The Winter's Tale, Royal Ballet Spring '24

[Blossom]

On 04/05/2024 at 10:18, Sim said:

As I said above, I really did enjoy last night.  It has taken me a few years to warm to Winter's frost, but I do like it.  No, it doesn't engage me emotionally. 

 

I was hoping that when I see it live (for the first time) I might feel an emotional connection. The storytelling appears to be quite sharp, the acting excellent, but have found that the dancing is just dancing, there are no swells of emotion and no real emotional pull or feelings between the characters in the choreography. So I assume that the physicality of the steps is what makes the choreography truly emotive and that perhaps this is the missing piece of the jigsaw with Wheeldon. I hope I feel differently when I see it live, or that perhaps (as with Like Water for Chocolate where I much preferred the second cast) it’s down to casting. 

[San Perregrino]

1 hour ago, Blossom said:

I was hoping that when I see it live (for the first time) I might feel an emotional connection. The storytelling appears to be quite sharp, the acting excellent, but have found that the dancing is just dancing, there are no swells of emotion and no real emotional pull or feelings between the characters in the choreography. So I assume that the physicality of the steps is what makes the choreography truly emotive and that perhaps this is the missing piece of the jigsaw with Wheeldon. I hope I feel differently when I see it live, or that perhaps (as with Like Water for Chocolate where I much preferred the second cast) it’s down to casting. 

I’d suggest, for me, it is the music that under-delivers. While Talbot is perfectly pleasant, his music doesn’t soar or sweep nor lift or dive, it doesn’t move me to joy or tears nor get under my skin in the way Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky or even Minkus do. I sincerely hope that in his next commission for ROH, Wheeldon looks to the classical canon to orchestrate his work.

[FionaM]

There are a few key moments that are emotionally touching (even tearful) for me in Act 3:

- when Leontes and Perdita realise they are father and daughter

- when Paulina reveals the ‘statue’ of Hermione and their son to Leontes.  He should be visibly moved by her beautiful gift

- when Hermione comes back to life 

- the final moments when Paulina is left alone having worked her magic to reunite the remaining family

 

In Act 1 the emotions are all about dramatic intensity.  Occasionally I forgot to breathe.  
 

I was also worried for the youngish child sat near me … maybe age 10 … as it’s difficult for any child to watch the violence of a father to a mother.  I was reminded of the damage parents do to children when the parents fight verbally or physically.  Leontes’ son then dies of anxiety or shock at the terrible treatment of his mother.  
 

Then his mother seemingly also dies.  Only then does some realisation come to Leontes about what he has done.  Emotionally charged?  I was exhausted.  
 

I need the interval and the jolly scene in Bohemia in Act 2 to recover from so much that has gone before. 

 

Edited May 5 by FionaM

[Scheherezade]

I’m with San Perregrino on this. The music is perfectly pleasant but not nearly moving enough to deliver an emotional connection.

 

Act 1 has high drama in spades, and the dancers deliver on all cylinders. The emotion should flow like treacle and it generally does but this somehow fails to translate to emotional engagement. 
 

As I said earlier, I think the unmemorable music has a lot to do with this, with the remainder down to the heavily stylised nature of the choreography.

 

This is not to say I didn’t enjoy The Winter's Tale. I did. And I am looking forward to seeing what I am sure will be very different interpretations of Leontes later in the run, but even though I am sure that the performances will be rich with emotional content, I don’t expect to feel any great level of emotional engagement. The audience observes but is distant. It is as it is. 
 

 

Edited May 5 by Scheherezade

[Vanartus]

6 hours ago, Emeralds said:

@Vanartus- is there any chance you can fly back for one of the performances in May or on 1 June ?  Having seen the ballet on screen (TV and online, not cinema, but I was told it was the same recording as the first cinema relay) I think this ballet is much nicer in person and really worth the journey and cost if you are free and able to make it to ROH during the next few weeks. 

Sigh…next time in London isn’t till July…it’s such a pity…in fact the next RB won’t be till October/November…

[alison]

4 hours ago, FionaM said:

There are a few key moments that are emotionally touching (even tearful) for me in Act 3:

- when Leontes and Perdita realise they are father and daughter

- when Paulina reveals the ‘statue’ of Hermione and their son to Leontes.  He should be visibly moved by her beautiful gift

- when Hermione comes back to life 

- the final moments when Paulina is left alone having worked her magic to reunite the remaining family

 

Yet I still feel a little short-changed.  Another 60 seconds or so spent on several of the above would, I think, have worked wonders.  As it is, it all feels a bit rushed to me.

[Beaker]

So interesting to read that others struggle to connect emotionally with this ballet. 
 

I also struggled with connecting with it in a really meangingful way, despite some beautiful dancing and characterisation by the dancers. 
 

For me I’ve come to the conclusion that, for whatever reason, I do not connect to Christopher Wheeldon’s choreography. I can appreciate it, but thinking back I don’t think any of his pieces have really moved me. I find it a little shallow. I never particularly want to see it again. I can’t quite put my finger on why this is though. 
 

Others of course feel differently, so I’m not suggesting this as a criticism, more that his work doesn’t work for me (does make next season a little disappointing for me!). 

[LinMM]

For me I don’t think it’s so much his choreography as the music he chooses. I would love him to choose a different composer to Joby Talbot whose music I find very bland not unpleasant but just unmemorable! 
It probably just about works for Alice but for me not for The Winters Tale which needs a bit more bite and not that appropriate for Like Water Like Chocolate in my view. 

Edited May 6 by LinMM

[Beaker]

I don’t think it is just the music for me, although perhaps that doesn’t help! It would be interesting to see his work with a different composer.
 

However in addition I don’t find his steps ever speak directly to me - I sort of appreciate/understand them in a more cerebral way,  but they don’t go straight to my soul in the way other choreographers do. I’m someone who is too much in my head so what I’ve always loved about ballet is how sometimes when I watch, the dance itself seems to bypass thought and affects me directly, on a physical and emotional level. I have never yet experienced this with Wheeldon. As I say my issue not his - can’t like everyone! 
 

 

[Scheherezade]

55 minutes ago, Beaker said:

However in addition I don’t find his steps ever speak directly to me - I sort of appreciate/understand them in a more cerebral way,  but they don’t go straight to my soul in the way other choreographers do.

Exactly. The choreography feels more like the (admittedly impressive) product of an intellectual exercise than something that comes from the heart.

I still feel, however, that this is something that cannot entirely be divorced from the music and that there would be more chance of an emotional engagement if Wheeldon were to build around music with its own, recognisable emotional heft. 
 

It’s the eternal conundrum of the chicken and the egg, really, isn’t it?

[Beaker]

@Scheherezade - yes although perhaps the type of music he is drawn to using reflects his vision of dance/choreography? 
 

I also often feel in his ballets the steps are dancing to the music as opposed to through/as one. 
 

 

 

Edited May 6 by Beaker
Addition

[Balletfanp]

On a slightly different note, Christopher Wheeldon put up this rather touching post on Instagram this morning.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C6n9qB_LVh7/?igsh=YXJldnBzZ21ncTR6

[jmhopton]

Personally, I don't really connect much to any of Wheeldon's ballets though like others, I struggle to say why I'm riveted to Manon or Onegin but not to Winters Dreams or LWFC. Perhaps he tries to do too much with adapting very complex books, perhaps the music is bland or the choreography uninspiring (for me at any rate). Whatever cast you see you can never question the commitment of the dancers that's for sure. With Winter's tale I always feel there's too much angst in the first act (could be doing with being at least 5 minutes less). The second act I feel is too full of 'samey' dancing (again at least 5 minutes less) whereas the third act seems to be far too rushed with all the plot ends to tie up and could do with at least 10 minutes more. I'd hoped after the first run these things would have been rectified but I take it nothing really has changed. Of course, this is only my opinion and Christopher is presumably happy with the lengths of the 3 acts!

[Tango Dancer]

4 hours ago, LinMM said:

For me I don’t think it’s so much his choreography as the music he chooses. I would love him to choose a different composer to Joby Talbot whose music I find very bland not unpleasant but just unmemorable! 
It probably just about works for Alice but for me not for The Winters Tale which needs a bit more bite and not that appropriate for Like Water Like Chocolate in my view. 

 

I think for me it's definitely the music.  It's just not inspiring.  When I think of my favourite ballets regardless of era the music inspires me and goes with the dance (Giselle, Coppelia, Requiem etc).  It doesn't have to be classical music (I mean the Nina Simone music for Mthuthuzeli November's Nina for Ballet Black is electrifying) but it needs to move me somehow. 

 

I'd have liked LWFC a lot better with more inspiring music.  I quite like his choreography and subjects but the music is just so bland and uninspiring.  

[zxDaveM]

16 minutes ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

I quite like his choreography and subjects but the music is just so bland and uninspiring.  

 

I suppose you could call the music 'cinematic' in a way (for both Winter's Tale and Like Water for Chocolate), in that it supports the choreography rather than drives it along. In the same way a film score enhances the atmosphere/mood of what we are watching without writing the script, Talbot's score supports the choreography, rather that the choreography responding directly to the music, though the music does 'set the scene' as it were. So in that respect, I find it very effective, and for my money, doesn't intrude on the dancing.

 

[Vanartus]

Just found out The Winter’s Tale enters the repertoire of the Wiener Staatsballett in November this year and runs to the end of December. That’s my pre-Christmas break sorted!

[OnePigeon]

Music and dance are intrinsically linked for me: you need to breathe the music in and dance it out, to slightly misquote Edward Watson.  If there’s nothing to really dance out then you’re missing the vital component of the art form and that’s why so many of us can’t find an emotional connection to this work. There’s a blandness and  a slightly shallow feeling to it, for me, so that I can’t get to the depths of the emotion and be transported on the journey and the emotional turmoil of the characters in the way that Manon, R&J or Onegin, to name a few, plunge you into their world and mesmerise you. 

 

[Tango Dancer]

23 minutes ago, OnePigeon said:

Music and dance are intrinsically linked for me: you need to breathe the music in and dance it out, to slightly misquote Edward Watson.  If there’s nothing to really dance out then you’re missing the vital component of the art form and that’s why so many of us can’t find an emotional connection to this work. There’s a blandness and  a slightly shallow feeling to it, for me, so that I can’t get to the depths of the emotion and be transported on the journey and the emotional turmoil of the characters in the way that Manon, R&J or Onegin, to name a few, plunge you into their world and mesmerise you. 

 

 

This so much.  If the music doesn't add to the emotion and connect to the dance then you might as well be dancing to muzak.  For me, music is a key component of the ballet.  I agree none of Talbot's music add anything to the way the ballet feels.  I mean they're a not unpleasant background music but they don't do anything to inspire depth of feeling in me.   

 

I know what your quote means,  my ballet teacher tries quite hard to get us to feel the music and respond to it rather than just doing the step.

[art_enthusiast]

1 hour ago, OnePigeon said:

 I can’t get to the depths of the emotion and be transported on the journey and the emotional turmoil of the characters in the way that Manon, R&J or Onegin, to name a few, plunge you into their world and mesmerise you. 

 

 

I agree there, regarding Manon and R&J anyway (haven't yet seen Onegin). I'm not completely sure what it is about The Winter's Tale that isn't as emotionally gripping, given that the play has a lot of drama. Maybe because we're not exactly following the same characters and seeing them evolve throughout, as we are in R&J/Manon.

 

We go from Hermione/Leontes to Florizel/Perdita - we're not particularly endeared to these two in terms of supporting their love story as we only see them in Act 2... I guess there's not enough of a relationship being built up between the main characters and the audience.

 

I agree about the music not being particularly memorable, but I did like and remember certain sections. Certain parts of LWFC's score also stick in my head (though I definitely wouldn't put it on the level of Prokofiev or any other).

Edited May 6 by art_enthusiast

[Blossom]

5 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I suppose you could call the music 'cinematic' in a way (for both Winter's Tale and Like Water for Chocolate), in that it supports the choreography rather than drives it along. In the same way a film score enhances the atmosphere/mood of what we are watching without writing the script, Talbot's score supports the choreography, rather that the choreography responding directly to the music, though the music does 'set the scene' as it were. So in that respect, I find it very effective, and for my money, doesn't intrude on the dancing.

 

Interestingly Talbot composed for Wonka which was much more inspiring. 

[Jake]

6 hours ago, jmhopton said:

Personally, I don't really connect much to any of Wheeldon's ballets though like others, I struggle to say why I'm riveted to Manon or Onegin but not to Winters Dreams or LWFC. Perhaps he tries to do too much with adapting very complex books, perhaps the music is bland or the choreography uninspiring (for me at any rate). Whatever cast you see you can never question the commitment of the dancers that's for sure. With Winter's tale I always feel there's too much angst in the first act (could be doing with being at least 5 minutes less). The second act I feel is too full of 'samey' dancing (again at least 5 minutes less) whereas the third act seems to be far too rushed with all the plot ends to tie up and could do with at least 10 minutes more. I'd hoped after the first run these things would have been rectified but I take it nothing really has changed. Of course, this is only my opinion and Christopher is presumably happy with the lengths of the 3 acts!

Couldn’t agree more regarding the timing. The act one angst and the act two frolicking are wonderful in their way but perhaps a shade too much of a good thing while the resolution of the story seemed to me not quite detailed enough. At least that was how it seemed a few years ago. Will be interested to see if it has changed at all. 

Do wonder if sections arguably going on a little too long is a Wheeldon thing. Felt the same about some parts of Alice, and similarly with American In Paris when it premiered in Paris. By the time it got to London I had the impression it had been tightened up a bit, to its benefit. 

[JennyTaylor]

I think I might be in the minority here, but I love the music in Act 3, which contains what I hear as the theme music to the ballet. I just wish this music was repeated more frequently in the entire ballet.  So, the moment when Florizel enters and carries Perdita across the stage in Act 3 to meet Leontes, is the sweet spot for me. Then I always get goose bumps when Paulina notices the pendant around Perdita's neck. It's happened every time for me, even in the rehearsal.     

 

I have a soft spot for the Winter's Tale, having attended a few events when it was being created. The tree is a creation of beauty (all ornaments hand crafted) and unique in modern day productions. Thiago Soares and Ben Gartside were my two favourite Leontes in the previous productions. Now immersing myself in the current casts with pleasure.  

[Lindsay]

4 hours ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

This so much.  If the music doesn't add to the emotion and connect to the dance then you might as well be dancing to muzak.  For me, music is a key component of the ballet.  I agree none of Talbot's music add anything to the way the ballet feels.  I mean they're a not unpleasant background music but they don't do anything to inspire depth of feeling in me.   

 

I know what your quote means,  my ballet teacher tries quite hard to get us to feel the music and respond to it rather than just doing the step.

I totally agree.  Talbot’s music is “very quite nice” in the blandest way possible.  It’s wheeldon’s biggest weakness imho.  I wish he would engage with more complex music more often - it’s not as though he’s incapable of it - Polyphonia to Ligeti was stunning (and still his best work for me).  But for his full lengths he repeatedly picks easy-listening-mush.  It’s baffling!
 

I have never booked for a Wheeldon full length more than once and the music has always been the main factor in that decision - (although the appallingly “literal” and unimaginative translation of source material into dance runs it a close second…,)

 

I really think he should have remained at NYC making abstract works to good music 

[Dawnstar]

I see there's a last minute double cast change for tonight. I hope whatever illness or injury has caused it is only short term so Naghdi & Bracewell will be able to do their later, filmed, performances.

 

[Mary]

I have the happiest memories of some of Wheeldon's early abstract works when he was hailed as the new choreographer of his era- e.g. seeing Cope and Bussell in Tryst: I still have the postcard on my wall, and my memory is that it was very beautiful - danced I think to James Macmillan music. More challenging. I don't think we have seen these since? Could be wrong and maybe they would not stand up now, I don't know.

 

W T is a bit on the literal side I have to agree, the music is a bit bland and, as I have said too often probably, there is too much writhing......

 

[art_enthusiast]

24 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

I see there's a last minute double cast change for tonight. I hope whatever illness or injury has caused it is only short term so Naghdi & Bracewell will be able to do their later, filmed, performances.

 

Interesting - Joseph posted on Instagram that he was performing it this week which confused me as I thought his first was the 24th. Now I see why. Good luck to them!

 

So is this the cast that will now be filmed?

Edited May 7 by art_enthusiast

[Sim]

Will has sustained an injury so needs to skip tonight in order to hopefully recover in time for next Monday's show, which is when filming begins.  It was too late for Yasmine to rehearse the role with a new partner as the pdd are quite intricate, so it was decided to replace them both.  

[balletyas]

I’m so disappointed and half inclined to return my 4 tickets tonight and rebook for 13th just not sure if they’ll sell? All SC and ranking from 49 to 63 - any thoughts very welcome. I’m sure they will do very well tonight but I was set on the Bracewell/naghdi cast.. 

[MildConcern]

14 minutes ago, balletyas said:

I’m so disappointed and half inclined to return my 4 tickets tonight and rebook for 13th just not sure if they’ll sell? All SC and ranking from 49 to 63 - any thoughts very welcome. I’m sure they will do very well tonight but I was set on the Bracewell/naghdi cast.. 

If your concern is whether you get the return credit, then rest assured, the amount will be credited to your account immediately on return and is not contingent upon resale. 

[JNC]

1 minute ago, MildConcern said:

If your concern is whether you get the return credit, then rest assured, the amount will be credited to your account immediately on return and is not contingent upon resale. 

Not if it’s less than 24 hours until the performance?

 

If Sissens posted a few days ago he’s not dancing I wonder why they only updated the cast change to those who bought tickets today, if they did it yesterday people could have returned tickets for guaranteed credit…?

[balletyas]

4 minutes ago, MildConcern said:

If your concern is whether you get the return credit, then rest assured, the amount will be credited to your account immediately on return and is not contingent upon resale. 

Yes it is that’s it within the 24 hours si that doesn’t apply.. I don’t think 

[MildConcern]

1 minute ago, JNC said:

Not if it’s less than 24 hours until the performance?

 

Oh - I wasn't aware of that small print. I stand corrected!

[San Perregrino]

I think Pantuso/Sissens will be a very good watch and am looking forward to this little bonus.