Ballets that have aged badly

[MAB]

The most menacing Black Queen I saw was Maina Gielgud, but having earlier seen Robert Helpmann as the Red King and Nureyev as the Red Knight, perhaps I have  more keenly etched memories of the ballet than most.  Svetlana Beriosova and Monica Mason were also stunning Black Queens.  I think today Osipova could get to own that role given a chance.

[Sim]

I think @Fonty makes a good point about some of the pieces being performed in such a way that the original intent is lost.  Like her, I didn't like Checkmate when I saw Bussell in it, but when I saw Yanowsky it was like another ballet and I loved it.  And, as I thought I indicated in my original post, I love Checkmate.  When I say it is outdated I am looking at it from the point of view of the wider audience, not forum members.  When I say it is outdated, I mean the look of it:  the set and the costumes and even the style of dancing.  Before I'm shot down, I will reiterate that I love the piece, but when I have shown it (live and on screen) to some people who are not ballet fanatics they have said that it's old fashioned.  Personally I don't mind if anything is old fashioned as long as it's good or I enjoy it, but it does seem to matter to some people, especially younger ones (who, like I did, would probably grow into these things as they get older).  I would really love to see this ballet performed again, but not sure whether the RB would risk it when sales are slow for even the popular ballets.  

[Sim]

3 minutes ago, MAB said:

 I think today Osipova could get to own that role given a chance.

Oh yes.

[bridiem]

26 minutes ago, Sim said:

I think @Fonty makes a good point about some of the pieces being performed in such a way that the original intent is lost.  Like her, I didn't like Checkmate when I saw Bussell in it, but when I saw Yanowsky it was like another ballet and I loved it.  And, as I thought I indicated in my original post, I love Checkmate.  When I say it is outdated I am looking at it from the point of view of the wider audience, not forum members.  When I say it is outdated, I mean the look of it:  the set and the costumes and even the style of dancing.  Before I'm shot down, I will reiterate that I love the piece, but when I have shown it (live and on screen) to some people who are not ballet fanatics they have said that it's old fashioned.  Personally I don't mind if anything is old fashioned as long as it's good or I enjoy it, but it does seem to matter to some people, especially younger ones (who, like I did, would probably grow into these things as they get older).  I would really love to see this ballet performed again, but not sure whether the RB would risk it when sales are slow for even the popular ballets.  

 

I think it's like old films - they're of their time but still (if they're any good) of great interest today. 

[Fonty]

26 minutes ago, Sim said:

I think @Fonty makes a good point about some of the pieces being performed in such a way that the original intent is lost.  Like her, I didn't like Checkmate when I saw Bussell in it, but when I saw Yanowsky it was like another ballet and I loved it.  And, as I thought I indicated in my original post, I love Checkmate.  When I say it is outdated I am looking at it from the point of view of the wider audience, not forum members.  When I say it is outdated, I mean the look of it:  the set and the costumes and even the style of dancing.  Before I'm shot down, I will reiterate that I love the piece, but when I have shown it (live and on screen) to some people who are not ballet fanatics they have said that it's old fashioned.  Personally I don't mind if anything is old fashioned as long as it's good or I enjoy it, but it does seem to matter to some people, especially younger ones (who, like I did, would probably grow into these things as they get older).  I would really love to see this ballet performed again, but not sure whether the RB would risk it when sales are slow for even the popular ballets.  

 

@Sim  Do these people also find the Tchaikovsky ballets old fashioned?  Or the romantic ballets such as Giselle?  I am curious, because if young people don't like these, then perhaps the problem is they don't actually like classical ballet very much.  And that leads us neatly back to the fact that ballet is no longer considered a popular art form, and is hardly ever shown on television any more.  We don't have the variety shows I remember from my childhood, and even when we did ballet and opera, even Gilbert and Sullivan, were no longer standard fare. Add in the lack of music in schools, which introduces pupils to classical music, and the prospect for the future seems rather bleak.  

 

  

[alison]

18 hours ago, Sim said:

Things can be universal and still be outdated stylistically.   

 

They certainly can.  I was hoping that this was what the thread would concentrate on, rather than ballets which offend people's current sensibilities, which have been discussed on a number of threads.

[alison]

19 hours ago, Sophoife said:

Third response regarding pirates and slavers: both the western and eastern coasts of Africa were notorious for nests of pirates and slavers,

 

They still are, at least for the former, even if possibly not to such a great extent.

[zxDaveM]

17 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

@Sim  Do these people also find the Tchaikovsky ballets old fashioned?  Or the romantic ballets such as Giselle? 

 

  

 

I'd say it isn't the ballet (choreography) as such, but the costume designs that date a production of even seemingly timeless works (eg Catalabutte in RB's Beauty - well actually, nearly all the chaps seem somewhat cursed in the costume dept in that production - look pretty ghastly in my view). The ethereal beings (sylphs, nymphs, fairies etc) seem to persevere better being in 'timeless' costumes such as tutus, but the courtiers do suffer horribly! Swan Lake's white acts sail imperiously over the other acts as they have been left largely alone - whereas every restaging has a go at the first and third act, with varying success over varying timescales.

 

For me, when a ballet is made (or even restaged) and very much "of it's time", it will tend to date very quickly. Something like Giselle seems almost timeless when set in the era of its story, so more resistant to becoming dated - will Khan's Giselle at ENB do the same over the years? (I do hope so). Whereas something like Symphonic Variations could have been made any time in the last 100 years - or even the next 100 years - as opposed to some of Ashton's more twee one act works, or MacMillans contemporary make-'em-aware-of-real-life era ballets, which look very dated to me, as opposed to something like his Requiem or Concerto which still look breathtakingly fresh and vibrant. The simplicity of the staging/production of Balanchine's ballets will make them pretty bomb proof to the passge of time I reckon, as another example.

 

 

[Jamesrhblack]

2 hours ago, DVDfan said:

As I understood it, at the end of Anastasia, when she is scooting around the room on the bed, this is supposed to be a moment when she is truly certain of her identity - but if she still thinks she is Anastasia, she can't be as this is a delusion, and therefore the poor woman is in fact trapped in a false identity haunted by implanted, traumatic memories. 

 

I'd like to add that I only said it was outdated, I didn't say it should never be performed.

 

But it was a “delusion” that Franziska Schanzkowska sustained to the end of her life. She is even interred under the name of Anastasia at Castle Seeon.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Jamesrhblack
Correction

[AnneMarriott]

5 hours ago, capybara said:

Haven’t the offending wigs been ditched now?

That's a relief! I have avoided it for some years so wasn't aware of design changes.  However, wigs aside, I have always found it old fashioned and curiously uninvolving (Tamara Rojo an honourable exception).

[Sim]

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

@Sim  Do these people also find the Tchaikovsky ballets old fashioned?  Or the romantic ballets such as Giselle? 

  

No....I think that's because there's a difference in that the choreography is beautifully classical in these ballets, the music is glorious, the sets and costumes are usually lovely and on the whole they don't challenge us.  They make most of us feel happy, and maybe that's what everyone likes, no matter how young or old.  Also, as mentioned above, the themes are universal and will always be relevant (good/evil, love/hate, forgiveness, redemption, etc.).  

[Sophoife]

With reference specifically to Marguerite and Armand, which I have just seen live three times in Sydney (AusBallet - review in progress), there were no wigs except on Stand-In Marguerite coughing her lungs up in the prologue (to make her more credible).

 

The costumes and set were sourced from "Sarasota Ballet (Iain Webb, Director)" as credited in the programme.

 

I can't remember from the one Royal Ballet show I saw in 2017: do you have the Gentleman in the violet coat with the enormous white cuffs and the one in the striped trousers? They certainly look outdated to me 🤣

 

[Dawnstar]

4 minutes ago, Sophoife said:

I can't remember from the one Royal Ballet show I saw in 2017: do you have the Gentleman in the violet coat with the enormous white cuffs and the one in the striped trousers? They certainly look outdated to me 🤣

 

I've not seen it done at the RB but when Cojocaru did it at Sadler's Wells in 2020 I believe the costumes & sets were borrowed from the RB. Checking my curtain call photos from then, there are indeed men in those costumes (sorry, not a very good photo).

 

 

I don't think anyone was wigged other than Kobborg & that was presumably more because he was playing an older character than for a specifically "period" look, though admittedly his shaven head would otherwise have stood out as being very much not of the period.

 

[Ondine]

5 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

the costumes & sets were borrowed from the RB.

 

Costumes and sets by Cecil Beaton I think?

 

Not my favourite ballet but the frocks were divine!

 

 

 

[Ian Macmillan]

Zenaida Yanowsky - perfection!  She could never 'age badly.'  Thank you. 

[Sophoife]

Thank you @Dawnstar for both the photos and the information!

 

When I think Cecil Beaton costumes I think Gigi and My Fair Lady, and the gowns for Marguerite are beautiful.

[DVDfan]

Wrt Marguerite and Armand,  the fashions of the 1830s really were peculiar, so it's difficult for a designer. They do convey the shallow, rather corrupt fashionable society that Marguerite is enmeshed in, though, by being a bit OTT and silly.

 

 

[LinMM]

I never thought I’d be reading that the Ballet Marguerite and Armand should be consigned to the attic as such!!! 

There is a certain stylisation about it but then that was for dramatic effect I thought so that the final scenes where “love” has broken through the barriers becomes so effective. 
I know I know ….I do bang on about Fonteyn and Nureyev from time to time ….but this ballet was wonderfully moving with these two in the main roles. 
So as somebody else has suggested getting the right casting and intention behind the Ballet can revitalise it. 
Of course I’m not saying this particular ballet cannot survive without Fonteyn and Nureyev but it needs artists who can ….in a short space of time ….portray deep emotional abandon on stage without reducing it to melodrama…not easy. 
But I could easily start the list here now of current RB dancers and dancers from other Ballet Companies who could definitely fulfil these roles!! 

Id love to see this ballet again now. 
 

As an aside there was mention recently of needing another shorter ballet to accompany the Cellist programme or where the main Ballet on offer is a bit short …. so Marguerite and Armand would be perfect for this purpose or as part of a triple …..but not necessarily always an Ashton triple ….it can always be mixed with other choreographers Pieces as well. 
 

[AnneMarriott]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

I never thought I’d be reading that the Ballet Marguerite and Armand should be consigned to the attic as such!!! 

...

Of course I’m not saying this particular ballet cannot survive without Fonteyn and Nureyev but it needs artists who can ….in a short space of time ….portray deep emotional abandon on stage without reducing it to melodrama…not easy. 
 ...

As an aside there was mention recently of needing another shorter ballet to accompany the Cellist programme or where the main Ballet on offer is a bit short …. so Marguerite and Armand would be perfect for this purpose or as part of a triple …..but not necessarily always an Ashton triple ….it can always be mixed with other choreographers Pieces as well. 
 

As a confirmed non-fan of this ballet, I must admit that melodrama is its most accurate description for me, almost regardless of cast.  I only saw the original cast on film and clearly the stage performance must have been more convincing.  Without wishing to offend anyone, I have always caught a whiff of silent cinema and I half expect a speech bubble, "Alas, I am undone", to appear at some point.

 

And please, if and when it comes back, let it not be as part of a triple bill, especially as the middle piece.

Edited November 27, 2023 by AnneMarriott
add a missing word

[Fonty]

21 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I'd say it isn't the ballet (choreography) as such, but the costume designs that date a production of even seemingly timeless works (eg Catalabutte in RB's Beauty - well actually, nearly all the chaps seem somewhat cursed in the costume dept in that production - look pretty ghastly in my view). The ethereal beings (sylphs, nymphs, fairies etc) seem to persevere better being in 'timeless' costumes such as tutus, but the courtiers do suffer horribly! Swan Lake's white acts sail imperiously over the other acts as they have been left largely alone - whereas every restaging has a go at the first and third act, with varying success over varying timescales.

 

For me, when a ballet is made (or even restaged) and very much "of it's time", it will tend to date very quickly. Something like Giselle seems almost timeless when set in the era of its story, so more resistant to becoming dated - will Khan's Giselle at ENB do the same over the years? (I do hope so). Whereas something like Symphonic Variations could have been made any time in the last 100 years - or even the next 100 years - as opposed to some of Ashton's more twee one act works, or MacMillans contemporary make-'em-aware-of-real-life era ballets, which look very dated to me, as opposed to something like his Requiem or Concerto which still look breathtakingly fresh and vibrant. The simplicity of the staging/production of Balanchine's ballets will make them pretty bomb proof to the passge of time I reckon, as another example.

 

 

 

Yet often a restaging of a ballet can end up with something not very attractive at all.  Costumes that were originally in subtle colours are redone in garish ones, scenery that gave a suggestion of the environment is replaced with eye walloping structures that distract from the whole piece.  I am thinking specifically here of the BRB production of Les Rendezvous.  I have only seen pictures of the original white costumes, but I still can't get those hideous colours and ghastly scenery of this production out of my head.  Whoever thought those were a good idea I don't know, but the problem was it was so off putting it really affected my perception of the ballet.  I live in fear that someone will come along and decide that Symphonic Variations needs modernising and livening up and give it the same treatment.   Then I might suddenly find I don't like it as much any more. 

 

There has also been talk of the costumes and makeup for The Dream being old fashioned.  I thing the only horrible thing in that is the long blonde wig that poor old Titania is saddled with.  They can get rid of that, but I love the rest.  

I've mentioned Ashton ballets, but I know I have seen some horrible designs for Swan Lake too.  I appreciate costumes must wear out, but it must cost a fortune to make these new costumes, and often they are so nasty I wonder why they didn't just copy the old ones.  

On the topic of M & A, I am not overly keen on it and it wouldn't bother me if I never saw it again.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by Fonty

[capybara]

I absolutely LOVE Marguerite and Armand but agree that the attire of the surrounding gentlemen can be a bit off-putting.

 

It’s amazing to note how many companies have now brought this ballet into their rep. -    all while the RB is leaving it on the shelf for the moment. Just as is happening with too much Ashton.

 

My personal list of ballets which have aged badly range from Job to works created within the last 10 years - but some of those should probably not have seen the light of day to begin with.

[LinMM]

Well Anne Marriott let’s hope it’s put either first on the bill so you can have time for an extra tea/wine in the bar or at the end so you can get home a bit earlier lol! 

[San Perregrino]

On 25/11/2023 at 12:20, zxDaveM said:

 

never, I hope!

i’ve often dreamt of being woken from my reverie by an handsome Prince (no luck so far) so, I think that there is room for a Sleeping Beauty that has a male dancer as Aurora. 
 

[bridiem]

15 minutes ago, PeterS said:

i’ve often dreamt of being woken from my reverie by an handsome Prince (no luck so far) so, I think that there is room for a Sleeping Beauty that has a male dancer as Aurora. 

 

There could in theory be a male-male Sleeping Beauty (or Sleeping Handsome? With a new male name for the sleeping prince), or indeed a female-female one, but the choreography would have to be changed since it's been created for female-male physiques and training.

[zxDaveM]

1 hour ago, AnneMarriott said:

As a confirmed non-fan of this ballet, I must admit that melodrama is its most accurate description for me, almost regardless of cast.  I only saw the original cast on film and clearly the stage performance must have been more convincing.  Without wishing to offend anyone, I have always caught a whiff of silent cinema and I half expect a speech bubble, "Alas, I am undone", to appear at some point.

 

And please, if and when it comes back, let it not be as part of a triple bill, especially as the middle piece.

 

There is indeed a glut of 'back of the hand to the forehead' melodramatic moments - but that makes the very subtle ones all the more moving I find.

If there is a middle section I don't like (triple bill or 3-acter), I'll happily sit it out in the bar with my book, and not feel in the least bit hard done by 🙂

[Fonty]

1 hour ago, zxDaveM said:

If there is a middle section I don't like (triple bill or 3-acter), I'll happily sit it out in the bar with my book, and not feel in the least bit hard done by 🙂

 

There speaks someone who has obtained one of the cheaper seats or standing tickets?    You might feel differently if you've paid over £100 to see the performance.......

[San Perregrino]

1 hour ago, bridiem said:

 

There could in theory be a male-male Sleeping Beauty (or Sleeping Handsome? With a new male name for the sleeping prince), or indeed a female-female one, but the choreography would have to be changed since it's been created for female-male physiques and training.

 

yes perhaps some of the choreography might need adapting but not necessarily all of it. e.g. the recent casting of Tzu-Chao Chou as Amour and Laura Day as Sancho Panchez in BRB's Don Quixote shows that roles can be gender fluid.  i was fortunate enough to have seen Tzu-Chao Chou's pointe work in BRB's Black Sabbath and i'm pretty certain he could dance a Rose Adage if the opportunity arose.  

[capybara]

43 minutes ago, PeterS said:

 

yes perhaps some of the choreography might need adapting but not necessarily all of it. e.g. the recent casting of Tzu-Chao Chou as Amour and Laura Day as Sancho Panchez in BRB's Don Quixote shows that roles can be gender fluid.  i was fortunate enough to have seen Tzu-Chao Chou's pointe work in BRB's Black Sabbath and i'm pretty certain he could dance a Rose Adage if the opportunity arose.  

Yes - but those superbly performed roles are ‘free standing’.

 

I’m still finding it difficult to come to terms with an ‘anyone should be able to do it if they want to’ approach to casting (as distinct from certain dancers sitting out the odd role for which they are not so well-suited).

[maryrosesatonapin]

3 hours ago, PeterS said:

i’ve often dreamt of being woken from my reverie by an handsome Prince (no luck so far) so, I think that there is room for a Sleeping Beauty that has a male dancer as Aurora. 
 

I remember that at my first viewing of Matthew Bourne's all-male swan lake I expected to be horrified (the tickets were a gift) - not because of the maleness of it per se, but simply that Bourne would dare to tamper with such a masterpiece of a ballet.  Yet by the end I was as moved as I have ever been by a performance, and absolutely loved it. So yes, why not a male Aurora?

[San Perregrino]

25 minutes ago, capybara said:

I’m still finding it difficult to come to terms with an ‘anyone should be able to do it if they want to’ approach to casting (as distinct from certain dancers sitting out the odd role for which they are not so well-suited).

I think we’re on the same page here.

I come from an acting background and with actors you cast the person who is right for the part (both in technical skill and physical appearance) in the wider context of the production and its values (which admittedly these days can be whatever the imagination conjures). As such, I definitely wouldn’t cast a dancer who didn’t yet suit the role or indeed who no longer suited it at that stage of their career.

Edited November 27, 2023 by PeterS

[bridiem]

35 minutes ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

I remember that at my first viewing of Matthew Bourne's all-male swan lake I expected to be horrified (the tickets were a gift) - not because of the maleness of it per se, but simply that Bourne would dare to tamper with such a masterpiece of a ballet.  Yet by the end I was as moved as I have ever been by a performance, and absolutely loved it. So yes, why not a male Aurora?

 

Matthew Bourne completely rewrote the scenario of Swan Lake, re-choreographed and created a male swan character. He didn't create a male Odette.

Edited November 27, 2023 by bridiem

[Scheherezade]

34 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

Matthew Bourne completely rewrote the scenario of Swan Lake, re-choreographed and created a male swan character. He didn't create a male Odette.

Agreed. In that way, the integrity of the original work is not then lost. 

[Fonty]

I adore Bourne's Swan Lake.  Wonderfully moving.  Interesting though, that when he did the Sleeping Beauty, he didn't feel the need to alter the male and female roles.  I suppose there is room for an inventive choreographer to do a complete role reversal, and have Aurora seeking out her sleeping prince.  

 

However, I do not want to see male pointe work become a feature.  I think the ladies do that rather nicely, leave it them, and keep the men doing all those wonderful leaps and turns.