British students lack motivation.....

[Stirrups36]

Fewer students has a LOT to do with it in my opinion as well CeliB

 

Statistically, there are going to be more Russian, Chinese, Japenese dancers because, Well, there are just more Russians, Chinese, Japanese people!

[A Proud Mother]

So disappointing to read Christopher Powney's interview in Dancing Times in which he questions the motivation of British students and says that there can be an element of sitting back on their laurels and a sense of entitlement.

 

In my experience the British students at top vocational schools have generally fought so hard to get there and shown unprecedented levels of focus, motivation and tenacity to keep going in spite of the fact that they constantly get overlooked in favour of students from abroad with their amazing competition-winning hyperextensions etc.

 

It's not lack of motivation, if anything it's lack of confidence due to lack of opportunity or encouragement!

OH THIS IS SO TRUE Ribbons...  Some students just get their souls ripped out at these vocational school and their confidence hits rock bottom.. The students work so hard and do have motivation as they don't give up!!!!!

[Lisa O`Brien]

Sophika,so sorry to hear your DD has given up. Was this very recently?

[betterankles]

Far too many students (IMO in the so called 'vocational schools'), are given hope that they will become professional dancers when often this is unrealistic.  Some unexpected ones may make it, but those will be the kind who react to being told it is most unlikely, by being determined to prove this wrong - so being more or less 'assessed out' will only be a positive thing.

 

As for others - the few who have real talent - physical AND mental - to become professional dancers, the sooner they learn to live with the so called 'stress' of possibly being assessed out, the better.   If they become professional dancers, their whole careers will be of virtually auditioning every day - for a place in a company, for being in the corps of a ballet, for a role, to keep a role, to be promoted, to get corrections (and praise) in class, rehearsal and performance, to be performing on a first night - and if and when a principal, it is the same thing - to be in a creation, to work with a certain choreographer.... the list is endless...

 

And the joy (oh yes, together with the stress, the positive stress) is endless for those who are born to dance!

 

If used to it from an early age, and able to withstand the shocks and the disappointments, it is an exciting and wonderful life - if a shock and unprepared it is indeed stressful in a negative way - and the life of a professional dancer surely not worth living !

 

Ballet training is good for all, but should be taught differently to those who do it recreationally, and those with little hope of becoming professional should certainly go the 'well rounded' route.   

 

While those who clearly or potentially have the real thing, should have good education of course, until age 16, while giving them time to concentrate on their ballet technique, but also all related subjects, such as music, knowledge of the other arts, drama, mime, character dance, history of the arts etc.   Then from 16, forget the 'rounded education' bit, and get on with the dance and dance related subjects, and those of particular interest to the individual student.

 

It is well known that ex dancers do extremely well in a range of professions, when they stop, whether having been professional dancers, or whether for injury or other reasons they never actually are in a company.    Many go into computing (curiously), and as I say a range of other professions, including totally undone related ones.    

 

The professionalism, commitment and concentration that they have learned by studying ballet towards a professional level regularly, enables them to utilise these (rather unusual these daysl) assets, and do very well in other fields of life.

 

But the idea of doing without 'assessing out' for the TRULY vocational students is completely unrealistic and counter productive.  

 

While clearly there is no need to assess out those who are taking class recreationally. 

 

Incidentally how about the vocational students getting a 'well rounded' education in their ballet training - which some of the mentioned  'foreign' dancers do by completing their dance education in the UK, thus gaining some of the UK sense of style/refinement or whatever it is, on top of their virtuosity learned in South America, Spain, Cuba, China, Korea or Japan?   Thus UK students say from age 16 or so,  could go to one of these countries to add to their palette in similar way...

[FLOSS]

I know that one or two people have picked up what Yuri Fateyev has said about the Vaganova's graduates only being suitable for corps work as evidence that this prestigious  school has difficulties similar to those that are said to be present in schools here.The statement may not be all that it seems.It may have more to do with justifying the appointment of Nicolai Tsiskaridze as rector of the Vaganova and the decision of talented Vaganova graduates not to join the Mariinsky than  the school's ability to produce dancers of quality. You might want to ask yourself why, if the Vaganova's graduates are so poor, the Bolshoi has been recruiting them? Are Obratsova and Smirnova only suited for corps work?

 

It must be far easier for the Mr Fateyev's to explain the failure to recruit Vaganova graduates who are clearly destined for great things by denying their existence than admitting that the dancers have voted with their feet.If you admit that talented dancers did not want to join the Mariinsky that might be seen as being disloyal to Gergiev who is regarded by many as the real boss of the Mariinsky. It would be unlikely to lead to awkward questions being asked about recruitment to the company or the company's choice of repertory but it certainly would displease the powers that be.

[sophika9899]

Yes, the quays, she did a term at Elmhurst and left at christmas.

[ZooZoo]

Sophika  - whilst it must have been extremely unsettling for you all to have this happen, your daughter must have a great force of will/self belief.  It would have been  "easier" to just keep going with vocational school than to be brave enough to make the break when she realised she did not want to continue.  I bet she will look back one day and feel really proud she was able to do that and start walking down a different path.

[Tulip]

Reading dancing times, dancer junior Souza describes his early training in Brazil taught him quantity- how to do many pirrouets, turns, jetes when he came to Britain ENB - it was all about quality - clean technique, expressive epaulement, not being over the top.

Clearly junor Souza has benefited two different systems of training making him the dancer he is today. Not once does he say that his training was better in Brazil, but coupled with ENBs training he went on to achieve much more in his career so far.

[Dance*is*life]

Betterankles - "The professionalism, commitment and concentration that they have learned by studying ballet towards a professional level regularly, enables them to utilise these (rather unusual these days!) assets, and do very well in other fields of life."

 

How true that is!

 

For a time, inbetween dancing jobs I used to work as a temp in various offices. I remember working in the local social services office and having to type up the social workers' handwritten reports. I found them so fascinating that I just sat and got through them at top speed, much to the chagrin of the other typists there! They told me in no uncertain terms to slow down, because I was jeopardising their jobs by working so quickly. I didn't know what to do with myself - I was used to always working full out - not marking!!!!

[primrose]

Did he do all of his training in Brazil and just two years at ENB.

[Tulip]

He came to Britain at 15.

[BalletDad10]

Some wonderful posts on this thread of great interest to us. DD trains in Japan, where we live, and does summer schools in the UK. I think she benefits from having both. It's all been said except perhaps to remind ourselves that every child is different so they don't ALL have to do this at 11 and that at 16, just when they're ready. There are many roads to the top, just read a few profiles of professional ballet dancers. Like many parents I want her to find her own path, and enjoy a variety of dance and life experiences along the way, wherever it leads. 

[FLOSS]

Mr Powney has only been in post for a short time.His career history, switching between companies and schools,suggests that he does not stay anywhere for long; so it will be fascinating to see whether he remains at the RBS for any length of time. As he taught at the school during his predecessor's directorship before going to Holland to teach, his directorship may not mean dramatic changes at the school. 

 

He has said that he wants to give his students more opportunity to gain stage experience. I am not sure whether he believes that saying this will make him sound innovative. Using students in the corps and to play courtiers is nothing new. He has also said that the school is training for long careers. Does he intend that statement to act as a counter to those who express concern that foreign schools seem to produce dancers with exceptional technical skills? Perhaps the most interesting thing is that he wants teachers from White Lodge to give some classes at the Upper School and those at the Upper School to give classes at the Lower School.This seems to suggest that he feels that the two schools have not always perceived themselves to be part of one organisation. If he believes that the two schools have, on occasion, each been operating in a vacuum, he might believe that this goes some way to explain why comparatively few Lower School students make it into the Upper School.Perhaps his reference to a "sense of entitlement" is no more than an inept attempt to contrast the hunger to dance openly expressed by overseas students, most of whom have not had training at residential school and some of whom have made the decision to pursue a career in dance in their mid teens, with the reticence of local students. But might it be possible that the unfortunate phrase has got something to do with a disconnect between the schools that has resulted in the Lower School failing to get their students to understand the standard required to enter the Upper School and to train them to achieve it? I don't know.

 

One thing I do know is that while the appointment of a new director may have some immediate effects,the overall impact on the whole school may take a lot longer to manifest itself. If a significant number of Lower School students were to make it into the Upper School in the next couple of years I wonder who would have been most responsible for their success Mr Powney or his predecessor? The answer is almost certainly both but it is most likely to be reported as a success for the new director's regime.

[Sadielou]

Mr Powney has only been in the job a very short time so I guess we should give him a chance and see what develops. He has said he will be far more open with parents and children re assessments and the child's potential to carry on in this business, but we will no know how this pans out till February. He also said that he will take British students first and places will only be given to foreign students if places are available. Although this sounds encouraging it is of course totally subjective as to who deserves a place or not, two foreign children (both excellent competition dancers who can be seen on you tube) have started at White Lodge this January which seemed to totally contradict his former comment as he cannot know yet how good the British children are who will be auditioning for places this month. The saddest thing is that the kids at WL work their arses off for little or no praise they are constantly being told they are not good enough are bombarded in this day and age with you tube videos of wonder kids and now have them on their door step.  When these brilliant kids turn up at WL or the Upper School the same teachers that have have spent hours on placing and turnout are suddenly drooling over the expertise of these new kids, and have been quoted to say to their old charges, "Why can't you do this" The simple answer should be "Because you won't allow us to do it and haven't trained us to do it" The RBS have supposedly chosen the 12 best children of what ever age group and gender in the country, who it should follow have the facility and potential to be moulded in to the dancers that the RBS are looking for. In my opinion what Mr Powney should be looking at, is what his staff are teaching and seriously considering what sort of Dancers they are churning out and decide once and for all what they really want to see. If the case was that the staff at the RBS made a point of saying to their current students that "child X can do multiple tricks and perform brilliantly, but doesn't have your placing and technique, which is what we at RBS are striving for" perhaps the current students could comprehend why they are spending hours over the simplest little tendu. But this is of course not the case, and current students are becoming despondent, several to the stage of giving up dancing altogether because they "don't see the point and don't love it anymore" Which is extremely sad. I also think that when the Graduate job list is published the school should be made to admit how long these Graduates actually trained with the RBS, as I know the list would then not look quite so favourable on the school and its training.  

[amos73]

Hi Sadielou

 

As a mother of young dd who will audition for schools next year (she is currently year 5) I was very interested to read what you say about Mr Powney, and more importantly, the teaching at the RBS.

Are you at the school, or have DC there?

If it really is the case that teachers have asked the students why they can't do what the foreign students can do I find it utterly disheartening.

 

My DD had a Russian teacher who was all for her starting pointe work at nine, she insisted she was strong enough, etc. but her new school, (who act as a feeder for white lodge and have former RB dancers teaching there) have her in a demi pointe class. She did do a little pointe work with old teacher but I am going with the teachers' at the new school thinking and she is back to demi pointe. Not to say they are wrong at all, BUT, I think it is really interesting that the wonder kids from abroad will have all been on pointe for a few years before coming to WL and the teachers drool over their 'fireworks' yet won't allow students in UK to operate at that level at the same age, so it is hardly surprising they are not as advanced as the international students. It really is so disheartening.

 

If my DD was already at vocational school and I was reading this I would be so frustrated. As you say, surely they need to decide what they REALLY want from students, and train them accordingly.

 

By the way, I am not saying it is disheartening that they won't let students go on pointe at a younger age, I do think DD is better off working on demi pointe for longer and getting better technique before going on pointe, but if this is one example of how the training in the UK is not in sync with what the schools and companies are impressed by in international students and compare the UK students unfavourably to, this is a major problem.

Edited January 22, 2015 by amos73

[drdance]

Just as an aside - I'd love to know which school is a 'feeder for White Lodge' (I have a hunch), and what RBS think about it being described as such?! 

 but her new school, (who act as a feeder for white lodge and have former RB dancers teaching there) have her in a demi pointe class. 

[FLOSS]

I have always understood that the reluctance to allow young students undertake pointe work at an early age was because of the damage that can be done to the feet if it is undertaken at a really young age. I seem to recall de Valois writing that her feet had been saved by Espinosa after they had been damaged by undertaking pointe work when too young.

 

I am not setting anyone up to do this,and perhaps the letter has already been written but I can't help feeling that a letter to the Dancing Times with even a fraction of the points raised in this discussion would bring this debate into the open and might force both the school and the Covent Garden company to acknowledge some of the concerns raised.It is too easy for both institutions to behave as if this was simply a matter of concern for them and no one else.If it finds its way into the general press this topic is most likely to be discussed in terms of elite art forms, training cost and the lack of indigenous Principal dancers with a first paragraph describing the sylvan setting of White Lodge and the second, the cost of stalls seats at Covent Garden.It is most unlikely to ask any questions about the quality of the teaching.or to ask what part inadequate training plays in the rate of attrition .

I think that anyone interested in ballet understands that heartbreak and disappointment are inevitable in a training system where a proportion of students will fail to meet the required standard for any number of reasons some of which will be beyond anyone's control, such as a failure to grow tall enough. In an article by Luke Jennings published in the Observer in 2012 Jane Hackett the former director of the ENB school expressed the opinion that the RBS does not make the best dance artists it can of the children it selects.The article left me wondering what proportion of students are assessed out as a result of the student's irremediable failure to make the grade and what proportion leave because of a failure in teaching or the fear of failure? 

[JulieW]

That intrigued me too drdance.  I'm sure RBS certainly don't call any school a "feeder school" - all students audition as individuals regardless of which local dance school they've gone to.  Some schools have more students than others who get into WL, but that's natural as there are some who attract strong students and have, perhaps, better teachers.

[rowan]

 

the wonder kids from abroad will have all been on pointe for a few years before coming to WL and the teachers drool over their 'fireworks'

 

 

 Is this actually true, though? Pointework at too early an age doesn't help much, and can hinder greatly. There are lots of other things kids can be learning in ballet, though, that make them more "advanced" that don't include early pointework. Maybe those are the things that need concentrating on.

[amos73]

Hi Rowan

 

I didn't say I agreed with it, one of the reasons we changed school was I didn't think it helped to go on pointe too early, as I stated at the bottom. However if you look at footage on youtube of any of these international students who get taken on they are on pointe earlier, plus I have read on this forum about international students at lower school auditions doing pirouettes on pointe and UK students feeling inadequate etc. Pointe is not the be all and end all by any means, however any of the kids who win international competitions and get brought into UK schools are proficient on pointe. I was using it as an example of how the UK training differs to that abroad. 

[amos73]

Apologies - the school has high success rate at getting children into WL, at year 7 and above. Some of the teachers teach at JA too, and some were formerly dancers with the RB.

It was called 'feeder school' to me by teachers and parents there. I retract the statement!!!

[Sadielou]

In answer to your question amos 73 I do have a DC at the school as well as some students, and yes it is extremely frustrating to see and hear what is going on from the perspective of both a teacher and a parent. I know my Dc has/had huge potential as well as a lovely dance quality. The dance quality has all but disappeared and when asked to perform a simple role in my local ballet school Xmas workshop my DC was petrified because quote "I'm not good enough" The truth is students who are now in year 10 WL have NEVER throughout their whole time at WL performed classically on stage, unless you count the Defile which although lovely is truly blink and you miss. Otherwise all we have seen them do is Morris, Hungarian, Russian, Irish and Scottish, and this year I think we have Spanish to look forward to. Mr Powney was questioned about this lack of performance in a recent meeting and he said that " it was difficult for the school to find something that the students could perform classically as they were not always ready" whatever that means? very scary for us local dance teachers who bi-annually put children onstage dancing classically. If the 12 best in the country can't do it, perhaps we should give up now!  The question that followed was "Wouldn't it then be very difficult for the WL students when they graduated to their various Upper schools and were put into competition with those who had performed throughout their training years, to come up to the same level of performance as their new counterparts"? This question was not answered !  It was said however that Liam Scarlet is to choreograph a ballet for the whole school, we shall see, I shall be very interested to see who is chosen to do the main roles, if it is those children that have already had performing experience, it will be case and point. I know last year that Mr Scarlet chose a girl fresh from the Prix de Lausanne (2nd yr Upper school who had only been at the school for a term and half) to do the main role in his Upper school ballet. If I was a choreographer I too would pick the student that "performed the best" why or why then don't the RBS staff acknowledge this and make it an integral part of their training. Nobody is asking for flashy solos or 3 act ballets, just something that gives the children in the RBS Outreach words "A Chance to Dance" before it is too late. 

[JoJo]

Sadielou, I can very much relate to everything you have said!  My daughter was selected to attend a UK vocational school yet was constantly made to feel that she wasn't good enough!  I believe that if she hadn't discovered teachers external to her school to supplement their training she would have given up dancing - her passion - soon after she started her post-16 training.

 

I believe that her potential, lovely dance quality and performance was trained out of her - along with her confidence!  It took a while for her to get that back.  I agree it really has to be down to the training - the lack of nurture and support, the steadfast reliance on "safe" training and the seeming reluctance to show what all their students are capable of (through performances and competitions).

 

We are able to compare the UK training with the training she is now undertaking in Moscow.  There is no comparison - both in terms of her experience as a student and my experience as a parent.  Even though I have have much further to travel - there is no issue with getting to see my daughter's classes and she gets the opportunity to perform regularly - even if it just in second cast or rehearsals - and she is supported if she chooses to enter competitions.  I think that makes a vital difference - when she was at her UK vocational school I was lucky if I got to see her in one dance class per year and catch a two minute glimpse of her in the end of year performance - the only performance she would have the opportunity to take part in.

 

My daughter's ambition is to work for a ballet company - she recognises it is a very competitive world and will have to work hard to achieve this.  I do feel that when she completes her four year training in Moscow she will at least have a chance.  Something significant would have had to have changed for me to say the same had she stayed in the UK vocational system.

[aileen]

That seems a very unsatisfactory situation, Sadielou. I suspect that the problem is that many RB regulars (who don't have children at the RBS) like to watch the end of year shows and the School feels under pressure to put on a really polished performance rather than using the show as a 'training tool' with the attitude that the dancing will be far from perfect because the students are 'works in progress'. It's not surprising that the WL students become discouraged and start to doubt their own ability. Performing should be an integral part of the training and, if necessary, the performances should be closed to the general public.

[drdance]

But the RBS do an entire week of performances - some at the Linbury and some at the ROH. The Linbury ones tend to use WL students more, yet they still do very little ballet!

[taxi4ballet]

Do we need to see technical perfection from young students only part-way through their training? Classical ballet is a performing art. How are they going to develop their self-confidence, performance skills and artistic presentation if they aren't given the opportunity to perform often enough?

 

Edited for missed-out word!

Edited January 22, 2015 by taxi4ballet

[aileen]

That's the point, drdance; the younger students perform national dances rather than dances from the classical ballets.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I think in some ways we are all to blame. At the end of the year we are all scouring the reviews in Dancing Times & posting our own reviews on here of the end of year performances & comparing standards. So if course the schools want to show their students in the best light.

 

Saying that last year when dd was in year 7 her year group took part in a classical ballet (only a short section but still ballet,) a modern dance, a tap dance plus a choreographed grand entrance type piece.

[amos73]

 

 

I believe that her potential, lovely dance quality and performance was trained out of her - along with her confidence!  It took a while for her to get that back.  I agree it really has to be down to the training - the lack of nurture and support, the steadfast reliance on "safe" training and the seeming reluctance to show what all their students are capable of (through performances and competitions).

 

We are able to compare the UK training with the training she is now undertaking in Moscow.  There is no comparison - both in terms of her experience as a student and my experience as a parent.  Even though I have have much further to travel - there is no issue with getting to see my daughter's classes and she gets the opportunity to perform regularly - even if it just in second cast or rehearsals - and she is supported if she chooses to enter competitions.  I think that makes a vital difference - when she was at her UK vocational school I was lucky if I got to see her in one dance class per year and catch a two minute glimpse of her in the end of year performance - the only performance she would have the opportunity to take part in.

 

My daughter's ambition is to work for a ballet company - she recognises it is a very competitive world and will have to work hard to achieve this.  I do feel that when she completes her four year training in Moscow she will at least have a chance.  Something significant would have had to have changed for me to say the same had she stayed in the UK vocational system.

Firstly, how great to hear about the positive experience your DD is having in Russia. Can I ask what happened for you to change to training there?

I just can't understand why the approach here is to belittle students', erode their self confidence, and not give them performance or competition opportunities. How can that be a good way to train the dancers of tomorrow? It just makes no sense.

[JoJo]

Firstly, how great to hear about the positive experience your DD is having in Russia. Can I ask what happened for you to change to training there?

I recognised that the training my DD was receiving in her UK vocational school was not benefiting her and was fortunate enough to learn of a school in Bristol that offered Russian-style training, Bristol Russian Ballet School.  She trained with them for almost two years at weekends and during the holidays, outside of her attendance at her vocational school.  They suggested my DD audition for the Bolshoi at 16.  She was offered a place and has trained there since 2012.  

 

I really wish that we had discovered Russian training before - with hindsight (and if I had been brave enough) I would have sent her at a younger age.  Her improvement has been remarkable though she is playing catch up to the Russians and other international students who have been in receipt of this kind of training for much longer - the standard of the Russians at the Bolshoi is awe inspiring!

[primrose]

I agree with everything JoJo has said regarding The Bolshoi Academy. My dd was there for a while. She was also training at a vocational school in this country from 11 years of age. She like jojos dd was a RBS associate. She was also offered Dadas for upper schools in England but having tasted the Russian method of teaching she was adamant that this was what she wanted. The differences in her ability after being there for a year was quite astounding. I must also add that to my knowledge the younger girls do not start pointe until 11 years of age. She was only there a few months when she was given the opportunity to appear on stage and then workshops with the Joffrey Ballet School. Performing is a huge part of the school.

[Lisa O`Brien]

So, if UK students can perform full classical variations at the end of lower school how can they be behind their international peers against whom they are competing for upper school places? I certainly don't like to see 9 year olds dancing variations on pointe but I don't have a problem with 13 or 14 year olds doing a fair bit on pointe. As for the vocational syllabi, well, you'd expect aspiring professionals to be working well beyond that, wouldn't you? I think that other countries take a more Darwinian approach: some will crash and burn but others will be fine starting pointe work at a young age and will become accomplished at an early age and experience no physical problems. Let's not forget that, in the past, British (female) dancers often joined the RB at 16. There's a happy medium. I do think that students should be introduced to pirouettes and fouettes (even if not on pointe) much earlier. I recollect that in the old Grade 5 RAD syllabus you only had to do a half pirouette. Whatever one thinks about Dance Moms (and I know that it's not proper ballet), I'm struck by the ease with which those pre-teen girls can do multiple spins and fouettes, which seem to hold absolutely no fear for them; they are just a standard part of their dance routines.

Many years ago,of course,in the 1920`s and `30`s the legal age in the UK for leaving school and going into employment was 14,not 16 as it is now. Margot Fonteyn was,I think,only briefly at the Royal Ballet School,when she was invited by the Vic Wells Ballet to attend a rehearsal as a snowflake in Nutcracker,[Casse Noisette as it was called] and therefore be accepted into the company. She was 14. Beryl Grey made her debut as Odette/Odile on her 15th birthday. So,even though nowadays,with 6 o`clock extensions and the rest ,dancers are perceived to be more technically advanced, dancers being admitted into ballet companies by the time they were 14,must have been fairly highly advanced in their training,compared to nowadays.

[CeliB]

My DSs vocational school in the States is Vaganova training and they do 2 performances a year. All students take part, and the dances are almost overwhelmingly classical ballet, with maybe one or 2 contemporary or character pieces per performance. Each show has a lead up time about 5 or 6 weeks with the final 2 weeks being all rehearsal time (no academics). By their senior year all the students are performing classical solos from the great ballets. Often they will do an entire act of a ballet. DS also does additional performances for the school as part of outreach and arts events, so it is rare that he doesn't have an evening rehearsal for something at least 3-4 times a week.....