fearful of getting things wrong. Failure is an important part of learning otherwise you never stretch yourself. ADs don't want fearful or nervous dancers and the schools shouldn't be producing them.

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Our Russian teacher in Brighton continually changes the lines over in the class...eg: if there are 4 lines the initial front goes to the back and the back comes forward and so on.

This means you cannot hide and the teacher gets a good look at everyone.

 

In her class last year there were some extremely talented young girls......who are now finishing training in vocational establishments......and I know for sure these girls lived and breathed ballet.....but also in her class were older members like myself ....amateurs...but with also a couple of ex dancers and teachers.

 

The point is this teacher gave equal consideration in this general class to EVERYBODY in it and all needed different bits and sorts of advice.

 

To me this is a mark of an excellent teacher and within reason it is their job to get the very best out of ALL the students in their care not just a couple of highly talented ones ....who will always be there.

Edited by LinMM
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I have to admit that the Bolshoi have end of year assesments and they do asses out. A panel formally watch class and the students are told straight away. I am certain that conduct is taken into consideration throughout the year. The teachers during class dont mince their words either. Teachers say what they mean rather than playing mind games. They are sympathetic to when girls might be menstrating and they are allowed to sit out of class during these times. The teachers are very firm but also affectionate with the students. My dds teacher cried with my dd when she decided to leave. She also held her in her arms for quite some time.

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I had a glance at that Dancing Times article yesterday evening. I was struck by Powney's comment that he wanted to see the students 'actually dance', whatever that means. Ballet has moved on from Margot Fonteyn's day and much more athleticism and virtuosity is required in all companies and that includes the RB. A lot of modern choreography requires high extensions and extreme plasticity. Audiences want to see the tricks and, in fact, there are plenty of tricks anyway in the old classics such as Swan Lake, Don Quixote and Le Corsaire. Even the SPF variation contains multiple fouettes. There are greater demands on the men too. They are expected to jump higher and perform all sorts of aerial tricks. No longer are they just there to display their ballerina and do a few low lifts. Modern choreographers love high and complex lifts. I've seen some incredibly scary looking lifts, for example, ballerinas being flipped over with one arm (Liam Scarlett in No Man's Land for ENB - my heart was in my mouth when Max Westwell did this) or tossed and twisted in the air (Eagling's Nutcracker and Acosta's Don Q). Then there are the no doubt exhausting running lifts (Deane's in-the-round R&J at the RAH) and the 'dragging round the body' type lifts beloved by MacMillan. All these lifts require almost superhuman strength, control and athleticism. I think that the RBS (and the other schools) need to take a look at their training and make sure that it matches the requirements of the companies. Recently, I read an article about what companies feel the schools should be doing better and the same two things were mentioned by several ADs: the need for greater proficiency in partnering and the need for better pointe work (greater articulation through the foot was referred to by one). I should mention that these ADs were not all in the UK.

 

I'd always been led to believe that the lower level lifts are much harder and overhead lifts can be much easier.  Obviously elements can be added to lifts that make them more complex.

 

In BRB's Nutcracker, at the end of the Arabian Dance the Arabian lady is carried off sitting on the upraised hands of one dancer with a second holding her feet (as though she is reclining on a chaise longue) - it looks spectacular but when we asked a dancer who did the "bum lift" element he said it was one of the easier lifts.

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Our training in the UK can't be that bad as there wouldn't be as many talented foreign students wanting to train here. UK is known for its strong technical training and a lot of our home grown students do go on to get jobs. If I was going to reflect on training experience, then I would only be able to talk fr experience about two schools, as that is where my daughter trained. I would not be able to discuss traing from other schools as that would only be hear say. I am glad that my daughter is British trained and I am proud that she has worked extremely hard and has always appreciated her place at vocational school. I actually believe at Central the training is excellent. Graduates have gone on to do very well. If training is to change to keep up with what choreographers require then great, but please don't lose our identity along the way.

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Primrose I find your insight into The Bolshoi very interesting !!

After reading the interview I felt ,apart from a very sweeping statement made by Mr Powney, it sounded like he intends to implement some positive changes .

 

I also feel that the 'hands on ' approach to training and correcting students is more beneficial for some.

Only this week my dd had a rehab style lesson with a teacher that was new to her , she was physically manoeuvred into position , my dd appeared to grow another 3 inches before my eyes and looked every inch the ballerina .

After class I asked her if her regular teachers had corrected her on weight placement "yes" she replied " but I didn't really know what they meant".

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I wonder if the British schools do specific gymnastic classes where students are shown properly how to stretch and build strenght. I am not talking about somersaults here but about building core strenght etc. Those clips you see of little Russian children hanging off climbing equipment bars still happen. My dd under the instruction of the teacher did this most days. They were shown how to do the splits and back exercises. This was all in a specific class. They used to also have acting classes several times a week. They were shown how to express themselves through mime. They then had historical dance classes as well as duet. They also had a full academic programne on top of this. My dd did not have these classes at her lower voc school and I know that the upper schools do not do these gym and acting classes. Class sizes are also small between 9 and 12 pupils in my dds class.

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My dd has also had a lesson this week with the same teacher as Hairbelles dd - some of the hands on corrections were so simple but made a huge difference. Weight placement seems to be a bit of an issue (too far back)

 

My dd is one who had lost confidence, she has a few stumbling blocks & it's very interesting to hear what you say about menstruation primrose (the day of your assessment must be the worst ever to start you petiods for the first time poor dd)

 

Dd gets no gymnastic type training at her school & it's an area she wants to work at to give versatility but there are no opportunities (unless she breaks the rules like some others do & goes to a glitzy comp school on her day off (Sunday)

 

Her flexibility has massively improved but only because I doesn't ££££s on Lisa Howell's programme.

 

There are some teachers at her school who really take the time to ensure each student understands things but there are many times that dd has come home & said that when she put her hand up as she didn't understand something she was ignored or told to put IT down.

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I once watched classes in a summer school in the States. A Russian teacher gave a character class and she absolutely lammed into one poor girl. The student was working really hard and was an excellent dancer, but she couldn't catch something in a step and instead of just showing her what she was doing wrong, the teacher screamed at her and verbally abused her. She made her keep doing the step over and over and of course every time she did it wrong yet again. Eventually the teacher did what she should have done in the first place - showed her what she was doing wrong - and the girl then did the step perfectly, although simultaneously crying her eyes out. I was horrified at what I had witnessed. What I found strange was that none of the parents watching were worried about this incident. And it was such a waste of valuable class time. If there are still teachers out there behaving like that I'm not surprised that students lack motivation

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By the way I find it absurd that ballet teachers are not allowed to touch their students in the UK. How on earth can teachers correct properly and make them understand what we want? If we touch them naturally and in a matter of fact way, I can't see why it would upset students or cause problems. I feel that if I were to ask permission every time I touched a student, it would imply that I was intending to do something inapropriate, which obviously I'm not. I'm a very "hands on" teacher and can't imagine teaching any other way. A pupil of mine moved to London and she found it very difficult to adjust to the rather distant approach of her teacher at Academy Headquarters. The personal touch was missing and she felt very much on her own. You can keep a suitable distance without being distant.

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To my knowledge my daughter receives hands on teaching. The teachers who are from different parts of the world are encouraging. There is mutual respect as they are all adults. The school offers ballet, point, rep, pas de deux, contemporary, singing lessons, drama and Pilates. They also have personal coaching in the third year. There is a physiotherapist on site everyday alongside other professionals eg councillors for emotional needs. I am not saying that All the schools offer this, but my daughters school does. I don't know about Royal, ENB or Rambert (upper school only), regarding what is on offer there. But I do stress that if British training isn't doing enough then why is there an ever increasing number of foreigners fighter for these places in Britain. The schools that are providing a disservice to their students should be reported, or named and shamed. All students are paying a lot of money for a service even with a scholarship, it would be very sad if a student was robbed of their chances due to poor teaching and encouragent. A final point regarding In particular lower vocational pupils, children learn in lots of different ways and some who are pushed to extreme at such a young age will be broken and emotionally damaged. Others may thrive. A good teacher should hopefully have a skill to nurture every student in their own unique way. I do know of a vocational school where lots of good dancers were ignored by orders of the principle. The other teachers disagreed with this principle, but nothing changed and never will until that principle has left. Other students who are the cream de la cream would Ofcourse rightfully disagree for themselves personally.

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Normally you wouldn't have to ask a student EVERY time you needed to touch them.

It's just an agreement that this is part of the class teaching sometimes so once permission has been generally given it doesn't have to be given on every occasion.

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Teachers absolutely ARE allowed to touch students.

 

Different organisations issue best practice guidelines which tends to be " I'm going to do this, to achieve this, is that ok" though if it's just a simple arm position correction then they may not bother.

 

Dh as a male teacher is naturally cautious especially in one to one situations & he tries to get a "chaperone " in if he needs to do any corrections by touch. As a vocal teacher IT is often the shoulders, abdomen, neck ec, sometimes the chest but he tries to find alternative ways of getting the student to feel what is correct.

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In answer to the 'why do foreign students want to come and train in the UK' question. I would answer that it is due to the amazing facilities the schools have compared to non European schools, and the exposure that finalists and graduates enjoy. I quote from Dance Europe, an article that Carlos Forcada wrote about the Cuban Ballet Festival in Havana. " ....watched this remarkable race of dancers who do not have half the resources of our European companies, but who dance with a passion, artistry and commitment that many of our dancers lack "....(so perhaps it is purely a cultural thing)

 

I think that vocational school teachers at least are still hands on...Of course a teacher should be able to explain verbally what it is they want, but it is, in my opinion faster and more efficient to 'place' the student physically. Pictures, my DH also teaches and was recently guesting at a school where he was voice coaching - as he didn't know the students (teenage) he felt the need to call in a female teaching assistant before placing his hands on the students to explain a certain breathing technique. A sensible move in my opinion.

 

Dance students are very aware of who is more gifted / talented in the class, but for the teacher to ignore the other talented (but perhaps in the teacher's opinion 'less talented' students) is dreadful - I know, I went through it with a couple of teachers. It can be soul destroying. Teaching approaches need to be sensitive to the students. I am especially grateful to two of my teachers, both very different. One drilled us over and over in clean and proper technique and would explain everything so wonderfully and clearly, another (when we were graduates) would mark exercises with their hands at super high speed and sometimes make you sit out if you didn't pick it up more or less instantly. For me the combination worked and served me well.

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I have come late to this interesting thread and someone earlier asked about DKs experience of training abroad Vs UK. I think it's difficult to answer as DS never applied for vocational school in the UK but a few things I have noticed along the way

 

DSs Russian teachers were fairly scathing about the teaching at RBS lower school (less so about the Upper School)- that's just their opinion I guess. Wasn't clear if is the school or the english style they were unimpressed with.

 

DSs only direct experience of RBS was summer school at covent garden and he really didn't take to it - but of course lots of people consider summer schools to be very different to the main school (eg number of people in the class).

 

I get the impression that vocational schools in the UK learn a much wider variety of dance types than DS experienced in his school in the US- 99% of all his performances are classical ballet variations- in a 2 hr show there may be 2 contemporary pieces and maybe one character/folk. In a week there is only one contemporary class and one character, the rest of the time is spent in classical ballet.

 

Academics are such as to achieve high school graduation (supposedly equivalent to A levels)- they do the min number of subjects to get to this level so basically have to pass all the subjects they take (no room for failing at a subject you arent good at which has been a challenge for my maths dyslexic son!). I think the hours seem roughly comparable to UK schedules.

 

DS school has saturday ballet class so only 1.5 days off a week. Rehearsals are on top of regular class (evenings, sat afternoons) but academic classes finish a couple of weeks before the end of term so they do nothing but performance rehearsals and ballet class for 4 weeks a year. He also does other performances here and there and I would say since being a senior (upper school age) has had 2-3 evenings a week in rehearsal for something. Don't know how this compares with UK.

 

Re the level of difficulty/advancement compares as an example most of the able students at DSs school (remember no asssessing out, so the ability level would be expected to be broader) would be performing a demanding classical variation by 14/15. The school put on a cut down version of Sleeping Beauty 2 years ago (excluded mainly some general corps de ballet type bits, included all the main solos), Aurora was aged 14 (the year before the same student did Giselle Act 2). I do recall seeing the competition in the BBC Wales Elmhurst School documentary where a featured 15 year old boy got to the school's competition final- his variation seemed fairly basic by comparison with 15 year old boys in DSs school (at that age, after 18 months in vocational school, DS did PDDs and codas from Sleeping Beauty and Oceans and Pearls). In the last few years I have seen the seniors (upper school age) perform grand pas or whole acts from Giselle, Nutcracker, Sylphide, Firebird and Sleeping Beauty. The younger children perform classical pieces on pointe eg nutcracker PDT, Ribbon dance etc. I am a ballet ignoramus so have no idea how advanced these are thought to be....

 

DSs school doesnt go in for competitions all that much- but recently has a new AD and a few more are doing YAGP or Lausanne this year. There is a bit of a belief that it detracts from normal training- and they do 2 major performances a year at the school so they do already get a lot of performance experience (which as I said I almost all classical ballet).

 

As far as foreign students wanting to come to the UK I think we have to consider that in some countries there aren't equivalent vocational schools (so in the US there are also very many students from eg Japan and Korea), and also UK is seen as an accessible stepping stone into European ballet companies. I guess most countries teach english as a foreign language so USA and UK are bound to be easier for students with some knowledge of the language. And Royal ballet has a fabulous rep and of course you are more likely to be seen if you are in the upper school so of course it's going to be a prime place to apply. I wonder what the proportion of foreign students are at other equivalent schools (POB, Dutch, Cranko, Danish etc) and if its lower then why is this? I personally feel if a school is state funded there is no reason why they shouldn't be required to have a certain minimum proportion of UK students. If this caused RBSs graduate employment rate to fall (as they seem to believe home grown students aren't as good or they woudl accept more of them) this would immediately show up any deficiencies in the school's own teaching. I don't see why they should be allowed to boast high employment figures for children many of whom have received 5 or more years training elsewhere....

 

Although I haven't read the article (Dancing Times membership lapsed- damn!) it seems to me that publicly dissing your own students and by inference a whole country, after only 6 months or so at the school, is both unfair and unkind. If I had a student in the UK I would be spitting with fury.

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I have been reading this thread with interest also. I have not read the article either as I don't get the DT.

We have similar issues at Canadas NBS. A pianist at the school once told me how discouraged he felt that our students weren't more aggressive in auditions. He couldn't decide if it was complacency in their ability or lack of confidence to say "hey look at me!" We too, deal with foreign students, winners of the Prix or YAGP getting scholarships and revered for their performance skills (tricks and turns) and the long-time students sometimes feel disregarded by this when the new students are awarded the prime roles because they have more experience in PDD and performance.

Regarding Christopher Powney, may I add that the Dutch Academy has become the most requested school that our graduates seek for their post-graduate year of training so he must be doing something right with training.

CeliB hit it on the head when she wrote: 

"... UK is seen as an accessible stepping stone into European ballet companies. I guess most countries teach english as a foreign language so USA and UK are bound to be easier for students with some knowledge of the language. And Royal ballet has a fabulous rep and of course you are more likely to be seen if you are in the upper school so of course it's going to be a prime place to apply"

Regardless of training, RBS has one of the best employment rates I have seen. So of course foreign students want to get in before the end and have that on their resume.

But back to the issue, maybe Christopher Powney's comments have offended but in the long run, I wonder if maybe shaking things up will move RBS's UK students to higher levels.

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It's interesting to read a view from Canada. I think that, like the British, Canadians are naturally more reticent than many other nationalities, particularly their nearest neighbours. If the international students are favoured because they have more pdd and performance experience then perhaps the NBS needs to revise its curriculum. Of course, if (as happens at the RBS) many of the international students come into the schools on the back of wins at international competitions they are going to arrive with bags of confidence and an aura of success about them which, unsurprisingly, may be intimidating to home grown students who have been beavering away in the studio and perhaps done little other than a bit of national dancing and some contemporary or jazz dance in front of an audience for the past 5 years.

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In case some members don't look at other sections of the forum, in the Ballet/Dance News and Information section, there seem to be similar concerns in St Petersburg... about Vaganova graduates.

 

http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/8583-mariinskys-yuri-fateyevs-opinion-on-vaganova-graduates-in-dancing-times-interview/#entry113487

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Interesting comments about Vaganova. Perhaps it is us parents and our need to raise our children with a more rounded upbringing as well as maintaining academic standards. Perhaps we still want the same results as past generations that didn't share the same focus, but without sacrificing everything. Safe to say the transition maybe hasn't fully caught up to company expectations? Just thinking out loud.

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Interesting point audsjcanuck- I remember DDs chinese olympic diving coach saying british divers lacked motivation as they had too many other competing (possibly better) career opportunities (exactly what we are TRYING so hard to provide- how ironic). In China being an olympic diver conferred unimaginable glory and wealth (of course only if you succeed and WIN!!!) so they were prepared to suffer all sorts of deprivations whihc he saw UK parents would not allow- eg going to boarding school aged 6, training 10 hrs a day 7 days a week etc.... I have always imagined Russian ballet dancers having a similar motivation (though maybe less so nowadays)...

So i suppose by comparison with these severe regimes UK children might seem less desperately motivated. But I find it hard to see other western European countries being much different to ours....

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I read the Dancing Times article and found it really interesting. Aside from the unfortunate comments on 'sense of entitlement', I did think his comments on over-schooling and the need to perform were right on. I recently uploaded to the forum a post from my daughter's blog - A day I the life of a Bolshoi Academy student - which demonstrates how intensive and varied the dance training is there. Six days a week and including academics (in Russian)!

 

In addition, it also demonstrates how much opportunity the students at the Bolshoi get to perform - 2 shows a year, a graduation show, 2 full length ballet productions, character festivals, tours etc. - hence reinforcing Christopher Powney's point about developing artistry and performance capability! My DD has experience of the UK vocational system as well as the Bolshoi - and this wasn't the case in her UK school.

 

She has improved immensely in her three years so far at the Bolshoi, visible even to a non-dancer like myself! This is largely down to the fact that she feels valued and nurtured. It's also very open at the Bolshoi. When I go over to visit, I am able to go and see as many of my daughter's classes as I like. The teachers all take time to speak to me (via a translator) and are really genuinely pleased that I am watching their classes! The students are free to enter competitions if they choose - and their teachers will spend time helping them with variations. The graduation year exams are performed in public on the stage. The Academy has nothing to hide. I didn't get this sense of openness and access as a parent when my DD was training in the UK.

 

Whilst my daughter has made lots of progress in her three years at the Bolshoi, she is in awe of the Russian students who have trained there for many more years. She says they are the stars of the future - and they have an obvious flair and confidence. It's not surprising that the artistic directors of the top Russian companies (and elsewhere) watch their exams and final graduation performances and snap them up.

 

So our experience of Russian training has been very positive and I think offers lots to learn from!

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I finally got my DT this morning and eagerly read the article.  I agree with JOJo that, apart from the bit about lacking motivation, which he did say in an almost tentative manner, I found the article to be quite upbeat and positive.  He said that 70% of the dancers in the company are UK trained students and that he would only take foreign students to the school if there was room and not at the expense of UK applicants, who met the school's standards, so that sounds alright. Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that UK dance students may not have reached a high enough standard by audition time at 16, whereas overseas students have.  There does seem to be a difficulty in building up a full schedule of dance lessons if teenagers are only attending after school or saturday classes, rather than a full time arts school.  I know that a student of mine who moved to London had real problems in finding enough classes to do even at Academy Headquarters - she never managed to make it up to the lessons she would have been doing had she stayed at our school.  She transferred this year to Arts Ed full time and is so happy to finally get to dance more.

 

 I very much agree with his wanting to bring back more artistry and performing qualities. As he noted - globally we have gone through a period of extreme athleticism with a lack of communication to the audience.  I think that's true too - I remember seeing the Basel Ballet in a piece set to Bach's Goldenberg Variations.  The dancers were all brilliant, with perfect physique and feet and extremely flexible, but they were absolute clones of each other and I personally found it boring. 

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Interesting point audsjcanuck- I remember DDs chinese olympic diving coach saying british divers lacked motivation as they had too many other competing (possibly better) career opportunities (exactly what we are TRYING so hard to provide- how ironic). In China being an olympic diver conferred unimaginable glory and wealth (of course only if you succeed and WIN!!!) so they were prepared to suffer all sorts of deprivations whihc he saw UK parents would not allow- eg going to boarding school aged 6, training 10 hrs a day 7 days a week etc.... I have always imagined Russian ballet dancers having a similar motivation (though maybe less so nowadays)...

So i suppose by comparison with these severe regimes UK children might seem less desperately motivated. But I find it hard to see other western European countries being much different to ours....

That's a very good point CeliB. I suppose in some countries success in artistic or sporting pursuits is a way out of poverty, not just for an individual child but possibly for their entire family. Here, on the other hand,having a child with an interest and talent in those same fields is a fast track to financial misfortune for many families. It must make a difference.
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