Manon, Royal Ballet Winter 2024

[MAB]

11 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

It baffles me that an assembled score can be better than a score a composer wrote specifically for a plot 

 

I suppose it is the equivalent of creating a musical from all the hits of something that has gone before.  Massenet's most performed opera, Werther, doesn't feature in the ballet either.  When I started opera going Massenet hardly figured in the repertoire, happily that's not the case any more.

 

[art_enthusiast]

23 hours ago, Silver Capricorn said:

Yes, the story is told by Des Grieux, but he does not say anything bad about Manon, on the contrary, he excuses all her mistakes and betrayals.  In general, the fate of Manon in the ballet is depicted much more dramatically and harshly, for example, the rape, as depicted in the 3rd act of the ballet, does not occur at all in the novel.  In New Orleans, Manon is courting the governor's nephew, whom Des Grieux lets go and injures in a duel.  After the death of Manon, Des Griuex is absolved of all guilt at the intercession of the governor and his nephew and returns to France to his family.

Interesting. One thing that’s confused me - had Des Grieux not been arrested alongside Manon and if not, how was he able to accompany her to Louisiana if he wasn’t a prisoner?

 

I haven’t read the book, but I’m very interested in the representation of real female characters in literature, film, ballet etc. Getting away from the Madonna/whore trope, women are way too complex to fit into either box. It’s way more interesting to see a character composed of shades of grey instead of black and white. 
 

Likewise, it’s more interesting to see a male character who isn’t the perfect prince in ballet - which is why Rudolf in Mayerling is so interesting. I’m still so annoyed I missed Muntagirov, as it would have been so interesting to see him cast against type. Thanks Covid for that! Still, looking forward to his DG interpretation with Kaneko.

 

I just dislike the concept of DG bring this perfect man who forgives/absolves the amoral female character as these situations are rarely black and white.

[RobR]

None of the princes in classical ballet are perfect apart from the Sugar Plum Fairy’s Prince (with the possible exception of Florimund in SB, and that’s only because he’s late to the party).

 

Apart from those mentioned above, Siegfried picks Odile rather than Odette, Albrecht lies to (and possibly seduces) Giselle, Leontes is a complete jealous rat in The Winter’s Tale, Solor in La Bayadere, feckless James abandoning Effie in La Sylphide, and street hoodlum Romeo ruining Juliet's life in R & J.

 

No doubt there are others but the role of the prince depends on failure, jealousy or (in D G's case) weakness…..

 

I'm sure there are more

Edited January 22 by RobR
Grammar

[alison]

Des Grieux manages to get on the ship by claiming he's Manon's husband, I think.

[MAB]

1 hour ago, art_enthusiast said:

I just dislike the concept of DG bring this perfect man who forgives/absolves the amoral female character as these situations are rarely black and white.

 

After having seen two operas and a ballet, I haven't bothered with the book.  I assume DG paid his passage, his father is a nobleman.  The reason why he has so little money at the start is because Dad disapproves of his son going into the priesthood.  The person who lures him from his vocation is Manon.  she succeeds where his father failed.  DG forgives her mainly because he is besotted and partly, I assume,  because of his strong Christian ethics.

[Suffolkgal]

There’s a lot of final absolution in ballet! 

[Balletfanp]

DG isn’t entirely whiter than white - he agrees (albeit reluctantly!) to cheat at cards at Manon’s behest!

Edited January 22 by Balletfanp
Typo

[Sim]

2 minutes ago, Balletfanp said:

DG isn’t entirely whiter than white - he agrees (albeit reluctantly!) to cheat at cards at Manon’s behest!

And has sex before marriage....surely a no-no for a good Catholic back in the day?!

[alison]

Yes, from the background to the novel I read many years ago I got the impression that at that time "strong Christian ethics" were by no means a prerequisite for admission to the priesthood .  I was of the impression that it wasn't that much less corrupt than "society" as a whole at the time, but I could be mis-remembering, or thinking of Le Rouge et le Noir.  As I said, it's a long time ago ...

[Silver Capricorn]

5 hours ago, art_enthusiast said:

Interesting. One thing that’s confused me - had Des Grieux not been arrested alongside Manon and if not, how was he able to accompany her to Louisiana if he wasn’t a prisoner?

 

I haven’t read the book, but I’m very interested in the representation of real female characters in literature, film, ballet etc. Getting away from the Madonna/whore trope, women are way too complex to fit into either box. It’s way more interesting to see a character composed of shades of grey instead of black and white. 
 

Likewise, it’s more interesting to see a male character who isn’t the perfect prince in ballet - which is why Rudolf in Mayerling is so interesting. I’m still so annoyed I missed Muntagirov, as it would have been so interesting to see him cast against type. Thanks Covid for that! Still, looking forward to his DG interpretation with Kaneko.

 

I just dislike the concept of DG bring this perfect man who forgives/absolves the amoral female character as these situations are rarely black and white.

Father Des Grieux buys his son out of prison, and he then accompanies the imprisoned Manon to the ship and on the way to America.  He poses as her husband and bribes her guards.  During the time DG lived with Manon in Paris, he made a living as a professional fake gambler.

[Scheherezade]

3 hours ago, Sim said:

And has sex before marriage....surely a no-no for a good Catholic back in the day?!

Ah, but the irresistible lure of sin has always been a big part of Catholicism - the bigger the no no the greater the appeal. 

[bridiem]

3 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

Ah, but the irresistible lure of sin has always been a big part of Catholicism - the bigger the no no the greater the appeal. 

 

I'd be more inclined to say that it's always been a big part of human nature.

[Scheherezade]

10 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

I'd be more inclined to say that it's always been a big part of human nature.

True, but fruit that is especially forbidden - and the risk in Catholicism extends to the immortal soul - always tastes that much sweeter. 

[Silver Capricorn]

4 hours ago, Sim said:

And has sex before marriage....surely a no-no for a good Catholic back in the day?!

In the novel it is written (after DG's escape with Manon from Amiens to Paris): "We forgot our wedding plans, bypassed church law and became husband and wife without thinking".

[Balletfanp]

56 minutes ago, Silver Capricorn said:

In the novel it is written (after DG's escape with Manon from Amiens to Paris): "We forgot our wedding plans, bypassed church law and became husband and wife without thinking".

And actually, the Church for many years considered that the act of sex made people husband and wife in the sight of God, regardless of whether or not any ceremony had taken place.

[Dawnstar]

During Saturday's Manon performance I found myself wondering whether any dancers had performed both Des Grieux and either Monsieur GM or the Gaoler. Dowell seemed the most likely one & having got round to searching the ROH database I find he did indeed perform GM as well as Des Grieux. Does anyone know if there have been any others?

[Sophoife]

What a lovely rabbit hole you sent me down @Dawnstar! Anthony Dowell, who remains the only man to play both Des Grieux and Monsieur GM, made his first appearance in the latter rôle on 31 January 2003, with Sylvie Guillem and Laurent Hilaire, Brian Maloney as Lescaut, and a young dancer called Marianela Nuñez as his Mistress. Whatever happened to her?

 

I discovered that between 1974 and 1991, there were only three Des Grieux at the ROH: Dowell, Rudolf Nureyev and Wayne Eagling. Bruce Sansom debuted in 1991.

 

Irek Mukhamedov was the first to dance both Des Grieux and Lescaut, and on 30 October 1995 he was Lescaut to Guillem and Hilaire. Carlos Acosta has also danced both rôles, as have Alex Campbell and Marcelino Sambé. Ryoichi Hirano will be only the fifth dancer to have done this when he makes his DG début.

 

On 1 November 1995 David Drew, who had previously performed both Lescaut and the Gaoler, made his first appearance as Monsieur GM.

 

Gary Avis has performed both Monsieur GM and the Gaoler on many occasions.

 

Bennet Gartside has done three of the four, only lacking Des Grieux.

 

The Gaoler's Mistress disappeared as a named role between the July and November 1974 performances.

 

I would love in the future to see Ryoichi Hirano or Edward Watson have a go at Monsieur GM; I think they'd both be utterly creepy.

[Jan McNulty]

Did not the late Julian Hosking also dance DG?  I could have sworn I saw him and Lesley Collier in the first performance of Manon that I saw.

[Jamesrhblack]

1 hour ago, Sophoife said:

 

 

I discovered that between 1974 and 1991, there were only three Des Grieux at the ROH: Dowell, Rudolf Nureyev and Wayne Eagling. Bruce Sansom debuted in 1991.

 

Irek Mukhamedov was the first to dance both Des Grieux and Lescaut, and on 30 October 1995 he was Lescaut to Guillem and Hilaire. Carlos Acosta has also danced both rôles, as have Alex Campbell and Marcelino Sambé. Ryoichi Hirano will be only the fifth dancer to have done this when he makes his DG début.

 

David Wall made his debut as Des Grieux in January 1976 to Lynn Seymour’s Manon with Anthony Dowell as Lescaut so he and Dowell were the first to dance both of the principal male dancing roles.

 

I am fairly sure that Julian Hosking danced Des Grieux before 1991.

 

Bruce Sansom danced Lescaut for his last performance with The Royal Ballet.

Edited January 23 by Jamesrhblack

[RobR]

1 hour ago, Sophoife said:

What a lovely rabbit hole you sent me down @Dawnstar! Anthony Dowell, who remains the only man to play both Des Grieux and Monsieur GM, made his first appearance in the latter rôle on 31 January 2003, with Sylvie Guillem and Laurent Hilaire, Brian Maloney as Lescaut, and a young dancer called Marianela Nuñez as his Mistress. Whatever happened to her?

Thanks for the memory @Sophoife, I have a happy recollection of that cast - with Will Tuckett as a very menacing Gaoler

[MAB]

 The finest performance I ever saw of Manon was at an ROH prom performance in the 1980;s.  The unforgettable cast was Seymour, Eagling and Dowell. 

Edited January 23 by MAB

[LinMM]

Hmm I know Dowell is getting on a bit now but definitely in pretty good nick then for about 140 years old!! 

Edited January 23 by LinMM

[MAB]

Sorry Lin, always been the world.s worst typist, in my day we had typing pools for that.   I have corrected the blooper.

Edited January 23 by MAB

[alison]

Thanks, James - I was going to add Bruce Sansom's farewell performance as Lescaut until I saw that you'd mentioned it.

[Sophoife]

10 minutes ago, Jamesrhblack said:

David Wall made his debut as Des Grieux in January 1976 to Lynn Seymour’s Manon with Anthony Dowell as Lescaut so he and Dowell were the first to dance both of the principal male dancing roles.

 

I am fairly sure that Julian Hosking danced Des Grieux before 1991.

 

Bruce Sansom danced Lescaut for his last performance with The Royal Ballet.

 

Thank you @Jamesrhblack!

 

I was going by performances at the ROH as listed in the performance database,.which I thought was for all performances on the main stage from 1946-August 2019 but now realise is not.

 

According to the database, Wall danced DG once, in May 1977, with Lynn Seymour and Derek Rencher as Monsieur GM. This, however, is wrong, as John Percival reviewed Lynn Seymour's début in The Times, dated 2 January 1976, and made a point of commenting that Wall and Dowell, swapping into each other's rôles, were better in their new ones than in their originals.

 

Julian Hosking is only listed in the database as having appeared as Gentleman in 22 performances of Manon at the ROH over the period 1974 to 1983 and is not listed as having appeared in the ballet after that. However, John Percival in The Times of 12 February 1982 damns his début the previous evening with faint praise (and says Lesley Collier was miscast as Lescaut's Mistress) in his début as Des Grieux. So the database on which I relied is not infallible! 

 

I did know about Bruce Sansom but I forgot, so thank you for that as well.

[LinMM]

Well no worries you cheered me up MAB 🙂

What worries me is when I see I’ve made a mistake and then it takes me 3/4 times to still hit the correct letter!! 
My finger just won’t go where my eye is telling it to lol!! 

[art_enthusiast]

On 22/01/2024 at 15:02, RobR said:

Apart from those mentioned above, Siegfried picks Odile rather than Odette, Albrecht lies to (and possibly seduces) Giselle, Leontes is a complete jealous rat in The Winter’s Tale, Solor in La Bayadere, feckless James abandoning Effie in La Sylphide, and street hoodlum Romeo ruining Juliet's life in R & J.

 

No doubt there are others but the role of the prince depends on failure, jealousy or (in D G's case) weakness…..

Yep, good points. I’ll rephrase my observation a little: the female character is often the one that gets punished regardless of who is more morally bankrupt. Manon dies, Giselle dies, Odette dies (depending on the version I guess), Hermione dies then comes back to life I think (haven’t seen the full ballet yet) and Nikiya dies (I also haven’t seen Bayadere in full so can’t remember if Solor dies or not). Either way, there’s a bit of an imbalance there. But this is just a general observation that isn’t really unique to this topic. It’s just a storytelling facet I guess - and one that you still see in modern media, unfortunately.

[DVDfan]

Yes, for some reason it is the women who are punished by death, which leads me to wonder if they represent something besides themselves. I'm thinking about some of the classical literature here, where the women (such as Dido) represent the land, their country.

Personally I find the sex=death narratives a bit tedious, but on the other hand, at least in ballet, the men don't usually get away scot free. Sometimes they die too (Romeo, Siegfried and Solor in most versions) but if they survive, they have to live with guilt and remorse. They don't just walk away. Albrecht is devasted by guilt, DG is left in the swamp facing a probable murder charge if he can get out alive. Solor and Siegfried, if they do survive, have to make loveless marriages with villainesses. 

[Sophoife]

Just now, DVDfan said:

the men don't usually get away scot free. Sometimes they die too

 

James in La Sylphide certainly ends up in a bad place. He collapses and Madge is triumphant. But there's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead, and Miracle Max is not present to divine which is the case.

 

In the novel, Des Grieux thinks he has killed the Bad Man but hasn't, so is able to be taken back to France by his friend Tiberge (who of course is one character too many for the ballet).

[alison]

And in fact it's suggested that even Manon may not actually be dead  

[DVDfan]

IIRC, because I've only read the book once and that some time ago, DG is the central character and the story focusses on his obsession with Manon. He turns to cheating at cards to support her, and when he fails to keep her in the style which she loves, she leaves him for richer men. But he keeps on, so this happens more than once. Her affection for him does grow with time. She is doing alright in the demi-monde, until his family, determined to separate them so that he will make a suitable marriage and career, have her transported. He contrives to go with her, and all is well until it is revealed that they are not, in fact, married.  They flee into the Louisiana desert (honestly, the author obviously didn't have access to a decent map) where Manon is overcome by lack of water and dies.  

 

I don't think this would make a good 3 act ballet, and that McMillan and his dramaturg (if he used one for this work) have done a good job in creating a version of the story that does.

 

[Roberta]

32 minutes ago, DVDfan said:

McMillan and his dramaturg (if he used one for this work) have done a good job in creating a version of the story that does.

 

 

MacMillan wrote his own libretto (altered as you say from that of the novel, as with Romeo and Juliet, which doesn't stick slavishly to the narrative of Shakespeare's play). 

 

Wiki tells us The ballet's narrative structure is based on that of MacMillan's earlier Romeo and Juliet, with hero and heroine meeting each other as young innocents and their love being revealed through a series of pas de deux.^[4]

 

 

[alison]

1 hour ago, DVDfan said:

He turns to cheating at cards to support her, and when he fails to keep her in the style which she loves, she leaves him for richer men. But he keeps on, so this happens more than once. Her affection for him does grow with time.

 

Similarly, in the original, Cinderella goes to the ball three times before she forgets midnight, but Prokofiev, and consequently subsequent choreographers, only gives us the one ball scene.  Nothing wrong with filleting a story to make a better-balanced ballet scenario